Is Magic Initiate Wasted On The Paladin?

[newsman77]

I'm curious whether Magic Initiate is wasted on a paladin build. My concept is a 1st level Sword & Board OoA human paladin who watched his parents get eaten by a gelatinous cube, so he forms a sort of "Monster Hunter" business to weed out dangerous critters in the nearby towns and dungeons (which just happens to take me to the Temple of Elemental Evil).

I planned to dabble a little in warlock, but it's hard to find a break point for the paladin because the levels are really good. Upon reading Magic Initiate, it seems I can pick up Eldritch Blast + 1 other cantrip (to shore up my ranged weakness) and also get Hex for those big boss fights (granted it's once a day). Is that just wasting my bonus feat for variant human?? Should I just go with Half-Elf instead for the race?

What are your thoughts?

[PhantomRenegade]

Might not, have you considered thrown weapons to shore up your ranged attacks, handaxes are pretty legit.

[newsman77]

Might not, have you considered thrown weapons to shore up your ranged attacks, handaxes are pretty legit.

I did... those and javelins. They're pretty solid as I've used Javelins before. I kinda like the Hex for the added 1d6 damage a hit. If I somehow picked up Shield Master later.. I could give the BBEG disadvantage on his checks to oppose my shove, without sacrificing smite usage. Those are the thoughts running through my head, but with no re-training like in 4th, I'm hesitant to try it out, because if I don't like it... I'm stuck.

[rhouck]

I think that's too situational to spend a feat on. I've found the Paladin to work well with just javelins, as your goal is usually to close the gap quickly and keep in front of your companions (at least the squishy ones).

Remember that Hex is a concentration spell. The bonus 1d6 and possible ability penalty synergy with shield master is nice... but is it better than casting Bless and getting +1d4 to every attack and save for you and two teammates (maybe, if you can always keep the BBEG prone and lots of melee buddies, but not if you have mostly ranged friends)? Will it be better than Beacon of Hope? Will it be better than being able to nova with regular smites stacked on to your divine smites?

A lot of those questions depend on party makeup and the style of encounters your DM throws at you. If you start most encounters from 120+ feet away, then you'll get good mileage out of Eldritch Blast. But if you're usually crawling through dungeons and coming upon monsters at 30 feet or less, then it will get little use.

Personally, if you know you want to get shield master, then grab that first. Play through a few levels and then see if grabbing the magic initiate feat later is worth it.

[coredump]

Not worth it IMO. EB gives you range, but if you are using range, you are doing it wrong. Use Dash, or toss a javelin. Yes, there will be a few times when having EB would be worthwhile...but not often enough to warrant a feat.
Hex is nice to have..... but again. 1/day.... maybe not worth a feat. (Could go vengeance for Hunter's Mark)

If you are looking for Vuman feats, pick up Heavy Armor Master or Shield Master.


Oh, I also keep thinking about Warlock (or maybe Sorc), but I just can't find a good break point.... Probably not until at least after Pal11.

[Submortimer]

I'm curious whether Magic Initiate is wasted on a paladin build. My concept is a 1st level Sword & Board OoA human paladin who watched his parents get eaten by a gelatinous cube, so he forms a sort of "Monster Hunter" business to weed out dangerous critters in the nearby towns and dungeons (which just happens to take me to the Temple of Elemental Evil).

I planned to dabble a little in warlock, but it's hard to find a break point for the paladin because the levels are really good. Upon reading Magic Initiate, it seems I can pick up Eldritch Blast + 1 other cantrip (to shore up my ranged weakness) and also get Hex for those big boss fights (granted it's once a day). Is that just wasting my bonus feat for variant human?? Should I just go with Half-Elf instead for the race?

What are your thoughts?

So, I just used a rather fun Paladin/warlock build in a game last night, and he fared quite well even without using hex:

Half Elf Oath of Ancients Paladin 5/Archfey Tome Warlock 3
Feat: Polearm Master (taken at pal 4)
Fighting style: Dueling
Tome Cantrips: Shilegilegh, Thorn Whip, Sacred Flame
Warlock Cantrips: Far Hand, Eldritch Blast
Invocations: Agonizing blast, Devil's Sight

Used Half-Plate and a shield and used a "Wooden sword" (Quarterstaff). Tome Cantrips use Charisma as the casting stat (Confirmed by Mearles), so combat usually went like this:
Round 1: Bonus action Shilegilegh, Move in, Attack twice for 2d8+14 damage (Smite as needed)
Round 2: Bonus Action Hex, Attack twice for 2d8+2d6+14 damage
Round 3: Attack three times for 2d8+1d4+3d6+21 damage
Continue till everything is dead.

My table DOES use a rather high Standard array (18 16 14 12 10 8), and with a half elf I had my charisma at 20 right of the bat. That being said, using Shilegilegh in this way means that you have now turned Charisma into your stat for Melee attacks, Ranged Attacks, and Saves (once you take that 6th level of paladin); plus, it doesn't require concentration, so you can stack it with Hex. As well, if you stick with half plate, your strength score hardly matters and you only need a 14 or so dex to get to a 19 AC. With a standard array of 17 15 14 12 10 8 (half elf bonuses added in), You're already there with dex and almost to the Cha cap.

Recommendations:
1: First level: Paladin. High starting HP, Armor, shields, and weapon proficiencies. Suck it up with a rapier for now. Be a Folk Hero, so you can build your legend of greatness.
2: Level 2-4: Warlock. Lean on EB for most of your damage dealing till you get your tome, then switch to your Stick of Beating.
3: Level 5-14: Paladin. You will be behind the others when it comes to Melee damage till you get that second attack, (Around level 8 with this build), but after that you are a bona-fide Melee Monster.

At the level 14 point, your melee rounds look something like this: 3 attacks, 5d8+3d6+1d4+21 (avg 56.5 damage), and that's before you smite, with nothing more than a stick.

Should you need it, there are a few other good tricks you can do with this build:
- You have 2nd level Warlock Spells, use Darkness+Devils Sight (And eventually sentinel) to lock down a troublesome opponent
- You have A full strength Eldritch Blast to use at your leisure when you can't get to the guy you need dead.
- Thorn Whip + Polearm master: Pull him into range, then use your bonus action to attack him with the butt of your "Sword"

[DireSickFish]

If you really want to add range to your paladin take the Charger feat. It will allow you to close the distance and still get an attack off, which you can then smite on. That and javalins should see you home. Plus you'll probably have squishy party members that are good at the whole range thing.

[D.U.P.A.]

But is not Shilelagh Wis based since it is a druid spell?

[Submortimer]

But is not Shilelagh Wis based since it is a druid spell?

It's a special effect of getting the spell from Pact of the Tome. The cantrips you get become part of your spell list and use your spellcasting modifier, unlike Magic Initiate which specifically states that you use the original class's spellcasting stat. There's a tweet on Sage Advice that talks about it.

[D.U.P.A.]

I guess Magic stone could be chosen as a cantrip for a ranged attack, because you use it like a weapon, you can make use of your extra attack feature and add your charisma modifier unlike other cantrips without class specific features. Although the range is rather limited, 60 ft, but it could be enough in most of the cases.

[ruy343]

Have you considered the oft-overlooked sorcerer for your magic initiate feat? That would open up a whole realm of other possible interesting spells (perhaps thaumaturgy and shocking grasp (to avoid opportunity attacks)) would be helpful, depending on your build. As for first level spells, you can honestly never go wrong with an abjuration or two (like Shield or feather fall). You'll get plenty of damaging things as a paladin later on (along with class abilities that sort of replace your cantrips), so perhaps it would be helpful to get a spell or two that fills the non-combat gaps.

Alternatively, you could get a few cleric spells that accomplish the same, but don't rely on your ability score (think guidance, bless, maybe healing word for a ranged heal). Most buffs give a straight boost that isn't reliant on your ability score, so they would be just as useful to you as to a character that had dedicated themselves to those abilities.