Is it now possible to push Fighter into Tier 3?

[Beowulf DW]

A thought has taken hold of me recently; a thought that winds its way through my mind as the roots of a tree anchor themselves to the soil. With the flood of new subsystems we got in Unchained, might it be possible to push the humble Fighter into Tier 3? Using Archetypes, the new stamina system, and VMC can we get this class into the sweet spot at tier 3, "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate,"?

The best thing that I can come up with is Lore Master/Martial Master with Barbarian VMC. This nets us access, bonuses, and flexibility for Combat Maneuvers, and a good bit of raw damage when Combat Maneuvers won't work. The extra skills and skill points gained from Lore Master allow us the chance for slightly more utility out of combat, though not enough to be a true skill monkey. However, with even a slight Int bonus (which is useful for the Lore Master's features) our repertoire increases nicely.

That's probably not quite enough to crack Tier 3, but I think it might be close.

There's plenty of people on this forum with far better mastery of the system than I, so I'm sure that some of you could figure out the combo that could work, or perhaps we'll simply have to conclude that the Fighter is destined never to rise above tier 4.

Anyway, I open up the floor to discussion, as it were.

[Ethereal Gears]

I'm thinking throwing eldritch guardian with an earth elemental familiar for earthglide in there might be good for the utility side of things. Will full BAB and a decent Con on the fighter (maybe squeezing in Toughness too) they can be pretty handy in a fight as well, sharing all the fighter's combat feats. If the GM lets you apply Mauler to an improved familiar, even better (not sure if there's a ruling on that since it's from a splat book). Possibly one would want to throw in mutation warrior in place of lore warden.
I'm really just spitballin' here. But I have to admit, after Familiar Folio and Unchained came out, I also began nursing this strange hope you speak of. :)

[Extra Anchovies]

I wish Tactician were a stackable archetype, because it's pretty solid. More skills and a better list, but it gives up parts of both armor and weapon training :smallyuk:

Eldritch Guardian is a great base, because familiars are great (especially with Improved Familiar) and it stacks with the armor/weapon training-replacing archetypes.

Personally, I think Eldritch Guardian/Martial Master/Mutation Warrior with Barbarian VMC likely gets up there.

If DSP is available, Martial Master/Lore Warden/Myrmidon (page 7 of this document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit)) gets 6+Int skills, a maneuver progression, all the Lore Warden goodies, and martial flexibility (which can be used to pick up maneuvers on the fly). Probably the strongest option, but it requires third-party material.

[Beowulf DW]

I'm thinking throwing eldritch guardian with an earth elemental familiar for earthglide in there might be good for the utility side of things. Will full BAB and a decent Con on the fighter (maybe squeezing in Toughness too) they can be pretty handy in a fight as well, sharing all the fighter's combat feats. If the GM lets you apply Mauler to an improved familiar, even better (not sure if there's a ruling on that since it's from a splat book). Possibly one would want to throw in mutation warrior in place of lore warden.
I'm really just spitballin' here. But I have to admit, after Familiar Folio and Unchained came out, I also began nursing this strange hope you speak of. :)

I've never heard of the Eldritch Guardian before. It certainly sounds interesting, at least.


I wish Tactician were a stackable archetype, because it's pretty solid. More skills and a better list, but it gives up parts of both armor and weapon training :smallyuk:

Eldritch Guardian is a great base, because familiars are great (especially with Improved Familiar) and it stacks with the armor/weapon training-replacing archetypes.

Personally, I think Eldritch Guardian/Martial Master/Mutation Warrior with Barbarian VMC probably gets up there.

If DSP is available, Martial Master/Lore Warden/Myrmidon (page 7 of this document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit)) gets 6+Int skills, a maneuver progression, all the Lore Warden goodies, and martial flexibility (which can be used to pick up maneuvers on the fly).

The first combo sounds like it would be a beast in combat, but it might lack utility. The second one sounds great, but my question was mostly relating to core material, even though I do love Dreamscarred Press's stuff. I figure that if we can smuggle Fighter into T3 without 3rd party material, we can certainly do it with 3rd party material.

Also, how are you getting that 6+Int skills?

[Extra Anchovies]

I've never heard of the Eldritch Guardian before. It certainly sounds interesting, at least.



The first combo sounds like it would be a beast in combat, but it might lack utility. The second one sounds great, but my question was mostly relating to core material, even though I do love Dreamscarred Press's stuff. I figure that if we can smuggle Fighter into T3 without 3rd party material, we can certainly do it with 3rd party material.

Also, how are you getting that 6+Int skills?

Myrmidon gives 4+Int. Lore Warden doesn't set the skills at a certain number; instead, it just grants an extra two per level.

[Beowulf DW]

Myrmidon gives 4+Int. Lore Warden doesn't set the skills at a certain number; instead, it just grants an extra two per level.

Good Lord, you're right! It means that you sacrifice most of your feats though.:smallyuk:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I don't believe Eldritch Guardians can nab Improved Familiar, since it requires an arcane caster level. And, as per recent PF FAQ rulings, SLAs do not qualify as arcane caster levels anymore.

It's circumstantial, but the the GM decides to use the Background Skills system and/or the alternate uses for skills, everyone is boosted skill-wise, but fighters in particular benefit.

[Extra Anchovies]

Good Lord, you're right! It means that you sacrifice most of your feats though.:smallyuk:

Well, you give up five feats, but it's a net gain - the maneuver progression is worth more than six feats (since it's better than the Martial Training chain), and then you get the deeds for free.

[Elricaltovilla]

Mutation Warrior + Martial Master gives you a good bit of utility in and out of combat. You won't have the skill points of a Lore Warden/Martial Master/Myrmidon, but you've got some key things that fighters are usually missing.

[Beowulf DW]

Mutation Warrior + Martial Master gives you a good bit of utility in and out of combat. You won't have the skill points of a Lore Warden/Martial Master/Myrmidon, but you've got some key things that fighters are usually missing.

Such as flight, I guess?

[Milo v3]

My group has tried to buff the fighter by using the following from unchained:

Fighters get Combat Stamina as an additional bonus feat at first level.
Fighters get a VCM for free.
Fighters count as two levels higher for the purposes of the Automatic Bonuses Progression.

[Beowulf DW]

My group has tried to buff the fighter by using the following from unchained:

Fighters get Combat Stamina as an additional bonus feat at first level.
Fighters get a VCM for free.
Fighters count as two levels higher for the purposes of the Automatic Bonuses Progression.


Wow...That seems like overkill on paper; how is it in practice?

[Milo v3]

Wow...That seems like overkill on paper; how is it in practice?

It's not really overkill in my mind.

The stamina bonuses are relatively small and only aid in combat.
VCM adds in some out of combat abilities, but they are very weak compared to actual class features to the extent most aren't worth the feats.
Automatic Bonus Progression basically just serves to lower the weaknesses in the saves and vulnerabilities of the fighter class. But it's only a tiny step above the other characters.

[Yanisa]

I don't believe Eldritch Guardians can nab Improved Familiar, since it requires an arcane caster level. And, as per recent PF FAQ rulings, SLAs do not qualify as arcane caster levels anymore.

Fighter's can take it, all you need is a familiar. (and levels and and alignment)

Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar)

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).

[grarrrg]

Fighter's can take it, all you need is a familiar. (and levels and and alignment)

Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar)

sufficiently high level (see below).

That "see below" references the table. The 'level column' in the table is called "Arcane Spellcaster Level".
Fighters do not have an Arcane Spellcaster level.
That is the issue.

"Text trumps table" won't help you much here, as the text specifically refers you to the table.

Now for people to chime in with RAW vs. RAI of Improved Familiar.

[137beth]

If DSP is available, <SNIP>
If DSP is available, then you could just rename the warder 'fighter' and cut out the entire challenge of the thread:smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

If DSP is available, then you could just rename the warder 'fighter' and cut out the entire challenge of the thread:smalltongue:

Except the challenge isn't "T3 martial character". It's "T3 single-classed Fighter".

Also, some people don't want a weirdo defensive guy with a bunch of anime fightan magicks, but still want to be effective. I am not necessarily one of those people, but they exist.

IMO, Fighter can't get all the way to T3 with the current options, but it can get fairly high up into T4 (especially with Myrmidon/Martial Master/Mutation Warrior). What keeps it out of T3 is that there's only really one thing a fighter can be built for, and that's combat. Compare to the Bard: you can have combat bards, social bards, sneaky bards, buffer bards, and many bards cover at least two of those roles (often with something else on the side). Fighters... they can't do much other than fight. They can fight really darn well when optimized properly, but they're still stuck in their niche. Barbarians are in T4 for the same reason.

[Yanisa]

That "see below" references the table. The 'level column' in the table is called "Arcane Spellcaster Level".
Fighters do not have an Arcane Spellcaster level.
That is the issue.

"Text trumps table" won't help you much here, as the text specifically refers you to the table.

Now for people to chime in with RAW vs. RAI of Improved Familiar.

Objection!

A fighter does have an effective wizard level for familiars, and wizard is an arcane spellcaster. Thus a Eldritch Guardian has an arcane spell caster level for the purpose of familiars.

Source (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype)

At 1st level, an eldritch guardian gains a familiar, treating his fighter level as his effective wizard level for the purpose of this ability.

This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So a Tier 3 character must either a) be very good at one thing but still useful when that one thing is inappropriate or b) capable at all things, but not as well as specialists.

A Fighter can already be very good at combat with the right archetypes and builds. They can deal large amounts of damage, are one of the few classes who can invest in combat maneuvers and with combat Stamina with have some additional options and uses in the realm of combat. This squarely starts the class at Tier 4, as the class is capable of doing one thing well (combat) but has no built in abilities that let it excel outside of combat.

So then we need to examine archetypes, VMCs and other options to see if we can stack on other utility. The Lore Warden is the simplest starting point, netting you extra skill ranks each level (though they must be spent on Int skills). A human with this archetype could have up to 7 skill ranks per level with just 12 int, that should be more than enough to let you qualify as useful outside of combat.

Eldritch Guardian is also a very interesting archetype, as it nets you some useful class skills (Perception, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device) and a familiar. A well picked familiar or improved familiar nets you extra utility quite easily, but we can have further fun if we toss in familiar archetypes as well.

A Martial Master is incredibly versatile, gaining the Martial Flexibility class feature and the ability to swap out combat feats many times per day. Now you can change your combat specialization to match almost any possible combat encounter. It also helps minimize the feat cost of choosing to Variant Multiclass.

As far as VMCs go, there are many good options for the Fighter. Looking at just the ones that add extra utility, Bard makes for an easy choice, especially if you combo the VMC with Lore Warden. With Bardic Knowledge, Versatile Performance and Lore Master you can be a bit of a skill monkey and Knowledge expert. Add on Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence at level 7 and you've got a fairly solid character.


So all in all, I think the Fighter is a solid Tier 4 that can reach Tier 3 with some specific builds using Paizo published material only.

[Sacrieur]

It's funny you should bring this up as soon as I finished the development of a balancing fix that's specifically targeted for this kind of thing. After looking through some things, I definitely believe it permits fighters who optimize to get that elusive tier 3.

Initiator Alternate Balance Rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418881-Initiator-Alternate-Rule-Balance-Fix)

Let's be honest though, it's difficult to boost a tier 5 class into a tier 3 class because it not only lacks versatility, but also doesn't do what it's supposed to. You have to rewrite the entire thing, which is a nightmare. It's simpler to use the fix I've provided above because, while it doesn't balance everything perfectly, it definitely helps close the balance gap without trying to rewrite the CRB.

Here's how you can use this rule to build a tier 4 fighter:

Using the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype and choosing Thrashing Dragon with a Human...



Level
Class/Feat
Maneuvers
Stances



1
Deadly Agility, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
0
0


2
Bravery +1, Combat Reflexes
0
0


3
Defense Flurry +1, Discipline Focus (Thrashing Dragon)
0
0


4
Victorious Recovery
2
0


5
Lightning Recovery 1/day, Twin Blades +1
2
0


6
Bravery +2, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
4
1


7
Defensive Flurry +2, Lightning Recovery 2/day
4
1


8
Fuse Styles, Thrashing Dragon Style
4
1


9
Doublestrike, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana)
4
1


10
Bravery +3, Katana Expertise
6
2


11
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Defensive Flurry +3, Improved Balance
6
2


12
Improved Critical (Katana)
8
3


13
Equal Opportunity, Lightning Recovery 3/day
8
3


14
Bravery +4, Thrashing Dragon Pounce, Lightning Recovery 4/day
8
3


15
Defensive Flurry +4, Perfect Balance, Lightning Recovery 5/day
8
3


16
Lightning Recovery 6/day
10
4


17
Deft Doublestrike, Lightning Recovery 7/day
10
4


18
Bravery +5, Lightning Recovery 8/day
12
5


19
Deadly Defense, Defensive Flurry +5, Lightning Recovery 9/day
12
5


20
Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind, Weapon Mastery (Katana), Lightning Recovery 10/day
12
5



After awhile I didn't know what to do with all the feats so I started stacking Lightning Recovery. They can be easily replaced by other things like Combat Expertise if you so choose. I haven't even gotten around to totaling up all the bonuses, but all I can really say is that it's a lot. Like a lot a lot. At 10th level you're getting 2x your Dex mod to damage. The penalties from TWF get erased and the reason I chose the Katana was because you can seriously wreck stuff with it and because it's cool.

I'd say this simple change can make the fighter an extremely effective character. This build eats a Dervish Defender for breakfast in terms of offensive prowess.



Except the challenge isn't "T3 martial character". It's "T3 single-classed Fighter".

Also, some people don't want a weirdo defensive guy with a bunch of anime fightan magicks, but still want to be effective. I am not necessarily one of those people, but they exist.

So pick a discipline like Golden Lion or Primal Fury. You don't have to pick something exotic like Veiled Moon or Riven Hourglass. Frankly you're not going to get to tier 3 without initiator stuff. I'm sorry, you're just not. I don't care how strong you homebrew your class into being at swinging a sword, it's still going to be tier 4 unless you make it a gish. Becoming an initiator is the only way to compete on the level of a Bard or Magus without spells/powers.

Being tier 4 is okay though. It's not committing a great evil to be good at one type of thing.



If DSP is available, then you could just rename the warder 'fighter' and cut out the entire challenge of the thread:smalltongue:

Fighters and warders aren't exactly the same thing. It's sort of sad that a fighter is so bad that a warder can pretend to be one and do its job better.

[Extra Anchovies]

As far as VMCs go, there are many good options for the Fighter. Looking at just the ones that add extra utility, Bard makes for an easy choice, especially if you combo the VMC with Lore Warden. With Bardic Knowledge, Versatile Performance and Lore Master you can be a bit of a skill monkey and Knowledge expert. Add on Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence at level 7 and you've got a fairly solid character.

Hm. Definitely hadn't thought of Bard VMC. I think we have our answer; Lore Warden/Martial Master with Bard VMC. Too bad LW doesn't fit with Mutation Warrior, because that archetype lets us get flight.

[1pwny]

I mean, lets be honest guys. Why are we trying to get a class called a fighter into tier 3? Really, its sole purpose should be to fight. A definition of tier 4 is "capable of doing 1 thing quite well." I think that the fighter should firmly stay tier 4. However, I also think that they should be better at fighting. At the very least, they should be the top-notch melee-ers.

This is all my opinion, though.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I mean, lets be honest guys. Why are we trying to get a class called a fighter into tier 3? Really, its sole purpose should be to fight. A definition of tier 4 is "capable of doing 1 thing quite well." I think that the fighter should firmly stay tier 4. However, I also think that they should be better at fighting. At the very least, they should be the top-notch melee-ers.

This is all my opinion, though.

Because its fun to do so?

[AzraelX]

I mean, lets be honest guys. Why are we trying to get a class called a fighter into tier 3? Really, its sole purpose should be to fight.
While we're enforcing the literal interpretations of names, let's also strip all the magic and skills away from the Ranger, along with any ability to fight melee. Its sole purpose should be to do ranged attacks.

[JohnDaBarr]

Getting Fighter to T3 is a tough one. When you consider that a Fighter/Rogue gestalt character is T4 and MAYBE low T3 if it can rely on UMD heavily. So if with a addon of an entire class it is still hard to get to T3 then you can see the scope of the gap.

As I see it the Fighter needs entire new type of class features besides the ones he already has. He should be more than just a bag of hp with a pointy stick.

He should posses abilities that grant bonuses to the party, like tactical and leadership bonuses. A lvl 20 Fither should be a prime commanding officer or at least a epic drill sergeant.

[Elricaltovilla]

While we're enforcing the literal interpretations of names, let's also strip all the magic and skills away from the Ranger, along with any ability to fight melee. Its sole purpose should be to do ranged attacks.

Oh and alchemists only get craft: alchemy as a class skill

[Beowulf DW]

Hm. Definitely hadn't thought of Bard VMC. I think we have our answer; Lore Warden/Martial Master with Bard VMC. Too bad LW doesn't fit with Mutation Warrior, because that archetype lets us get flight.

Well, as useful as flight can be, how often does it actually come up as a requirement in a game. I was once in a campaign where we went right to level 20 without anyone flying once. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have, but it's not a requirement. And there has to be some magic ring or cape that lets you fly, anyway.

Also, I agree with the Bard VMC/Loremaster combo. That definitely seems to at least put us over the edge tier-wise.

[Sacrieur]

I updated my last post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19359472&postcount=20) with a practical build.

I'm extremely satisfied with the result.

[Milo v3]

Frankly you're not going to get to tier 3 without initiator stuff. I'm sorry, you're just not. I don't care how strong you homebrew your class into being at swinging a sword, it's still going to be tier 4 unless you make it a gish. Becoming an initiator is the only way to compete on the level of a Bard or Magus without spells/powers.
This is blatantly wrong. For gods sake, people have made tier 2 fighter classes without having to give them initiating. Initiating is simply the easiest way to get them higher tier, but it's not the only way.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This is blatantly wrong. For gods sake, people have made tier 2 fighter classes without having to give them initiating. Initiating is simply the easiest way to get them higher tier, but it's not the only way.

Care to elaborate please? I'm assuming this means getting spells somehow, because in all honestly that is the hallmark of tiers 1 and 2, access to 9th level spells (or equivalent) from a diverse list.

[Milo v3]

Care to elaborate please? I'm assuming this means getting spells somehow, because in all honestly that is the hallmark of tiers 1 and 2, access to 9th level spells (or equivalent) from a diverse list.
Not sure if there has been a tier 1 fighter (there might be, but I haven't seen it), but the first fighter fix that comes to mind to me as tier 2 without spells is the Bellator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336731-quot-Today-is-victory-over-yourself-Tomorrow-is-your-victory-over-lesser-men-quot). Grod has also had a few fixes that went into tier 2 territory iirc (though some are clunky).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I thought you were talking about a specific build, not a homebrew class (which looks fairly interesting, I don't think I've seen this one before).

[Dienekes]

Actually, I remember on these forums awhile back that someone posted a Fighter build that was considered just barely scraping into tier 3. But he did it by abusing archetypes, weird feat combos, and some rules legal but definitely unanticipated uses of the skill system that turned the fighter into something barely recognizable.

Man, I wish I could remember that thread, it was interesting.

[Sacrieur]

Not sure if there has been a tier 1 fighter (there might be, but I haven't seen it), but the first fighter fix that comes to mind to me as tier 2 without spells is the Bellator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336731-quot-Today-is-victory-over-yourself-Tomorrow-is-your-victory-over-lesser-men-quot). Grod has also had a few fixes that went into tier 2 territory iirc (though some are clunky).

You realize that uses disciplines and maneuvers and stances, right?

The reason it isn't possible is because you'd have to write a system just as diverse as psionics, initiating, or spellcasting to boost it there. The gap between the 2nd and 3rd tiers is pretty big. Tier 2 is about diversity, versatility, and usefulness rather than power. You can't just pile on fighting abilities plus a few other related things to get there. There's a reason why initiators gishes are all tier 3 as well. For fighter to get to tier 2 the class would have be written into something unrecognizable and complicated.

But there's no reason to fight the system. Initiating is a framework that you should work in, rather than attempting to design something new.

[Milo v3]

You realize that uses disciplines and maneuvers and stances, right?

The reason it isn't possible is because you'd have to write a system just as diverse as psionics, initiating, or spellcasting to boost it there. The gap between the 2nd and 3rd tiers is pretty big. Tier 2 is about diversity, versatility, and usefulness rather than power. You can't just pile on fighting abilities plus a few other related things to get there. There's a reason why initiators gishes are all tier 3 as well. For fighter to get to tier 2 the class would have be written into something unrecognizable and complicated.

But there's no reason to fight the system. Initiating is a framework that you should work in, rather than attempting to design something new.
The bellator can get initating, but it isn't required to take them to make it powerful.

And I'm pretty sure a decent portion of grod's fixes are pretty simple.

[Extra Anchovies]

The bellator can get initating, but it isn't required to take them to make it powerful.

And I'm pretty sure a decent portion of grod's fixes are pretty simple.

Indeed. His mundane T1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!) is really impressive in its elegance.

[Sacrieur]

The bellator can get initating, but it isn't required to take them to make it powerful.

And I'm pretty sure a decent portion of grod's fixes are pretty simple.

Stacking on an entirely new system is not simple. In fact it's the opposite of simple.



Indeed. His mundane T1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!) is really impressive in its elegance.

I question whether it's actually tier 1. It just seems like a very overpowered fighter type with an extra system tagged in to try and cover up for the holes that being super powered doesn't fix. Elegant is not the word I'd use to describe it, either. It's probably still around tier 2 until he just gives the class a Divine Rank. See the superman problem (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAce).

---

Never said it couldn't be done, I just said it couldn't be done without rewriting the class and creating a new system. Both examples have done this.

[Beowulf DW]

The goal was tier 3, my friends, let's not get ahead of ourselves, lol.

That said, it would appear that our goal in that endeavor has indeed been accomplished. Through archetype combos, VMC, background skills and the stamina system, the Fighter can function well in combat and still have some tricks up its sleeves for out-of-combat activities. It took no less than three new subsystems, but I think we've done it.

[Milo v3]

Never said it couldn't be done, I just said it couldn't be done without rewriting the class and creating a new system. Both examples have done this.

Actually... you said it can't be done without initating. My point was that it can be done by creating new systems... I mean, I actually really don't like initiating, I'd rather have something else to buff up martials.


That said, it would appear that our goal in that endeavor has indeed been accomplished. Through archetype combos, VMC, background skills and the stamina system, the Fighter can function well in combat and still have some tricks up its sleeves for out-of-combat activities. It took no less than three new subsystems, but I think we've done it.
Funnily enough, my group still thinks that using all of that still keeps the fighter low tier 4 at best.

[Sacrieur]

The goal was tier 3, my friends, let's not get ahead of ourselves, lol.

That said, it would appear that our goal in that endeavor has indeed been accomplished. Through archetype combos, VMC, background skills and the stamina system, the Fighter can function well in combat and still have some tricks up its sleeves for out-of-combat activities. It took no less than three new subsystems, but I think we've done it.

The rule I developed isn't any new subsystem. It accomplishes everything without introducing any new content or changing rules or how things work.



Actually... you said it can't be done without initating. My point was that it can be done by creating new systems... I mean, I actually really don't like initiating, I'd rather have something else to buff up martials.

A closer look at the class confirms that it is in fact Superman on steroids as a class. If that's the way we're playing I can build a class like that too. I mean it literally lets you get another swift action every turn. That's just game breaking.

Level 1:

Infinite Immunity (Ex): Immune to everything, even death.

Alter Reality (Ex): Can manipulate reality at will as a free action even when it's not his turn.

I put (Ex) next to it so it's still mundane.

[AzraelX]

it literally lets you get another swift action every turn.
I didn't notice this when I looked at it. That's just bad design.

[Beowulf DW]

The rule I developed isn't any new subsystem. It accomplishes everything without introducing any new content or changing rules or how things work.

The other part of the challenge was using Pathfinder 1st party material, not your personal homebrew.

[Sacrieur]

The other part of the challenge was using Pathfinder 1st party material, not your personal homebrew.

It's not homebrew. I didn't create any of the content, DSP did. But if you're not using DSP then I guess it doesn't count.

But I think that's a pretty silly limitation.

[Beowulf DW]

It's not homebrew. I didn't create any of the content, DSP did. But if you're not using DSP then I guess it doesn't count.

But I think that's a pretty silly limitation.

Some DMs aren't comfortable with 3rd party material, even the good stuff from Dreamscarred. One of the DMs in my RL group is a great example of a very reasonable DM that simply doesn't like psionics and doesn't appreciate the idea of having to keep track of even more systems in the games he runs. Getting Fighter to T3 is easy with PoW, but not every player is going to have that option in every game.

[Vhaidara]

It's not homebrew. I didn't create any of the content, DSP did. But if you're not using DSP then I guess it doesn't count.

But I think that's a pretty silly limitation.

As I recall, you were plugging your own method of giving fighters maneuvers. Which DSP has not, to my knowledge, published.

Also, third party content, regardless of quality, is, at its core, glorified homebrew.

And further, he said using first party content, which DSP, by definition, is not.

[Sacrieur]

As I recall, you were plugging your own method of giving fighters maneuvers. Which DSP has not, to my knowledge, published.

Just feats, which is really just a houserule. DSP's Martial Training feat chain gave the maneuvers.



Also, third party content, regardless of quality, is, at its core, glorified homebrew.

How far do we want to take this? Official Paizo content is just glorified homebrew of WotC's stuff :p

If that, I mean really there's a lot of copypasta.



And further, he said using first party content, which DSP, by definition, is not.

Yeah that's fine. I just see it as a silly limitation for DMs to not use DSP because they're too lazy to learn the rules. Disallowing psionics? Well okay if it doesn't fit into your world then it doesn't fit, but disallowing things that's official content in 3.5 because it isn't "official" in PF seems absurd to me. DSP pushes out higher quality content than Paizo's stuff. So there isn't an objective reason to ban DSP. Seems to me the only difference is that it doesn't have a Paizo sticker slapped on it.

[Vhaidara]

I am currently returning home from an excellent reason: Pathfinder Society. I'm actually considering turning my current character into a fighter when he hits level 2. As a society character, third party is completely off the table.

And this is a Pathfinder thread. 3.5 is no more relevant in determining what is first party than GURPS is. The equivalent is going to a thread asking how to do x without casting and recommending a wizard: yes, it does the job, but the question excluded it.

[Elricaltovilla]

Just feats, which is really just a houserule. DSP's Martial Training feat chain gave the maneuvers.

Houserules and homebrew are basically the same thing. You homebrewed a system to hand out bonus feats based on BAB and casting modifier. Implementing that system is a houserule.


How far do we want to take this? Official Paizo content is just glorified homebrew of WotC's stuff :p

Not really. Pathfinder uses the D20 system which is mechanically and intellectually distinct from Dungeons and Dragons 3.5. The ability to use the D20 system comes from the Open Game License, and it's that legal document that allows games like Pathfinder and publishers like Paizo and Dreamscarred Press to exist.

Pathfinder is a game that uses the D20 System. It is not 3.5 Homebrew or 3.5 3rd party content because Pathfinder is a distinct game that is protected under a different IP than Dungeons and Dragons. Different companies, different IPs, different rules, same basic system.


Yeah that's fine. I just see it as a silly limitation for DMs to not use DSP because they're too lazy to learn the rules. Disallowing psionics? Well okay if it doesn't fit into your world then it doesn't fit, but disallowing things that's official content in 3.5 seems absurd to me.

Psionics is official material from 3.5 too. It's actually on the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.d20srd.org/).

[Sacrieur]

Houserules and homebrew are basically the same thing. You homebrewed a system to hand out bonus feats based on BAB and casting modifier. Implementing that system is a houserule.

Fair enough.



Not really. Pathfinder uses the D20 system which is mechanically and intellectually distinct from Dungeons and Dragons 3.5. The ability to use the D20 system comes from the Open Game License, and it's that legal document that allows games like Pathfinder and publishers like Paizo and Dreamscarred Press to exist.

Pathfinder is a game that uses the D20 System. It is not 3.5 Homebrew or 3.5 3rd party content because Pathfinder is a distinct game that is protected under a different IP than Dungeons and Dragons. Different companies, different IPs, different rules, same basic system.

Most of the content was just taken and reworded slightly for the CRB. I wouldn't say it's the same basic system so much as a modification of 3.5.

DSP's PoW is what just copying the same basic system looks like. The disciplines and classes were inspired from ToB but not copied.



Psionics is official material from 3.5 too. It's actually on the 3.5 System Reference Document (http://www.d20srd.org/).

I wasn't saying it wasn't. I was saying that if you don't want psionics for DM reasons that's valid, the same way you can run a mundane campaign with low magic and forbid casters.

[Molosse]

While the discussion on 3rd PC is just lovely, onto the matter at hand, I was always lead to believe that the Tier System was not simply a notion of power twas also a application of versatility.
So then while the Fighter is relatively good at fighting would not adding other options, such as VMC's and Archetypes, to turn the Fighter into a team-building skill-monkey who is still good at fighting and thus meet the requirements of Tier 3?

[Elricaltovilla]

The tier system has never been about power, always about versatility. Now in D&D and in real life, versatility is a form of power but that's not what the tier system is measuring.

[IZ42]

Just wanted to chime in on this. First off, yes, you did create a T3 fighter using the standard definition of the tiers using a complex convolution of archetypes and subsystems, which is great, because I love seeing mundanes get love, especially from 1st party (Don't get me wrong, I love DSP, I just think Paizo should give martials more love). On the subject of tiers, I actually find that Tier 2 could be considered a huge, unguided nuke, in that it has tons of raw, destructive power (AKA Sorcerers and Oracles), while Tier 3 is often a smaller, guided smart missile, that has versatility as opposed to raw power (AKA Alchemists and Bards). Yes, a Tier 2 can be more versatile than a Tier 3, but there's a contradiction to every rule, isn't there?

Second off, I want to point out that yes, Paizo could be technically considered 3rd party content for WotC, which, by some measures, it is I suppose, but no, it's its own system that is completely separate from WotC and 3E/3.5. It was designed to be backwards compatible with 3.5 so it could hopefully pull in a larger fanbase, and was originally not its own system, just a campaign setting.

Oh, and Tier List (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=apo6ko316tka00ktj22o5sb5k5&topic=11990.40) for funziez, though I don't find it completely accurate, as in Fighter and Monk are ranked too low.
I also just realized how many of my sentences are pretty much run-on sentences held together by a tenuous string of commas. Oh well. That's what learning to BS essay writing word counts does to you I suppose.

[grarrrg]

The tier system has never been about power, always about versatility.

? I don't think you are reading the same tier list that I am reading (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0).


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.


Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

I'd say Tier is very much about Power.
It also cares about Versatility.
Both are important.

[Extra Anchovies]

The tier system has never been about power, always about versatility. Now in D&D and in real life, versatility is a form of power but that's not what the tier system is measuring.

Based on my readings of the various lists and explanations, it's about a little of both. Power determines whether a class is T1-T2 (high-power), T3-T4 (mid-power), or T5-T6 (low-power). How versatile it is determines which of the two tiers it falls into in its tier group, e.g. a high-versatility mid-power class (Bard) is T3, while a low-versatility mid-power class (Fighter) is T4.

So I agree with you that versatility is what would move the fighter from T4 to T3, but not that the tier list is only about versatility. You could give the wizard a 6th-level prepared casting progression (á la that of the Warpriest), and it wouldn't suffer much in terms of versatility, but the power drop would push them down to T3.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Eh, I'd argue the bard is a very powerful Buffer myself. I've always taken Tier descriptions with a grain of salt, as the definitions are really vaguely worded and imprecise.

Take Tier 3: "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

What qualifies as a "Thing". How do we evaluate "quite well". In my example of the Lore Warden/Bard VMC I used Combat as my "thing" but somebody else might say "a single type of combat" qualifies you.

[Earthwalker]

While we're enforcing the literal interpretations of names, let's also strip all the magic and skills away from the Ranger, along with any ability to fight melee. Its sole purpose should be to do ranged attacks.

I hate myself for doing this but....

Isn't the Ranger so named becuase he ranges (covers alot of ground) he is a wanderer and scout. Ranger is nothing to do with ranged combat.

I am sure someone will correct me on this if I am wrong (which I may be)

[AzraelX]

Isn't the Ranger so named becuase he ranges (covers alot of ground) he is a wanderer and scout.
I was wondering if someone was going to say this. A Fighter's name doesn't imply they can't cast spells either; certainly you're fighting if you're avoiding projectiles while blasting people with chain lightning and disintegrate. Even a battle of wits qualifies as fighting, and when you hear someone say "we had a fight earlier", you would naturally think of a verbal confrontation. That gives you a basis for a "fighter" being a class focusing on mental stats and Diplomacy.

The point was that saying "this class should only be able to do X because that word is in their name" is pretty ridiculous.

[Beowulf DW]

[QUOTE=NightbringerGGZ;19365714]What qualifies as a "Thing". How do we evaluate "quite well". In my example of the Lore Warden/Bard VMC I used Combat as my "thing" but somebody else might say "a single type of combat" qualifies you.

The "Thing" would be a function within the party. For instance: Battlefield Control, Combat, Buffing/Healing, Party Face, Skill Monkey.

"Quite Well" would imply that the class is not easily overshadowed within its area of expertise.

Combat is indeed a nebulous category, though. It can mean a capacity for frontline melee work, ranged DPR, even its own form of battlefield control through the use of Combat Manuevers. Fighter is capable of filling at least one of these sub-roles, usually two, perhaps all 3 with the right Attribute and Feat allocation.