what is wrong with the Warpriest? (the prc that is)

[ngilop]

Hey guys, ive heard that the war priest is a pretty terrible PrC.

But looking at it, im not quite sure why most think that. I do think that mass heal should be popped down to 8th level and inflame also add to attack bonus instead of just saves.


Do you guys dislike this PrC just because it is only 1/2 casting?

For me that is not such a bad thing as I feel it supposed to be more Fighter/Cleric than Fighter/Cleric

If you understand what I mean by that.

Other than give full casting RAWR, what makes the Warpriest such a bad PrC for a more warrior than priest holy guy?

[Urpriest]

It's the half-casting. Half-casting doesn't help you make a Fighter/Cleric, because the spells you're getting still aren't level-appropriate. It works much better to pick up a class that's actually designed to use lower level spells to augment higher level combat, like Pious Templar or Divine Champion.

[jiriku]

It's the 1/2 spellcasting and it's the fact that most of the class features of the warpriest could be reproduced by a single-class cleric of equivalent level with appropriate domain choices. Frankly, I think you could do better by adding fighter 4/cleric +6 rather than by taking 10 levels of warpriest. At least then you'd qualify for Dungeon Crasher and have three bonus feats, which would open the door to you being able to potentially do something that a single-class cleric couldn't do. That's still worse than 10 levels of cleric IMO, but it would be a slight improvement.

[ngilop]

Hmm, so you think that maybe adding in ways to use turn undead to get cool buffs

like for instance spend 2 turn undeads and get DR X/- where X is your warpriest level for y time

spend 1 to get an extra attack on a full attack

etc etc.


I'm against full casting and full base attack bonus, That's something I will never, ever agree to.



Would adding in some other spells as Spell-likes be wise? like righteous might?

[Venger]

Hey guys, ive heard that the war priest is a pretty terrible PrC.

But looking at it, im not quite sure why most think that. I do think that mass heal should be popped down to 8th level and inflame also add to attack bonus instead of just saves.


Do you guys dislike this PrC just because it is only 1/2 casting?

For me that is not such a bad thing as I feel it supposed to be more Fighter/Cleric than Fighter/Cleric

If you understand what I mean by that.

Other than give full casting RAWR, what makes the Warpriest such a bad PrC for a more warrior than priest holy guy?
yes, it's because it's half casting. that's not a "just" though, that's a huge handicap.

fighter/cleric/warpriest or cleric/fighter/warpriest are both horrible builds regardless of which one is your primary class.

if you lean cleric, then you're ruining your ability to cast spells for no reason since fighter dips and warpriest offer you nothing aside from full BA, which you already have through divine power.

if you lean fighter, then you're crippling yourself by borking your BA through your cleric levels and becoming MAD with one of the few stats you don't already need, further fragmenting your point spread. through the painful prereq levels while you're grinding your way to warpriest, you'll be someone who is neither good at fightning, nor at casting spells, and once you actually enter the PC, things don't get any better.

[ComaVision]

I'm against full casting and full base attack bonus, That's something I will never, ever agree to.



It would be a much better PrC if it was full casting and partial base attack bonus.

[jiriku]

True. If it had full casting and some wide-area AoE buffs that couldn't be reproduced by spells, it could at least claim to be effective at leading troops on the battlefield. That's not exactly a useful niche for a PC in most games, but it would make a legitimate NPC class or villain class for certain kinds of set-piece battles.

[Extra Anchovies]

In addition to the half-casting, it's also the fact that clerics have access to full BAB anyways via divine power.

[Venger]

and it requires combat casting to get in. because if you're willing to set 5 caster levels on fire, you deserve to be punished.

[Extra Anchovies]

and it requires combat casting to get in. because if you're willing to set 5 caster levels on fire, you deserve to be punished.

On that note, I've never quite gotten what's so bad about that feat. Care to explain?

[ComaVision]

On that note, I've never quite gotten what's so bad about that feat. Care to explain?

It's just not good. If I get Toughness for free then great but it's not something I want to take.

[Venger]

On that note, I've never quite gotten what's so bad about that feat. Care to explain?

seriously? it's bad for the same reason feats like stealthy or deceitful are bad. it just provides a piddly numerical bonus to one very specific thing instead of granting you a new capability or letting you use something you already had in a different way like a good feat.

if you're the type of character who will be casting in combat a lot, say you're a gish, are playing at a handicap, or are a duskblade or something (who receive it for free anyway) then your concentration modifier is going to be maxed constantly until you can obviate the roll for your highest level spells with a bonus of maximum DC-1. after that point, you will probably stop investing because it is impossible to fail the check.

combat casting gives you a +4 to something that is not in any way a problem. that's not worth a feat slot you could be spending on metamagic

[ngilop]

My gripe abou combat casting is it gives you 4a +4 bonus to a specific type of concentration, when skill focus can give you +3 to all concentration.


If Combat casting had something special built into it or GASP! scaled it would e a worthwhile feat to take over skill focus: concentration.

that bing said 'feat taxes' to get into a PrC is something that to me is not bad you sould have to give up something to get something.

[Extra Anchovies]

My gripe abou combat casting is it gives you 4a +4 bonus to a specific type of concentration, when skill focus can give you +3 to all concentration.


If Combat casting had something special built into it or GASP! scaled it would e a worthwhile feat to take over skill focus: concentration.

that bing said 'feat taxes' to get into a PrC is something that to me is not bad you sould have to give up something to get something.

But you're already giving up casting (and lots of it), so the entry taxes are unnecessary.

[ngilop]

But you're already giving up casting (and lots of it), so the entry taxes are unnecessary.

I know, I did not mean specifically for this class but in general.

like having to grab endurance and die hard for a PrC called the Dreadnaught... Hmm I think I might make that an actual PrC... calling dibs now.

[ComaVision]

I know, I did not mean specifically for this class but in general.

like having to grab endurance and die hard for a PrC called the Dreadnaught... Hmm I think I might make that an actual PrC... calling dibs now.

What's in a name? That which we call a Warpriest by any other name would suck as bad.

[ngilop]

What's in a name? That which we call a Warpriest by any other name would suck as bad.

and there is always room for ice cream.. your point?

[ngilop]

I understand how anything is pure suck in the optimizing game if you are not full casting you are absoluey garbage..


but I for the life of me cannot figure out how losing 1 BaB makes you such a failure of a character than going full fighter?

especially when you consider the fact that you still get 6th level cleric casting ( which contrary to popular beleif nets you some decent spells like energy resistance shield of faith and such) and somehow that makes you such a terrible character that you need to rip up your sheet and just roll straight fighter?



and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

[Extra Anchovies]

I understand how anything is pure suck in the optimizing game if you are not full casting you are absoluey garbage..


but I for the life of me cannot figure out how losing 1 BaB makes you such a failure of a character than going full fighter?

especially when you consider the fact that you still get 6th level cleric casting ( which contrary to popular beleif nets you some decent spells like energy resistance shield of faith and such) and somehow that makes you such a terrible character that you need to rip up your sheet and just roll straight fighter?

and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

1. Nobody's said ten levels of warpriest is worse than ten levels of fighter.
2. There is no reason to play a fighter/cleric. Even without Divine Power, Cleric 20 is better at fighting than Cleric x/Fighter y for any values of x and y totaling 20.

Warpriest is bad because it's redundant.

[ngilop]

1. Nobody's said ten levels of warpriest is worse than ten levels of fighter.
2. There is no reason to play a fighter/cleric. Even without Divine Power, Cleric 20 is better at fighting than Cleric x/Fighter y for any values of x and y totaling 20.

Warpriest is bad because it's redundant.

SO why even play anything but wizard, druid, or cleric then?

I mean warpriest has full BaB d10 HP and all armor shield and weapon prof. that cries out to me warrior not priest.

and I know that full casting and having 9th Trumps everything.

Im not looking at this and saying what can make cleric 10 warpriest 10 good.

im asking what can make fighter 7 cleric 3 warpriest 10 decent.



Im not asking form a 'tier' one optimizing stance, Im asking form a 'normal' WoTC expected table where most peeps play in the 'tier'4 to 'tier' 3 range. where you are not trying to 'best-est' your character but make a competent one and just have fun with your friends.

[Extra Anchovies]

SO why even play anything but wizard, druid, or cleric then?

I mean warpriest has full BaB d10 HP and all armor shield and weapon prof. that cries out to me warrior not priest.

and I know that full casting and having 9th Trumps everything.

Im not looking at this and saying what can make cleric 10 warpriest 10 good.

im asking what can make fighter 7 cleric 3 warpriest 10 decent.

Cleric 10/Warpriest 10 is playable, but it doesn't to anything Cleric 20 can't so Cleric 20 is a better option for "fighty priesty dude" than Cleric 10/Warpriest 10. Same goes for Fighter 7/Cleric 3/Warpriest 10; they can't do anything that even Cleric 10/Warpriest 10 can, except take Weapon Specialization (yuck). The best way to make Fighter 7/Cleric 3/Warpriest 10 decent is to replace the Fighter levels with Cleric levels. If you want a mid-power fighty priesty dude, Cleric/Warpriest can work, but you'd be better of playing Cleric 20, avoiding DMM, and not picking OP spells, because it's easier to make a strong option weaker than it is to make a weak option stronger. When you get to the point that your highest-level slots are entirely OP spells or worthless spells, fill those slots with Extended or Chained versions of your lower-level spells.


Im not asking from a 'tier' one optimizing stance, Im asking form a 'normal' WoTC expected table where most peeps play in the 'tier'4 to 'tier' 3 range. where you are not trying to 'best-est' your character but make a competent one and just have fun with your friends.

The "WotC expected table" was in no way T3-T4; it's Wizard/Cleric/Rogue/Fighter. That's two T1s, a T4, and a T5. If you're aiming for T3 you shouldn't have clerics (replace them with backports of Inquisitor or Warpriest from PF) or they should tone themselves down by avoiding the OP spells and build options.

[Divayth Fyr]

I mean warpriest has full BaB d10 HP and all armor shield and weapon prof. that cries out to me warrior not priest.
And which Warpriest features (aside from Haste gotten at lvl 7) make you a better warrior? Most of them are for helping your allies - which could be done better with spells - and BaB/HD could come from Fighter and be the same (or from a Barbarian for better HD).

[Venger]

I understand how anything is pure suck in the optimizing game if you are not full casting you are absoluey garbage..

but I for the life of me cannot figure out how losing 1 BaB makes you such a failure of a character than going full fighter?

especially when you consider the fact that you still get 6th level cleric casting ( which contrary to popular beleif nets you some decent spells like energy resistance shield of faith and such) and somehow that makes you such a terrible character that you need to rip up your sheet and just roll straight fighter?

and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

so if we don't all play multiclassed to hell fighter/clerics with toughness for every feat then we are just lousy rollplayers. this is known as the stormwind fallacy.

if your goal is to be a melee brute, good for you. your goal is full BA the same way a caster's is full caster level. retarding that delays when you get your iteratives and makes you worse at what you're trying to do.

no one has ever said 6th level cleric casting is not good. it's just not as good as higher level cleric casting.

no one told you to roll straight fighter. contrary to wotc's belief, fighter10/cleric10 is not as good as cleric 20

you can't, because fighter/cleric is not viable. it gives the cleric nothing it doesn't already have. the problem is not with warpriest, it's with mixing disparate classes that do not complement each other.

[Extra Anchovies]

you can't, because fighter/cleric is not viable. it gives the cleric nothing it doesn't already have. the problem is not with warpriest, it's with mixing disparate classes that do not complement each other.

Those classes being, of course, 3.5 Fighter and literally any other PC class. :smalltongue:

[ngilop]

so if we don't all play multiclassed to hell fighter/clerics with toughness for every feat then we are just lousy rollplayers. this is known as the stormwind fallacy.

if your goal is to be a melee brute, good for you. your goal is full BA the same way a caster's is full caster level. retarding that delays when you get your iteratives and makes you worse at what you're trying to do.

no one has ever said 6th level cleric casting is not good. it's just not as good as higher level cleric casting.

no one told you to roll straight fighter. contrary to wotc's belief, fighter10/cleric10 is not as good as cleric 20

you can't, because fighter/cleric is not viable. it gives the cleric nothing it doesn't already have. the problem is not with warpriest, it's with mixing disparate classes that do not complement each other.

Bolded part bolded and enlarged because At no single point at all anywhere in this whole thread or any of my post at any time in the history of my existence on the internet have I ever EVER said that playing an optimized character makes one a horrible roleplayer ( or as you put it rollplayers)

In fact, I find it EXTREMELY rude and insulting that you are even insinuating that I suggested as much.

[ngilop]

and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

this is really my main point. Im not going to but on getting a 'gish' divine character full casrting and full base attack. it is just something that I will never agree with.

and you can stop hammering me to death over the head about nothing beats full (insert random full teir 1/2 caster here) everybody in the world already at least assumes if not outright knows that.

that is not what I am looking for the old GiTP ' just play a wizar/cleric' that is ever so popular.


what I want is what can I do with or what kind of abilities could I add that would better hybridize the two disparate classes ( i.e fighter & cleric)


side note.. did you know & used to be a letter?

[Extra Anchovies]

Bolded part bolded and enlarged because At no single point at all anywhere in this whole thread or any of my post at any time in the history of my existence on the internet have I ever EVER said that playing an optimized character makes one a horrible roleplayer ( or as you put it rollplayers)

In fact, I find it EXTREMELY rude and insulting that you are even insinuating that I suggested as much.

Yo, the big text is unnecessary. Let's keep this civil.

You asked what was wrong with fighter/cleric, we told you cleric/nothing was better in every way, you clearly weren't satisfied with the answer, so Venger (from how I see it) assumed you thought that choosing the strongest option meant a player didn't intend to roleplay effectively.
Also "rollplayers" was pretty clearly a spelling error.
Anyways, to get back on topic, the answer to your question

SO why even play anything but wizard, druid, or cleric then?
Is "because none of those classes can emulate the character concept I have in mind as effectively as I would like my build to". Sometimes you can better carry out what you want to do with your character through a less theoretically powerful class, e.g. Binder, Totemist, Dragonfire Adept, etc.


and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

You can't. I told you already, I told you again, there is nothing that can make fighter/cleric an attractive option because cleric/nothing is better in every way. The only things fighter grants are HD (you'll average 1 point per level more than cleric, but cleric can cast Bear's Endurance), proficiencies (mostly overlapping with the cleric's), and bonus feats (but there aren't enough of them and they aren't good enough to go past a 2-level dip).

[HaikenEdge]

SO why even play anything but wizard, druid, or cleric then?

Because the archetypical hero is a not-so-smart guy with a sharp stick? Because sometimes, wizard, druid and cleric just don't fit your character concept?

[Karl Aegis]

Because the archetypical hero is a not-so-smart guy with a sharp stick? Because sometimes, wizard, druid and cleric just don't fit your character concept?

Man, the shapeshifting peg will fit more square holes and round holes than either the round peg or the square peg.

[Invader]

I always thought ordained champion made a much better war priest than war priest. Sure you give up two caster levels but you get reasonable compensation and it compliments a more melee centric cleric very well.

[ngilop]

Yo, the big text is unnecessary. Let's keep this civil.

You asked what was wrong with fighter/cleric, we told you cleric/nothing was better in every way, you clearly weren't satisfied with the answer, so Venger (from how I see it) assumed you thought that choosing the strongest option meant a player didn't intend to roleplay effectively.
Also "rollplayers" was pretty clearly a spelling error.
Anyways, to get back on topic, the answer to your question

Is "because none of those classes can emulate the character concept I have in mind as effectively as I would like my build to". Sometimes you can better carry out what you want to do with your character through a less theoretically powerful class, e.g. Binder, Totemist, Dragonfire Adept, etc.



You can't. I told you already, I told you again, there is nothing that can make fighter/cleric an attractive option because cleric/nothing is better in every way. The only things fighter grants are HD (you'll average 1 point per level more than cleric, but cleric can cast Bear's Endurance), proficiencies (mostly overlapping with the cleric's), and bonus feats (but there aren't enough of them and they aren't good enough to go past a 2-level dip).

why can there be an arcane fighter/wizard that is actually pretty decent in the Abjurant champion?

Or that other hybrid PrC im forgetting off the top of my head right now.

but there cannot be any way to hybridize a cleric and a fighter?

the spell argument makes no sense to me cuz a wizard can cast pretty much the same type if not the same spells to begin with.


WHy can arcane have a hybrid but divine is not allowed?

[ComaVision]

As long as we're talking about melee Clerics, I really do like Ruby Knight Vindicator.

EDIT: Also, Abjurant Champion has that gross full casting and BaB thing you hate. I believe book says something about you being able to make a Divine variant of the same class. There is no point to Hybridize Cleric/Fighter because Cleric is one spell away from full BaB. It's a better fighter than the fighter class. That's what people are saying.

[HaikenEdge]

why can there be an arcane fighter/wizard that is actually pretty decent in the Abjurant champion?

Because a Fighter 1/Wizard 10/Abjurant Champion 5 loses practically nothing, whereas a Warpriest anything sacrifices half the Cleric's ability to be a cleric.

[Extra Anchovies]

why can there be an arcane fighter/wizard that is actually pretty decent in the Abjurant champion?

AbjChamp isn't a Fighter/Wizard hybrid. It's a casting class with full BAB. Those aren't the same thing. If you want to be able to fight, do not play a Fighter.


WHy can arcane have a hybrid but divine is not allowed?

It's not that they aren't allowed. It's that divine spellcasters don't need a hybrid. Druids gish fine via Wild Shape, and Clerics gish fine via buffs. Anything that requires a divine caster to give up caster levels makes them worse at gishing.

If you want full BAB and better casting than Warpriest, take a look at Knight of the Raven and the aforementioned Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Grod_The_Giant]

and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid
For a start, you could increase it to 7/10 or 8/10 casting. I personally like 8/10: it puts you a spell level behind, which is a significant enough cost that you can grant decent abilities in exchange.

As for class abilities...

Rally should probably scale, become a swift action, become a passive aura, or some combination thereof.
Inflame would be better as an aura, or at the very least a faster activation.
The 1/day abilities could be boosted to, say, Cha mod/day
Implacable Foe is crapsauce. Too weak an effect, too large an action. It needs to be totally rewritten. Maybe expend a Turn attempt as an immediate to heal everyone nearby? Expend a turn to cast delay death on everyone nearby? Delay Death as an immediate when someone drops?

[Telok]

Ok, let's start with the prerequsites.

Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks , Sense Motive 5 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting
Spells: Able to cast at least one divine spell from one of the following domains’ spell lists: Destruction, Protection, Strength, or War. A character who can cast at least one spell from a domain counts as having access for this purpose.
Special: Ability to turn or rebuke undead.

Bab: cleric 7, fighter 4 + cleric 2, cleric 4 + fighter 2, paladin 5

Skills: Paladin has Diplo and SM as class skills, cleric has Diplo but not SM, Fighter has nothing. Since you're a caster in combat you need Concentration so we need a 12 Int or human as a minimum. Level 5 for in class Diplo, level 6 for cross class SM.

Feat: pay a tax sucker.

Spells: cast any of : Inflict Light Wounds, Shatter, Contagion, Inflict Critical Wounds, Sanctuary, Shield Other, Protection from Energy, Spell Immunity, Enlarge Person, Bull’s Strength, Magic Vestment, Spell Immunity, Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Divine Power (Paladins get Magic Weapon) This isn't even a requirement as all clerics and 4+ paladins qualify automatically.

Turning: Cleric and paladin auto-qualify. Favored Souls need not apply.

What do you get?
HD & Bab of a fighter, you already had that via class or a spell.
1/2 spell casting and no base class features, no domain power increases or lay on hands improvements.
A bonus domain, useless to paladins (no domain spell slots) and duplicating normal cleric spells with a domain power that barely buffs turning (+2 hd yay!).
A standard action ability to give allies a reroll vs. fear at +1, but you can cast Remove Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeFear.htm) or are immune. Pus a lower level bard can do this better.
Another effect against fear that's a pre-fight buff, but it's a morale bonus so it can't stack. Again, bard.
Mass Cure Lightly Stubbed Toes once a day, like 1d8+10 vs how many HPs at 10th level?
A once a day fear aura, congratulations you can scare minions who fail a save and aren't already immune.
Hero's Feast once a day SLA, now this is decent. It's half-a-hit of temp hp plus immunity to disease, fear, and poison for half the day. Oh, did you just negate two of your class abilities that you took this PrC to get? Oops.
Haste SLA 3/day, this is good too. Saves you from having to buy Boots of Speed or quaff a potion at 12th or 14th level.
Mass Heal, this is never bad especially as a SLA at 14th or 16th level, it's just a pity that you had to lose divine caster levels to get it. Plus, as a cleric, you'd get it next level, at a higher caster level, more times a day if you wanted it. Of course then you could prepare Miracle too, your choice.
The capstone for this class is to let allies within 100 feet ignore the effects of being reduced to 0 through -19 hp for as long as the Warpriest concentrates. So as long as you surrender all your standard actions and make every concentration check your friends can take up to 19 more points of damage before dying. At level 15 or 17. Magic Missile has been doing 9 - 25 damage since level 9, so you guys can suck down another 1st level spell or two before dying.

You want to improve this? Want it to be a fighter/cleric that matters? First this is to give it a fighter bonus feat every odd level and turn that Combat Casting requirement into Weapon Focus, congratulations you're a fighter now. Second, you start replacing those class features. Hero's Feast, Mass Heal, and Haste can stay, we like those. You need something for levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, and 10. Those will be at (taking the average between paladin and cleric entry because fighter is stupid unless you need bonus feats for some special trick) character levels 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, and 16. So let's say 5 SLAs, two from level 3 or 4 spells, 2 from level 4 or 5 spells, one from level 7 or 8 spells, and one from level 9 spells.
Let's start with Prayer as the first SLA, three a day. Death Ward, twice a day. Righteous Might, once a day. Summon Monster 5, archon or devil only as alignment dictates, once a day. Heal/Harm twice a day, you've lost two real spell levels, 4 caster levels, and possibly a smite by now. Top it off with Storm of Vengance, daily, 3/day, at-will, it doesn't matter since you'll never cast real cleric 9ths or your paladin abilities are screwed by now (mount, LoH, smite, all at 5th level power).

[ZeroSpace9000]

In response to your inquiry, ngilop, theres a few things I can think of. First, as mentioned, is the Divine Power spell. For one 4th level spell, the cleric can now fight just as well as the fighter can, excepting of course the fighters feats. One spell, and with smart feat choices the cleric can fight just as well as a fighter, and still do other things.

Second, there's the fact that Wizard/Fighter need Strength, Dex, Con, and Intelligence. Four good attributes is rough, but doable. Cleric/Fighter, meanwhile, needs Str, Dex, Con, Wis, and some Cha, with a little Int helping matters more. That's 6 attributes needed, which is much more difficult to manage.

Third, Abjurant Champion is well known for being a very good gish PrC. It's 5 levels long, gives both full casting and BAB, as well useful class abilities, like auto-extending and auto-quickening abjuration spells, powering up Shield, and some extra fringe benefits. Meanwhile, Warpriest alternates between class levels advancing cleric casting, and giving some modest Spell-like Abilities that could be replicated with cleric casting. About the only unique thing Warpriest does for combat clerics is giving access to Haste effects. While nice, Haste is only a 3rd level spell. Not exactly inspiring. Everything else the Warpriest offers could be attained just as well by a single-class cleric.

[ComaVision]

About the only unique thing Warpriest does for combat clerics is giving access to Haste effects. While nice, Haste is only a 3rd level spell. Not exactly inspiring. Everything else the Warpriest offers could be attained just as well by a single-class cleric.

Clerics can get Haste via domains.

Also, since a Cleric has buff spells, it's not very MAD. Wis and Con works fine.

[ngilop]

AbjChamp isn't a Fighter/Wizard hybrid. It's a casting class with full BAB. Those aren't the same thing. If you want to be able to fight, do not play a Fighter.



It's not that they aren't allowed. It's that divine spellcasters don't need a hybrid. Druids gish fine via Wild Shape, and Clerics gish fine via buffs. Anything that requires a divine caster to give up caster levels makes them worse at gishing.

If you want full BAB and better casting than Warpriest, take a look at Knight of the Raven and the aforementioned Ruby Knight Vindicator.

what I would like to see form the War priest is more of a fighter with minor spells that support the in the thick of things combat style. sort of like a paladin but without the oath and the everything that comes with that.
off the top of my head I am thinking of making the feats me weapon focus + weapon specialization for deity favored weapon. While making the BaB req only +4 so that you could run start Warpriest at 5th level ( BAB +4 and 1st level spell from X domains) and am thinking what could I include to make doing that an attractive option rather than hav everybody go full tippyTM on everything.

Im not looking at how powerful once can get but what interesting optional abilies one could glean from eing a war priest. Im thinking being able to divine favor as a swift action once an encounter and maybe bmping down implacable foe to 9th level knock down mass heal to 8th level and ad a much more intersteing capstone.


maybe srpinkel something like blessing or some scuh ( just tossing out a generic name) where the warpriest gains pretty interesting abilities that benefit him and/or a group ( depending on the individual blessing)

[ngilop]

For a start, you could increase it to 7/10 or 8/10 casting. I personally like 8/10: it puts you a spell level behind, which is a significant enough cost that you can grant decent abilities in exchange.

As for class abilities...

Rally should probably scale, become a swift action, become a passive aura, or some combination thereof.
Inflame would be better as an aura, or at the very least a faster activation.
The 1/day abilities could be boosted to, say, Cha mod/day
Implacable Foe is crapsauce. Too weak an effect, too large an action. It needs to be totally rewritten. Maybe expend a Turn attempt as an immediate to heal everyone nearby? Expend a turn to cast delay death on everyone nearby? Delay Death as an immediate when someone drops?


BOlded for emphasis on AWESOME IDEA!!!

I LOVE THAT IDEA!!! that's why you are one of my fave homebrewers. Im think bumping it down to 9th level and making cost 1 turn/command attempt plus 1 per target affecting, but lasting 2 rounds per warpriest level +cha rounds. So its like a last hurrah kinda of thing, and hopefully you can get a cure minor wounds off when the fight is over and before the time is up.

[ComaVision]

BOlded for emphasis on AWESOME IDEA!!!

I LOVE THAT IDEA!!! that's why you are one of my fave homebrewers. Im think bumping it down to 9th level and making cost 1 turn/command attempt plus 1 per target affecting, but lasting 2 rounds per warpriest level +cha rounds. So its like a last hurrah kinda of thing, and hopefully you can get a cure minor wounds off when the fight is over and before the time is up.

Again, if all you offer in the PrC is Cleric stuff that a straight class Cleric would get faster than the PrC then no sane person would take it.

[ngilop]

Again, if all you offer in the PrC is Cleric stuff that a straight class Cleric would get faster than the PrC then no sane person would take it.



idk giving everybody in a 100 foot radius delay death for [warprist (2)] +cha rounds is not something a cleric can do at an early level.

[ComaVision]

idk giving everybody in a 100 foot radius delay death for [warprist (2)] +cha rounds is not something a cleric can do at an early level.

You're proposing having at at the 9th level of the PrC, so ECL 14. A Cleric 14 could have at least 4 Delay Death available, plus if your entire party needs simultaneous Delay Death then you're going to be screwed anyway.

[HaikenEdge]

idk giving everybody in a 100 foot radius delay death for [warprist (2)] +cha rounds is not something a cleric can do at an early level.

By the time that comes online (assuming fastest entry, so 4 levels fighter, 2 levels cleric, plus 10 levels Warpriest, or total character level of 16), anything that is killing you via hit point damage should be doing so much damage that a fatal attack will take you past -20 anyways, and that's not counting enemies who take you out without even touching your hit points.

[Nihilarian]

what I would like to see form the War priest is more of a fighter with minor spells that support the in the thick of things combat style. sort of like a paladin but without the oath and the everything that comes with that.
off the top of my head I am thinking of making the feats me weapon focus + weapon specialization for deity favored weapon. While making the BaB req only +4 so that you could run start Warpriest at 5th level ( BAB +4 and 1st level spell from X domains) and am thinking what could I include to make doing that an attractive option rather than hav everybody go full tippyTM on everything.

Im not looking at how powerful once can get but what interesting optional abilies one could glean from eing a war priest. Im thinking being able to divine favor as a swift action once an encounter and maybe bmping down implacable foe to 9th level knock down mass heal to 8th level and ad a much more intersteing capstone.


maybe srpinkel something like blessing or some scuh ( just tossing out a generic name) where the warpriest gains pretty interesting abilities that benefit him and/or a group ( depending on the individual blessing)just backport the Warpriest from Pathfinder.

[ngilop]

just backport the Warpriest from Pathfinder.

that's pretty smart :)

I like those blessings now I have to think of a new name

Im going to separate them from domains though and just let the warpriest have a couple.

also HaikenEdge delay death prevents death due to HP damage (barring disintegrate and such) not just to -20.

[Karl Aegis]

I feel like the class is probably something Paizo thought up for Dragon Magazine and hastily threw it together just to meet their page quota. It shares some similarities with the Battlepriest of Cormyr from Dragon #307, except it isn't 3/5 casting, doesn't have a good will save and made the requirements worse so they could stretch the class out over 10 levels without giving the class level relevant abilities at the higher levels. Who knows why Paizo decided to keep churning out these kinds of classes, but they keep making it into the official books.

[Venger]

and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

this is really my main point. Im not going to but on getting a 'gish' divine character full casrting and full base attack. it is just something that I will never agree with.

and you can stop hammering me to death over the head about nothing beats full (insert random full teir 1/2 caster here) everybody in the world already at least assumes if not outright knows that.

that is not what I am looking for the old GiTP ' just play a wizar/cleric' that is ever so popular.


what I want is what can I do with or what kind of abilities could I add that would better hybridize the two disparate classes ( i.e fighter & cleric)

You cannot. No class features will make losing 5 levels of your primary class feature a good trade.

No one is telling you what to play, so you can stop using "just play a tier 1" as a strawman to argue against.

we're saying if you want to do well as a caster gish that fighter levels are not helping you. you could replicate their effects through heroics via anyspell through the spell domain or a number of other ways.


Bolded part bolded and enlarged because At no single point at all anywhere in this whole thread or any of my post at any time in the history of my existence on the internet have I ever EVER said that playing an optimized character makes one a horrible roleplayer ( or as you put it rollplayers)

In fact, I find it EXTREMELY rude and insulting that you are even insinuating that I suggested as much.

You said:

I understand how anything is pure suck in the optimizing game if you are not full casting you are absoluey garbage..

but I for the life of me cannot figure out how losing 1 BaB makes you such a failure of a character than going full fighter?

especially when you consider the fact that you still get 6th level cleric casting ( which contrary to popular beleif nets you some decent spells like energy resistance shield of faith and such) and somehow that makes you such a terrible character that you need to rip up your sheet and just roll straight fighter?

and besides slapping on full casting, how can youmake the class abilities worhthwile to make it a decently attractive PrC for a fighter/cleric hybrid

Again, rather than argue with the advice we're actually giving you, you refute the idea that "if you're not a full caster you're garbage," which no one ever said.

no one said "if you don't roll a T1 full caster rip up your sheet and roll fighter." again, that's all you

no one can make a "fighter/cleric" a viable concept because it's not a viable concept. fighter takes away casting and gives you nothing in return. it's a 2 level class for a reason.

and you can stop condescendingly implying that "rollplayer" was a typo. it's what stormwinders call people who dare to try to be good at the game.


why can there be an arcane fighter/wizard that is actually pretty decent in the Abjurant champion?

Or that other hybrid PrC im forgetting off the top of my head right now.

but there cannot be any way to hybridize a cleric and a fighter?

the spell argument makes no sense to me cuz a wizard can cast pretty much the same type if not the same spells to begin with.

WHy can arcane have a hybrid but divine is not allowed?

abjchamp doesn't require fighter levels.

there's a lot of other gish classes for arcane. since you love half-casting so much, possibly it was spellsword? that's a popular class to patch in for a level after abjchamp.

there's plenty of ways to be a divine gish, they just mostly don't necessitate prcs since druid/cleric are already good in melee. that's why they don't need to dip fighter.

it's not an argument. like these other things, it's not something anyone's said, so I'm not sure where you're getting it from.


that's pretty smart :)

I like those blessings now I have to think of a new name

Im going to separate them from domains though and just let the warpriest have a couple.

also HaikenEdge delay death prevents death due to HP damage (barring disintegrate and such) not just to -20.


The "WotC expected table" was in no way T3-T4; it's Wizard/Cleric/Rogue/Fighter. That's two T1s, a T4, and a T5. If you're aiming for T3 you shouldn't have clerics (replace them with backports of Inquisitor or Warpriest from PF) or they should tone themselves down by avoiding the OP spells and build options.
(emphasis mine)

Extra Anchovies said this already.

[Marlowe]

No one is telling you what to play, so you can stop using "just play a tier 1" as a strawman to argue against.

no one said "if you don't roll a T1 full caster rip up your sheet and roll fighter." again, that's all you

Not to mention that this sort of argument was especially ludicrous given that we're talking about a PrC that all but expressly makes you take Tier 1 full caster levels to begin with.

[Extra Anchovies]

I feel like the class is probably something Paizo thought up for Dragon Magazine and hastily threw it together just to meet their page quota. It shares some similarities with the Battlepriest of Cormyr from Dragon #307, except it isn't 3/5 casting, doesn't have a good will save and made the requirements worse so they could stretch the class out over 10 levels without giving the class level relevant abilities at the higher levels. Who knows why Paizo decided to keep churning out these kinds of classes, but they keep making it into the official books.

Warpriest (3.5) was DragMag? I thought it first showed up in Defenders of the Faith and was reprinted in Complete Divine.

[Nihilarian]

Prestige classes that only advance your casting by half are almost always worthless unless you got your casting from a prestige class and it doesn't go beyond 10 anyway. Even then it's dubious at best.

[Venger]

Not to mention that this sort of argument was especially ludicrous given that we're talking about a PrC that all but expressly makes you take Tier 1 full caster levels to begin with.

I know, right?


Warpriest (3.5) was DragMag? I thought it first showed up in Defenders of the Faith and was reprinted in Complete Divine.

that's correct. almost all prestige classes were first printed in dragon magazine (though obviously they went through some changes first)


Prestige classes that only advance your casting by half are almost always worthless unless you got your casting from a prestige class and it doesn't go beyond 10 anyway. Even then it's dubious at best.

yyyyyeah. if you're getting unique casting from assassin or fatemaker or what have yo, you're probably at least partially in it for class features and stuff, so it doesn't make sense to leave early to progress it in a different, halfcasting prc.

it's a strategy I like a lot in iron chef, but I'd never approach it in anything but the lowest-OP of games.

[Telok]

You cannot. No class features will make losing 5 levels of your primary class feature a good trade.

At will (Su) Heal and Harm? If you don't expect to go past 16th or 17th level in that game...

I mean, yeah, casting is really good but some days it's not all that you're looking for in a character.

[Venger]

At will (Su) Heal and Harm? If you don't expect to go past 16th or 17th level in that game...

I mean, yeah, casting is really good but some days it's not all that you're looking for in a character.

no one ever said anything about that. you said at will storm of vengeance (as a sla, not a su) not heal. even if you had, the answer would still be no.

harm is trash. sr yes, touch, willhalf, and it can't kill. plus it's necro, so large swatsh of enemies are immune. in-combat healing's a sucker's game but more importantly, a cleric can already cast harm and heal.

giving a caster crappy SLAs instead of class features is not going to make people want to take it. this i how we get zillions of classes no one uses, like stonelord.

[Karl Aegis]

At will (Su) Heal and Harm? If you don't expect to go past 16th or 17th level in that game...

I mean, yeah, casting is really good but some days it's not all that you're looking for in a character.

If you have to use that kind of ability more than three times per day you've lost too many caster levels.

[archonkain]

What about?:

entry requirements: same
weap/armor prof: same
3/4 BAB
good fort, will
poor refex

+1 divine caster level at 1,3,4,6,7,9,10
+1 bonus fighter feat at 1,4,7,10
Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon) as a bonus feat at level 2, if the warpriest already has that specific weapon focus, they get weapon specialization (deity's favored weapon) instead even if they do not meet the requirements. If they already have that specific weapon focus, they do not gain the bonus feat.

bonus domain: keep as is
turn/rebuke: keep as is

Rally: Lvl1-as is, lvl4 move action, lvl 7 swift action

Inflame: rework it to: full round action, duration 5 minutes + 1 minute per warpriest level, affect a number of friendly targets equal to warpriest level, grant each target up to a number of feats on the fighter bonus feat list up to half the warpriest's class level (round up) that the warpriest possesses (with the exact same options the warpriest has chosen)*. (1 feat shared at first, 2 at third, 3 at fifth, 4 at seventh, 5 at ninth)

*this means if the warpriest has weapon focus (morningstar) then anyone they share weapons focus with also gets weapon focus (morningstar), not weapons focus (whatever the target prefers).

Haste: replace this with a 1/day mass version.

Mass cure/hero's feast/mass heal: sure keep em

Fear Aura: meh, sure? keep it

Implacable Foe: Replace with Implacable Foes: Once per day a warpriest can channel positive or negative energy to bolster a number of allies equal to their warpriest level (10). It takes a standard action to activate and only a move action to maintain, but the warpriest must spend an turn/rebuke undead attempt for each additional round the aura is maintained. This aura has a range of 100' from the warpriest and if a target leaves the range of the aura immediately loses all benefits and does not regain them if they reenter the aura's range. While under the effects of this aura the warpriest's allies (but not the warpriest) cannot die from HP loss. Additionally, for each round after the first that the warpriest maintains the aura, all targets (again allies, but not the warpriest) gain a sacred (turn undead) or profane (rebuke undead) bonus to all their saving throws and AC equal to the number of turn attempts the warpriest has spent maintaining this effect. If the warpriest ends their turn without spending a turn attempt or action to continue this aura, all effects of this aura end immediately (and all allies that are in negative HP immediately suffer the negative effects of their current HP totals)

[Crake]

harm is trash. sr yes, touch, willhalf, and it can't kill. plus it's necro, so large swatsh of enemies are immune. in-combat healing's a sucker's game but more importantly, a cleric can already cast harm and heal.

3.5 harm can kill people if they fail the save. It's pathfinder where harm cannot bring a creature below 1 regardless, in 3.5 that limitation only applies if the creature passes the save.

[Karl Aegis]

What about?:

entry requirements: same
weap/armor prof: same
3/4 BAB
good fort, will
poor refex

+1 divine caster level at 1,3,4,6,7,9,10
+1 bonus fighter feat at 1,4,7,10
Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon) as a bonus feat at level 2, if the warpriest already has that specific weapon focus, they get weapon specialization (deity's favored weapon) instead even if they do not meet the requirements. If they already have that specific weapon focus, they do not gain the bonus feat.

bonus domain: keep as is
turn/rebuke: keep as is

Rally: Lvl1-as is, lvl4 move action, lvl 7 swift action

Inflame: rework it to: full round action, duration 5 minutes + 1 minute per warpriest level, affect a number of friendly targets equal to warpriest level, grant each target up to a number of feats on the fighter bonus feat list up to half the warpriest's class level (round up) that the warpriest possesses (with the exact same options the warpriest has chosen)*. (1 feat shared at first, 2 at third, 3 at fifth, 4 at seventh, 5 at ninth)

*this means if the warpriest has weapon focus (morningstar) then anyone they share weapons focus with also gets weapon focus (morningstar), not weapons focus (whatever the target prefers).

Haste: replace this with a 1/day mass version.

Mass cure/hero's feast/mass heal: sure keep em

Fear Aura: meh, sure? keep it

Implacable Foe: Replace with Implacable Foes: Once per day a warpriest can channel positive or negative energy to bolster a number of allies equal to their warpriest level (10). It takes a standard action to activate and only a move action to maintain, but the warpriest must spend an turn/rebuke undead attempt for each additional round the aura is maintained. This aura has a range of 100' from the warpriest and if a target leaves the range of the aura immediately loses all benefits and does not regain them if they reenter the aura's range. While under the effects of this aura the warpriest's allies (but not the warpriest) cannot die from HP loss. Additionally, for each round after the first that the warpriest maintains the aura, all targets (again allies, but not the warpriest) gain a sacred (turn undead) or profane (rebuke undead) bonus to all their saving throws and AC equal to the number of turn attempts the warpriest has spent maintaining this effect. If the warpriest ends their turn without spending a turn attempt or action to continue this aura, all effects of this aura end immediately (and all allies that are in negative HP immediately suffer the negative effects of their current HP totals)

Notice how the warpriest gets only fear aura at level 5? Might as well be a dead level, but it doesn't at least get a point of BAB like the fighter normally does. Fifth level abilities have to be amazing because saves don't progress at level 5. Ditto for level 9.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ngilop, have you ever looked at crusader 1/cleric 4/ordained champion 5/ruby knight vindicator 7? At level 17, you have lost the same 5 caster levels as a cleric 7/war-priest 10 build, but now you have maneuvers (IL 12.5 or 15, depending on interpretation), great class features to complement your gishing (channelling spells, swift spontaneous War domain spells, turn undead fuels smiting and extra swift actions), and you're a point of base attack ahead, as well (two if that's a cloistered cleric) - not that it matters, because divine power is a War domain spell.

[Troacctid]

Better prestige classes for the same purpose:


Fist of Raziel: Full BAB, but with 9/10 divine casting instead of 5/10, and better class features.
Ordained Champion: Full BAB, 3/5 casting, and the class features kick major ass.
Ruby Knight Vindicator: Full BAB, 8/10 casting, and you get maneuvers and stances to make you better at fighting.
Sacred Fist: Full BAB, full or 8/10 casting (talk to your DM about the text/table conflict), and progresses Monk class features.
Sapphire Hierarch: Half BAB, but full meldshaping progression, which gives you a ton of always-on combat bonuses. (You can divine power back to full BAB.)

[ace rooster]

Consider the 'regular' cleric. 3/4 BAB, d8HD, good fort save, heavy armour and shield prof, good selection of buffs, possibly free weapon focus. It is a 'war' priest already. If your game only uses cloistered cleric then war priest looks considerably better, but as is it's niche is already filled by regular cleric or paladin.

[Rebel7284]

After thinking about this for a bit, there is one build that can totally benefit from a Warpriest dip.

Consider:

Duskblade 3/X 2/Ur Priest 2/Y 8/Warpriest 1/Z 5

You end up getting access to an extra domain, get +1 BAB, save a feat on qualifying, and can deliver touch spells such as Harm with spell channeling.

[Psyren]

It's the half-casting. Half-casting doesn't help you make a Fighter/Cleric, because the spells you're getting still aren't level-appropriate. It works much better to pick up a class that's actually designed to use lower level spells to augment higher level combat, like Pious Templar or Divine Champion.

On top of that, half-casting is doubly pointless because they're basically saying you might as well alternate Fighter and Cleric levels for the same result, without needing dumb prereqs.


On that note, I've never quite gotten what's so bad about that feat. Care to explain?

It's almost strictly worse than Skill Focus Concentration, which is itself not a great feat.

In PF it's a bit more useful, since (a) Concentration is a CL check over there and thus harder to boost than a skill check, and (b) it's generally harder to do.

[Warrnan]

Here's my recommendation to you if you really want to add fighter and cleric together.

Fighter2/cleric3/church inquisitor1/ordained champion5/prestige paladin1 /fist of raziel 8

This is a hero who has more smites per day than a paladin. Detect evil. 4 fighter feats. Swift action war domain and paladin spells thru battle blessing and ordained champion. 19 base attack and CL16. You can also channel touch spells into your weapon and smash people in the face with inflict wounds or bestow curse.

Clearly more "fighter" than most build people are recommending. I normally skip the 2 levels of fighter for more fist of Raziel And 2 more caster levels but this is a solid build if you really need the extra feats. My favorite level of fist of raziel is level 1. Permanent magic circle against evil. That's a seriously awesome AOE buff.

Spend your swift actions on buffs or heals. Full attack people in the face with charging or tripping focused build.

If you go cleric and want to have feats and smash faces please go into ordained champion at least 3 or 4 levels. Very Warpriest feeling to this build.

A SECOND IDEA. If you want something more "commander style", grab the feat From Smite To Song. Stay 20 levels paladin. Then Google "inspire courage optimization". Steal all the bards tricks and inspire courage William Wallace style with perform: oratory. Grab battle blessing again for swift action spells.

Full base attack, +12 to hit and damage for the whole party, amazing saves, HP and a fairly straight forward build. Very Warpriest feel going for this build. This one is Low tier 3.

[eggynack]

This is an odd thread. To my knowledge, no one has anything especially wrong with the warpriest on a flavor level. If you want to take it and eat the power reduction, then that's just fine. People just think it's weak. Simultaneously arguing against the word of optimization, that losing that many caster levels for abilities on that scale isn't viable, and seeking out ways to make the class viable, makes no sense at all. If you want the class to work in power terms, then you should listen to the folks telling you that you can't lose that many caster levels. If you don't care about power, and just want to play your mid to low tier game, then who cares about how viable the warpriest is? It's just utterly irrelevant.

[Warrnan]

Having reread the thread, I have to say that Delay death is awesome if you keep your Caster level = Character level.

If you're dumping your caster level thru fighter levels and Warpriest, not so much.

Delay death then becomes very vulnerable to dispel and if it gets dispelled you are DEAD.