Build Challenge - Hideous Blow Warlock

[justiceforall]

For those of you that like difficult challenges: I'm curious to see what people would do to make the least-bad "Hideous Blow" Warlock. The only requirement is that the Hideous Blow invocation is the primary combat-schtick of the character.

Basic rules would be to just use the same allowed material list as Iron Chef (for consistency if nothing else). No scores or rankings or anything, just a place to flex your character creation muscles when given a restriction. I'm barely familiar with the Warlock at all, so this will be interesting for me regardless.

Please save your "but this is terrible" commentary - that's the point. Make the most out of what you have, even if it isn't much!

Any takers?

[dextercorvia]

Try combining it with a reach weapon to avoid AoOs. You can turn it back into a touch attack by making a trip attempt. Anything that boosts EB damage, like Hellfire Warlock will help.

[BladeofObliviom]

Alright, I'll take a swing at it.

The obvious issue with Hideous Blow is that it doesn't allow you to full attack, making it a poor choice for a melee type just looking for a little bonus damage, and due to its lack of range and not-touch-attack-ness, is poor for caster and ranged types too. Also, IIRC using it technically triggers an enemy AoO, which is...unfortunate.

But hey, we can maybe work around it a little. Mounted Combat generally only allows the rider to take a standard action attack anyway, and dexter suggested using a reach weapon (like, you know, a lance) to avoid AoOs anyway so perhaps a stylish Warlock lancer can pull this sort of thing off. Plus, since we're a Warlock, we can just take The Dead Walk at CL 6 and raise our own mount, which is nice, since that's about when regular mounts become ultra-dead in standard combats. So that's a way to make Hideous Blow actually an effective part of a build, if not necessarily the most effective thing about it. What else can we do?

Well, one thing about riding a mount is that it frees up your move actions. So the Fearsome Armor enchantment might not be a bad idea here; we threaten at a relatively long range, so picking up Never Outnumbered and Imperious Command isn't a bad idea to help deal with groups and keep enemies from fighting back.

In fact, if we're going to go Hellfire Warlock anyway (and we really should), we might look into picking up a couple more skill tricks and taking Uncanny Trickster to extend Hellfire Warlock's progression some. A level of Binder for Naberius also lets us sneak around the drawback of Hellfire Warlock a little bit too. For that matter, if we're already binding Naberius, taking some levels of warlock (I.E. Beguiling Influence), and investing skill points for Skill Tricks, we can probably serve as a solid party face too.

I'm thinking something along these lines:

Race: Human (Str ?, Dex ?, Con: 11+/odd, Int 12+, Wis ?, Cha 15+)

1: Warlock 1 [Summon Swarm, swap for Hideous Blow later]
2: Human Paragon 1
3: Warlock 2 [Beguiling Influence]
4: Warlock 3
5: Binder 1 (Bind: Naberius)
6: Warlock 4 [Baleful Utterance]
7: Human Paragon 2 (adv: Warlock)
8: Human Paragon 3 (adv: Warlock) [Brimstone Blast]
9: Uncanny Trickster 1
10: Hellfire Warlock 1
11: Hellfire Warlock 2 [The Dead Walk]
12: Hellfire Warlock 3
13: Uncanny Trickster 2 (adv: Hellfire Warlock) [Flee the Scene]
14: Uncanny Trickster 3 (adv: Hellfire Warlock)

Depending on exact feat choices it may be wiser to take extra invocation for Brimstone Blast at level 9 to qualify for Hellfire Warlock and take The Dead Walk ASAP instead. Still, though exact placement would depend on whether flaws were allowed, the feats I'd go for would be Able Learner, Something Else, Mounted Combat, and Imperious Command, roughly in that order.

Levels 15-20 can pretty much be filled with whatever, though note that we've lost 3 caster levels via uncanny trickster, binder, and human paragon. If all 6 of those levels are full casting progression though, we still get a Dark Invocation and 8d6 Eldritch Blast (plus 10d6 Hellfire Blast). You can also miss one more caster level and still get the Dark Invocation, if whatever you're trading for the caster level is worth 1d6 eldritch blast. In a situation of total freedom I'd probably go for Legacy Champion to extend Hellfire Warlock some more, but whatever works works.

Anyway, what we've got here is a fairly charismatic figure, and capable of serving as a great party face by level 5 and able to support the party with some ranged damage and utility skills. By level 15 they're basically riding around, wreathed in flame, kneecapping foes with a thermite-tipped lance and cackling as they do quite a bit of spike damage.



Admittedly Hideous Blow itself is somewhat incidental in this build (in fact, in a lot of ways, you'd probably be better off staying at range and pelting folks with regular old Eldritch Blasts), but you asked for a build that uses it as its main deal in combat and doesn't blow hideously, so here's my attempt.



EDIT: I'm silly and forgot that you can't trip with a lance. This works just as well with a Guisarme though. (Human Paragon 1 gives any one martial weapon proficiency for free, it doesn't really matter which.)

[Troacctid]

Attacking with a sugliin is normally a full-round action. Hideous Blow reduces it to a standard action. So if your build uses a sugliin for some strange reason, Hideous Blow does some work. It's even a reach weapon to help you avoid opportunity attacks.

[Dread_Head]

Hideous blow requires only a standard action so lets you move which combos nicely with scout. Something like

Scout 1 / Warlock 4 / Scout +2 / Dragon Devotee 3 / Unseen Seer 7 / Hellfire Warlock 3 (these can be moved earlier)

would work quite well. Key feats are Practised Spellcaster (Warlock), Improved Skirmish and Flyby Attack (either at 12th level after getting Fell Flight or earlier with other methods of flight).

You have 5d6 skirmish damage which increases to 7d6 with Improved Skirmish. An 8d6 eldritch blast which can be increased to 14d6 with Hellfire. You also know 8 invocations of up to greater grade, a reasonable set of skills and a couple of other bonuses. Not super powerful but should play quite nicely at most levels. You get 1 level of sorcerer casting so you can pick up a wand of wraithstrike and pop it in a wand chamber for touch attacks. You could even pick up power attack as well that way for more damage.

[dextercorvia]

Well, one thing about riding a mount is that it frees up your move actions. So the Fearsome Armor enchantment might not be a bad idea here; we threaten at a relatively long range, so picking up Never Outnumbered and Imperious Command isn't a bad idea to help deal with groups and keep enemies from fighting back.


Fearsome doesn't use a move action. The ability got an update in the MIC. It's not nearly as nice for Demoralizers any more.

[BladeofObliviom]

Fearsome doesn't use a move action. The ability got an update in the MIC. It's not nearly as nice for Demoralizers any more.

That's very disappointing. :smallfrown:


Well, I'm sure we can figure out soooomething to do with all of those unused move actions. I can't currently think of something that would reasonably fit onto this build, but there's got to be something or other. Maybe feinting for a cheap dex to AC denial? It's got the feats available to pick up assassin's stance if necessary and probably has the skill points to squeeze into Arcane Trickster for the last few levels, I guess.

[nedz]

The Whip of Flames

Bard 2 / Warlock 15 / Hellfire Warlock 3 — not in that order
Take Dragonfire Inspiration and Weapon Finesse
Combat Reflexes is no use unfortunately because Whips don't provoke so aim for Improved Trip

Bard gives you Whip proficiency, which you can trip with.
Bard 2 gives you Inspirational boost making your Dragonfire +2d6 fire.
Take Brimstone Blast as well as Hideous Blow and set people on fire with your whip.

Bard also gives you Tumble — which you need because using a whip provokes (and so does Hideous Blow) — so also take Leaps and Bounds.

Bard also gives access to some useful wands, before UMD becomes reliable.

OK it's hardly optimal, but it is thematic, and you could even join the circus.

[Nihilarian]

The Whip of FlamesWarlock/Pyrokineticist/Hellfire Warlock could be fun.

[dextercorvia]

Are there any Exotic Lances? If so, a dip into Exotic Weapon Master would let you trip with a lance, which would complement BladeofOblivion's mounted charging idea.

Edit: I couldn't find one, but Kaorti Resin Lance would do it, I think.

[Segev]

I like the notion of using the charge attack for this, but I'm concerned that you may not be able to use Hideous Blow in the same round you charge, even from the back of your mount. Isn't charging its own action, distinct from the standard action needed for Hideous Blow?

CAN you charge and apply Hideous Blow to the attack at the end of the charge?

[dextercorvia]

I like the notion of using the charge attack for this, but I'm concerned that you may not be able to use Hideous Blow in the same round you charge, even from the back of your mount. Isn't charging its own action, distinct from the standard action needed for Hideous Blow?

CAN you charge and apply Hideous Blow to the attack at the end of the charge?

Not a normal charge. But when your mount charges you are able to take a standard action at the end of your mount's charge. (So it works for the same reason that your Pounce doesn't help you when your mount charges.) If you use that standard action to Invoke Hideous Blow, you are allowed to make an Attack action as part of that standard action. If you are using a Kaorti Resin Lance and have the correct Exotic Weapon master ability, you can make that attack a trip attack, so the first attack resolves as a Touch attack dealing your Eldritch Blast damage. If you also have Improved Trip, you can make a followup normal attack with your lance, which will deal double damage as it is at the end of a mounted charge.

It is fairly niche, but it is at least a niche where Hideous Blow has some tiny bit of utility over just blasting or just using Eldritch Glaive.

[Segev]

I'm still not quite convinced that "an attack at the end of a charge" is the same as "a mounted charge attack."

I would like some text references, please.

(Mounted attacks get weird, so it could well be true, but I am not convinced of it.)

[nedz]

I'm still not quite convinced that "an attack at the end of a charge" is the same as "a mounted charge attack."

I would like some text references, please.

(Mounted attacks get weird, so it could well be true, but I am not convinced of it.)

You need Ride-By Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rideByAttack) — though that's not without it's own issues.

[dextercorvia]

An "attack at the end of the charge" with a lance that is wielded from "the back of a charging mount" is all that's required to trigger both the Charge benefits and the Lance's double damage. Your actions are not limited by your mount's charge, except by the fact you only have a standard action left at the end of the charge.


If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.


A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.

Note that lance doesn't even require it to be at the end of the charge, however, I'm sure we want the rest of the "bonus gained from the charge".

If your mount moves more than its speed as part of the charge, you'll have to make a concentration check, or you may not be able to use a standard action to cast a spell if it has moved too far.


You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).

[justiceforall]

A few questions for the thread:

Does Fire Lash actually work with Hideous Blow?

Could you use Sudden Leap to generate a Spring Attack of sorts? Move, Hideous Blow, Sudden Leap?

Is there any class that has +1 arcane caster and full BAB that could be used with this build, or are they all too hard to qualify for?

[Nihilarian]

A few questions for the thread:

Does Fire Lash actually work with Hideous Blow?

Could you use Sudden Leap to generate a Spring Attack of sorts? Move, Hideous Blow, Sudden Leap?

Is there any class that has +1 arcane caster and full BAB that could be used with this build, or are they all too hard to qualify for?Why wouldn't it?

In theory yeah, in practice your probably better off with Rideby Attack or Flyby Attack.

Why would you care about Full BAB? You can't make iteratives with Hideous Blow.

[mabriss lethe]

Why wouldn't it?

Actually, I don't think Hideous Blow will work with Fire Lash. HB triggers on a successful melee attack. Fire lash is technically not a melee attack. (it's weird that way) It's a ranged touch attack that benefits from feats that could normally be applied to a whip. That said, you could generate some nice bonus damage for your HB by tacking on the Weapon Aflame to your HB weapon, perhaps making it out of deep crystal as well and picking up Psionic Weapon/GPW.

[justiceforall]

Why wouldn't it?

Ninja'd by mabriss.


In theory yeah, in practice your probably better off with Rideby Attack or Flyby Attack.

It's pretty much free with a level of Warblade.


Why would you care about Full BAB? You can't make iteratives with Hideous Blow.

Because hitting things is good? Also enables power attack. Mostly I'm just curious, if all you are doing with this build is advancing EB damage, it's an option to look at (if it even exists).

[Nihilarian]

I forgot the fire lash was treated as a ranged touch attack, so you're right.

Edit: Sudden Leap is once/encounter unless you recover it, Rideby Attack and Flyby Attack always work. Also, flying and mounted combat are just better than jumping.

The Cyran Avenger has 4/5 casting and full BAB, and the warlock can get in.

[justiceforall]

Recovery being by hitting something - seems pretty straightforward.

Rideby Attack requires a mount and space/situation to use it. Flyby as well, although that's easier.

[Nihilarian]

However easy the recovery mechanic is, you're still only using it once every other round.

Mount only requires more space if it's large. If you're small, it's medium and can go wherever the party can go.

Also, the Warlock has easy access to either a mount or flight at 6th level.

And again, mounts and flight are just more useful than jumping.

[HurinTheCursed]

Hideous blow requires only a standard action so lets you move which combos nicely with scout. Something like

Scout 1 / Warlock 4 / Scout +2 / Dragon Devotee 3 / Unseen Seer 7 / Hellfire Warlock 3 (these can be moved earlier)

would work quite well. Key feats are Practised Spellcaster (Warlock), Improved Skirmish and Flyby Attack (either at 12th level after getting Fell Flight or earlier with other methods of flight).

You have 5d6 skirmish damage which increases to 7d6 with Improved Skirmish. An 8d6 eldritch blast which can be increased to 14d6 with Hellfire. You also know 8 invocations of up to greater grade, a reasonable set of skills and a couple of other bonuses. Not super powerful but should play quite nicely at most levels. You get 1 level of sorcerer casting so you can pick up a wand of wraithstrike and pop it in a wand chamber for touch attacks. You could even pick up power attack as well that way for more damage.

If you focus on hideous blow, you could get a large race with a dex bonus, focusing on dex rather than charisma. Then pick a good reach weapon, add craven and then great flyby attack to multiply attacks.
With the invocation that makes you invisible, it would be nice. But then why not switch some scout levels for rogue and pick swift ambusher to add extra dice ?

[Dread_Head]

If you focus on hideous blow, you could get a large race with a dex bonus, focusing on dex rather than charisma. Then pick a good reach weapon, add craven and then great flyby attack to multiply attacks.
With the invocation that makes you invisible, it would be nice. But then why not switch some scout levels for rogue and pick swift ambusher to add extra dice ?

I was thinking of a dex based build for this actually, with EWP: Spiked Chain for the weapon, but it can work with Str too so I didn't narrow it down more. Craven only works with sneak attack unfortunately. Great flyby attack can't be used with hideous blow which is what the question is about but would be a good feat if using eldritch claws. Adding sneak attack just means you are adding another necessary trigger for your damage, the invisibility invocation ends when you attack so isn't much use for that. There aren't really enough scout levels to make trading some for rogue worthwhile and the PrCs only advance one type or precision damage.