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Mr. Mask
2015-06-04, 08:46 PM
I've often wondered how mermaids might move about on land. In Tactics Ogre, their tails sort of sway and slither as they move on land, without aid from their hands. It made me wonder if some kind of slithering motion might be possible. They couldn't slither like snakes, not unless their scales were designed for it the way snakes' are. But could they manage some kind of slithering motion to get around on land?

Vitruviansquid
2015-06-04, 08:55 PM
Depends on the mermaid.

Keltest
2015-06-04, 09:11 PM
If youre thinking the traditional fish tail woman body mermaid, I would say yes, but it would not be a serious means of propulsion. They lack the muscles for it. They would crawl, and the slithering would be incidental or barely helpful.

MonochromeTiger
2015-06-04, 09:15 PM
It would depend on their tail. If it's a traditional dolphin or fish tailed one then no they wouldn't be able to slither, likely they would have to get around in a series of small "hops" like a fish flopping around. That kind of body structure doesn't lend itself to movement on land at all.

If it is a dolphin or fish tailed mermaid with fins on their tail they may be able to use those to drag themselves along the ground. It would likely be as uncomfortable as it sounds with all of the scales of their tail being dragged across whatever the ground or floor consists of and scraping against things.

Finally if it's one with a long serpentine tail, at which point it begs the question of if they're even a mermaid at all or a lamia or perhaps a variation of naga with arms, they would be able to slither.

Necroticplague
2015-06-04, 10:22 PM
Not really. Fish have very little of their surface area along the bottom of their body. So if a mermaid was on land, it couldn't even support itself without hands, much less move (just like why actual fish end up on their sides). Compare a snake to a fish, snakes have much more of their stomach on the ground.

Of note, there are some fish that can walk on land. They do so by basically using their front fins as proto-legs/arms to drag/throw themselves along. To a suffeciently strong of upper-body mermaid could acheive some semblance of locomotion by grabbing the ground and then pulling itself hard enough to launch it into the air (much like what a mudskipper does, though square-cubed likely renders this energy-inefficient for larger organisms).

goto124
2015-06-05, 06:33 AM
Square-cube law doesn't apply to fantasy creatures, silly! :smalltongue:

Also, sea snake mermaid.

Yora
2015-06-05, 06:40 AM
Maybe something like a seal. Though not as graceful as a snake.

hamishspence
2015-06-05, 06:46 AM
The Ingo novels have "seal-style merfolk" at least - warm-blooded and not covered in scales.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-05, 07:22 AM
Eels and other fish can do it and they don't have snake scales. You'd think a sapient creature would be able to figure out a way, even if they weren't very good at it. Sideways inchworming could work.

In D&D at least, they have a land movement speed listed. They don't lose their DEX bonus to AC or lose the use of their hands like someone using the Climb skill does, so presumably they can maneuver somewhat with just their tails.

Unless by slither, you are talking about rapid locomotion?

Lord Torath
2015-06-05, 07:25 AM
Not really. Fish have very little of their surface area along the bottom of their body. So if a mermaid was on land, it couldn't even support itself without hands, much less move (just like why actual fish end up on their sides). Compare a snake to a fish, snakes have much more of their stomach on the ground.

Of note, there are some fish that can walk on land. They do so by basically using their front fins as proto-legs/arms to drag/throw themselves along. To a suffeciently strong of upper-body mermaid could acheive some semblance of locomotion by grabbing the ground and then pulling itself hard enough to launch it into the air (much like what a mudskipper does, though square-cubed likely renders this energy-inefficient for larger organisms).Most mermaids in fantasy and D&D have lower halves more like whales/dolphins, with horizontal flukes, despite being covered in scales. They could probably move about on land about as well as sea lions. (No, not Sea Lions (http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00257.php)! The RL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion) kind!)

Admiral Squish
2015-06-05, 08:09 AM
I dunno, it depends on the flukes. For one, are they paddle-like or fish-like?

Paddle-like flukes might allow some mobility. For example, sea lions, who can rotate their flippers forward to sorta stand on them. Dolphin and whale are less effective by far, but could possibly perform something like seals, sort of rhythmically worming in the general direction they wish to go.

Fish-like is more challenging. I don't think most fish-fins could support such a creature out of water, there would be too great a risk to the membranes. Perhaps if they had pectoral fins (which might make them more like fish-taurs than mermaids), they might be able to pull off a catfish-esque waddle. without involving their upper bodies. It would kinda look like slithering from a distance, but it's a little more exaggerated. Check out some videos of walking fish, you'll get the idea.

Necroticplague
2015-06-05, 08:32 AM
Most mermaids in fantasy and D&D have lower halves more like whales/dolphins, with horizontal flukes, despite being covered in scales. They could probably move about on land about as well as sea lions. (No, not Sea Lions (http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00257.php)! The RL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lion) kind!)

Fair enough. However, I would like to note that sea lions do use their front flippers to walk around on land, so a mermaid moving like them would have its hands occupied. Horizontal flukes would allow them to go with an 'inchworm' style movement, at the very least (though this is, again, fairly slow).

Fri
2015-06-05, 09:24 AM
I actually also used to wonder how mermaids move in land, especially in games like pathfinder where there's a mermaid playable race and it got something like 5 feet move per round in land, as opposed to 20 or 30 of normal land dwelling race. It says how fast it can move, but not how!

But I wonder no more.

I've figured out how mermaids move on land.

http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/29p06/

(or in fantasy world, magic I guess. All mermaid who seriously want to travel on land got some magical way for it, like polymorph-leg-on-self magic/item or something. Serious human adventurers don't just dive into water and waddle there, right?)

JAL_1138
2015-06-05, 09:52 AM
Serious human adventurers don't just dive into water and waddle there, right?

No, serious adventurers avoid water like the plague, because it's safer to stroll through the front doors of Hell. Literal Hell, as in, "where Asmodeus and the other Baatezu live." In AD&D, water = bad.

Honest Tiefling
2015-06-05, 10:30 AM
Selkies are pretty much like mermaids, but are half seal. Seals...Are very bad at land based movement. Imagine an adorable overweight cigar trying to flop its way anywhere. Small wonder that these ladies decided to go 'Screw this, I'm getting legs' despite how badly that usually worked out for them.

Sea Lions, however, for...Your average marine mammal, do pretty well on land. Well, if you throw otters and polar bears out of the equation, anyway. However, a seal is not a sea lion, and might look a tad odd, given that their legs are different and not really in the traditional mermaid configuration.

You might wish to go the Selkie route, and give them legs once out of water. Water Dependency and other traits can make it a bad idea to get too far from water, or they could take ability score penalties because they are not as used to things on land if you really need balance of some sort.

Segev
2015-06-05, 11:28 AM
Usually, merfolk are depicted as hand-walking and dragging their fish-tails behind them when depicted moving about on land. (At least, in versions where they don't magically transform tails into legs.)

That would be reasonable for D&D/PF's 5 ft. land speed.


In a game where the mermaids are magical nemeses of the magical girls of the setting, I've seen the Ningyou conjure columns of water in which they suspend themselves.

Necroticplague
2015-06-05, 11:36 AM
Usually, merfolk are depicted as hand-walking and dragging their fish-tails behind them when depicted moving about on land. (At least, in versions where they don't magically transform tails into legs.).

Which seems like pretty much how it has to work, given all the animals we've discussed having similar abilities of land-water locomotion (catfish, mudskippers, seals, sea lions) all have some form of front limb used in their Terrestrial locomotion.

TheThan
2015-06-05, 12:18 PM
you’re doing it the stupid way around (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc20oTkd1S4)

Segev
2015-06-05, 02:30 PM
you’re doing it the stupid way around (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc20oTkd1S4)

For those of us unable to go to youtube at the moment, what's that a video of?

Knaight
2015-06-05, 02:45 PM
It depends on the specifics of how you have them imagined. Personally, I would consider most depictions likely better at flopping around than slithering.


For those of us unable to go to youtube at the moment, what's that a video of?

A Red Dwarf clip involving a mermaid with a fish top half and human legs.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-05, 03:00 PM
I think we're ignoring the more important question about mermaids here:

If fatty tissue is buoyant, then those seashells don't really provide support -- they're for holding everything down, right?

Psyren
2015-06-05, 03:22 PM
In Pathfinder, Merfolk have access to the Strongtail (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk) racial, which lets them slither about on land at 15ft. Without that, their land speed is an extremely glacial 5ft./round.

DigoDragon
2015-06-05, 03:28 PM
Square-cube law doesn't apply to fantasy creatures, silly!

It really just doesn't apply to any creature incapable of understanding it.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l281/DR_and_GZ/scan0002.jpg



I've figured out how mermaids move on land.
http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/29p06/

Huh, I was actually thinking of a really similar idea I saw elsewhere. But if mermaids are intelligent I don't see why they can't do this. XD

TheThan
2015-06-05, 06:37 PM
I briefly played a mermaid that live inside a Huge water elemental.

it was a giant ball that rolled around with my character inside it.

Vknight
2015-06-05, 10:48 PM
Maybe something like a seal. Though not as graceful as a snake.

Great thanks Yora now I have the image of the Selkie morph from Eclipse phase in my head as what mermaids look like

Segev
2015-06-08, 04:11 PM
I briefly played a mermaid that live inside a Huge water elemental.

it was a giant ball that rolled around with my character inside it.

In a modern-ish setting, a merfolk could have a "land-assist" vehicle that's a big fishbowl with wheels or legs. ...maybe more steampunk than modern-ish. I suppose modern-ish would be less glamourous and just be a wheelchair with a simple sheath for the tail.

Blake Hannon
2015-06-09, 10:47 AM
Depends. Do you want them to be a playable race? If so, you'll have to give them a land speed. I'd recommend describing their lower torsos as being along the lines of Warcraft nagas, with more snake/eel like features than finfish ones. Alternately, do what some others have suggested and give them an extra set of paddle-like limbs around the waist area so they can move like sea lions.


I briefly played a mermaid that live inside a Huge water elemental.

it was a giant ball that rolled around with my character inside it.

That is amazing.

Segev
2015-06-09, 10:49 AM
I've been tempted to play a Merfolk druid who relied on an animal companion at first, then fins to feet later, and later still something like the water elemental idea to get around. But the +1 LA just always made me shy away from it because, frankly, it put off the ability to DO any of the mitigating tricks for just that much too long. ^^;

Blake Hannon
2015-06-09, 10:59 AM
I've been tempted to play a Merfolk druid who relied on an animal companion at first, then fins to feet later, and later still something like the water elemental idea to get around. But the +1 LA just always made me shy away from it because, frankly, it put off the ability to DO any of the mitigating tricks for just that much too long. ^^;

Why do merfolk even have LA? Do they have any advantages over a normal human or dorf in situations that don't involve being underwater?

Segev
2015-06-09, 11:03 AM
Why do merfolk even have LA? Do they have any advantages over a normal human or dorf in situations that don't involve being underwater?

Not really; certainly nothing that couldn't be house-ruled away. (They have a net-positve statline of +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int.) But I suspect being amphibious (in the sense that they can breathe water and air) is considered enough that they "shouldn't" be a LA +0 race.

Technically, a merfolk on land has a speed of 5 ft., and even more technically no rules say they can't carry things in their hands while doing so.

Blake Hannon
2015-06-09, 11:06 AM
Not really; certainly nothing that couldn't be house-ruled away. (They have a net-positve statline of +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int.) But I suspect being amphibious (in the sense that they can breathe water and air) is considered enough that they "shouldn't" be a LA +0 race.

Technically, a merfolk on land has a speed of 5 ft., and even more technically no rules say they can't carry things in their hands while doing so.

Yeah, considering the numerous minor perks that the other races get I don't think a net +2 stat boost should be considered overpowered.

Merpeople (called "merrow" locally) are one of the major races in the campaign I'm currently running, with homebrew racial stats. Its a houseruled 4E game, but I can convert them easily enough if you're interested.

Segev
2015-06-09, 11:13 AM
Yeah, considering the numerous minor perks that the other races get I don't think a net +2 stat boost should be considered overpowered.

Merpeople (called "merrow" locally) are one of the major races in the campaign I'm currently running, with homebrew racial stats. Its a houseruled 4E game, but I can convert them easily enough if you're interested.

The offer is appreciated, but I haven't prospects to play such a character any time soon and would probably work with any DM that would let me play such a character to modify things for the game ourselves, anyway. But thank you.

Aside from "LAs are sometimes weird/broken," my main point in bringing it up is agreeing that the merfolk-in-a-water-elemental is cool, so much so that I'd enjoy playing something similar at some point.

goto124
2015-06-09, 11:17 AM
Pretty sure it's cool in-universe as well.

'I love my hamster ball!'

Lord Torath
2015-06-09, 12:16 PM
Depends. Do you want them to be a playable race? If so, you'll have to give them a land speed. I'd recommend describing their lower torsos as being along the lines of Warcraft nagas, with more snake/eel like features than finfish ones. Alternately, do what some others have suggested and give them an extra set of paddle-like limbs around the waist area so they can move like sea lions.Oh, see I always assumed they'd need to use their human arms combined with their tail flukes/fins to lurch around like sea lions. Not that they could keep their human-half upright and useful while lurching around on land. There's a reason they tend to stay in the water...

Psyren
2015-06-09, 06:46 PM
Why do merfolk even have LA? Do they have any advantages over a normal human or dorf in situations that don't involve being underwater?

They don't in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk) so you can just ask to play that version.

Rainbownaga
2015-06-09, 08:15 PM
Also, sea snake mermaid.

Melusine make the best mermaids anyway.

Segev
2015-06-10, 09:49 AM
They don't in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk) so you can just ask to play that version.

Interestingly, they also lack the "amphibious" quality, so their [aquatic] subtype means they cannot breathe air!

Psyren
2015-06-10, 06:05 PM
Interestingly, they also lack the "amphibious" quality, so their [aquatic] subtype means they cannot breathe air!

ARG 194:

"Other Racial Traits

Amphibious: Merfolk are amphibious, but prefer not to spend long periods out of the water."

Mr. Mask
2015-06-10, 06:11 PM
If mermaids weren't amphibious, could they take a huff from their water skin, periodically? Of course, they'd also have to sponge down their body regularly with the correct water, to avoid some nasty drying out effects.

Segev
2015-06-10, 06:48 PM
ARG 194:

"Other Racial Traits

Amphibious: Merfolk are amphibious, but prefer not to spend long periods out of the water."

Ah, if that was in the SRD entry, I did not see it. Either way, ARG is valid source material.

Psyren
2015-06-10, 08:47 PM
Ah, if that was in the SRD entry, I did not see it. Either way, ARG is valid source material.

Special qualities are listed a little differently in Pathfinder but yeah, it's there. (Both the ARG race entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk), and the Bestiary statblock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/merfolk).)

runeghost
2015-06-10, 11:06 PM
Depends. Do you want them to be a playable race? If so, you'll have to give them a land speed. I'd recommend describing their lower torsos as being along the lines of Warcraft nagas, with more snake/eel like features than finfish ones. Alternately, do what some others have suggested and give them an extra set of paddle-like limbs around the waist area so they can move like sea lions.

My first thought was Warcraft naga, too. Definitely snakey and slitherable.