Pathfinder Figment Illusions and Stealth Ruling Questions

[Melestav]

I've never run a dedicated illusionist before and my DM requested I post my flurry of questions here before making his rulings as we don't want to waste time debating during game time. We know most of these are going to fall into the "Ask your DM" camp, but curious as to other's thoughts and mechanical inclinations.

1. Assume I am successfully stealthed and begin casting a spell in an adj. square to an orc, does he get an AoO? If not, what is his perception check/Can I cast my spell quietly? What is the Perception Check to hear/see a spell being cast 30 ft. away by a stealthed guy? What if I am fully inside an illusory rock in both situations? How do still and silent spell metamagic influence these situations/what impact do they have on Spellcraft checks to identify spells? How does Spellcraft work in general while stealthed?

2. I stick an illusion of a bucket on 5 goblin's heads with Silent Image + pass off concentration to the familiar who moves it along with them. Assuming they try to touch the bucket, their hands will go through. Is this treated as proof that an illusion isn't real and they can see through the bucket (even though they don't know it is a bucket)? What if the illusion is a brilliant blazing sun directly in front of their faces? - how about a blob of pure darkness?

3. How tricky is maintaining concentration for long durations? Can a familiar maintain concentration on a large patch of impenetrable brambles throughout a night while we rest inside? How about a flight of eagles or mercenaries traveling along with the party all day?

4. I create some expected illusory terrain element for the environment (a copy of a wall a few feet from where it actually is and hide behind that, a bank of dense overgrowth, a snowdrift, whatever) - how does this interact with concealment, cover, and perception checks?

5. If I specifically signal in some way that I make making an illusion, are those that understand the signal treated as having proof an illusion isn't real? As relevant for illusions of fog/darkness or being inside/seeing into stuff.

6. We're being charged by a pack of mindless undead or constructs, I stick an illusion of a bottomless pit in front of them. As they have no int, what do they do? Consider the situation for both when they have a visible way around and when they don't, substitute other impossible impediments - thick stone wall, blazing inferno, tornado, etc. How would animals (1-3 int) or vermin react?

7. I create an illusion of an incorporeal undead whooshing in and out of the floor / flying into things faces menacingly. As they would not expect their weapons to connect (if they even try), do they ever get a disbelief save? If I add some moaning via Ghost Sound - what happens if they pass their Ghost Sound save? Does this have any influence on the believability of the illusion? Why would I ever add an auditory effect to an illusion if not? From Ghost Sound description (Ghost sound can enhance the effectiveness of a silent image spell.)

8. Substitute Ventriloquism emanating from the ghost or a Bluff Check yelling- "Holy **** its a ghost, run for your life".

9. Exactly what information is imparted to the creature if it disbelieves a Ghost Sound?

Thanks!

[Frosty]

How do you pass off concentration to a familiar?

[Melestav]

School familiar archtype for Illusion lets you shift concentration as a move.

[D4rkh0rus]

1. Assume I am successfully stealthed and begin casting a spell in an adj. square to an orc, does he get an AoO? If not, what is his perception check/Can I cast my spell quietly? What is the Perception Check to hear/see a spell being cast 30 ft. away by a stealthed guy? What if I am fully inside an illusory rock in both situations? How do still and silent spell metamagic influence these situations/what impact do they have on Spellcraft checks to identify spells? How does Spellcraft work in general while stealthed?

Well, most spells require Somatic or Verbal Components. So casting would usually denote your current location, unless you use silent and still spell, or have some feature which allows you to do just this.
If you are within a piece of terrain, I'd assume those around you would be entitled to a listen check, if your spell has a Verbal component.


2. I stick an illusion of a bucket on 5 goblin's heads with Silent Image + pass off concentration to the familiar who moves it along with them. Assuming they try to touch the bucket, their hands will go through. Is this treated as proof that an illusion isn't real and they can see through the bucket (even though they don't know it is a bucket)? What if the illusion is a brilliant blazing sun directly in front of their faces? - how about a blob of pure darkness?

Well, to my knowledge, An illusion, once someone comes into contact with it, they must make a Will save (Disbelief) If they fail it, they believe its the real thing for all intents and purposes (so the goblins would be thinking theres a magical bucket or whatnot on top of them at all times) If they pass it, they realize its an illusion and are thus unaffected by it, unless theres a measure of reality in it, which us usually a %.


3. How tricky is maintaining concentration for long durations? Can a familiar maintain concentration on a large patch of impenetrable brambles throughout a night while we rest inside? How about a flight of eagles or mercenaries traveling along with the party all day?

Well, it really depends on DM ruling, in the RaW, You can hold concentration as long as you like, as long as you consult with the concentration table. Keeping it a whole night would mean that your Fam would have to continually make concentration checks for every little thing, to avoid being distracted not to mention factoring in Fatigue.

Mechanically, it would function with the right items. Realistically, no DM would allow your familiar to stay up a whole week concentrating on any given spell.


4. I create some expected illusory terrain element for the environment (a copy of a wall a few feet from where it actually is and hide behind that, a bank of dense overgrowth, a snowdrift, whatever) - how does this interact with concealment, cover, and perception checks?

Again, the Disbelief check is all. Unless you have some feature/quality which allows you to hide in illusions... If the enemy disbelieves it, they're gonna see you.
What might happen, is that you make the wall and hide behind it. As per illusion rules, IF they don't touch the wall or otherwise come into contact with it, they don't get a save, thus they believe it to be real.

If the 5 come into contact, and 4 fail. Those 4 will be dumbfounded when the 5th one passes through the wall and tries to get you.


5. If I specifically signal in some way that I make making an illusion, are those that understand the signal treated as having proof an illusion isn't real? As relevant for illusions of fog/darkness or being inside/seeing into stuff.

Some DMs rule it that way, As per RaW, I believe any hint or indication that its an illusion, only gives those that get said hint a +4 to their save.

It does bring up the basis for the 3.5 Shadowcraft mage blaster, with 180% Reality, "HEY! TRY TO DODGE THIS ILLUSORY FIREBALL" to increase the chances they'll get hit for almost double damage.


6. We're being charged by a pack of mindless undead or constructs, I stick an illusion of a bottomless pit in front of them. As they have no int, what do they do? Consider the situation for both when they have a visible way around and when they don't, substitute other impossible impediments - thick stone wall, blazing inferno, tornado, etc. How would animals (1-3 int) or vermin react?

Need to check this one, but I'd think they'd still get a Disbelief save as soon as they get near the pit. Then again, they're mindless, they might just march forward and auto pass it since there's no pit underneath.


7. I create an illusion of an incorporeal undead whooshing in and out of the floor / flying into things faces menacingly. As they would not expect their weapons to connect (if they even try), do they ever get a disbelief save? If I add some moaning via Ghost Sound - what happens if they pass their Ghost Sound save? Does this have any influence on the believability of the illusion? Why would I ever add an auditory effect to an illusion if not? From Ghost Sound description (Ghost sound can enhance the effectiveness of a silent image spell.)

Well, I think they don't unless they have magic weapons, or was it ghost touch? I forget, but anyways, if they have some way of actually harming incorporeal, they get the disbelief. Although, being an illusion, one can't really attack or drain levels with it, so it will get strange after a while.

Most probable outcome: the enemies will ignore it.


8. Substitute Ventriloquism emanating from the ghost or a Bluff Check yelling- "Holy **** its a ghost, run for your life".

Whats the question again?


9. Exactly what information is imparted to the creature if it disbelieves a Ghost Sound?


Disbelief
A successful save lets the subject ignore the effect.
from the 3.5 rules (I'd think that the PF rules are the same on this subject)

Meaning that they'd know its fake. But they'd still hear it.

[Segev]

Interacting with it grants a will save for disbelief. Having a bucket on their heads is, in fact, interacting with it, even if it just looks like "darkness" to them. Same with an illusory "blob of darkness" that is actually interfering with their vision.

Casting a spell in a square adjacent to somebody would give them a spot check against your stealth check in order to spot you; if they do, they get the AoO.

[Geddy2112]

Remember that besides interaction, careful study will also allow will saves against an illusion. I would say that would be a perception or other relevant check. Careful study implies more than a free action, interactions vary. Also, the effectiveness and impact of illusion spells are very DM dependent.



1. Assume I am successfully stealthed and begin casting a spell in an adj. square to an orc, does he get an AoO? If not, what is his perception check/Can I cast my spell quietly? What is the Perception Check to hear/see a spell being cast 30 ft. away by a stealthed guy? What if I am fully inside an illusory rock in both situations? How do still and silent spell metamagic influence these situations/what impact do they have on Spellcraft checks to identify spells? How does Spellcraft work in general while stealthed?
"To use a spell with a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice" from the rules. Hearing a conversation is a DC0 perception check so they might hear something coming from your square, but your stealth check might mean they can't see you there(if you have cover etc) but could be alerted. If they notice you, they get an attack AoO.


2. I stick an illusion of a bucket on 5 goblin's heads with Silent Image + pass off concentration to the familiar who moves it along with them. Assuming they try to touch the bucket, their hands will go through. Is this treated as proof that an illusion isn't real and they can see through the bucket (even though they don't know it is a bucket)? What if the illusion is a brilliant blazing sun directly in front of their faces? - how about a blob of pure darkness?
Silent image is a figment spell, so it cannot provide any real effect, it simply creates a false sensation(seeing a bucket) but silent image specifically says it does not create a sensation of texture, so they would see buckets but not feel them on their heads. A brillant blazing sun would not produce actual light, but would create a strong visual stimuli and with a stronger illusion spell, heat. Enough interaction would give a will save. As far as the bucket, a hand through the image would be obvious proof to me. A will save would be instant for lack of feeling a bucket, or if they moved talked etc(no echo...). For a blob of darkness, it would be dark but not actually block light.



4. I create some expected illusory terrain element for the environment (a copy of a wall a few feet from where it actually is and hide behind that, a bank of dense overgrowth, a snowdrift, whatever) - how does this interact with concealment, cover, and perception checks?
Depends on the spell. These are mostly glamers so they change the sensory qualities or make them disappear. Hallucinatory terrain does not allow hiding, mirage arcana does.


5. If I specifically signal in some way that I make making an illusion, are those that understand the signal treated as having proof an illusion isn't real? As relevant for illusions of fog/darkness or being inside/seeing into stuff.
If you don't explicitly explain to your party that your illusion is an illusion, a signal is +4 to disbelieve. Unless you routinely cast an illusion and they are used to it, or see you cast the spell and know that you casted it etc.


6. We're being charged by a pack of mindless undead or constructs, I stick an illusion of a bottomless pit in front of them. As they have no int, what do they do? Consider the situation for both when they have a visible way around and when they don't, substitute other impossible impediments - thick stone wall, blazing inferno, tornado, etc. How would animals (1-3 int) or vermin react? Mindless undead will obey suicidal orders if ordered to, otherwise I would say they would get a will save, depending on who is controlling them, what their orders are etc. If their controller can see the illusion their save would determine the effects. Animals would get a save if interacted with or likely believe the illusion to be true.


7. I create an illusion of an incorporeal undead whooshing in and out of the floor / flying into things faces menacingly. As they would not expect their weapons to connect (if they even try), do they ever get a disbelief save? If I add some moaning via Ghost Sound - what happens if they pass their Ghost Sound save? Does this have any influence on the believability of the illusion? Why would I ever add an auditory effect to an illusion if not? From Ghost Sound description (Ghost sound can enhance the effectiveness of a silent image spell.)
If they saw you cast a spell and identify it as silent image, I would say they get a save. If they study the image(rolling perception on it) they get a save, although they won't see anything differently. Ghost sound grants an automatic save, it says it can increase the believability of a silent image, but there is no mechanic so that is DM call.


8. Substitute Ventriloquism emanating from the ghost or a Bluff Check yelling- "Holy **** its a ghost, run for your life".
Ventriloquism allows for normal speech and allows a will save when heard. The DC is higher and the believability thing is still DM call. The "ghost" could use words to bluff or intimidate using your stats, but if they disbelieve it the check fails.


9. Exactly what information is imparted to the creature if it disbelieves a Ghost Sound?
The sound was not real.

[Darth Ultron]

1.Others covered the basics. An orc, or anyone really, would treat a ''talking rock'' as hostile. They would get a save to see through the rock illusion. And they would get defensive and watch out of the talking rock.

2.Depends how you and your DM want to do illusions:

A.Illusions are simple tricks of magic or B. Illusions are awesome epic level god magic. I go with A myself, so silent image can not make a bucket over even one persons head to block their sight. That is simply too powerful and crazy and leads down the slipper slope of problems. Like would illusionary ear plugs block sound? If not, how can the illusionary bucket block light? And so on. But if you go with B, why not just go full crazy and ''put a bag on thier head so they ''think'' they run out of air and die!

3.Concentration takes a bit of concentration, see the rules. I'd note that the familiar could not control or change the illusion spell, they can just keep to going. So if the caster set the bats flying in a circle, that is what they would keep doing...but they could do absolutely nothing else.

4.Depends on the spell. Figments don't do much until after a couple spell levels.

5.I'd say yes.

6.It depends on you and your DM. You get to pick from two ways:

A. Mindless things are really mindless and act that way. So a skeleton commanded to go forward and encountering a wall would just keep walking into the wall, for example. And a construct that was commanded to stay will stay there and let you destroy it. The game assumes ''mindless'' is not this type.

B. Mindless mean more ''they have no mind, but, er act normally''. So they respond to attacks and ''act normal''.

Animals and vermin react normally, if they think the illusion is real. A giant rat will avoid a pit, for example. Illusions for animals are tricky as they use lots of senses. A ''picture'' of a chunk of meat won't fool many dogs...but the smell of fresh meat will...

7.They will always get a save. To see the ''illusion flicker'' or such.