Most Unbalanced (Overpowered) Monsters!

[Socksy]

Yes, I know there's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29) on this already, but it seems to be too old to post in :smallfrown:

I was running D&D 3.5 for my brother, and I decided he should fight a group of adventurers, one of which was a fang dragon in disguise.
Looking at the fang dragon's block more closely after the encounter, I saw something horrifying.

Wyrmling fang dragon. CR2. CONSTITUTION DRAIN 1d2 with an additional d6 bite damage and d4 per claw.
Constitution drain at CR2!

What are the most overpowered monsters you've fought or seen?

EDIT: Added original thread to the post

[Asrrin]

That Damn Crab. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

[Drezius]

Any CR 1-2 undead draining levels

[Phaederkiel]

may I introduce you to the true horror of early ability damage?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stirge

[Extra Anchovies]

Adamantine Horror, MM2.

It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

It's CR 9.

[ComaVision]

Adamantine Horror, MM2.

It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

It's CR 9.

What the Hell. I had to check it out. On top of all of the above being correct, it has high enough stealth skills to sneak up to anyone that hasn't invested in the perception skills.

[Ellowryn]

What the Hell. I had to check it out. On top of all of the above being correct, it has high enough stealth skills to sneak up to anyone that hasn't invested in the perception skills.

Man, those are sneakier than Goblin Ninja's! And you never see Goblin Ninja's coming!

[Elandris Kajar]

Adamantine Horror, MM2.

It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

It's CR 9.

Yeah, second this one. When I first saw it, I could not believe it. I still cannot. Could wizards have meant 19? That would bee a bit high, but at will disjunction is ridiculous.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, second this one. When I first saw it, I could not believe it. I still cannot. Could wizards have meant 19? That would bee a bit high, but at will disjunction is ridiculous.

That one may be bad, but the other two SLAs are worse. At CL 14, disintegrate is 28d6 damage (98 average, enough to one-shot most 9th-level characters), with a save DC of 21, but the real kicker is Implosion, with its Fortitude save DC of 24. Looking at the sample NPCs in the DMG, the earliest anyone even has a 50% chance of making that save is level 14 (that's the Paladin; Fighter and Barbarian also get to +14 by levels 19 and 20, but nobody else ever does).

[Uncle Pine]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warrior 4 armed with a spiked chain. Colossal size, 30 ft. reach (60 ft. with spiked chain), 3 natural weapons (3d6 each). Colossal spiked chain deals 8d6 damage. It's a CR 1 creature by the book.

EDIT: With the Improved Dragon Wings feat, it also has a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy), even though it can only fly for Con modifier rounds consecutively.

[ComaVision]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Warrior 4 armed with a spiked chain. Colossal size, 30 ft. reach (60 ft. with spiked chain), 3 natural weapons (3d6 each). Colossal spiked chain deals 8d6 damage. It's a CR 1 creature by the book.

You're going to need to explain that.

[Venger]

shadows.

there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.


You're going to need to explain that.

none of the changes he listed alter CR, so it would indeed be a CR 1 since npc classes follow different rules for CR, and warrior is not an associated class for kobolds, further deflating its CR value. the question is where is colossal coming from

[Extra Anchovies]

shadows.

there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.

Just hire a CE soulborn. They can't exactly to anything else with their class features :smalltongue:


none of the changes he listed alter CR, so it would indeed be a CR 1 since npc classes follow different rules for CR, and warrior is not an associated class for kobolds, further deflating its CR value. the question is where is colossal coming from

There's a chart in Draconomicon or some other dragon-related book that links dragon size category to age category (as in, age determines size), and it doesn't specify true dragon IIRC, so it applies to dragonwrought kobolds regardless of the are-they-true-dragons debate. It's one of Uncle Pine's favorite tricks, from the posts of his that I've seen.

[BladeofObliviom]

shadows.

there's no way you can realistically have a way of dealing with incorporeal monsters at level 3, much less mitigate the ability damage they do to you or rez your friends when they are inevitably killed.

Oh, we can do worse than that. The Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm), at the same CR, reads like someone saw the shadow and thought "you know, this needs to be more capable of handily murdering a party".

Its statblock is overall very similar to the shadow, except that it does Wisdom drain instead of Strength damage, it can't create spawn, and it regains 5 hp every time it hits with its touch attack. It also has more health than the shadow and a higher AC, in addition to an effect that denies actions to PCs who fail a will save upon hearing it.

[Venger]

Just hire a CE soulborn. They can't exactly to anything else with their class features :smalltongue:
still deals incorporeal touch damage. since the soulborn can't get him back, shadow will still kill him.




There's a chart in Draconomicon or some other dragon-related book that links dragon size category to age category (as in, age determines size), and it doesn't specify true dragon IIRC, so it applies to dragonwrought kobolds regardless of the are-they-true-dragons debate. It's one of Uncle Pine's favorite tricks, from the posts of his that I've seen.

No.

1) DWK are not true dragons
2) only true dragons have those age categories
3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
4) it certainly is


Oh, we can do worse than that. The Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm), at the same CR, reads like someone saw the shadow and thought "you know, this needs to be more capable of handily murdering a party".

Its statblock is overall very similar to the shadow, except that it does Wisdom drain instead of Strength damage, it can't create spawn, and it regains 5 hp every time it hits with its touch attack. It also has more health than the shadow and a higher AC, in addition to an effect that denies actions to PCs who fail a will save upon hearing it.

allips do have drain instead of damage, however they have no attack and thus no power to kill you on their own. when you reach 0 wis, you don't die or rise as spawn, you just black out.

in tandem with literally anything else, they are deadly, but alone they're a mere annoyance.

[Uncle Pine]

You're going to need to explain that.

Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3. Dragonwrought Kobolds, true or not, are Dragons and use true dragon's age categories per RotD. Thus, a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great wyrm dragon. ELH, under "Dragon, Advanced", states that dragons gain a "virtual age category" for every 3 HDs they gain beyond the great wyrm stage. As it's impossible to be a great wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold before 1st level (you need the Dragonwrought feat to qualify as a Dragon), a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold gains a "virtual age category" at 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. levels. ELH also divides dragons in lesser (Tiny as a wyrmling), ordinary (Small as a wyrmling, never reaches Colossal), greater (Small to Large as a wyrmling, reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage), or epic (force, prismatic). Clearly Dragonwrought Kobolds are in the ordinary group, as a wyrmling Dragonwrought Kobold is Small and it never reaches Colossal size. In the same paragraph, it's stated that an ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. Thus, a Dragonwrought Kobold that reached the great wyrm stage (Venerable) at 1st level becomes Colossal at 4th level. This is not all: a dragon also gets other goodies for each HD it gains beyond the great wyrm stage, most notably +1 natural armor/HD, +2 Str and +2 Con/virtual age category and +2 Int, +2 Wis and +2 Cha/2 age categories. Also, since it's stated that when a dragon becomes Colossal its flight speed increases by +50 ft. and its maneuverability becomes clumsy and I forgot about that, if I give to the aforementioned kobold the Improved Dragon Wings (either at 1st level with a flaw or at 3rd level, remember that a Dragon automatically qualifies for every feat that requires the Dragonblood subtype), at 4th level it'll have a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy). I'll edit my previous post to include that.

[Extra Anchovies]

1) DWK are not true dragons
2) only true dragons have those age categories
3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
4) it certainly is

1) That's disputable; I happen to agree with you but it can't be proven either way.
2) If you could give me the location of the chart I'll believe you. I can't find it in Draconomicon.
3) You're right about non-true dragons, but that's because they don't have draconic age categories. You're wrong about kobolds, though. Races of the Dragon, p. 39, Kobold Age Categories. Any kobold uses the draconic age categories, but DWKs, by virtue of having the dragon type and having draconic age categories, have their size linked to their age.

[BladeofObliviom]

allips do have drain instead of damage, however they have no attack and thus no power to kill you on their own. when you reach 0 wis, you don't die or rise as spawn, you just black out.

in tandem with literally anything else, they are deadly, but alone they're a mere annoyance.

Perhaps, but on the other hand it deals drain a lot faster than PCs can recover naturally, and its combat description claims it will continue to flail away at enemies relentlessly. It's undead and never needs to sleep or stop. So anyone who blacks out is likely to stay that way until they starve to death unless they get lucky and someone rescues them.

[Uncle Pine]

No.

1) DWK are not true dragons
2) only true dragons have those age categories
3) non-true dragon dragons, like ambush drake, advance normally, so too would a DWK.
4) it certainly is

1) Debatable. Let's not do it.
2) Kobolds have age categories too (RotD 39).
3) Dragons with age categories, true or not, follow ELH's rules about advanced dragons.
4) It certainly is what?

[Venger]

1) That's disputable; I happen to agree with you but it can't be proven either way.
2) If you could give me the location of the chart I'll believe you. I can't find it in Draconomicon.
3) You're right about non-true dragons, but that's because they don't have draconic age categories. You're wrong about kobolds, though. Races of the Dragon, p. 39, Kobold Age Categories. Any kobold uses the draconic age categories, but DWKs, by virtue of having the dragon type and having draconic age categories, have their size linked to their age.

1)right but the burden of proof is on proDWK people to prove they are dragons, not for antiDWK to prove that they're not
2) sure, I'll look for it and post a page number. I think it's either in draconomicon or monsters of faerun.
3) oh ok, I misunderstood

Perhaps, but on the other hand it deals drain a lot faster than PCs can recover naturally, and its combat description claims it will continue to flail away at enemies relentlessly. It's undead and never needs to sleep or stop. So anyone who blacks out is likely to stay that way until they starve to death unless they get lucky and someone rescues them.


1) Debatable. Let's not do it.
2) Kobolds have age categories too (RotD 39).
3) Dragons with age categories, true or not, follow ELH's rules about advanced dragons.
4) It certainly is what?

1) I'm so glad you said that. I agree
2) ok
3)see 1
4) it certainly is one of your favorite tricks, as extra anchovies said.

[Extra Anchovies]

4) It certainly is what?

I was just saying that it's one of your favorite tricks, since I've seen you reference it fairly often :smallbiggrin:

[Uncle Pine]

1) I'm so glad you said that. I agree
2) ok
3)see 1
4) it certainly is one of your favorite tricks, as extra anchovies said.
3) There's nothing to debate about that, ELH specifically states how dragons grow beyond the great wyrm stage. If a dragon doesn't have age categories it doesn't follow those rules. If a dragon has them, it does. It also says HD, not "racial HD", so the rules apply to all the dragon's HD beyond great wyrm. It also has nothing to do with 1), because "true" dragons are never mentioned.


I was just saying that it's one of your favorite tricks, since I've seen you reference it fairly often :smallbiggrin:
Oh yes, it certainly is. But for some reason I couldn't connect 4) to your statement when I first read the post, silly me! :smallbiggrin:

[BladeofObliviom]

For other stuff I'm aware of, at least in core, there's the Spider Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#spiderSwarm), whose CR 1 classification is very misleading, since it's very likely to handily murder level 1 characters unless they're carrying Alchemists Fire or something else effective against it. The various types of Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) are also notable for being rather murderous for their CR, particularly the Pyro- and Cryo- variants which are fully capable of spamming breath weapons from all of their heads as free actions every few turns.

[Silva Stormrage]

Since the first thread wasn't linked I figured I would, a bunch of them haven't been mentioned yet.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-%28or-so%29

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.

[BladeofObliviom]

Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.

Er, both have +2 turn resistance, and the Allip has more HD than CR. Not sure turning is really the optimal strategy there. (Though admittedly it'd probably be more effective than anything else you could do at that level...)

[Bad Wolf]

I remember seeing a construct in Sandstorm that had an epic spell as an SLA.

[Karl Aegis]

Shouldn't you be at least level 13 before attempting the clockwork horde? The adamantine horror probably shouldn't be attempted at level 9 due to the massive amount of chaff that comes with it.

[nedz]

Er, both have +2 turn resistance, and the Allip has more HD than CR. Not sure turning is really the optimal strategy there. (Though admittedly it'd probably be more effective than anything else you could do at that level...)

Spirit Shaman — Chastise Spirits — works too. But if you don't have one of these, or a Cleric, in the party then the DM should probably not throw these against you.

[Venger]

Regarding Shadows and Allips: remember, every monster was balanced with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue in mind, and everyone else was ignored. Having turn undead really helps against those guys, unless your DM is cruel and has them return after the fear wears off.

even taking that into account, assuming that all parties are half T1, they both have turn resistance, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


Spirit Shaman — Chastise Spirits — works too. But if you don't have one of these, or a Cleric, in the party then the DM should probably not throw these against you.

no one plays spirit shaman.

that's not the problem, though. obviously if the DM knows what he's doing, this won't be an issue. if the DM is new and has faith in the CR system, uses a generator, or plays a module, it's very likely that they'll accidentally throw a monster their party can't meaningfully affect

[ZamielVanWeber]

no one plays spirit shaman.

I do. I prefer it to druid (more spell fun and no wildshape to keep track of).

On topic: pyroclastic dragon. That disintegrating breath has no descriptors. The only way to be immune to it is to be undead, deathless, or a construct. It has a fairly solid DC for its CR too and, unlike a lot of other "kill everyone" effects, is usable multiple times in short order. Using flyby attack to snipe people out with this is a valid, if cruel, tactic.

[Ruethgar]

Shouldn't it be over-empowered or overpowering not overpowered? I mean does that not bug anyone else that it has two opposite meanings? Either to be subdued or to be given too much power.

And Kobold is the most unbalanced in its favor IMO.

[Aleolus]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned either of these yet. Bluespawn Godslayer and Nimblewight. The Godslayer is a large creature wielding a huge greatsword (without penalty) which does 3d6+3d6 electric on top of their strength, they have Awesome Bliw so they knock you back when they hit you, and it even states that one of their favored tactics is to use awesome blow to knock their target through a square another one threatens so that one gets an AoO! All that at a cr10!

And Nimblewights? 8-20 crit range, and they automatically get a trip attempt every time they crit. Plus they're freaking constructs that can run and have a high Dex

[Agent 451]

I remember seeing a construct in Sandstorm that had an epic spell as an SLA.

The Waste Crawler gets the epic spell global warming, but only can cast it once per century.

[Venger]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned either of these yet. Bluespawn Godslayer and Nimblewight. The Godslayer is a large creature wielding a huge greatsword (without penalty) which does 3d6+3d6 electric on top of their strength, they have Awesome Bliw so they knock you back when they hit you, and it even states that one of their favored tactics is to use awesome blow to knock their target through a square another one threatens so that one gets an AoO! All that at a cr10!

And Nimblewights? 8-20 crit range, and they automatically get a trip attempt every time they crit. Plus they're freaking constructs that can run and have a high Dex

godslayer is a joke. he can't fly and has no ranged attacks. you can take him out without breaking a sweat by CR 10.

nimblewright are pretty disgusting. MM2 is notorious for under-CRed monsters.

[Scheming Wizard]

I'm not sure if it is overpowered, but I have never really understood if the phoenix in the monster manual 2 can die or not. It is CR 24 so a party isn't in much danger by that point because they can port away, but the phoenix automatically bursts into a radius fire damage effect every time it dies then it resurrects itself as a chick.

The thing is can the chick do the same thing if killed?

Does it just fire burst self resurrect every time it is killed?

[Marlowe]

Adamantine Horror, MM2.

It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

It's CR 9.


There's only supposed to be one Adamantine Clockwork Horror in the entire multiverse. So obviously they wated it to be dangerous. But still, that CR is insane.

[Forrestfire]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned either of these yet. Bluespawn Godslayer and Nimblewight. The Godslayer is a large creature wielding a huge greatsword (without penalty) which does 3d6+3d6 electric on top of their strength, they have Awesome Bliw so they knock you back when they hit you, and it even states that one of their favored tactics is to use awesome blow to knock their target through a square another one threatens so that one gets an AoO! All that at a cr10!

And Nimblewights? 8-20 crit range, and they automatically get a trip attempt every time they crit. Plus they're freaking constructs that can run and have a high Dex

Per the 3.5 update, Nimblewrights have a 15-20 crit range, not 12-20 like it was in the Monster Manual 2. What's more dangerous about them is that they're smart and use disguises if they want to, have at-will alter self into animated objects for some of the best hiding in plain sight you could do, and unlike in 3.0, they get feats and skills. Also, they only cost 22k to purchase, letting anyone with a decent amount of WBL turn the tables on the monsters using their new squad of intelligent critbots with at-will haste.

[Khedrac]

Drowned.

Con check instead of fort save against incapacitation/death.
If you don't have water-breathing magics handy you need to locate and kill them very very quickly or party members are going to die.

Note: because of the way the aura works mundane underwater breathing tricks don't work.

[Kazyan]

I once advanced a Boneclaw by a lot, and gave it Cleave and Knock-Down, exploiting the wording of those two feats in tandem. Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Toughness...the works.

It was nuts. Lots of damage to everyone at the slightest provocation, a 20 radius of "you are tripped and everyone nearby you is tripped", and ungodly amounts of HP due to Unholy Toughness. And he was in a dungeon, so "lol we fly" didn't work either.

[Killer Angel]

I recall a yugoloth with CR 5, with Cloudkill 2/day...

[Jahkin]

may I introduce you to the true horror of early ability damage?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stirge

Throw some templates on the Stirge, like maybe Swarm and maybe some other fun, low-level ones, and you are probably going to lose friends.

[BladeofObliviom]

Throw some templates on the Stirge, like maybe Swarm and maybe some other fun, low-level ones, and you are probably going to lose friends.

If we're allowed to use templates and stuff, there's always the power of the Level 1 commoner who happens to be a Were-(Paragon-Woodling-Mineral Warrior-Magebred-Dark-Voidmind Baboon). :smalltongue:

(By RAW, this is CR 2. By sanity, this is...not. This merciless abuse of the Lycanthrope template also adds exactly 4 ECL, in trade for a whole host of completely unbalanced benefits.)


EDIT: As a quick summary of what this does, among other things:

+21 Natural Armor
Obscene physical bonuses that I don't want to calculate, but around +20 to +25 each
About 25 hp at 2 HD before accounting for that completely absurd Con modifier.
Fast Healing 20
DR 10/Epic and Silver
SR 27
Natural weapons: Bite, Slam, Tentacle, 2 Claws
5 or so bonus feats
A whole pile of immunities
Hide in Plain Sight...and a +12 or so racial bonus to the stealth skills
120 ft. move speed, 90 ft. Climb speed

...and much much more!

XD

[Gemini476]

Adamantine Horror, MM2.

It has 16d10 HD, +8 initiative, 50 ft speed, 28 AC, SR 22.

These are its SLAs: disintegrate at-will, implosion at-will, disjunction at-will.

It's CR 9.

While it's a CR9 monster, it's not a CR9 encounter - the oft ignored "Organization" part of the table is "Assembly (1 plus 1–2 platinum horrors, 3–4 gold horrors, and 5–20 electrum horrors)" - one CR9 monster, 1,5 CR7, 3,5 CR5, and 12,5 CR4 monsters. That's an Encounter Level of 11 from the Electrum Horrors alone.

The gold horrors are EL8-9, the platinum EL9-10, and the entire assembly adds up to roughly EL13 if I did the math right.

EL13 is probably too low for that grueling encounter, but at least it's better than just "CR9". I suspect they lowballed it for XP reasons and also maybe some of the same reasons that Dragons are often under-CRed.


Incidentally, That Damn Crab is met either solitary (CR3), as a pair (CR5), or in a swarm (av. 8 individuals, CR9). It's still got way too low a CR, though.

[Flickerdart]

If we're allowed to use templates and stuff, there's always the power of the Level 1 commoner who happens to be a Were-(Paragon-Woodling-Mineral Warrior-Magebred-Dark-Voidmind Baboon).
Except you can't actually nest templates like that - you just end up with a Paragon Woodling Mineral Warrior Magebred Dark Voidmind Were-Baboon

[BladeofObliviom]

Except you can't actually nest templates like that - you just end up with a Paragon Woodling Mineral Warrior Magebred Dark Voidmind Were-Baboon

Can't you? I mean, that would be an entirely reasonable rule, don't get me wrong, but I couldn't find anything actually forbidding it in a cursory search. :smallconfused:

[Brova]

There's something in I think BoVD that gets blasphemy as a spell-like at CL 12. It's CR 6. Half-dragon cats/dogs/warriors get a breath weapon that deals "you die" damage in a big AoE at low levels. Lantern Archons have DR nope, very solid DPS, and teleport at will. Aboleths get mirage arcana to make their flooded cave seem like a non-flooded cave, other illusions, and a decent DC dominate.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Dragon Compendium had a dude that, amongst other goodies had a CL 18 Word of Chaos at CR 12. The free action Su insanity every round is also not fun (but has a low DC).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Some goodies from the old thread (they frowned on abusing class levels there):

Steel Dragons. Properly use their CL far above CR, SR that is especially potent against spells the party would be able to cast when they face the dragon, and the basic dragon-y stuff (fast flight, actually using that triple treasure), and you have a TPK in the making.

Revived Fossil Baboons. AC 24, 27 HP, DR 10/Adamantine, Speed 40' (30' climb), undead immunities. CR 1.

Putting Half Fiend on basically anything with high HD per CR, for instance an Elemental. Party gonna die from that Blasphemy.

[Brova]

Steel Dragons. Properly use their CL far above CR, SR that is especially potent against spells the party would be able to cast when they face the dragon, and the basic dragon-y stuff (fast flight, actually using that triple treasure), and you have a TPK in the making.

If fairness, dragons are pretty lethal with the combination of flight, good attacks, good AC, decent spellcasting and a breath weapon. A wyrmling black dragon in a swamp is probably going to TPK most 3rd level parties if it fights smart.

[Forrestfire]

Can't you? I mean, that would be an entirely reasonable rule, don't get me wrong, but I couldn't find anything actually forbidding it in a cursory search. :smallconfused:

The issue isn't with the templates, but with lycanthrope and Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template."

[Zanos]

If fairness, dragons are pretty lethal with the combination of flight, good attacks, good AC, decent spellcasting and a breath weapon. A wyrmling black dragon in a swamp is probably going to TPK most 3rd level parties if it fights smart.
Steel Dragons are unique in that they have an effective sorcerer level that is above their CR. Why deploy an enemy sorcerer when you can have one that is just as good at casting, and is also a Dragon, for a lower cr?

And while it maybe comes late, a Great Wyrm Steel Dragon casts as a 21st level sorcerer(and can therefore drop Epic Spells), but is only CR 18.

[Flickerdart]

Steel Dragons are unique in that they have an effective sorcerer level that is above their CR. Why deploy an enemy sorcerer when you can have one that is just as good at casting, and is also a Dragon, for a lower cr?
You can do that with any dragon - why use a wizard when you can have a dragon who is also a wizard of the same level by gaming associated class level rules?

[Brova]

Steel Dragons are unique in that they have an effective sorcerer level that is above their CR. Why deploy an enemy sorcerer when you can have one that is just as good at casting, and is also a Dragon, for a lower cr?

And while it maybe comes late, a Great Wyrm Steel Dragon casts as a 21st level sorcerer(and can therefore drop Epic Spells), but is only CR 18.

That is ... uniquely stupid. I'm sometimes amazed that the people who put together 3e managed to put together 3e.

On an unrelated note, and in the reverse of much of this thread, the shrieker is incapable of hurting people, but is still CR 1. Apparently two of those are as much of a challenge as a giant crab.

[Zanos]

You can do that with any dragon - why use a wizard when you can have a dragon who is also a wizard of the same level by gaming associated class level rules?
The Steel Dragon is a printed creature.

If you're willing to customize stuff as much as you'd like, I'm sure you could probably **** out something that casts Epic Spells at CR 1. In general rule combinations are a failing of designers to understand eachothers intent, and making a custom NPC that's much stronger than it's CR would indicate isn't really an accomplishment. I think it's more interesting to see stuff like 9th level SLAs on an unmodified creature at CR 9 or the con check or die ability on the drowned.

In the "strongest monsters by their CR" thread I think stuff with templates/highly customized was restricted because eventually the list would just be a series of templates and class levels where the base creature wasn't really relevant.

[nedz]

64 CR 1 Monsters are EL 12 :smallconfused:

This would be overpowered in the other direction though.

[ksbsnowowl]

It's not horribly overpowered in actual play (so long as you don't grapple with it...), but the Ibrandlin is a dragon from Monsters of Faerun that is Gargantuan sized and only CR 5. Its breath weapon is only 2d6 fire, and it is slow (20 ft.), so you can run away from it (again, if not grappled).
It has 135 hit points, though, and SR 20. It also is specifically a grapple monster... with a grapple modifier of +34.
It bites at +18, dealing 4d6+12 damage, and also gets 4 claw attacks at +13, dealing 2d8+6.

Phaerlin Giants are from the same book. They are Huge, have 68 hit points, SR 14, AC 17, a Claw/Claw/Bite routine at +9/+9/+4, have scent and fightful presence... and are CR 3.
But, its movement is only 20 feet, and the frightful presence only has a chance to make you shaken. Still...

[Bayar]

Throw some templates on the Stirge, like maybe Swarm and maybe some other fun, low-level ones, and you are probably going to lose friends.

Yeah, reminds me of the World's Largest Dungeon, which had these bastards with the Fiendish Template. One room had like 22 of them, but the PC's had to fight only a quarter of them at a time unless they did something in that room (which would draw them all to attack). Oh, and for an increase in challenge they recommended PC's fight half of them at a time. This in a dungeon designed for Level 1-3. And this particular room was not that far away from the entrance.

Fun times.

[Flickerdart]

The Steel Dragon is a printed creature.
I'm not aware of any Steel Dragon stat block. The standard dragon entry still needs to be assembled, so any Steel Dragon NPC is still custom. Less custom than a dragon with class levels, but still custom.

[Necroticplague]

The issue isn't with the templates, but with lycanthrope and Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template."

That only stops you from going into animal form. Doesn't stop you from entering hybrid form, and especially doesn't stop the base animal from having a template

[Extra Anchovies]

Yeah, reminds me of the World's Largest Dungeon, which had these bastards with the Fiendish Template. One room had like 22 of them, but the PC's had to fight only a quarter of them at a time unless they did something in that room (which would draw them all to attack).

Like getting feared into the whelp cave? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MJdNAvKdzM)


Oh, and for an increase in challenge they recommended PC's fight half of them at a time. This in a dungeon designed for Level 1-3. And this particular room was not that far away from the entrance.

Fun times.

Yeah, swarms are massively under-CR'd. The only way I can see a level 3 party beating a horde of fiendish stirges would be if one of them can turn or rebuke evil outsiders.

[Bayar]

Like getting feared into the whelp cave? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MJdNAvKdzM)



Yeah, swarms are massively under-CR'd. The only way I can see a level 3 party beating a horde of fiendish stirges would be if one of them can turn or rebuke evil outsiders.

If you're going to link that at least link to the original creator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04).

And stirges were not the only things there. The first hostile encounters are fiendish darkmantles that cannot be seen unless the party specifies they are looking at the ceiling and fiendish rat swarms. As in plural.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thanks for linking the creator, I didn't know which of the videos was the original since they're identical.


And stirges were not the only things there. The first hostile encounters are fiendish darkmantles that cannot be seen unless the party specifies they are looking at the ceiling and fiendish rat swarms. As in plural.

Why fiendish everything? That's boring.

[Uncle Pine]

Why fiendish everything? That's boring.

Maybe to avoid having the Druid casting Calm Animal or Animal Trance on them? Moreover, even if fiendish creatures' SR is pretty low (5+HD) at low levels it's pretty efficient.

EDIT: Efficient as in "I want to screw with the party really badly".

[Forrestfire]

That only stops you from going into animal form. Doesn't stop you from entering hybrid form, and especially doesn't stop the base animal from having a template

Ah, good point. Carry on, then :smallamused:

[Gemini476]

64 CR 1 Monsters are EL 12 :smallconfused:

This would be overpowered in the other direction though.
At least they don't give XP to anyone above level nine.

The encounter building system gets really weird sometimes. They expect you to use the Organization part of the table, but how do you even handle an encounter with a band of 1d10x10 (or is that 10d10?) kobolds, much less a tribe of 4d10x10 plus all of the leaders and dire weasels and whatnot?

I was working on an Excel table with all the encounter levels of those encounters and the biome and whatnot some time ago. Maybe i should pick it up again - it was kind of weird at times. I think I locked the CR of the unwashed masses to +8 or something for the XP reasons?

[Uncle Pine]

More fun with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds: take the kobold from a few page ago and add the ghostly template (Draconomicon 162) to it. It's now a CR 3 incorporeal creature with a cone-shaped breath weapon that strips every target who fails a Fortitude save of 12 points of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Complete wording is "any creature caught within is affected by a catastrophic ability drain, permanently losing a number of points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to the base dragon's age category [great wyrm is 12] (Fortitude negates)", so it isn't even drain or damage (even if RAI it should obviously be ability drain). The targets just lose them, forever. Ghostly is also a LA +5 template, if you swing that way.

I guess balancing kobolds is a broken cause.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You can do that with any dragon - why use a wizard when you can have a dragon who is also a wizard of the same level by gaming associated class level rules?Well yes, the associated class rules themselves are more dangerous than any printed creature. But that's no fun.

[Brova]

Well yes, the associated class rules themselves are more dangerous than any printed creature. But that's no fun.

What's even funnier is the combination of the associated class rules and the ECL rules. An NPC stone giant Wizard 14 is CR 15. A PC stone giant Wizard 14 is ECL 32. He literally doesn't get any experience from a mirror match. That is ... incredibly stupid.

[Venger]

What's even funnier is the combination of the associated class rules and the ECL rules. An NPC stone giant Wizard 14 is CR 15. A PC stone giant Wizard 14 is ECL 32. He literally doesn't get any experience from a mirror match. That is ... incredibly stupid.

it's almost like the CR system is less than perfect

nonassociated class levels on a character with a junk preferred class are a great way to kill your party.

[Necroticplague]

Ah, good point. Carry on, then :smallamused:

The hard part about it is keeping the other part an animal, since so many templates either change types in general or say 'if the creature was originally an animal, it becomes a magical beast'.

[Thurbane]

Vampire Loxo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17959282&postcount=1) at CR 4.

Or Athach Cleric 14 at CR 15 (non-associated levels can be broken).

[Brova]

Or Athach Cleric 14 at CR 15 (non-associated levels can be broken).

I don't really understand how that's broken. At CR 15 you could just be a 15th level Cleric. Is the fact that you're a funky three armed not-giant really adding anything to compare with 8th level spells? To really break non-associated levels you want something with a really big pile of HD per CR. Ideally, something with more than twice it's CR in HD so you can get critters with CRs lower than their Wizard levels. For example, a hypothetical CR 3 creature with 12 HD lets you make a CR 9 Wizard 12. There's nothing I can (quickly) find like that in the SRD except high end vermin, which are too high for the trick to do much good.

[Scheming Wizard]

The CR 10 war troll from Monster Manual 3 is pretty good. Not necessarily broken, but a good monster to polymorph into if you can.

[137beth]

If NPCs count, then anything Tippy builds.



There's something in I think BoVD that gets blasphemy as a spell-like at CL 12. It's CR 6.
I believe you are thinking of the Kocrachon devil. It's blashphemy is only once per day, but even against a party of ECL 6 characters that is still an automatic paralyzed, weakened, and dazed. And it can also summon more kocrachon during the 1d10 minutes in which everyone is paralyzed.


In pathfinder, the skeletal champion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/skeletal-champion-CR-1) template is absurd. It's CR is one higher than a normal skeleton with the same hit-dice, but it keeps the abilities of the base creature. If used on a creature whose CR is almost as high as their hit-dice, it substantially lowers the CR, without actually nerfing the monster. Take a 10th level NPC, and make them a skeletal champion, and they are CR 5, with all their 10th level class features.

[Venger]

If NPCs count, then anything Tippy builds.

remember the time he built a factotum? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14883252&postcount=3) CR10. yikes.

[Thurbane]

I don't really understand how that's broken. At CR 15 you could just be a 15th level Cleric. Is the fact that you're a funky three armed not-giant really adding anything to compare with 8th level spells? To really break non-associated levels you want something with a really big pile of HD per CR. Ideally, something with more than twice it's CR in HD so you can get critters with CRs lower than their Wizard levels. For example, a hypothetical CR 3 creature with 12 HD lets you make a CR 9 Wizard 12. There's nothing I can (quickly) find like that in the SRD except high end vermin, which are too high for the trick to do much good.

Well, personally I'd say that +16 Str, +10 Con, Huge Size and 133 extra HP is worth the level, but that's just my opinion.

[Brova]

Well, personally I'd say that +16 Str, +10 Con, Huge Size and 133 extra HP is worth the level, but that's just my opinion.

I mean, it's not bad or anything, but it's not massively more powerful than the Cleric 15. Compare that to the difference between, say, the giant crab and any other CR 3 monster. It's really no contest.

[Socksy]

Since the first thread wasn't linked I figured I would, a bunch of them haven't been mentioned yet.

I fixed it :D


Er, both have +2 turn resistance, and the Allip has more HD than CR. Not sure turning is really the optimal strategy there. (Though admittedly it'd probably be more effective than anything else you could do at that level...)

Can't magic missiles hit incorporeal beasties?


I mean does that not bug anyone else that it has two opposite meanings? Either to be subdued or to be given too much power.

I can't unsee that. :c


I'm not sure if it is overpowered, but I have never really understood if the phoenix in the monster manual 2 can die or not. It is CR 24 so a party isn't in much danger by that point because they can port away, but the phoenix automatically bursts into a radius fire damage effect every time it dies then it resurrects itself as a chick.

The thing is can the chick do the same thing if killed?

Does it just fire burst self resurrect every time it is killed?

You have Wish at that point. And probably fire immunity.


Note: because of the way the aura works mundane underwater breathing tricks don't work.

You mean like drown-healing?


a 20 radius of "you are tripped and everyone nearby you is tripped"

This sounds hilarious.



Incidentally, That Damn Crab is met either solitary (CR3), as a pair (CR5), or in a swarm (av. 8 individuals, CR9). It's still got way too low a CR, though.

In my campaigns, That Damn Crab has a shell patterned like Darth Maul, while the regular monstrous crabs are white with amber bits. PCs need SOME way of knowing :smallbiggrin:


More fun with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds: take the kobold from a few page ago and add the ghostly template (Draconomicon 162) to it. It's now a CR 3 incorporeal creature with a cone-shaped breath weapon that strips every target who fails a Fortitude save of 12 points of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Complete wording is "any creature caught within is affected by a catastrophic ability drain, permanently losing a number of points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to the base dragon's age category [great wyrm is 12] (Fortitude negates)", so it isn't even drain or damage (even if RAI it should obviously be ability drain). The targets just lose them, forever. Ghostly is also a LA +5 template, if you swing that way.

I guess balancing kobolds is a broken cause.

HEAVY BREATHING


I'm also going to remind people of the Vorr. More DR than most gods at CR4.

[Necroticplague]

Can't magic missiles hit incorporeal beasties?

Yes, it does, but its still bad design. Their HP is good enough that you need two for a shadow and three for an allip. And 'lets make it so only one player can do anything and has to use up most of his resources to do so', is still pretty poor game design.

[Uncle Pine]

HEAVY BREATHING

Is that a thumb up or a thumb down? :smallbiggrin:

By the way, did anyone mention skiurids, the little shadow chipmunks from MMIV? CR 1/2, Tiny size, can cast a modified version of Darkness 3 times/day at CL 3 that deals 1d6 damage to all creatures in the area and allow a Fortitude save with DC 20 to avoid taking 1 point of Str damage. They also have +19 Hide and +11 Move Silently, meaning that they're unlikely to be spotted, and Listen +3 and Spot +7, which isn't iffy. Throw a couple of them at a 1st level party and watch them all get killed in a couple of rounds because they can't see what's spamming 2d6 unresistable area damage on them.
The sample encounter section even suggests to throw 34 of them along with an umbral banyan (a CR 10 tree from Manual of the Planes) as an EL 12 encounter. To be honest, at this level any AoE is going to fry them (they have 2 hp), but 34d6 damage/round can be nasty.

[kellbyb]

Vampire Loxo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17959282&postcount=1) at CR 4.

Or Athach Cleric 14 at CR 15 (non-associated levels can be broken).


I don't really understand how that's broken. At CR 15 you could just be a 15th level Cleric. Is the fact that you're a funky three armed not-giant really adding anything to compare with 8th level spells? To really break non-associated levels you want something with a really big pile of HD per CR. Ideally, something with more than twice it's CR in HD so you can get critters with CRs lower than their Wizard levels. For example, a hypothetical CR 3 creature with 12 HD lets you make a CR 9 Wizard 12. There's nothing I can (quickly) find like that in the SRD except high end vermin, which are too high for the trick to do much good.


remember the time he built a factotum? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14883252&postcount=3) CR10. yikes.


Well, personally I'd say that +16 Str, +10 Con, Huge Size and 133 extra HP is worth the level, but that's just my opinion.


I mean, it's not bad or anything, but it's not massively more powerful than the Cleric 15. Compare that to the difference between, say, the giant crab and any other CR 3 monster. It's really no contest.

8th level spells are a pretty big deal. I'd personally call this an unfavorable trade-off for the athach.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I mean, it's not bad or anything, but it's not massively more powerful than the Cleric 15. Compare that to the difference between, say, the giant crab and any other CR 3 monster. It's really no contest.CR 3 is actually the level where the designers went "and now is the time to kill your PCs," so unfortunately there is a contest.

So far we've mentioned Shadows and Allips, which are arguably harder to deal with than the crab and more likely to TPK rather than eat a single PC.
Then you have Mirror Mephits, who have a CL 8 Simulacrum 1/day. You can imagine the shenanigans.
And of course there's the Runehound. DR 5/Silver, Fast Healing 3, Blindsight 500', 50' speed, 10' reach, combat reflexes with the dex to use it, a Web breath weapon, a 100' acid breath weapon on a separate cooldown... you can't run away, you can't hide, it wins wars of attrition, it's a tough beastie in melee, and it can just kite you to death with acid and webs if it wants.

Ultimately my vote would go to the Allip.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm also going to remind people of the Vorr. More DR than most gods at CR4.

Oh geez, that Shadow Form is nasty (Vorr is in Fiend Folio, and can 1/day get DR 50/+5 and a host of other immunities by turning into a shadow for 10 minutes). They probably meant for it to be unable to attack during that time, but forgot to include that.

[Venger]

Oh geez, that Shadow Form is nasty (Vorr is in Fiend Folio, and can 1/day get DR 50/+5 and a host of other immunities by turning into a shadow for 10 minutes). They probably meant for it to be unable to attack during that time, but forgot to include that.

just use spells to kill him like a normal person.

what we really need to talk about is the weird grab bag of immunities you get:


immune
to blindness, critical hits,
damage to ability scores from nonmagical attacks, deafness,
disease, drowning, poison, and stunning. It takes half
damage from fire and acid.

what the heck? who compiled this list? it's all over the place. why would they call out "damage to ability scores from nonmagical attacks"? at the time, about the only thing that'd apply to was crippling strike, and they've already told the rogue to seek the sky by making him immune to precision damage

[Brova]

CR 3 is actually the level where the designers went "and now is the time to kill your PCs," so unfortunately there is a contest.

Yah, CR 3 is kinda crowded with monsters that will wreck you. But that doesn't really disprove my point.


So far we've mentioned Shadows and Allips, which are arguably harder to deal with than the crab and more likely to TPK rather than eat a single PC.

The crab is probably more dangerous (and in what world is it only getting one kill?), especially because you can totally kill the allip if you happen to be a party of Warmages or something. Krabby is putting out an average of 29 damage a round, which shreds any caster in the party no questions asked and kills anyone without 18+ Con, d10+ hit dice, and crazy good rolls. Even an 18 Con Barbarian who rolled max HP is dead in two rounds.


Then you have Mirror Mephits, who have a CL 8 Simulacrum 1/day. You can imagine the shenanigans.

As far as I can tell, a simulacrum would be counted towards the challenge rating of whatever encounter it happened to be a part of. So while a mirror mephit is certainly very powerful to have as a pokemon, it's not particularly game-breaking as a monster.


And of course there's the Runehound. DR 5/Silver, Fast Healing 3, Blindsight 500', 50' speed, 10' reach, combat reflexes with the dex to use it, a Web breath weapon, a 100' acid breath weapon on a separate cooldown... you can't run away, you can't hide, it wins wars of attrition, it's a tough beastie in melee, and it can just kite you to death with acid and webs if it wants.

I would note that the breath weapon and web seem like they might be on the same cooldown, but yes that is totally insane.


Ultimately my vote would go to the Allip.

I don't know, the allip is kind of ... killable. Not particularly easily or reasonably, but it's got a fairly small stack of hit points and it doesn't kill you in one round like the crab. IMO the crab is the most lethal, but the runehound certainly wins the award for "WTF were they thinking."


8th level spells are a pretty big deal. I'd personally call this an unfavorable trade-off for the athach.

I could see that. Especially considering that if you really cared, polymorph any object is an 8th level spell. It's even in the core Trickery domain.

My vote for "most broken NPC" is an awakened zombie. It's CR 6, but has 20 hit dice. So a 20th level whatever slides in as CR 16. That's pretty nuts. Another option is kobold Sorcerer 1s with Eschew Materials and launch bolt. Enjoy those 4d6 damage cantrips. What's better, they aren't even carrying any gear to tip players off.

[Uncle Pine]

Oh geez, that Shadow Form is nasty (Vorr is in Fiend Folio, and can 1/day get DR 50/+5 and a host of other immunities by turning into a shadow for 10 minutes). They probably meant for it to be unable to attack during that time, but forgot to include that.

Weird, the Shadow Form I'm looking at only provides DR 50/magic, not 50/+5. :smallconfused:

[Chronos]

Quoth Uncle Pine:

More fun with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds: take the kobold from a few page ago and add the ghostly template (Draconomicon 162) to it. It's now a CR 3 incorporeal creature with a cone-shaped breath weapon that strips every target who fails a Fortitude save of 12 points of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Complete wording is "any creature caught within is affected by a catastrophic ability drain, permanently losing a number of points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to the base dragon's age category [great wyrm is 12] (Fortitude negates)", so it isn't even drain or damage (even if RAI it should obviously be ability drain). The targets just lose them, forever. Ghostly is also a LA +5 template, if you swing that way.

I guess balancing kobolds is a broken cause.
(emphasis added)
Beg pardon? It says right there that it's ability drain. Which is still pretty nasty, as ability drain never recovers without magic.

[Venger]

Weird, the Shadow Form I'm looking at only provides DR 50/magic, not 50/+5. :smallconfused:

where are you looking?

in fiend folio, since it was 3.0, vorr had dr 50/+5. the errata changed it, along with all dr/+x to dr/magic.

[Uncle Pine]

(emphasis added)
Beg pardon? It says right there that it's ability drain. Which is still pretty nasty, as ability drain never recovers without magic.

More fun with Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds: take the kobold from a few page ago and add the ghostly template (Draconomicon 162) to it. It's now a CR 3 incorporeal creature with a cone-shaped breath weapon that strips every target who fails a Fortitude save of 12 points of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Complete wording is "any creature caught within is affected by a catastrophic ability drain, permanently losing a number of points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to the base dragon's age category [great wyrm is 12] (Fortitude negates)", so it isn't even drain or damage (even if RAI it should obviously be ability drain). The targets just lose them, forever. Ghostly is also a LA +5 template, if you swing that way.
Other drain attacks specify that the ability scores can be restored through magic or simply say "drain" (i.e. "an allip causes 1d4 points of Wisdom drain each time it hits with its incorporeal touch attack"). The way ghostly dragon's breath weapon is worded make it look the first part of the sentence more like descriptive text than actual rules and the second half of it simply say that the ability loss is permanent period. But as I said it's clear that they meant ability drain and the part about permanently losing ability scores may or may not be partially inspired by late night posting.



where are you looking?

in fiend folio, since it was 3.0, vorr had dr 50/+5. the errata changed it, along with all dr/+x to dr/magic.
This made me realize for the first time that my copy of Fiend Folio (Italian) is integrally updated to 3.5 (not 3.0 with an appendix like MMII). So I guess that's why Vorr has DR 50/magic instead of 50/+5.

[Socksy]

what the heck? who compiled this list? it's all over the place. why would they call out "damage to ability scores from nonmagical attacks"? at the time, about the only thing that'd apply to was crippling strike, and they've already told the rogue to seek the sky by making him immune to precision damage

My aforementioned baby Fang Dragon deals supernatural ability drain, as does that allip. Ego Whip and other psionics, some poisons, and probably some other alchemical things can also damage abilities.

[Venger]

My aforementioned baby Fang Dragon deals supernatural ability drain, as does that allip. Ego Whip and other psionics, some poisons, and probably some other alchemical things can also damage abilities.

both of those are supernatural, so would not be blocked by an immunity to nonmagical attack.

[Socksy]

both of those are supernatural, so would not be blocked by an immunity to nonmagical attack.

That's what I'm saying, they wouldn't be blocked and the poor Vorr would get its stats nibbled on.

[Story]

in what world is it only getting one kill?

The fluff says that the crab only kills one person before running off to eat.

[Brova]

The fluff says that the crab only kills one person before running off to eat.

That's not really a mitigating factor. There's no mechanical support for the crab killing only one person, and frankly it's actual stats suggest that it will kill the entire party.

[Uncle Pine]

The fluff says that the crab only kills one person before running off to eat.

"Was trying to run off to eat, other adventurers got in the way."

[Aleolus]

By the way, did anyone mention skiurids, the little shadow chipmunks from MMIV? CR 1/2, Tiny size, can cast a modified version of Darkness 3 times/day at CL 3 that deals 1d6 damage to all creatures in the area and allow a Fortitude save with DC 20 to avoid taking 1 point of Str damage. They also have +19 Hide and +11 Move Silently, meaning that they're unlikely to be spotted, and Listen +3 and Spot +7, which isn't iffy. Throw a couple of them at a 1st level party and watch them all get killed in a couple of rounds because they can't see what's spamming 2d6 unresistable area damage on them.
The sample encounter section even suggests to throw 34 of them along with an umbral banyan (a CR 10 tree from Manual of the Planes) as an EL 12 encounter. To be honest, at this level any AoE is going to fry them (they have 2 hp), but 34d6 damage/round can be nasty.

I was actually told about a party that almost got tpk'ed by skurrids. They were in a forrest full of them, one got spooked and used that darkness ability. The party (none of whom knew about skurrids in game or out) thought they were under attack and started running. Thhe running scared more skurrids, which all started using their darkness abilities as well. They nearly all died before someone figured out that if they stayed still, it stopped happening

[Socksy]

I was actually told about a party that almost got tpk'ed by skurrids. They were in a forrest full of them, one got spooked and used that darkness ability. The party (none of whom knew about skurrids in game or out) thought they were under attack and started running. Thhe running scared more skurrids, which all started using their darkness abilities as well. They nearly all died before someone figured out that if they stayed still, it stopped happening

D'aaaawwwww. Poor little confused squirrels. That's so cute.

[Kazyan]

I was actually told about a party that almost got tpk'ed by skurrids. They were in a forrest full of them, one got spooked and used that darkness ability. The party (none of whom knew about skurrids in game or out) thought they were under attack and started running. Thhe running scared more skurrids, which all started using their darkness abilities as well. They nearly all died before someone figured out that if they stayed still, it stopped happening

When I used skiurids, they kept throwing acorns with their darkness ability centered on them.

At one point, the PCs had to climb a wall to get to a quest-cave. Strength damage + can't take 10 due to skiurids at the top throwing acorns dealing 1 nonlethal each = I was very amused.

[BladeofObliviom]

And of course there's the Runehound. DR 5/Silver, Fast Healing 3, Blindsight 500', 50' speed, 10' reach, combat reflexes with the dex to use it, a Web breath weapon, a 100' acid breath weapon on a separate cooldown... you can't run away, you can't hide, it wins wars of attrition, it's a tough beastie in melee, and it can just kite you to death with acid and webs if it wants.

Bonus points for the Runehound, because even WotC knew that it was under-CRed and left it there anyway. One of the articles on their site (dealing with CR assignment, amusingly) actually simulates an encounter between a runehound and a standard level 3 party. It ends with them losing the cleric and running away.

...then points out that it has track and a very high survival modifier. :smallamused:

[Kazyan]

Runehounds with the Multi-Headed template are even worse. All that synergy...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That's not really a mitigating factor. There's no mechanical support for the crab killing only one person, and frankly it's actual stats suggest that it will kill the entire party.Yeah it is a mitigating factor, because it describes what TDC will do. Here is a typical EL3 That Damn Crab encounter.

PCs investigate near a body of water. Let's say there's mutual surprise and TDC is near the surface.

1. Some PCs win init because it's 4-5 rolls vs. 1. They do ineffectual things to it.
2. TDC hits/grapples/constricts/kills one PC, goes beneath the water to eat it.
3. Rest of party ineffectually tries to save Dead PC.
4. TDC spends next few rounds eating Dead PC because that's what it says in the monster entry, and TDC isn't smart enough to alter its tactics. Not that it even should, necessarily; it got its meal. In this time, the PCs learn to avoid the water, for TDC lurks there.

A near-guaranteed PC kill is still way too brutal, but it matters when you're comparing it to near-guaranteed TPKs. Who games with a party of warmages?


Bonus points for the Runehound, because even WotC knew that it was under-CRed and left it there anyway. One of the articles on their site (dealing with CR assignment, amusingly) actually simulates an encounter between a runehound and a standard level 3 party. It ends with them losing the cleric and running away.

...then points out that it has track and a very high survival modifier. Who needs track when you have 50' movement and 500' blindsight? They ain't runnin'. They dead.

[Brova]

Yeah it is a mitigating factor, because it describes what TDC will do. Here is a typical EL3 That Damn Crab encounter.

PCs investigate near a body of water. Let's say there's mutual surprise and TDC is near the surface.

1. Some PCs win init because it's 4-5 rolls vs. 1. They do ineffectual things to it.
2. TDC hits/grapples/constricts/kills one PC, goes beneath the water to eat it.
3. Rest of party ineffectually tries to save Dead PC.
4. TDC spends next few rounds eating Dead PC because that's what it says in the monster entry, and TDC isn't smart enough to alter its tactics. Not that it even should, necessarily; it got its meal. In this time, the PCs learn to avoid the water, for TDC lurks there.

You're missing attacks of opportunity, which kill one or two PCs. Also the fact that it's supposed to grab people in each claw, not just one. So you're looking at two or three dead PCs minimum, and that assumes people don't follow the monster that just ate their friends. And there just isn't a plan you can have to kill this guy. Your best bet is hoping that the PC he kills round one wasn't your caster, and that your caster prepped glitterdust. Even then you don't have a great shot, because you hit your friends too. Compare that to the allip, where you could totally win if you happened to have a bunch of force damage or if your Barbarian gets a hit in. The counter to big vermin is to kite them, which you can't do at level 3.

[ksbsnowowl]

Meenlocks at CR 3. A single Meenlock could kite a 3rd level party pretty easily. It can use Dimension Door every other round, though it only has a 60-foot range. But with its Hide modifier (+16; +12 in the 3.5 update), it can just hop from tree to tree, staying out of the PCs' reach. Especially with its 300-foot-range attack that deals 1d4 Wisdom damage (Will DC 14 negates).

It also has Track, so can try to hunt the party down as they flee...

If the DM really wanted to be evil... give one Mindsight in place of Alertness, so it can really put that 300-foot Telepathy to use.

Don't forget its 30-foot fear aura it can use as a free action, causing those affected to become "catatonic" (similar to Dazed) for 5–8 rounds... Force the party to leave one of them behind while the others flee...

Granted, the organization listing means you shouldn't find less than 3 meenlocks together, meaning EL 6.

[Socksy]

Meenlocks at CR 3. A single Meenlock could kite a 3rd level party pretty easily. It can use Dimension Door every other round, though it only has a 60-foot range. But with its Hide modifier (+16; +12 in the 3.5 update), it can just hop from tree to tree, staying out of the PCs' reach. Especially with its 300-foot-range attack that deals 1d4 Wisdom damage (Will DC 14 negates).

It also has Track, so can try to hunt the party down as they flee...

If the DM really wanted to be evil... give one Mindsight in place of Alertness, so it can really put that 300-foot Telepathy to use.

Don't forget its 30-foot fear aura it can use as a free action, causing those affected to become "catatonic" (similar to Dazed) for 5–8 rounds... Force the party to leave one of them behind while the others flee...

Granted, the organization listing means you shouldn't find less than 3 meenlocks together, meaning EL 6.

What book is this from?!

[Venger]

What book is this from?!

MM2.

almost every monster we talk about in these threads is gonna be mm2 or ff.

[VariSami]

Oh, the joy of having to face 10 Meenlocks with more HD than their advancement normally permits. I still cannot believe we made it out alive. The primary reason was my own cheese in the form of Amber Amulet of Vermin (huge monstrous scorpion) although we also got lucky.

Wendigo is also quite the mean template to a low CR monster. The fact that it actually increases CR by 2 is somewhat mitigating but I remember throwing a solitary Wendigo Worg at my players and having them almost completely incapable of doing anything about it. Something with a spammable long-range ability at base CR 1-2 would be even worse for the players due to Fly Speed 120 ft. (perfect).

[nedz]

MM2.

almost every monster we talk about in these threads is gonna be mm2 or ff.

I've been tempted for a while to say: MM2 /thread

But I'm sure that there must be some monsters in that book which aren't overpowered for their CR ?

MM2 is 3.0, did the CR system work differently in that version ?

[NNescio]

Other drain attacks specify that the ability scores can be restored through magic or simply say "drain" (i.e. "an allip causes 1d4 points of Wisdom drain each time it hits with its incorporeal touch attack"). The way ghostly dragon's breath weapon is worded make it look the first part of the sentence more like descriptive text than actual rules and the second half of it simply say that the ability loss is permanent period. But as I said it's clear that they meant ability drain and the part about permanently losing ability scores may or may not be partially inspired by late night posting.



This made me realize for the first time that my copy of Fiend Folio (Italian) is integrally updated to 3.5 (not 3.0 with an appendix like MMII). So I guess that's why Vorr has DR 50/magic instead of 50/+5.

I dunno, looks like ability drain to me:


Ability Score Loss

Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).


Ability Drain

This effect permanently reduces a living opponent’s ability score when the creature hits with a melee attack. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount drained. If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice). Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this fashion last for a maximum of 1 hour.

Some ability drain attacks allow a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). If no saving throw is mentioned, none is allowed.

Points lost to ability drain, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.

It would take a rather... twisted way to read it the way you're advocating (that is, literal RAW reading while how the word 'permanent' is implied/defined in precedents. Seems like it just means "won't recover naturally".)

[Extra Anchovies]

I've been tempted for a while to say: MM2 /thread

But I'm sure that there must be some monsters in that book which aren't overpowered for their CR ?

Indeed there are. Of note is the Megapede. It's a Colossal vermin with 400 hp (32 HD), AC 18 (touch 0), DR 25/magic, SR 31, tremorsense, standard vermin traits, and a nasty poison (DC 44, 2d6 con damage plus 1d4 dex drain). It's described as an ambush predator (Colossal ambush predator? Really?), and it's got an 80 foot land speed (and a 20 foot burrow speed) so it'll probably get a surprise round, but it's going to lose initiative (-2) and get nuked down on the first turn (or wiped out from the air, because everything flies at that level).

Really, anything at that level that can't fly and doesn't have any SLAs is a free experience packet.

[Chronos]

And what CR is that megapede?

[Extra Anchovies]

And what CR is that megapede?

Oh, right. Derp.

CR 20. It's just a ball of stats without any magic or ranged attacks, though, so it'll go down fast.

[Brova]

Oh, right. Derp.

CR 20. It's just a ball of stats without any magic or ranged attacks, though, so it'll go down fast.

This is basically the deal with all the giant vermin. They have really impressive numbers, but they can't really do anything to you if you can fly. A megapede is pretty scary if you're a level 20 Fighter, but someone with an actual class (or even a Warlock) could beat it up between levels 6 at 10.

[Venger]

I've been tempted for a while to say: MM2 /thread

But I'm sure that there must be some monsters in that book which aren't overpowered for their CR ?

MM2 is 3.0, did the CR system work differently in that version ?

aside from garbage monsters like dinosuars or famine spirits, not really.

no, they were just even worse at assigning CR back then.


Indeed there are. Of note is the Megapede. It's a Colossal vermin with 400 hp (32 HD), AC 18 (touch 0), DR 25/magic, SR 31, tremorsense, standard vermin traits, and a nasty poison (DC 44, 2d6 con damage plus 1d4 dex drain). It's described as an ambush predator (Colossal ambush predator? Really?), and it's got an 80 foot land speed (and a 20 foot burrow speed) so it'll probably get a surprise round, but it's going to lose initiative (-2) and get nuked down on the first turn (or wiped out from the air, because everything flies at that level).

Really, anything at that level that can't fly and doesn't have any SLAs is a free experience packet.

NB: save dc for poison was calculated differently back then and included a bonus for the creature's size, which is why the megapede's poison DC is calculated wrong. its poison is nowhere near as deadly under the 3.5 rules.

[ksbsnowowl]

Legion Devils are another monster that can be quite overpowered, but only as the EL rises. A single one isn't much of a challenge.

Six of them is a "very difficult" EL 8 challenge. Each one only has an AC of 21 (touch 13), but combined has 152 hit points, and attacks at +28 (longsword 1d8+3) or +26 (longbow 1d8). Mirror Image, Cover, and Concealment are the only things that are going to make them miss most 8th-level PC's, and concentrating fire doesn't help whittle their numbers down.

Each one also has a 35% chance to summon another legion devil, adding to the hit point pool, and increasing their attack modifiers even more. The only downer from the Legion Devils' perspective is that they don't have Power Attack.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You're missing attacks of opportunity, which kill one or two PCs. Also the fact that it's supposed to grab people in each claw, not just one. So you're looking at two or three dead PCs minimum, and that assumes people don't follow the monster that just ate their friends. And there just isn't a plan you can have to kill this guy. Your best bet is hoping that the PC he kills round one wasn't your caster, and that your caster prepped glitterdust. Even then you don't have a great shot, because you hit your friends too. Compare that to the allip, where you could totally win if you happened to have a bunch of force damage or if your Barbarian gets a hit in. The counter to big vermin is to kite them, which you can't do at level 3.1. You're assuming PCs do dumb things like run into its threat range or follow it under water to ensure the TPK. PCs can always do dumb things to ensure a TPK. Granted it's easier here, but a smart group should only lose one PC, or at most two.
2. It can't full attack and retreat a significant distance underwater in the same round. If it gets a kill on that first claw attack it's going back under under to eat it, even if it can reach two party members.

Basically, a group can run away from TDC, and TDC won't follow as long as it has a fresh kill to eat. That's what makes it less likely to wipe the party than Allips, or Runehounds, or Meenlocks I guess.

And if we're talking about corner cases like everyone having force damage, you could also be a bunch of super-sneaking darkstalkers with good detection capabilities. That way you see TDC before he sees you, and you just avoid him. That's harder to do with an Allip hanging out in a wall.
Legion Devils are another monster that can be quite overpowered, but only as the EL rises.When you start thinking about how many legion devils comprise an actual legion the numbers start to get silly. Hit on a 2 against anything, guaranteed nat 20 on reflex saves, immune to standard will save effects... Then give them that devil mark that grants fast healing and have the front line ready actions to dimension door away from full attackers, to be extra evil.

They lack Mettle though, so a non-reflex AoE like Doom Scarabs or a sculpted Vortex of Teeth can still ruin their day.

[DaedalusMkV]

I know it's Pathfinder instead of 3.5, but the thought and mechanics carry over very well, so at a troublingly low CR of 2 I present the Medium Negative Energy Elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-negative-energy-tohc/negative-energy-elemental-medium-tohc).

AC19 with an excellent Touch, 30 HP, DR5/-, Elemental Immunities and an excellent Reflex save mean that actually finding something a level 1 party can do to reliably hurt it in any meaningful fashion is difficult. Plus it heals from both Negative and (counter-intuitively, most likely to the players' misfortune) Positive Energy, for the fringe benefit. It's got Initiative at +9, so will almost always win initiative and Fly 60, so it will always get the first strike. It swings at +9 for 2d6+1 damage, plus level drain. That means if it hits a level 1 character, that character is immediately dead with no saves of any kind. Assuming the players do manage to somehow kill it, it then explodes in a 20 foot radius for 2d8 Negative Energy damage, which can easily drop a level 1 character to negative HP.

Even for a level 2 party, permanent level drain on an attack that will hit most characters four times in five is absolutely brutal, especially when it follows up with 8 or 9 regular damage, and its hefty defense and immense speed guarantee that the fight is going to be a long and grueling one, and one the party can't run away from.

In summary, it's a CR2 monster that will almost always TPK a level 1 party and is unlikely to engage a level 2 group without killing or crippling at least one character and can quite possibly TPK them as well. Like the Crab, there's no particular gimmick or trick a low-level group can use to deal with it thanks to immunities and defensive stats, but unlike the Crab it has no reason not to kill the entire group and fights with some limited intelligence. It's not quite as overwhelmingly unbeatable, but at CR2 it's also supposed to be a fairly simple challenge for the level 1 group it kills a member of every time it attacks. Oh, and as the icing on the cake, it has Stealth at +12, so it's exceedingly likely to score a Surprise Round with which to kill a PC from ambush.

[Brova]

1. You're assuming PCs do dumb things like run into its threat range or follow it under water to ensure the TPK. PCs can always do dumb things to ensure a TPK. Granted it's easier here, but a smart group should only lose one PC, or at most two.

Every group of PCs I've seen travels in a fairly tight formation, or at best has a scout out front. That means one of two things happen. In the first case, the crab charges and red mists someone, then everyone else is in its "horrible death" radius and can either attack and die on its turn or retreat and die from an attack of opportunity. Or in the second case, the scout dies and gets eaten, then the same thing happens to the rest of the party.


2. It can't full attack and retreat a significant distance underwater in the same round. If it gets a kill on that first claw attack it's going back under under to eat it, even if it can reach two party members.

Ah, but the flavor text (which is the only reason we're having a debate at all) states that it grabs a morsel in each claw, not just one.


And if we're talking about corner cases like everyone having force damage, you could also be a bunch of super-sneaking darkstalkers with good detection capabilities. That way you see TDC before he sees you, and you just avoid him. That's harder to do with an Allip hanging out in a wall.

That's not defeating the crab though. Those guys still get red misted if the crab attacks them, they're just less likely to be attacked. Compare that to the Warmages, who can just kill the allip no questions asked. Hell, a power attack from an orc barbarian kills the allip if it connects (unlikely I'll admit).

[Socksy]

I know it's Pathfinder instead of 3.5, but the thought and mechanics carry over very well, so at a troublingly low CR of 2 I present the Medium Negative Energy Elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-negative-energy-tohc/negative-energy-elemental-medium-tohc).

AC19 with an excellent Touch, 30 HP, DR5/-, Elemental Immunities and an excellent Reflex save mean that actually finding something a level 1 party can do to reliably hurt it in any meaningful fashion is difficult. Plus it heals from both Negative and (counter-intuitively, most likely to the players' misfortune) Positive Energy, for the fringe benefit. It's got Initiative at +9, so will almost always win initiative and Fly 60, so it will always get the first strike. It swings at +9 for 2d6+1 damage, plus level drain. That means if it hits a level 1 character, that character is immediately dead with no saves of any kind. Assuming the players do manage to somehow kill it, it then explodes in a 20 foot radius for 2d8 Negative Energy damage, which can easily drop a level 1 character to negative HP.

Even for a level 2 party, permanent level drain on an attack that will hit most characters four times in five is absolutely brutal, especially when it follows up with 8 or 9 regular damage, and its hefty defense and immense speed guarantee that the fight is going to be a long and grueling one, and one the party can't run away from.

In summary, it's a CR2 monster that will almost always TPK a level 1 party and is unlikely to engage a level 2 group without killing or crippling at least one character and can quite possibly TPK them as well. Like the Crab, there's no particular gimmick or trick a low-level group can use to deal with it thanks to immunities and defensive stats, but unlike the Crab it has no reason not to kill the entire group and fights with some limited intelligence. It's not quite as overwhelmingly unbeatable, but at CR2 it's also supposed to be a fairly simple challenge for the level 1 group it kills a member of every time it attacks. Oh, and as the icing on the cake, it has Stealth at +12, so it's exceedingly likely to score a Surprise Round with which to kill a PC from ambush.

That is the worst one I've seen so far.

[ComaVision]

Bonus points for the Runehound, because even WotC knew that it was under-CRed and left it there anyway. One of the articles on their site (dealing with CR assignment, amusingly) actually simulates an encounter between a runehound and a standard level 3 party. It ends with them losing the cleric and running away.

...then points out that it has track and a very high survival modifier. :smallamused:

I went looking for this article. It's pretty amusing. (http://www.dndadventure.com/html/articles/art_observation_cr_WOTC.html)

[Endarire]

Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm). Frickin' wights. They're CR3s that can inflict level drain and paralysis. They're also not so obviously painful as 'incorporeal Undead at CR3.' Getting paralyzed means you're more vulnerable to

Ghouls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm). Debatably worse than Wights due to having double digit HP and paralysis on hit for CR1! Elves are immune to their paralysis for some arbitrary and blessed reason. A GM who isn't careful will likely kill a PC or few just because Zombies and Skeletons were too cliche/boring to fight.

Let's just say that Undead, Dragons, and Outsiders are generally the most painful creatures for their CR. Undead have nasty status effects (poison, disease, paralysis, ability damage/drain, negative levels, and some cast spells). Dragons are fliers with lots of HP, lots of attacks, and, generally, lots of spells. Outsiders have spells/SLAs. 'Nough said.

[Brova]

It's not a monster per se, but a trap that casts summon monster IX every round is supposedly CR 10 (1 base + 9 for a 9th level spell). That's right, a trap that summons a CR 12 Leonal every round forever is CR 10.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's not a monster per se, but a trap that casts summon monster IX every round is supposedly CR 10 (1 base + 9 for a 9th level spell). That's right, a trap that summons a CR 12 Leonal every round forever is CR 10.

Of course.

One AMF and you can pretty much just walk straight through that trap with impunity and then have the rogue wreck it. The Leonal's pop out on contact with the AMF and it also suppresses the trap.

Then there is the Rogue just outright sneaking into the location and disabling the trap before you wait a few minutes for the summons to dissipate.

Then there is Suppressing Field set to Summoning to just suppress them all while otherwise leaving magic unaffected.

---
Such a trap really shouldn't take more than a quarter of the daily resources of an ECL 10 party to deal with.

[Brova]

Of course.

One AMF and you can pretty much just walk straight through that trap with impunity and then have the rogue wreck it. The Leonal's pop out on contact with the AMF and it also suppresses the trap.

Then there is the Rogue just outright sneaking into the location and disabling the trap before you wait a few minutes for the summons to dissipate.

Then there is Suppressing Field set to Summoning to just suppress them all while otherwise leaving magic unaffected.

---
Such a trap really shouldn't take more than a quarter of the daily resources of an ECL 10 party to deal with.

antimagic field is 6th level or higher on every single list other than the Runescarred Berserker. You don't have one of those going at 10th level.

Leonals have +17 Spot, and there are seventeen of them at a time. Unless a 10th level Rogue has pushed them all the way off the RNG it's a virtual certainty that one of them will spot him. Of course, the Leonals also get detect thoughts to spot any Rogue that hasn't grabbed Darkstalker.

suppressing field does not strike me as a particularly likely choice to be learned by a Sorcerer or prepared by a Wizard. How many casters are looking to walk around with "win if the enemies go all in on one school of magic" rather than enervation, metamagiced orb of fire, or evard's black tentacles?

Or imagine the CR 4 trap of summon nature's ally set to lions. Or the CR 2 trap of power word pain. Or, use Invisible Spell for extra fun.

[nedz]

It's not a monster per se, but a trap that casts summon monster IX every round is supposedly CR 10 (1 base + 9 for a 9th level spell). That's right, a trap that summons a CR 12 Leonal every round forever is CR 10.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction would be more annoying however — and still CR 10.

[Brova]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction would be more annoying however — and still CR 10.

disjunction is probably nastier in a fight, but there's no way for it to actually kill you. So summon monster IX, particularly with Invisible Spell, gets the nod.

[nedz]

disjunction is probably nastier in a fight, but there's no way for it to actually kill you. So summon monster IX, particularly with Invisible Spell, gets the nod.

Not directly kill you — no, but if it's been set up as a trap then there are plenty of indirect ways this could happen. Also you just lost much of your kit.

[Gemini476]

A CL18 Blasphemy trap is CR8, and is pretty much a guaranteed TPK for a level 8 party unless successfully disarmed.

You could also have something like a non-resetting Gate trap (CR10), or a trap that constantly emits a Prismatic Sphere to protect something inside it (also CR10, although a Prismatic Wall would be CR9). The latter needs Disintegrate to get through layer three - a level 6 spell, usually not available to an ECL 10 party.

Also, the search/disarm checks are DC25+spell level, while the CR is 1+spell level and the skill of an appropriate Rogue is 3+level+Wis/Int+misc bonuses. To simplify it further, you're rolling +Attribute+Misc vs. DC21 when facing a level-appropriate magical trap. Twice, since you need to roll to both find and remove it.

The trap rules have issues.

[Emperor Tippy]

antimagic field is 6th level or higher on every single list other than the Runescarred Berserker. You don't have one of those going at 10th level.
You do if you have a reason to use one. Scrolls are a nice thing that smart parties use.


Leonals have +17 Spot, and there are seventeen of them at a time. Unless a 10th level Rogue has pushed them all the way off the RNG it's a virtual certainty that one of them will spot him. Of course, the Leonals also get detect thoughts to spot any Rogue that hasn't grabbed Darkstalker.
Of course any stealth character worth the name has Darkstalker by level 10. As for +17 to spot, that really isn't that bad. They top out at 37, which means a 38 Hide check is total impunity. That really isn't hard to hit.


suppressing field does not strike me as a particularly likely choice to be learned by a Sorcerer or prepared by a Wizard. How many casters are looking to walk around with "win if the enemies go all in on one school of magic" rather than enervation, metamagiced orb of fire, or evard's black tentacles?
It's one of the best spells in the game. I would honestly prepare it on a wizard before anything you listed and choose it as a spell known on a Sorcerer before any of that as well. You run into the trap and with one action you can effectively negate it.


Or imagine the CR 4 trap of summon nature's ally set to lions. Or the CR 2 trap of power word pain. Or, use Invisible Spell for extra fun.
Yes, and none of them are particularly unreasonable challenges. The party gets screwed if they are stupid but that is a different issue. Permanent Detect Magic is something that anyone who can should pick up at level 9 (as soon as a wizard can cast it), that will detect virtually all magical traps that aren't themselves protected by other magic.

Then there is Arcane Sight, which should be a standard buff on the party scout at this level.

Magical Traps really aren't difficult challenges if your party plays intelligently.

[Brova]

You do if you have a reason to use one. Scrolls are a nice thing that smart parties use.

Sure. But are you really walking around with a scroll of antimagic field most of the time? Bar shenanigans, it forces both you and the monsters to rely on your stats. Unfortunately for you, monsters have better stats than you. And of course, it's rather little help after you've been ganked by invisible summons.


Of course any stealth character worth the name has Darkstalker by level 10. As for +17 to spot, that really isn't that bad. They top out at 37, which means a 38 Hide check is total impunity. That really isn't hard to hit.

Hitting a DC 38 hide check on an 10 requires +28 to hide. Unless your plan is to buy a +10 hide item, I'm going to have to ask how you plan on doing that off of 13 ranks and an attribute bonus.


It's one of the best spells in the game. I would honestly prepare it on a wizard before anything you listed and choose it as a spell known on a Sorcerer before any of that as well. You run into the trap and with one action you can effectively negate it.

Are we reading the same spell? It's a level check to avoid being suppressed, which screws you already because the trap has a caster level of 17 meaning it beats your 10 on a 4 or higher (incidentally, the CR of trap doesn't adjust at all if you scale up its caster level). Even if you can expect to actually suppress spells, it's stacking up against spells that will just kill people (metamagiced damage spells, charm monster), spells that lock down the battlefield (evard's black tentacles, solid fog) and spells that break the entire game (polymorph, charm monster).


Yes, and none of them are particularly unreasonable challenges. The party gets screwed if they are stupid but that is a different issue. Permanent Detect Magic is something that anyone who can should pick up at level 9 (as soon as a wizard can cast it), that will detect virtually all magical traps that aren't themselves protected by other magic.

So just to clarify, you consider a room that appears to be empty, but is in fact full of several dozen invisible lions to be an appropriate challenge for a level 4 party? I know you optimize rather more than most people, but that's ridiculous.

[Zombimode]

Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm). Frickin' wights. They're CR3s that can inflict level drain and paralysis. They're also not so obviously painful as 'incorporeal Undead at CR3.' Getting paralyzed means you're more vulnerable to

Wights don't have a paralysis attack.

[nedz]

Hitting a DC 38 hide check on an 10 requires +28 to hide. Unless your plan is to buy a +10 hide item, I'm going to have to ask how you plan on doing that off of 13 ranks and an attribute bonus.

Ranger 10
Ranks 13, Cloak of Elvenkind +5 competence, Camouflage +10 circumstance and probably some Dex.
You're only a level off getting Forest Fold for another +5 competence.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sure. But are you really walking around with a scroll of antimagic field most of the time? Bar shenanigans, it forces both you and the monsters to rely on your stats. Unfortunately for you, monsters have better stats than you. And of course, it's rather little help after you've been ganked by invisible summons.
Yes, it is one of my first purchases once I get the money on pretty much any character; and no, not for its combat potential. It is one of my first purchases because it lets you just walk through all kinds of otherwise very difficult to deal with magic based problems. Sure, it gets expensive if it is the first response but having it on hand to deal with situations that are otherwise an issue is highly recommended.


Hitting a DC 38 hide check on an 10 requires +28 to hide. Unless your plan is to buy a +10 hide item, I'm going to have to ask how you plan on doing that off of 13 ranks and an attribute bonus.
Invisibility is +20, that plus your 13 ranks and 18 Dex is enough to hit +37 and thus make the 38 Hide check on a 1. A Factotum gets to throw on Brains Over Brawn to put another five to eight points onto the check. The Shadow ability on your armor is +5 for less than 4K GP.


Are we reading the same spell? It's a level check to avoid being suppressed, which screws you already because the trap has a caster level of 17 meaning it beats your 10 on a 4 or higher (incidentally, the CR of trap doesn't adjust at all if you scale up its caster level). Even if you can expect to actually suppress spells, it's stacking up against spells that will just kill people (metamagiced damage spells, charm monster), spells that lock down the battlefield (evard's black tentacles, solid fog) and spells that break the entire game (polymorph, charm monster).
It's a level check to avoid being suppressed for every applicable spell in the area. It is a Caster Level check which means that it is relatively easy for you to boost up to the point where the enemy is likely to fail to make it.

And yeah, I take it before the rest of what you listed precisely because of the rarity of its effect and the general applicability of what it can do. Orb's of death are nice, but there are dozens of good direct damage spells and hundreds of ways to do direct damage to enemies. Battlefield Control is nice but the reason that it is so popular isn't because it is usually the best use of resources but because it is the way that the caster can contribute most without overshadowing the rest of the party. The Charm line is generally only particularly useful when you want to combine it with Hypnotism for poor mans Mind Rape and that is not a combat application generally. The Polymorph line is great and I never said that Suppressing Field is on the same level (actually its usually more useful than Polymorph at higher levels but that is because Shapechange is the only Polymorph school spell you regularly use)


So just to clarify, you consider a room that appears to be empty, but is in fact full of several dozen invisible lions to be an appropriate challenge for a level 4 party? I know you optimize rather more than most people, but that's ridiculous.
Yes. Summons have magical auras and show up on Detect Magic with a round of observation, or on sight to Arcane Sight. Getting a feeling that invisible stuff is present is a DC 20 Spot check, which is fully reasonable for a scout to make. Scent, Tremorsense, or most other alternative senses will also pick them up. And then there is just See Invisibility.

If you aren't checking every room with Detect Magic before you enter it then you deserve to be screwed because you are a party of soon to be dead incompetent adventurers who are about to be yet one more example of why the profession has in excess of a 90% mortality rate.

And once the Lions are detected, they aren't that hard to bypass, negate, or avoid.

[Brova]

Yes, it is one of my first purchases once I get the money on pretty much any character; and no, not for its combat potential. It is one of my first purchases because it lets you just walk through all kinds of otherwise very difficult to deal with magic based problems. Sure, it gets expensive if it is the first response but having it on hand to deal with situations that are otherwise an issue is highly recommended.

That's somewhat reasonable. A lot of the stuff at 10+ is beatable if you have the right tech. That's why I think a lower level version like the CR 4 scores of invisible lions or the CR power word pain is probably more lethal. The absurdity of a CR 10 trap that summons a CR 12 creature is the most ridiculous though.


Invisibility is +20, that plus your 13 ranks and 18 Dex is enough to hit +37 and thus make the 38 Hide check on a 1. A Factotum gets to throw on Brains Over Brawn to put another five to eight points onto the check. The Shadow ability on your armor is +5 for less than 4K GP.

Alright, I will cop to forgetting invisibility entirely. But the leonal has an always on globe of invulnerability which suppresses 3rd level or lower spell. Including invisibility. Yes, you can drop greater invisibility but at that point you can just have the trap summon couatls which can use any 4th level or lower Sorcerer or Cleric spell including see invisibility.


It's a level check to avoid being suppressed for every applicable spell in the area. It is a Caster Level check which means that it is relatively easy for you to boost up to the point where the enemy is likely to fail to make it.

It's a caster level check on their end too. Anything you can do to pump the DC up to absurdity they can do right back. It's a useful spell, but it's very, very narrow.


And yeah, I take it before the rest of what you listed precisely because of the rarity of its effect and the general applicability of what it can do.

You mean, give spells from one school a 50% chance to fail from equal level casters? That's just not very impressive. You have a 50% or better chance to negate the actions of most things in the monster manual just by casting a spell that would kill them.


Orb's of death are nice, but there are dozens of good direct damage spells and hundreds of ways to do direct damage to enemies.

Yes, and there are hundreds of ways to negate some of your opponent's actions: those direct damage spells. I'll give you that suppressing field is way better as a utility spell, but frankly spending your 4th level slot on utility is only really an option if you're a Wizard.


Battlefield Control is nice but the reason that it is so popular isn't because it is usually the best use of resources but because it is the way that the caster can contribute most without overshadowing the rest of the party.

Battlefield control spells on their own aren't great, but when you layer in a DOT effect (particularly an AoE one a la creeping doom or summon swarm) they become incredibly lethal.


The Charm line is generally only particularly useful when you want to combine it with Hypnotism for poor mans Mind Rape and that is not a combat application generally.

The charm line forces people out of combat for longer than the time a diplomacy check takes and makes them friendly. The DC to turn them helpful at that point is 20, which a Wizard can make off cross-classed ranks and cross-classed skill synergy at 10th. A Beguiler can do it at 2nd. charm monster allows anything you encounter with a language and no immunity to be turned into a cohort as soon as combat ends.


The Polymorph line is great and I never said that Suppressing Field is on the same level (actually its usually more useful than Polymorph at higher levels but that is because Shapechange is the only Polymorph school spell you regularly use)

Fair.


Yes. Summons have magical auras and show up on Detect Magic with a round of observation, or on sight to Arcane Sight. Getting a feeling that invisible stuff is present is a DC 20 Spot check, which is fully reasonable for a scout to make. Scent, Tremorsense, or most other alternative senses will also pick them up. And then there is just See Invisibility.

If you aren't checking every room with Detect Magic before you enter it then you deserve to be screwed because you are a party of soon to be dead incompetent adventurers who are about to be yet one more example of why the profession has in excess of a 90% mortality rate.

And once the Lions are detected, they aren't that hard to bypass, negate, or avoid.

Which of those work through a door and are available to a 4th level party? By my count, detect magic gets blocked by a thin sheet of lead, arcane sight is a 3rd level spell, a spot check requires line of sight, alternative senses are foiled by the lions waiting more than 30ft from the door, and see invisibility is once again requires line of sight. Remember that if you can see the lions, they can charge you.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's somewhat reasonable. A lot of the stuff at 10+ is beatable if you have the right tech. That's why I think a lower level version like the CR 4 scores of invisible lions or the CR power word pain is probably more lethal. The absurdity of a CR 10 trap that summons a CR 12 creature is the most ridiculous though.
Again, it is summoning creatures which gives them a whole host of additional weaknesses and counters.


Alright, I will cop to forgetting invisibility entirely. But the leonal has an always on globe of invulnerability which suppresses 3rd level or lower spell. Including invisibility. Yes, you can drop greater invisibility but at that point you can just have the trap summon couatls which can use any 4th level or lower Sorcerer or Cleric spell including see invisibility.
Doesn't work on a Ring of Invisibility. Doesn't work on Invisibility heightened to a 4th level slot. Only covers a 20 foot radius.


It's a caster level check on their end too. Anything you can do to pump the DC up to absurdity they can do right back.
Which assumes that they have the ability to boost it on the fly, assumes that their CL is already comparable to yours, and still forces them to roll for every spell.

It's a useful spell, but it's very, very narrow.
No it is really, really, not. It can suppress an entire school of magic, and you choose what it suppresses at the time of casting it. Without shenanigans and given even a round of prep time it can thoroughly screw over enemy's that are reliant on any kind of magic.


You mean, give spells from one school a 50% chance to fail from equal level casters? That's just not very impressive. You have a 50% or better chance to negate the actions of most things in the monster manual just by casting a spell that would kill them.
It's a (assuming equal CL and no CL boosters) a 50% chance that your enemy burns a spell slot, burns an action, and does absolutely nothing for the round. It's a 50% chance (actually far better) than critical enemy magic items won't work. It's a 50% chance that your enemy can't teleport away. It's a 50% chance that an otherwise exploitable weakness of yours won't be exploited. It's a 50% chance that enemy minions will cease to exist. And so on.


Yes, and there are hundreds of ways to negate some of your opponent's actions: those direct damage spells.
Which are also the spells that are the easiest to deal with and have the most defenses against.


I'll give you that suppressing field is way better as a utility spell, but frankly spending your 4th level slot on utility is only really an option if you're a Wizard.
Spending your fourth level slots on utility is what pretty much any sane general purpose caster does. The only 4th level combat spell seriously worth it for a non purpose specific caster is one of the Orb's (Fire is usually the best choice) and that is just because it is one of the absolute best direct damage spells in the game.


Battlefield control spells on their own aren't great, but when you layer in a DOT effect (particularly an AoE one a la creeping doom or summon swarm) they become incredibly lethal.
They are lethal if your enemies are incompetent idiots. Smart enemies have any of the numerous and varied counters.


The charm line forces people out of combat for longer than the time a diplomacy check takes and makes them friendly. The DC to turn them helpful at that point is 20, which a Wizard can make off cross-classed ranks and cross-classed skill synergy at 10th. A Beguiler can do it at 2nd. charm monster allows anything you encounter with a language and no immunity to be turned into a cohort as soon as combat ends.
Without immunity is the key phrase. Virtually anything worthwhile is immune; hell more than half of the published creatures in D&D 3.0/3.5 are outright immune. It's not a spell that should be in most casters normal playbooks.


Which of those work through a door and are available to a 4th level party? By my count, detect magic gets blocked by a thin sheet of lead, arcane sight is a 3rd level spell, a spot check requires line of sight, alternative senses are foiled by the lions waiting more than 30ft from the door, and see invisibility is once again requires line of sight. Remember that if you can see the lions, they can charge you.
Which goes back to my point that to make the trap an actual issue it needs to have far more than just the trap. As for working through a door; Detect Magic works through all but purpose made doors. And Lion's can't open doors so you can open the door, detect the Lions, and then close the door while you come up with an appropriate method to deal with them. Flight is generally a good idea.

[Flickerdart]

And Lion's can't open doors so you can open the door, detect the Lions, and then close the door while you come up with an appropriate method to deal with them. Flight is generally a good idea.
"Flight" is a funny way of spelling "Wild Empathy and now the entire party has sweet lion mounts".

[ComaVision]

"Flight" is a funny way of spelling "Wild Empathy and now the entire party has sweet, invisible lion mounts".

Fixed that for you, buddy.

[BladeofObliviom]

"Flight" is a funny way of spelling "Wild Empathy and now the entire party has sweet lion mounts".

That might be more handy if the Lions weren't summoned and thus liable to disappear at any second and be replaced by less friendly lions.

[Brova]

Again, it is summoning creatures which gives them a whole host of additional weaknesses and counters.

You mean, a spell the party can't cast yet (antimagic field) and an obscure utility spell (suppressing field)? Significant weaknesses those. Especially compared to the arbitrary number of monsters the trap can summon.


Doesn't work on a Ring of Invisibility. Doesn't work on Invisibility heightened to a 4th level slot. Only covers a 20 foot radius.

No 10th level Rogue is buying a Ring of Invisibility. He's getting a Ring of Blinking for sneak attack. He can have both, but that's nearly his entire WBL. And the 20 foot radius is for each of the arbitrarily many leonals.


Which assumes that they have the ability to boost it on the fly, assumes that their CL is already comparable to yours, and still forces them to roll for every spell.

When you cast the spell you had some caster level. When they cast their spell, they also have some caster level. Given that both of you have access to the same boosts, there's no reason to expect those caster levels to differ on any factor other than your specific build (i.e. being higher level, Archmage high arcana, Master Spellthief). It's a 50% chance to negate spells from a specific school. More if you're higher level than them, less if you're lower.


No it is really, really, not. It can suppress an entire school of magic, and you choose what it suppresses at the time of casting it. Without shenanigans and given even a round of prep time it can thoroughly screw over enemy's that are reliant on any kind of magic.

And which enemies are that? Actual casters don't care because they have more than one school of spells, most monsters have at least two schools, and you have to make the caster level check too. You aren't really selling me on this being better than a spell that just kills whoever's spells you were planning to suppress.


Which are also the spells that are the easiest to deal with and have the most defenses against.

You mean like the defense against suppressing field where you just switch to a different school of magic? suppressing field can make you less likely to lose against one kind of spells per casting. A successful kill spell makes you win against one target per casting.


Spending your fourth level slots on utility is what pretty much any sane general purpose caster does. The only 4th level combat spell seriously worth it for a non purpose specific caster is one of the Orb's (Fire is usually the best choice) and that is just because it is one of the absolute best direct damage spells in the game.

Um, no. 4th level has, among others charm person, enervate, black tentacles and solid fog. That's core only.


They are lethal if your enemies are incompetent idiots. Smart enemies have any of the numerous and varied counters.

Or, you know, if your enemies are monsters out of the monster manual. Also, the phrase "numerous and varied counters" is not an argument in and of itself. You have to back that up with even one example of a counter.


Without immunity is the key phrase. Virtually anything worthwhile is immune; hell more than half of the published creatures in D&D 3.0/3.5 are outright immune. It's not a spell that should be in most casters normal playbooks.

Uh, a 8th level Beguiler can charm monster the CR 26 mountain giant with a 50% or better chance of success. While it's a little lackluster against ranged opponents, it crushes anything you fight in melee for the next 10+ levels. That seems "worthwhile" to me, and it's just the biggest, dumbest brute I found. And remember, once you capture the creature all the defenses against charm stop mattering. Unlike dominate person, being helpful isn't ended by protection from good.


Which goes back to my point that to make the trap an actual issue it needs to have far more than just the trap. As for working through a door; Detect Magic works through all but purpose made doors. And Lion's can't open doors so you can open the door, detect the Lions, and then close the door while you come up with an appropriate method to deal with them. Flight is generally a good idea.

A thin sheet of lead blocks detect magic. One would assume that people designing dungeons know this and put thin sheets of lead in their doors. And you need a round for detect magic to work, which is long enough for the lions to shred whoever happens to be standing in front of the door.

[Venom3053000]

Am going to say

Commoner with chicken infested :smallbiggrin:

[ComaVision]

Am going to say

Commoner with chicken infested :smallbiggrin:

lol I think the thread is mostly staying clear of builds because that's just too easy.

[Flickerdart]

That might be more handy if the Lions weren't summoned and thus liable to disappear at any second and be replaced by less friendly lions.
That just lets you do a sweet trick where you jump on one lion, it disappears, then you land on another lion just as it appears.

[ksbsnowowl]

You mean, a spell the party can't cast yet (antimagic field) and an obscure utility spell (suppressing field)? Significant weaknesses those. Especially compared to the arbitrary number of monsters the trap can summon.
Protection from Evil. The summoned lions can't touch you.

Granted, higher-level summons with SLA's and the like could still do stuff to you, but a 4th level party can very definitely handle a room full of summoned lions.

[BladeofObliviom]

Protection from Evil. The summoned lions can't touch you.

Granted, higher-level summons with SLA's and the like could still do stuff to you, but a 4th level party can very definitely handle a room full of summoned lions.

...My god, you're right. Why the heck didn't I think of that? :smallsigh:

[Brova]

Protection from Evil. The summoned lions can't touch you.

Granted, higher-level summons with SLA's and the like could still do stuff to you, but a 4th level party can very definitely handle a room full of summoned lions.

That's pretty good. Of course, it's single target which is a hangup, but it works pretty well.

[Extra Anchovies]

...My god, you're right. Why the heck didn't I think of that? :smallsigh:

Indeed. Magic Circle never stops being a useful spell. Most 4th-level parties won't have access to it, but Clerics with the Exorcism domain (or Archivists who know one of those clerics) will, and failing that Protection from X works well enough.

[BladeofObliviom]

Custom Magic item of all-day passive Protection from Evil costs 4000 gp, which is well within the WBL of a level 4 party (though perhaps an uncomfortably large chunk of it). It's a great investment if you can't cast the spell yourself, and maybe even if you can.

I think that basically every noncaster I've ever played would have sprung for one of those as soon as it became affordable. :smalleek:

[Brova]

Custom Magic item of all-day passive Protection from Evil costs 4000 gp, which is well within the WBL of a level 4 party (though perhaps an uncomfortably large chunk of it). It's a great investment if you can't cast the spell yourself, and maybe even if you can.

I think that basically every noncaster I've ever played would have sprung for one of those as soon as it became affordable. :smalleek:

Custom items are a whole new barrel of cheese and problem deserve a thread of their own about how broken they are. But yes, protection from evil is pretty damn effective against a summoning trap. Has a little bit of a problem with scaling (it takes four spell slots and four rounds to use), but works very well if you have it.

[Tvtyrant]

Player Classes tend towards the brokenly powerful. I used to have a world conquering Artificer bad guy who had a conveyer belt that carried Wall of Iron walls from a resetting trap to a trap of animate objects and a trap of Permanency to make an infinite army of giant metal monsters. This is really low op, but the Artificer had tens of thousands of them.

[ksbsnowowl]

That's pretty good. Of course, it's single target which is a hangup, but it works pretty well.

Single person affected by Protection from Evil stands in the doorway (the scenario was that the party open a door and find a room full of summoned lions). The lions can't touch him to try and bull rush through. They are stuck in the room where they can't attack the rest of the party.

Also, a wand of PFE is only 750 gp. WELL within the grasp of a 4th level party, and given its broad usefulness, something they really should consider having.

Heck, if you're the DM, and you know the PC's are going to a place that has summon traps, give them the solution, then watch the fools die because they failed to use it. Have an encounter before they get to the summon-dungeon where the foe they defeat has on him a wand of Protection from Good, with only a few charges left on it.

PFG will prevent touch by summoned creatures just as well as PFE. But 75% of parties would still fail to realize they have the solution in their party loot.

[DaedalusMkV]

Wights (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm). Frickin' wights. They're CR3s that can inflict level drain and paralysis. They're also not so obviously painful as 'incorporeal Undead at CR3.' Getting paralyzed means you're more vulnerable to

Ghouls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm). Debatably worse than Wights due to having double digit HP and paralysis on hit for CR1! Elves are immune to their paralysis for some arbitrary and blessed reason. A GM who isn't careful will likely kill a PC or few just because Zombies and Skeletons were too cliche/boring to fight.

Let's just say that Undead, Dragons, and Outsiders are generally the most painful creatures for their CR. Undead have nasty status effects (poison, disease, paralysis, ability damage/drain, negative levels, and some cast spells). Dragons are fliers with lots of HP, lots of attacks, and, generally, lots of spells. Outsiders have spells/SLAs. 'Nough said.

This is an excellent illustration of what makes the stupid Negative Energy Elemental so broken. Compare it with a Wight, and you'll note that it is better in every conceivable respect at 1 less CR. More HP, better AC, better saves, better movement (double the speed with Perfect Flight!), better skills, better immunities, six points more Attack Bonus, double the damage not including Level Drain, Damage Reduction and a death explosion, plus not being vulnerable to anti-Undead tactics and having +8 Initiative over the Wight.

A Wight is really only deadly to a first-level party, and then only because every hit is an instant kill. A level 3 party will almost certainly defeat it before it does anything at all because it's got terrible AC and an unimpressive HP count with no special defenses. Its attack bonus is bad enough that it will almost always miss any character who's invested in AC by that point, and still can't reliably hit people with AC13, which should be roughly the floor for AC by level 3. Two of them might get a Negative Level or two onto the PCs, but won't kill them. Two Negative Energy Elementals, an EL4 fight? Probably going to kill the whole level 3 group, unless their spellcasters are really on the ball.

Ghouls, though? Not as bad as most of the stuff already posted, but they are legitimately very dangerous. One bad roll and a nasty Coup de Grace and your character is dead. Definitely one of the more dangerous CR1 opponents because of that paralysis and the powerful Full Attack routine, somewhere very close behind the level 1 Orc Barbarian with a Greataxe and the Elite Array.

[Venger]

Ghouls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm). Debatably worse than Wights due to having double digit HP and paralysis on hit for CR1! Elves are immune to their paralysis for some arbitrary and blessed reason.

There's actually an explanation for this:

back before even OD&D, there was a wargame called chainmail. it was similar to 40k, where you maneuvered units on a map and had a certain number of points for your army to spend on doods.

elves were like protoss: really expensive, but theoretically powerful. ghouls were like zergs: weak, but strong in numbers, especially due to their paralysis ability that prevented enemies from acting.

in practice, no one wanted to use the elves because they got demolished and then outactioned by ghouls, so it was changed to say "elves are immune to ghoul paralysis, so there"

this was ported into OD&D and has stayed with us in every edition of the game since.

that's why (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3rhQc666Sg)

[Necroticplague]

There's actually an explanation for this:

back before even OD&D, there was a wargame called chainmail. it was similar to 40k, where you maneuvered units on a map and had a certain number of points for your army to spend on doods.

elves were like protoss: really expensive, but theoretically powerful. ghouls were like zergs: weak, but strong in numbers, especially due to their paralysis ability that prevented enemies from acting.

in practice, no one wanted to use the elves because they got demolished and then outactioned by ghouls, so it was changed to say "elves are immune to ghoul paralysis, so there"

this was ported into OD&D and has stayed with us in every edition of the game since.

that's why (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3rhQc666Sg)

Thus teaching an important lesson that would remain true through almost every edition of DnD since: action economy wins battles unless you figure out how to no-sell your enemies action (essentially making their action economy spending not as good).

[Story]

Custom items are a whole new barrel of cheese and problem deserve a thread of their own about how broken they are. But yes, protection from evil is pretty damn effective against a summoning trap. Has a little bit of a problem with scaling (it takes four spell slots and four rounds to use), but works very well if you have it.

The Banner of Law from Heroes of Battle is an actual printed item that gives continual Protection From Chaos for only 8k. And it applies to all nonchaotic allies within 30 feet that can see it. (There are of course adaptations for the other 3 alignments).

[Brova]

The Banner of Law from Heroes of Battle is an actual printed item that gives continual Protection From Chaos for only 8k. And it applies to all nonchaotic allies within 30 feet that can see it. (There are of course adaptations for the other 3 alignments).

Not really the point. Whether there exists some particular item that exists which matches the nominal outputs of the magic item creation system has little impact on their balance. The magic item creation rules are obviously broken and fairly hilariously so. For example, bracers of armor +4 costs 16,000 GP whereas continuous mage armor, which also provides a +4 armor bonus to AC, costs only 2,000 GP. Regardless of which you believe is priced appropriately, one of those things is priced hilariously wrong. Even accounting for the CL difference, bracers of armor are still 2,000 GP over.

Of course, that's just the one trick. You could also pull out all the bonus types to get a +2 competence bonus, a +2 luck bonus, a +2 sacred bonus, a +2 profane bonus, and a +2 morale bonus to whatever skill for one fifth the price of a single +10 bonus. Or you could use cost reduction tricks to get gear for ludicrous prices. Magic item creation does not produced balanced results and the fact that WotC thought something vaguely similar to a custom item was appropriate for twice the price is in no way an indication that it does.

[Story]

I agree and ignore the custom item pricing rules entirely. Which is why I was so happy to find a printed continuous Protection from X item.

Since it's from HoB, it has weird rules about being used as a standard in battle, but if you treat it similarly to the Banner of Storm's Eye in MiC, then you can just put it on a frame and carry it in the shoulder slot.