Diverse Training - Multiclass in a feat v3

[Xerlith]

So, after trying my hand at fiddling with Pathfinder multiclassing here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418140-Feat-amp-Trait-Prodigy) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412666-Pathfinder-Underped-Multiclass-Variant-Variant-PEACH) I think I managed to craft something actually usable.


Diverse Training
Prerequisites: Character level 3rd, two levels in the chosen class
Benefit: Pick a base class other than the one you took at this level. You immediately gain a level in that class and apply it to one of your already existing Hit Die. You gain the class abilities as if that level was taken in both the original and the new class.
Choose the better of your Hit Dice, Saves and BAB (Fractional Bonuses Variant: Take the average of both).
If both classes on that Hit Die grant spellcasting, you must choose which one you will apply - for example a Wizard3 choosing Cleric as his Diverse Training feat must choose if he wants to cast as a Wizard 3 or Wizard2/Cleric 1. Whatever the choice, they still gain an increase in their effective Wizard level for their class abilities' progression and the Cleric's proficiencies, Domains and Channel Energy.

Special: You may take this feat up to five times. You don't have to pick the same class every time you take it.


And a Trait:

Knack [Racial, Half-Elf]
Benefit: Pick one of your favoured classes. For the purposes of existing class features other than spellcasting, caster level, manifesting and so on, you may add two to your class level, as long as this doesn't make your effective class level higher than your current Hit Dice.


Soooo... that's it. Mini-gestalt, more or less. High-powered feat option that grants arguably more than Variant Multiclassing at its strongest but doesn't scale with anything. Might cut out spellcasting completely from the feat or something.

[nonsi]

"for example a Wizard3 choosing Cleric as his Diverse Training feat must choose if he wants to cast as a Wizard 3 or Wizard2/Cleric 1."


I'm not sure what you had in mind, but the way I'm reading it is: "you take a feat and either gain nothing or lose a Wizard level worth of spellcasting to gain a Cleric level worth of spellcasting" - all for gestalting stats.
Is this how you meant for this to work?




Knack - AFAIK, a character usually has only one favored class. Also, Practiced Spellcaster boosts your CL by up to +4. Why would I consider this feat attractive?

[Xerlith]

I'm not sure what you had in mind, but the way I'm reading it is: "you take a feat and either gain nothing or lose a Wizard level worth of spellcasting to gain a Cleric level worth of spellcasting" - all for gestalting stats.
Is this how you meant for this to work?




Knack - AFAIK, a character usually has only one favored class. Also, Practiced Spellcaster boosts your CL by up to +4. Why would I consider this feat attractive?

It's a Pathfinder feat. The thread has a tag.

The example was spellcasting-specific. If a Wizard 3 takes this feat to gain Cleric 1, they gain Domains, Channel Energy, proficiencies and better HD/BAB. Maybe Magus3/Cleric 1 would illustrate it better, since Magi have actual class features at 3rd level.

As for Knack - Because it's a Pathfinder trait. Half-Elves have the Multitalented trait which grants them two favored classes. It's also a trait, so it's meant to be half a feat and it's strictly in line with Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack), maybe a bit weaker since it's not Caster Level but other class features.

EDIT: Clarified the feat a bit.

[Xerlith]

Soo... PEACHy please?

[Hazzardevil]

So I'm right in thinking that this is meant to be used more by the weaker melee and skill classes than the casters? That was my reading of it, to try and give a power boost to the classes that need it.
Knack seems a bit powerful to me. Someone with an even number of levels of Fighter has almost no reason not to take it, since they get their feat back, albeit as a Fighter feat and some other features.

[pi4t]

If a wizard is picking up, say, improved initiative, is there any reason he wouldn't take Diverse Training (Fighter) for the feat he actually wants plus better hd, bab, etc?

[Xerlith]

So I'm right in thinking that this is meant to be used more by the weaker melee and skill classes than the casters? That was my reading of it, to try and give a power boost to the classes that need it.
Knack seems a bit powerful to me. Someone with an even number of levels of Fighter has almost no reason not to take it, since they get their feat back, albeit as a Fighter feat and some other features.
Well, I mostly wanted it to scale things like Unarmed Strike Damage, Bardic Music (already existing ones). I'll try and reword it so it doesn't grant new feats and such. Ideas how to do it neatly and cut out any space for abuse?


If a wizard is picking up, say, improved initiative, is there any reason he wouldn't take Diverse Training (Fighter) for the feat he actually wants plus better hd, bab, etc?

Will it be strange if I say that it doesn't really surprise me that a powerful to the point of being broken class gains the most usage from a feat?
Yes, there is probably no reason they wouldn't take it.

Well, there's always either the possibility of adding a limitation like "Pick a class you already have one level of" OR "This level cannot progress spellcasting".

The second one feels a bit too crude, though.

But yes, overall I am afraid spellcasters (who naturally have a worse-off chassis) will always gain more from that feat. I also hope that even though that is the case, martials may gain exponentially more. Because a Wizard gains a non-spellcasting specific feat and a +1 to hit and +3hp.

A Fighter feat-dipping Monk gains an array of abilities and saves - and retains BAB=Character Level for whatever purposes they might need it.

I am very well aware that this feat's balance is shaky. I'm working it out and looking for a way to make it at best overpowered (As opposed to outright broken), but it is not too easy to come.

For a quasi-gestalt (because it is a 5-level gestalt-enabler), I think it's best to look at this CR-wise. The character gains, for the cost of five feats, five levels' worth of class abilities. Now, does it bring the character's power level significantly up? If they're a wizard, no. If they're a melee Oracle/Cleric, maybe - they burn feats for a more specialised approach. It is not a free gestalt, either. It's giving up half your feats to gain 1/4 of a level progression.

Any feat that a character sacrifices for this is a feat they don't have for their primary specialization. A Wizard gains BAB, a small bump to saves and a feat from a restricted list. But a Fighter may gain access to something that gives him relatively much more, because he doesn't have spells to make up for the loss.

The feat is a bit of an experiment, I want to know how much is actually deemed a fair trade for a feat. High-powered feat, that is.