Master of many forms optimization help

[anti-ninja]

so one of my friends decided he wanted to try his hands at being a dm.so I decided to try to make a wild shape variant ranger planning on going master of many forms ,the campaign starts at level 1 so i was wondering if the playground could give me any advice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't dump all your physical stats-- the first few levels will be really painful if you try. MoMF is really easy to qualify for, especially as a ranger, so that shouldn't be much of an issue either. You'll spend your first few levels as a relatively standard melee or ranged type. Combat style will become irrelevant, and you won't want to invest too much in it, so I'd go ahead and grab a two-handed weapon and Power Attack-- that's plenty of offensive punch for now. You might look into the Champion of the Wild ACF from Complete Champion to drop the no-longer-progressed casting in favor of a bonus feat at 4th. Alternately, if you can get the Mystic Ranger variant from Dragon approved, that'll give you fairly solid spellcasting for your first few levels with very little cost, enough that you can probably get by with lower physical stats. (Especially if you add on Sword of the Arcane Order at 4th-- then you're basically going into MoMF with 5 levels of ranger//wizard gish)

[Troacctid]

Combat style will become irrelevant, and you won't want to invest too much in it, so I'd go ahead and grab a two-handed weapon and Power Attack-- that's plenty of offensive punch for now.

Why Power Attack? The math doesn't really favor it at low levels, and you're obviously not going to need it at high levels. Seems better to just take a two-handed weapon with a decent Strength and Con and bash some faces without investing feats--or if you do invest feats for early melee power, take something more early-game-oriented, like Shape Soulmeld (Astral Bracers) for DR 2/magic (which makes you basically invincible against the dinky goblins and kobolds you'll be fighting at level 1).

Also, you don't get a combat style at all, so I dunno if "becomes irrelevant" is the right phrase. :smalltongue:

I actually like 1st level Ranger spells a decent amount. They have a surprisingly good list, and even if you only get a single spell slot, you can still get a lot of value out of it. Trading away your spellcasting also turns off your ability to use spell trigger items, which is not an insignificant drawback. I wouldn't mind Champion of the Wild if it could help you with the MoMF feat tax, but it can't, so it's kind of bad.

Definitely pick up the urban companion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) variant instead of an animal companion. It scales way better, due to sharing your HP, BAB, and skill ranks. It also gives you Alertness while the familiar is within arm's reach; talk to your DM about whether this can be used to meet the prerequisite for MoMF.

[Nihilarian]

If you take Mystic Ranger, you can use the Aspect of the Wolf (Spell Compendium) spell and transform into a wolf until you get polymorph, which would let you dump strength and dexterity for more constitution and wisdom.

When I make a Shapeshifter type I like mixing in 5 levels of Warshaper for the various goodies it gets you while morphing. Most people say not to take the last level though, since you'll probably have more than enough wild shapes to suit your needs without the ability. You also don't advance the max HD of the forms you can take.

[BilltheCynic]

Check out this Master of Many Forms handbook. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931) It should have everything you need, including a list of some of the best monsters you can Wild Shape into at each level and what each of them is good for.

[chaos_redefined]

Why Power Attack? The math doesn't really favor it at low levels, and you're obviously not going to need it at high levels. Seems better to just take a two-handed weapon with a decent Strength and Con and bash some faces without investing feats--or if you do invest feats for early melee power, take something more early-game-oriented, like Shape Soulmeld (Astral Bracers) for DR 2/magic (which makes you basically invincible against the dinky goblins and kobolds you'll be fighting at level 1).

Also, you don't get a combat style at all, so I dunno if "becomes irrelevant" is the right phrase. :smalltongue:

I actually like 1st level Ranger spells a decent amount. They have a surprisingly good list, and even if you only get a single spell slot, you can still get a lot of value out of it. Trading away your spellcasting also turns off your ability to use spell trigger items, which is not an insignificant drawback. I wouldn't mind Champion of the Wild if it could help you with the MoMF feat tax, but it can't, so it's kind of bad.

Definitely pick up the urban companion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) variant instead of an animal companion. It scales way better, due to sharing your HP, BAB, and skill ranks. It also gives you Alertness while the familiar is within arm's reach; talk to your DM about whether this can be used to meet the prerequisite for MoMF.

Power Attack is still good on a master of many forms. They have decent damage to begin with, but at 10th level, they have BAB+8.

And there are a lot of good feats for a Master of Many Forms. Power Attack, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple, etc... An extra feat is not wasted.

[Troacctid]

Power Attack is still good on a master of many forms. They have decent damage to begin with, but at 10th level, they have BAB+8.

And there are a lot of good feats for a Master of Many Forms. Power Attack, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike -> Improved Grapple, etc... An extra feat is not wasted.

Tripping and Power Attacking are not exactly optimal ways to use wild shape. You're probably going to be using natural weapons, not a guisarme. You can't trip with them and you get crappy returns for Power Attacking with them. As for Improved Unarmed Strike, that's not a legal bonus feat for Rangers.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tripping and Power Attacking are not exactly optimal ways to use wild shape. You're probably going to be using natural weapons, not a guisarme. You can't trip with them and you get crappy returns for Power Attacking with them. As for Improved Unarmed Strike, that's not a legal bonus feat for Rangers.
You can totally Wild Shape into a troll or dire ape or something with a nice high strength and reach and go nuts with a two-handed reach weapon. You can trip without a weapon, you just can't drop it avoid a counter-trip (and you provoke if you don't have the feat). And power attack can a) add up to a nice total if you take a small penalty on many attacks, and b) might well be ruled to give a double return with any natural weapon that adds 1.5 Strength.

[ZamielVanWeber]

To weigh in on power attack: if your dude has a nice natural weapon suite, especially with multiple primary weapons (claws, tentacles, hydra) power attack typically ends up being worth it in my experience. If your suite is mostly secondary weapons, or a single weapon, than power attack falls flat unless you have multiattack/improved multiattack.
My rule of thumb for it is 2 primaries + a secondary, minimum. The primary attacks have a good chance to hit with all of them so power attacking works out to give you decent returns.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would go Human, Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 4/ Nature's Warrior 1 or Wildshape Ranger 1/ Master of Many Forms 3, with Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Multiattack, Robilar's Gambit, and Defensive Sweep.

Early on use a Glaive and try to stay behind a tankier character. If possible use Handle Animal to get a war-trained riding dog to keep between yourself and opponents.

Once you get spells keep Rhino's Rush prepared, and try to get some 1st level Pearls of Power to cast it more often. Get Armbands of Might, which makes it so Power Attacking two-handed for -2 to hit adds +6 damage, and Leap Attack increases that to +12, and Rhino's Rush doubles your damage for the whole attack, so you end up with +24 damage from a -2 to hit. You can put a wand chamber from Dungeonscape in your weapon and get a Wand of Rhino's Rush, per the Rules Compendium a wand's activation time is identical to the casting time of the spell it contains.

Wear a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp to add your Wis bonus to your AC, among other benefits. An item with a Wilding Clasp will continue to function when you Wild Shape, and that includes both mundane and magical functions. One mundane function of a belt is to hold other items, so you can use the belt to hold Pearls of Power, wands, and similar items without needing a separate Wilding Clasp for each of those. Try to get a friendly spellcaster in the party to put ((Lesser Rod of) Extended) (Greater) Mage/Luminous Armor on you every day.

At 5th level your favorite form should be a Fleshraker Dinosaur (MM3), at 7th level you can turn into a Bladerager Troll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3), at 9th a Cave Troll (MM3), etc. Eventually you'll be able to take the form of a 12-headed Cryohydra thanks to Frozen Wild Shape, and when using Robilar's Gambit you'll get a 12-bite AoO on anyone who attacks you when in that form. At that level you'll also be able to turn into a War Troll, which is one of the most powerful forms available even at 20th considering every one of its special qualities is extraordinary (even DR/Adamantine still works in an AMF) so you'll get those starting at the level you can take form.

[anti-ninja]

thanks for all the help ,but I still have a simple questions which stats should I prioritize and why?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

thanks for all the help ,but I still have a simple questions which stats should I prioritize and why?

I'd make Str and Dex both 14, Con and Wis as high as possible, avoid a negative on Int, and dump Cha.

[anti-ninja]

How is this for level one?
class:wild shape variant ranger
race:human
Strength:14
constitution:15
dexterity:14
Intelligence:10
wisdom:16
charisma:6
Feats:power attack ,alertness ,nymphs kiss.
Flaws:shaky

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How is this for level one?
class:wild shape variant ranger
race:human
Strength:14
constitution:15
dexterity:14
Intelligence:10
wisdom:16
charisma:6
Feats:power attack ,alertness ,nymphs kiss.
Flaws:pathetic charisma

Swap your starting Con and Wis, and I'd get Combat Reflexes at 1st and use a reach weapon, and move Alertness to 3rd.

Edit: Also consider No Time For Book Learning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30), unless you need to roll a Knowledge check to use a particular creature's form. Also trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

[WhamBamSam]

I generally favor kalashtar over humans for MoMF, because they can qualify for Metamorphic Transfer without losing class levels with the ML on their racial PLA. That's perhaps cheesier than you want if you're just looking to bite face though, and won't really pay off until level 12, though you might get something out of the natural psionics (Psionic Weapon is pretty brutal at low levels) and the 1/day Mindlink could come in handy as well.

[anti-ninja]

no time for book learning looks great ,my dm never really makes us roll knowledge checks unless we bring it up. so something like this
class:wild shape ranger
race:human
strength:14
constitution:16
dexterity:14
intelligence:10
wisdom:15
charisma:8
feats:power attack,combat reflexes,nymphs kiss
flaws:no time for book learning

[anti-ninja]

what book are the kalashtar from?,I will probably go straight human as I am new to even attempting to optimize ,but they sound interesting.

[WhamBamSam]

what book are the kalashtar from?,I will probably go straight human as I am new to even attempting to optimize ,but they sound interesting.Races of Eberron. They're supposed to be a sort of cross between humans and the things from Dol Quor, the Realm of Planar Shepherd Cheese Dreams. The most important thing in this case is that the have a Psi-like ability with a manifester level equal to 1/2 their character level, and so can take Metamorphic Transfer at 12th level to gain access to creatures' Supernatural Abilities. As I said, it's probably cheesier than you're looking for, especially as managing a MoMF already takes a lot of book-keeping, but they are sort of cool.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

what book are the kalashtar from?,I will probably go straight human as I am new to even attempting to optimize ,but they sound interesting.

Kalashtar are from ECS, but if you're going to go that route you may as well go all out: Take Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays. That way you can turn into all the different types of Beholders and use all of their Eye Rays (but not their central eye) when in that form.

[WhamBamSam]

Kalashtar are from ECS, but if you're going to go that route you may as well go all out: Take Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape, and Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays. That way you can turn into all the different types of Beholders and use all of their Eye Rays (but not their central eye) when in that form.I'd still prefer Metamorphic Transfer, even over a widely applicable choice of Assume Supernatural Ability. Aberration Wild Shape would indeed be a good addition though, if you don't mind Aberration Blood being kind of a weak feat at low levels. I had forgotten that MoMF didn't get access to the typing natively.

[anti-ninja]

yeah master of many forms is already a lot of book keeping so i prefer to not have to do even more of it, so I will stick to human.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aberration Wild Shape would indeed be a good addition though, if you don't mind Aberration Blood being kind of a weak feat at low levels. I had forgotten that MoMF didn't get access to the typing natively.
Huh? They get it at 6th (CL 11). It might or might not be worth taking the feat anyway, depending on a number of factors (optimization levels, how long the game will go, how fast leveling will be, how easy the feats would be to retrain, etc), but MoMF will give it to you eventually.

[WhamBamSam]

Huh? They get it at 6th (CL 11). It might or might not be worth taking the feat anyway, depending on a number of factors (optimization levels, how long the game will go, how fast leveling will be, how easy the feats would be to retrain, etc), but MoMF will give it to you eventually.That explains why it's a thing that I didn't remember. It was never a thing I had known in the first place, due to not being true. I should learn never to make a statement about any D&D thing without checking the source. I make mistakes like this with far too much regularity.

[anti-ninja]

i don't think abberation wild shape would be worth it leveling in his games tends to happen pretty steadily ,but does anyone else have recommendations for my 6th 9th and 12th level feats i was thinking extra wild shape,large and in charge and frozen wild shape in that order .

[eggynack]

Might be worth picking up dragon wild shape. You get dragon forms, but the feat gives a far wider variety of abilities over a far narrower swath of dragons, so if there's a lot from that that you're not getting otherwise, then that could be worth it. Not sure though, as I lack a strong mental list of the things an MoMF character can do.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd take Multiattack over Extra Wild Shape most days. MoMF will give you plenty of uses, whereas many good combat forms have secondary attacks. I might also, considering GM ruling, think about taking Eagle Wings. I saw a wildshape combatant take that in a game a few years back when he got irritated at the lack of good flying forms. (The result was giant flying octopi, but I'll forgive him for that minor nightmare)

[WhamBamSam]

Might be worth picking up dragon wild shape. You get dragon forms, but the feat gives a far wider variety of abilities over a far narrower swath of dragons, so if there's a lot from that that you're not getting otherwise, then that could be worth it. Not sure though, as I lack a strong mental list of the things an MoMF character can do.Actually, arguably, the Dragon Wild Shape feat lets a MoMF gain (Su) abilities from larger dragons it wild shapes into when it gets that ability as a capstone. The feat says this...

You can use your wild shape ability to change into a Small or Medium dragon. You gain all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the dragon whose form you take, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcasting powers.Emphasis mine. It seems to me that the ability it gives you to assume abilities of dragons whose form you take is discrete from the ability it gives you to wild shape into small or medium dragons.

Grod's suggestion of Eagle's Wings is also a decent one (though it does kinda burn through wild shape uses unless you're pulling 15 minute-style adventuring days). I know I'm fond of the Immediate Transmutation sub-level when I'm building a wizard that's going to be spending a lot of time polymorphed into bruiser forms.

[anti-ninja]

huh I must have missed the part where MMF granted extra uses of wild shape ,so multiattack it is ,also what book is eagle wings in?

[Elandris Kajar]

huh I must have missed the part where MMF granted extra uses of wild shape ,so multiattack it is ,also what book is eagle wings in?

I believe it grants an extra wild shape every level.

[WhamBamSam]

huh I must have missed the part where MMF granted extra uses of wild shape ,so multiattack it is ,also what book is eagle wings in?Complete Divine, page 80.


I believe it grants an extra wild shape every level.Indeed.
Improved Wild Shape (Su): A master of many forms knows how to use her wild shape ability to assume a wider range of forms. At 1st level, she can assume a humanoid form with wild shape. She later gains the ability to assume the form of a giant (at 2nd level), a monstrous humanoid (at 3rd level), a fey (at 4th level), a vermin (at 5th level), an aberration (at 6th level), a plant (at 7th level), an ooze (at 8th level), an elemental (at 9th level), and a dragon (at 10th level).
The size limit of the shapes she can assume also increases as she gains levels. At 2nd level, she can assume the form of a Large creature; at 4th level, a Tiny creature; at 6th level, a Huge creature; at 8th level, a Diminutive creature; and at 10th level, a Gargantuan creature.
A master of many forms also gains one additional daily use of her wild shape ability per class level gained.
The master of many forms' class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form.Bolding mine.

[anti-ninja]

thanks I guess I overlooked that part.

[Grod_The_Giant]

thanks I guess I overlooked that part.
Yeah, it's an important part of the class-- you have enough daily uses that you can switch around to utility forms a few times, as opposed to picking a defensive or offensive form and sticking with it all day.

[anti-ninja]

well having that little fact cleared up is nice,does anyone know what book eagle wings is from ,or have a link to it?

[eggynack]

Actually, arguably, the Dragon Wild Shape feat lets a MoMF gain (Su) abilities from larger dragons it wild shapes into when it gets that ability as a capstone. The feat says this...
Emphasis mine. It seems to me that the ability it gives you to assume abilities of dragons whose form you take is discrete from the ability it gives you to wild shape into small or medium dragons.

I'm a bit dubious. That it says, "The dragon," rather than, "A dragon," indicates to me that you're gaining these abilities as a function of forms gained through the feat, rather than just from dragons in general. I suppose it's a plausible interpretation though.

[dutchieman]

At that level you'll also be able to turn into a War Troll, which is one of the most powerful forms available even at 20th considering every one of its special qualities is extraordinary (even DR/Adamantine still works in an AMF) so you'll get those starting at the level you can take form.

The damage reduction and other EX abilities might work in an AMF but wildshape(SU) doesn't work in an AMF, and unless i'm mistaken you would revert back to your normal self. So you would need to find a way around that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Seems I'm a bit late to this thread, but in defense of power attack...I'm playing a form of MoMF build currently and wish I had room for it in my build at my current level. Enemy damage reduction has been the bane of my existence, and literally anything that helps alleviate it is highly prized to me. As it is right now, my solution is to switch to Troll form (or get Girallon's Blessing and stick w/ my current form if it's high strength already) and start swinging around a Large great sword two-handed. Not magical or anything (if DR x/magic is the problem, I already get a Greater Magic Fang buff), just a giant sheet of sharp metal that lets me maximize my damage per hit.

DR 5 and even 10 is possible at early MoMF levels, and will utterly annihilate your five attack pouncing setup.

[dutchieman]

against adamantine, get a ring of adamantine touch, MiC at 6k i can help aleviate quite a bit of DR.
magic you have covered with spell.
bludgeoning, get a great club or something like that it should be cheap, and if you get a few silversheen coatings you also can use it against silver

[danzibr]

[...] so you end up with +24 damage from a -2 to hit. [...]
While everything else in this post is golden, this is simply absurd (in a good way).

[StreamOfTheSky]

against adamantine, get a ring of adamantine touch, MiC at 6k i can help aleviate quite a bit of DR.
magic you have covered with spell.
bludgeoning, get a great club or something like that it should be cheap, and if you get a few silversheen coatings you also can use it against silver

Damage type DR (bludgeon, pierce, slash) are by far the easiest to deal with. Most natural attack forms do two types and bite hits all three, and you can just shape into a form w/ the right type if necessary. That ring is super pricy just to beat the very rare DR /adamantine, good to know for very high levels, perhaps.

Are there any cheap items to make all natural attacks good-aligned, aside from applying Sacred to an amulet of mighty fists? Ghost Shroud is a nice inexpensive way to get ghost touch on all attacks, btw. It's 6500 gp, I think, but that includes +1 deflection AC, worth 2000 on its own (and you can augment it higher).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Necklace of Natural Attacks will guarantee it for one natural weapon.

[Wacky89]

You could get vow of poverty. Exalted strike at level 10 makes all your attacks good aligned.

[Troacctid]

The Sanctify Natural Attack feat (BoED) makes your natural attacks good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, as well as giving them extra damage against evil creatures.

You could also buy a Devoted Spirit Amulet and/or a Stone Dragon Belt, for 3000 gp each, to get Foehammer and/or Mountain Hammer, respectively. They're each single attacks usable once per encounter that deal 2d6 extra damage and bypass all DR. (Mountain Hammer also bypasses hardness, but can only be used if your feet are solidly on the ground.)

[anti-ninja]

You could get vow of poverty. Exalted strike at level 10 makes all your attacks good aligned. which would nice but my characters not good.
You could also buy a Devoted Spirit Amulet and/or a Stone Dragon Belt, for 3000 gp each, to get Foehammer and/or Mountain Hammer, respectively. They're each single attacks usable once per encounter that deal 2d6 extra damage and bypass all DR. (Mountain Hammer also bypasses hardness, but can only be used if your feet are solidly on the ground.) If I had access to ToB I would not playing a MoMF.