Composite Longbows

[Talakeal]

Two questions about composite longbows. One about the mechanics and the other about the ethics.

First, do you add 1 1/2 times your strength bonus to damage when wielding a composite longbow? My gut tells me know, but I can't find any rules to back this up. (PF btw).


Second, we started this game at level two several sessions ago. We started with about half the recommended WBL and I spent 300gp of it on a composite longbow for my archery focuses ranger with a 14 strength.

My DM apparently didn't notice it on my equipment list. Last night I rolled a modified "9" for damage with my bow and the DM questioned me about how it was possible. I explained that I bought a composite bow and the DM said that I should have asked him for permission before doing that as it shouldn't be allowed. I asked why, and he said that adding a strength bonus to a ranged attack at level 2 is incredibly OP and that it is poor form to ever spend more than half your money on a single item.

Does my DM have a point or is this just more of the pant's on head crazy that I seem to find whenever I pull up a chair at a gaming table?

Thanks for the advice!

[VoxRationis]

Well, no, you don't add 1.5 your Strength bonus, last time I checked. I argued once that it should, given how much of your back and arms one puts into drawing a bow, but it's sadly not the case as the rules currently stand.

I have seen guidelines posted in books and whatnot saying not to spend more than half one's starting gold on one item, but in this particular instance, I don't think it's terrible for you to have a good bow at 2nd level.

[AvatarVecna]

The damage bonus is never going to be anything even remotely comparable to melee damage bonuses, especially not at level 2, no matter what you do. That said, archery DPR is pitiful even using the more OP builds; taking stuff away is just cruelty. Beyond that, even if I agreed that it made archers ridiculously powerful (it doesn't, it just makes them competitive), casters would still be far more powerful than that. Without leaving Core, a Cleric has Bless (+1 morale bonus to attacks for the cleric and all their allies within 50 ft), Divine Favor (+1 luck bonus to attack and damage rolls for the cleric), and Magic Weapon (+1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage for the weapon's wielder). Even just Bless on its own increases the party's DPR by far more than your piddly +2 damage per shot from using a Composite Longbow, and they didn't have to spend money to cast Bless. And this is at level 2, when the disparity between martial PCs and caster PCs is at its smallest. It's not overpowered in the slightest. I would argue that spending more than half your WBL on a single item is often frowned upon, mostly because doing so is easy when starting at higher levels, but is extremely difficult to do intentionally if you play from level 1, but you're level 2, so it's not that hard to imagine...especially since you're an archery specialist.

So yeah. Spending that much money on just your bow is definitely questionable, but it's close enough to reasonable that I wouldn't care if you did it in one of my games. The complaint about it being too powerful is not only unwarranted, but still leaves the blame on him: either he should've told you about that beforehand ("I know you're an archer, but don't get a composite bow yet; I feel it's too powerful for level 2"), or he should've checked over your character sheet more thoroughly, noticed it, and informed you of it then. Doing so in the middle of the game when you had no idea about that being an issue is on him, not on you.

[Hrugner]

This sounds more like a DM who lacks perspective than anything else. 1d8+2 at range is nice and all, but at a level where 2d6+8 is pretty reasonable for a melee I think it's a bit on the flimsy side.

Just ask him when he thinks it will be reasonable and spend the leftover money on say... a few spears. Heck, buy a sling and stones for the 1d4+2 and hope he gets the idea.

[Mendicant]

Navigating DMs like this is one of gaming's great chores. The general ban on dropping more than half your WBL on a single item is because it tends to make the owner swingy--he has a crazy powerful item for that level but big deficits in other areas. That is not happening here.

Your DM is indeed pants on head crazy.

[Talakeal]

Ok, so two clarify the damage modifier thing:

Two handed weapons get 1.5x strength to damage.

Bows are not listed as "two handed weapons" they are merely "ranged weapons" that require two hands to use?

I guess that makes sense from a literal RAW perspective, but is that actually how it is supposed to work?

[Hrugner]

composite bows give their own specific rules on strength in their entry.


this feature allows you to add your Strength modifier on damage rolls, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow.

[Rubik]

composite bows give their own specific rules on strength in their entry.Which is yet another way to screw over the fantasy archer archetype.

All the awesome goes to two-hander melee Power Attackers, while everyone else gets screwed.

[DeltaEmil]

Which is yet another way to screw over the fantasy archer archetype.

All the awesome goes to two-hander melee Power Attackers, while everyone else gets screwed.Ah, but see, melee combatants have to be in melee range where they might get hurt, while ranged combatants can safely shoot at opponents... until the opposition simply pulls out their own ranged weapons or the encounter starts at so close range that they can charge in the next round, or the enemy is a spellcaster, or other stuff that makes ranged combat not really worthwhile... :smallyuk:

[Elandris Kajar]

The only spend one half your WBL on one item should not be used until level 5-ish.

[Keltest]

Ah, but see, melee combatants have to be in melee range where they might get hurt, while ranged combatants can safely shoot at opponents... until the opposition simply pulls out their own ranged weapons or the encounter starts at so close range that they can charge in the next round, or the enemy is a spellcaster, or other stuff that makes ranged combat not really worthwhile... :smallyuk:

In this case, its actually based in realism, at least to a degree. With a sword or other melee weapon, swinging harder makes you hit harder without any particular added danger to the weapon (to a point, obviously. Eventually you could theoretically smash your sword, but probably not by cutting someone). A bow on the other hand cant just be drawn further to make the arrows fly farther and hit harder. That's where the compound part comes in. Compound bows were more "springy" and could be drawn back further than regular bows of similar quality and length without damaging the bow. However that still only held true to a very much reachable point, hence the cap on added STR bonus.

[Sacrieur]

Ok, so two clarify the damage modifier thing:

Two handed weapons get 1.5x strength to damage.

Bows are not listed as "two handed weapons" they are merely "ranged weapons" that require two hands to use?

I guess that makes sense from a literal RAW perspective, but is that actually how it is supposed to work?

That's how bows work in real life.

Bows can only deliver up to so much force. A 50 pound bow for instance can only ever deliver 50 pounds of force regardless of how strong the archer is: there is only so much potential energy it can store. That's why composite bows give extra damage but require a higher strength mod.

[Necroticplague]

9 damage isn't too much at any level. Adding STR to damage to a certain level isn't overpowering even remotely. After all, basic melee does that by default. Your DM is a moron. The general tip about "no more than half WBL" doesn't really apply at such low levels, when its magic items using up that wealth. Meanwhile, he also should have known you had it when you bought it.

[Palanan]

I don't see anything in the OP which justifies calling the DM in question a "moron," or "crazy," or anything else derogatory. He has a different approach--and the world is full of people with different approaches. Calling them all morons might sound cool, but it really isn't.

Failures of communication usually involve both parties. It's certainly true that the DM should have mentioned any particular concerns about bow types to the party archer. It's also true that the player of the archer should have told his DM what weapon he purchased, in order to avoid exactly this situation.

[Sacrieur]

I don't see anything in the OP which justifies calling the DM in question a "moron," or "crazy," or anything else derogatory. He has a different approach--and the world is full of people with different approaches. Calling them all morons might sound cool, but it really isn't.

Well, at the very least he's not very competent. A +2 bonus to damage at level 2 is literally nothing and a composite bow is in the CRB. If the DM didn't want player's using this super mega powerful weapon he should have told them.

[Psyren]

I don't see anything in the OP which justifies calling the DM in question a "moron," or "crazy," or anything else derogatory. He has a different approach--and the world is full of people with different approaches. Calling them all morons might sound cool, but it really isn't.

Failures of communication usually involve both parties. It's certainly true that the DM should have mentioned any particular concerns about bow types to the party archer. It's also true that the player of the archer should have told his DM what weapon he purchased, in order to avoid exactly this situation.

All of this. There is fault on both sides here and it's really easy to avoid.

[Talakeal]

It's also true that the player of the archer should have told his DM what weapon he purchased, in order to avoid exactly this situation.

I gave him my character sheet to look over, he just didn't notice it. Are you actually saying players should verbally get their DM's approval before purchasing mundane starting equipment?

That sounds extremely tedious and annoying for everyone involved. I wouldn't want to do it when I am DMing, and I certainly wouldn't want to sit around as a player and watch the other 5 people at the table go through and list off their equipment piece by piece.


That's how bows work in real life.

Bows can only deliver up to so much force. A 50 pound bow for instance can only ever deliver 50 pounds of force regardless of how strong the archer is: there is only so much potential energy it can store. That's why composite bows give extra damage but require a higher strength mod.


In this case, its actually based in realism, at least to a degree. With a sword or other melee weapon, swinging harder makes you hit harder without any particular added danger to the weapon (to a point, obviously. Eventually you could theoretically smash your sword, but probably not by cutting someone). A bow on the other hand cant just be drawn further to make the arrows fly farther and hit harder. That's where the compound part comes in. Compound bows were more "springy" and could be drawn back further than regular bows of similar quality and length without damaging the bow. However that still only held true to a very much reachable point, hence the cap on added STR bonus.

I am not asking why bows have a set strength, I am asking why the "two handed weapons = 1.5x strength modifier to damage" rule does not apply to them.

[Sacrieur]

I am not asking why bows have a set strength, I am asking why the "two handed weapons = 1.5x strength modifier to damage" rule does not apply to them.

You're only using one hand to pull the bow. I suppose if you used both hands to pull the bow string...

[Psyren]

I gave him my character sheet to look over, he just didn't notice it. Are you actually saying players should verbally get their DM's approval before purchasing mundane starting equipment?

That sounds extremely tedious and annoying for everyone involved. I wouldn't want to do it when I am DMing, and I certainly wouldn't want to sit around as a player and watch the other 5 people at the table go through and list off their equipment piece by piece.

Err, starting equipment is one of the most important purchases in the game, and especially starting weapon (since there could easily be elements of the player's backstory in that choice that I might need to know for hooks later on.) You'd better believe that I'd want the players to be very clear about what they got and didn't get at that level.

If you provided the sheet in good faith and he didn't read it, that's on him, but good faith depends on factors we don't know, like how far in advance of the first session you gave it to him to review, how many other sheets he was reviewing at that point in time, were there lengthy backstories attached to each one etc.

Incidentally, how is it you're always finding these bad/unreasonable DMs?



I am not asking why bows have a set strength, I am asking why the "two handed weapons = 1.5x strength modifier to damage" rule does not apply to them.

Because specific trumps general, and "add your strength modifier" is not the same as "add 1.5x your strength modifier." Since composite bows specifically say the former, it trumps the general rule for the latter, even if the latter did apply to bows to begin with.

[Morty]

You don't normally add your Strength modifier to bow damage. You do add it with a one-handed weapon. The progression is clear and logical. It's not fair, but it's logical.

[Talakeal]

Err, starting equipment is one of the most important purchases in the game, and especially starting weapon (since there could easily be elements of the player's backstory in that choice that I might need to know for hooks later on.) You'd better believe that I'd want the players to be very clear about what they got and didn't get at that level.

If you provided the sheet in good faith and he didn't read it, that's on him, but good faith depends on factors we don't know, like how far in advance of the first session you gave it to him to review, how many other sheets he was reviewing at that point in time, were there lengthy backstories attached to each one etc.

Incidentally, how is it you're always finding these bad/unreasonable DMs?


Same DM actually.

The first session we all made our characters, then we gave him the sheets to look over. The following week he gave them back to us and said everything looked good and the game started.




Because specific trumps general, and "add your strength modifier" is not the same as "add 1.5x your strength modifier." Since composite bows specifically say the former, it trumps the general rule for the latter, even if the latter did apply to bows to begin with.

Yeah, I get that now, I was just responding to the people who seemed to think that I was objecting for "realism" reasons to the concept of composite bows having to set their strength for a given user.

Its just a weird situation and I think the book could be a little clearer about them not adding 1.5x strength. I imagine it isn't because they added the 1.5x strength rule for 2 handed weapons in 3.5 but just kept the 3.0 text for bows.

On a related note, are there any other two handed ranged weapons in the game that allow you to add strength to damage?

[Necroticplague]

I don't see anything in the OP which justifies calling the DM in question a "moron," or "crazy," or anything else derogatory. He has a different approach--and the world is full of people with different approaches. Calling them all morons might sound cool, but it really isn't.

Thinking that 9 points of damage is impossibly high when there are weapons that do 2d6 or 1d12 damage by default seems pretty moronic.


On a related note, are there any other two handed ranged weapons in the game that allow you to add strength to damage?
I think the Footbow lets you do this.

[HurinTheCursed]

Assuming you don't count thrown weapons, you can count very few ranged weapons (I can only think of bows) that do.

9 damage isn't overpowered compared to melee options. It's strong for range but since range is far from overpowered so who cares !

If a low level fighter or a paladin tank wanted to spend most of his WBL on a mundane fullplate armor, would it be overpowered ?

[Talakeal]

Assuming you don't count thrown weapons, you can count very few ranged weapons (I can only think of bows) that do.


Are there any two handed thrown weapons?

[AvatarVecna]

Are there any two handed thrown weapons?

If you have the "Throw Anything" feat, any weapon is a thrown weapon. And yes, there's builds that can take advantage of that. Be careful, though: throwing a light or one-handed weapon can be done as a standard or iterative attack; throwing a two-handed weapon takes a full round action.

[Rubik]

Are there any two handed thrown weapons?Any of them that aren't light weapons.

[Hrugner]

Are there any two handed thrown weapons?

The only two handed weapon, that isn't exotic, listed with a range is the spear, you'd get 1d8+1.5str x3 crit at 20 feet. There are ranged weapons that are used two handed, but since they aren't 2 handed weapons it would be up to the DM and I'm guessing that's unlikely. That would give you your damage, and maybe soften the DM up a bit.

[Agent 451]

Are there any two handed thrown weapons?

I'm not sure if it was updated anywhere, but there is a caber in Masters of the Wild. It's an exotic weapon, though.

[Keltest]

I'm not sure if it was updated anywhere, but there is a caber in Masters of the Wild. It's an exotic weapon, though.

a... caber. As in... a caber. Like, a Scottish caber?

I see no problems with this. None at all.

[Talakeal]

a... caber. As in... a caber. Like, a Scottish caber?

I see no problems with this. None at all.

That's actually the only thing that comes to mind when I try and picture a two handed throwing weapon.

[Keltest]

That's actually the only thing that comes to mind when I try and picture a two handed throwing weapon.

Perhaps a nice throwing axe?

[Rubik]

That's actually the only thing that comes to mind when I try and picture a two handed throwing weapon.Halflings make great throwing weapons, and they're usable two-handed: The two grips are on the bottom, right where they wear their boots.

[Vizzerdrix]

I have some very negative opinions of your DM from your description. All I will say is No, you don't get 1.5 str on bows, and no, getting a composite bow at any level isn't OP.

[General Sajaru]

Pretty much everything that needs to be said has been. However, next time I DM, I may houserule that composite bows add 1.5x strength. Either that, or I'll create another, slight more expensive "composite+" bow that gives that.

[martixy]

Is he willing to learn?

I have come to hold the opinion that the nuclear option should always be strongly considered.
That is to say, ditching the session.

[Jarmen4u]

Since nobody has mentioned it, Footbows are a type of bow that gives x2 Str to damage. The only issue is, you have to draw it back with both hands, and brace it with your feet. Nice for flying, but if prone, you take a -4(citation needed) to hit.

[Nagukuk]

Did the second level fighter buy a master work weapon?

[Talakeal]

Did the second level fighter buy a master work weapon?

We dont have a fighter and masterwork weapons were not available to use.

[Psyren]

Since nobody has mentioned it, Footbows are a type of bow that gives x2 Str to damage. The only issue is, you have to draw it back with both hands, and brace it with your feet. Nice for flying, but if prone, you take a -4(citation needed) to hit.

The citation you requested for this is RotW pg. 165: "A footbow can be used on the ground, but the archer must be prone to do so and takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll."

It's confusingly worded though. It says you need to be prone AND take a -4 penalty to hit. Does that mean this is the regular "shooting a bow while prone" penalty, or is this in addition to that penalty?

[Mendicant]

Is he doing some kind of radical houseruling that brings monster HP down to bargain basement levels or something? Is he handing out non-equipment bonuses to attack and saves? What's the rationale on forcibly keeping your gear so piddly?

[Talakeal]

Is he doing some kind of radical houseruling that brings monster HP down to bargain basement levels or something? Is he handing out non-equipment bonuses to attack and saves? What's the rationale on forcibly keeping your gear so piddly?

Just your standard DM using low wealth to challenge / control the players routine.

[Rubik]

Just your standard DM using low wealth to challenge / control the players routine.So, he's screwing over the low-tier classes while not really hampering the higher-tier ones at all.

Gotcha.

[Mendicant]

That sucks dude. I DM and I mess with wealth expectations all the time, but that's mostly because I try to replace those basic "your numbers go up because they need to go up" items like cloaks of resistance with one-off story rewards. Trying to keep composite bows and masterwork weapons out people's hands is just weird. I don't think he really understands what gear will and will not fundamentally change his game.

[Oddman80]

well... if you can make the DC 20 Craft check you could just make yourself a Masterwork Composite Longbow.
Having seen the dangers that are out in the world, it would be foolish to continue without higher quality equipment...

after the 2nd or 3rd week of you sitting around working on crafting yourself a bow... maybe he will change his mind and let you purchase one.

[SinsI]

That's how bows work in real life.

Bows can only deliver up to so much force. A 50 pound bow for instance can only ever deliver 50 pounds of force regardless of how strong the archer is: there is only so much potential energy it can store. That's why composite bows give extra damage but require a higher strength mod.
That's why people invented crossbows that can reach 500 pounds of force.
And with magic and Epic strength in D&D you should be able to make (cross)bows that are capable of dealing much, much more damage than the real world one.

[Talakeal]

well... if you can make the DC 20 Craft check you could just make yourself a Masterwork Composite Longbow.
Having seen the dangers that are out in the world, it would be foolish to continue without higher quality equipment...

after the 2nd or 3rd week of you sitting around working on crafting yourself a bow... maybe he will change his mind and let you purchase one.

Crafting items, both magical and mundane, is forbidden by house rules. The DM really doesn't like players having a say in their own equipment, and it goes without saying that magic items are never bought or sold.

[Agent 451]

Since nobody has mentioned it, Footbows are a type of bow that gives x2 Str to damage. The only issue is, you have to draw it back with both hands, and brace it with your feet. Nice for flying, but if prone, you take a -4(citation needed) to hit.

Where does it say footbows give a x2 Strength bonus to damage? All I can find is that they do 1.5x (RotW, p.165).

[Elandris Kajar]

Crafting items, both magical and mundane, is forbidden by house rules. The DM really doesn't like players having a say in their own equipment, and it goes without saying that magic items are never bought or sold.

How do you ever survive high levels?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Crafting items, both magical and mundane, is forbidden by house rules. The DM really doesn't like players having a say in their own equipment, and it goes without saying that magic items are never bought or sold.

How... but why? It makes characters so bland to not have good equipment since a lot of strategies are enabled by gear.

[Mendicant]

How do you ever survive high levels?

You don't. The campaign wobbles and falls apart before anybody gets there. Either that or the DM doesn't really understand his monster's capabilities and they don't require very much power to kill outside of the occasional weapon of plot device.

[Keltest]

You don't. The campaign wobbles and falls apart before anybody gets there. Either that or the DM doesn't really understand his monster's capabilities and they don't require very much power to kill outside of the occasional weapon of plot device.

All of the above. Talakeal is becoming rather infamous for his GM. I think its him anyway.

[Talakeal]

The DM kind of believes in a sort of reverse optimization approach.

The monsters just run straight at us and target random people each round. He believes that having a monster use hit and run tactics (or remaining stationary in a place where the PCs can't melee them) is killer DMing and believes that it is meta-gaming to have monsters choose who they attack.

[Necroticplague]

So....he makes sure PCs are pathetically weak to compensate for the fact enemies are complete morons?

[ksbsnowowl]

It's confusingly worded though. It says you need to be prone AND take a -4 penalty to hit. Does that mean this is the regular "shooting a bow while prone" penalty, or is this in addition to that penalty?
You cannot normally fire a bow from prone (crossbows are the only Core ranged weapons you can use from prone, IIRC), so this is effectively the same penalty as attacking from prone in melee.

[atemu1234]

I fail to see how 1.5x str would break the game.

[Talakeal]

So....he makes sure PCs are pathetically weak to compensate for the fact enemies are complete morons?

More or less.

He says he does it because he hates the "power gamer" mentality and he wants to deemphasize the tactical combat portions of the game because "if he wanted to do that he would just play World of Warcraft".

[Elandris Kajar]

"if he wanted to do that he would just play World of Warcraft".

Wow. Just wow. Surely it is the opposite. You are limited by WoW. D&D is all about being able to do whatever you can dream of.

[anti-ninja]

"if he wanted to do that he would just play World of Warcraft".
Wow. Just wow. Surely it is the opposite. You are limited by WoW. D&D is all about being able to do whatever you can dream of. also there are far more tactical games then WOW anyway ,so I fail to see what remnants of logic he has.

[MesiDoomstalker]

From my understanding of WoW (note: complete outsider's perspective), WoW isn't even that tactical. Most high level play, from what I heard, has a few tried and true methods of beating, which may take a tactical mind to derive to begin with, takes none to follow afterwards. IE; do your job, don't question it, we win the raid (how my Husband describes it).

[anti-ninja]

from my understanding high level raids in WOW do take a decent amount of tactical skill ,just not as much as games from genres with tactics in there names.

[RolkFlameraven]

Are you having fun with this? I mean if he is up in arms over 9 HP when you could do that with a max roll and PBS I'd be very worried about his thoughts on ranged combat before str even enters into it.

[Keltest]

from my understanding high level raids in WOW do take a decent amount of tactical skill ,just not as much as games from genres with tactics in there names.

High level raids take little tactical skill to execute. Theyre all very formulaic. You either stand in the fire and die, or move out of it and win. The tank either holds agro or they don't. You either have enough DPS or you don't. etc...

[Psyren]

Does my DM have a point or is this just more of the pant's on head crazy that I seem to find whenever I pull up a chair at a gaming table?

Thanks for the advice!

To comprehensively answer the question in the OP:

1) Your DM, particularly given your statement in #21 that he's the same guy you've made threads about in the past, has very odd ideas about game balance and is being overly strict/tightfisted with party resources as a result. He furthermore does not appear to be adequately considering the ramifications of that choice on both the game's difficulty and its fun for the players.

2) He is doubly at fault for not reviewing your sheet when he evidently had a week in advance of session one to do so.

3) Having said that, such an important weapon to your concept could stand a little more emphasis, even something as simple as "I draw/fire my composite longbow" prior to rolling damage That should help both of you avoid any misunderstandings in the future, could potentially help him a great deal and doesn't cost you very much at all.

4) I'm compelled to point out that another 5 pages of people chiming in to say "man you're right, your DM sucks/is weird/is a jerk" is not going to solve anything further, especially if you keep going back to that table without a confrontation or even ultimatum of some kind.

[anti-ninja]

High level raids take little tactical skill to execute. Theyre all very formulaic. You either stand in the fire and die, or move out of it and win. The tank either holds agro or they don't. You either have enough DPS or you don't. etc... really i thought if you were playing in a guild they at least required teamwork and coordination.

[SinsI]

Crafting items, both magical and mundane, is forbidden by house rules. The DM really doesn't like players having a say in their own equipment, and it goes without saying that magic items are never bought or sold.

Seems like a good place to try Totemist and Druid with Vow of Poverty. What does that DM say about VoP?

[MesiDoomstalker]

really i thought if you were playing in a guild they at least required teamwork and coordination.

From my understanding, just as much as DnD (though admittedly, with a lot more players involved).

[Keltest]

really i thought if you were playing in a guild they at least required teamwork and coordination.

It varies. Certainly everyone needs to be on the same page and know the battle plan, but AFAIK there aren't many raids where you have something like "These 6 levers must be pulled within 3 seconds of each other" type coordination.

[anti-ninja]

It varies. Certainly everyone needs to be on the same page and know the battle plan, but AFAIK there aren't many raids where you have something like "These 6 levers must be pulled within 3 seconds of each other" type coordination. I guess that shows how much i know about WOW,still I think tactics can be applied to any game just the degree of how much varies.

[Talakeal]

Seems like a good place to try Totemist and Druid with Vow of Poverty. What does that DM say about VoP?

What do you THINK he says about VoP?


He bans it of course. He also bans monks. He also bans wild-shape and animal companions, not because he thinks it they are too good but because they are underpowered and he gives druids cleric domains instead. He also thinks weapon specialization is better than natural spell..

[anti-ninja]

What do you THINK he says about VoP?


He bans it of course. He also bans monks. He also bans wild-shape and animal companions, not because he thinks it they are too good but because they are underpowered and he gives druids cleric domains instead. He also thinks weapon specialization is better than natural spell.. ban the monk ..ban the monk why no it can't be cause he thinks they are OP I must be seeing that wrong heh heh...:smalleek:,question why do you still play with this guy?

[Jarmen4u]

Where does it say footbows give a x2 Strength bonus to damage? All I can find is that they do 1.5x (RotW, p.165).

You're right, I mis-remembered.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
4) I'm compelled to point out that another 5 pages of people chiming in to say "man you're right, your DM sucks/is weird/is a jerk" is not going to solve anything further, especially if you keep going back to that table without a confrontation or even ultimatum of some kind.

I have to agree. It seems that there's much less interest in finding a way to improve communication, and thus improve the game for everyone, than in receiving validation and sympathy for the DM not measuring up to this or that expectation, or holding opinions which the OP knows the Playground will disparage.

[Talakeal]

I have to agree. It seems that there's much less interest in finding a way to improve communication, and thus improve the game for everyone, than in receiving validation and sympathy for the DM not measuring up to this or that expectation, or holding opinions which the OP knows the Playground will disparage.

I 100% agree, I did not start this thread to "improve communication".

In fact, the last time someone suggested my DM and I communicate better to improve the game the DM in question said "What for? I am the DM, my opinion is the only one that matters. Why waste time with communication?" That was almost a direct quote :(

Frankly I don't think either of us are going to change our opinions, but I do hope I can find some level of power which won't cause constant conflict.

But as they say, even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile, and so I was wondering if there was something I was overlooking with my build.

Honestly this game feels like a tightrope walk. I alternate between getting chewed out for being OP and being underpowered every session, and I don't want to tow the line by making an intentionally OP character. Indeed, the reason I am playing an archer is because I spent the whole game by told I was a munchkin for playing a core only single class great sword human fighter without power attack and I was looking for something less powerful that was not already banned, and as I have absolutely NO desire to try playing a paladin in this game ranger was it.

[Rubik]

Why do you want to subject yourself to this waste of flesh at all?

[ksbsnowowl]

Why do you want to subject yourself to this waste of flesh at all?

Agreed. I'm sure the other players have issues with the DM's lack of style. Have someone else be the DM. Are you at all interested in trying on the DM mantle? It's a different kind of fun, but a more fulfilling one, IMO. Takes a lot more work, though.

[Keltest]

I 100% agree, I did not start this thread to "improve communication".

In fact, the last time someone suggested my DM and I communicate better to improve the game the DM in question said "What for? I am the DM, my opinion is the only one that matters. Why waste time with communication?" That was almost a direct quote :(

Frankly I don't think either of us are going to change our opinions, but I do hope I can find some level of power which won't cause constant conflict.

But as they say, even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile, and so I was wondering if there was something I was overlooking with my build.

Honestly this game feels like a tightrope walk. I alternate between getting chewed out for being OP and being underpowered every session, and I don't want to tow the line by making an intentionally OP character. Indeed, the reason I am playing an archer is because I spent the whole game by told I was a munchkin for playing a core only single class great sword human fighter without power attack and I was looking for something less powerful that was not already banned, and as I have absolutely NO desire to try playing a paladin in this game ranger was it.

Well whatever it is youre doing now obviously isn't working. I know its hard, but I think you need to either get together with the other players and confront your DM, or leave.

[Hrugner]

This thread really just makes me feel like I've been too hard on some of my DMs over the years. They had weird rules and all that, but they made some sort of sense.

[Roog]

Has anyone asked yet why you keep playing?

[Necroticplague]

Has anyone asked yet why you keep playing?

Yes. Practically every thread he starts.

[torrasque666]

Mah boy, roll20.net looks like it may very well be your best of friends.

[HurinTheCursed]

I 100% agree, I did not start this thread to "improve communication".

In fact, the last time someone suggested my DM and I communicate better to improve the game the DM in question said "What for? I am the DM, my opinion is the only one that matters. Why waste time with communication?" That was almost a direct quote :(
Too bad, a role playing game is a band of people trying to have fun together, making some concessions for it if needed. If your DM doesn't care about your group having fun, either deal with it or quit :(


Honestly this game feels like a tightrope walk. I alternate between getting chewed out for being OP and being underpowered every session, and I don't want to tow the line by making an intentionally OP character.
Either encounters are easy enough and your low optimization and equipment limitation will not kill your character, or they aren't and you will have to reroll another low optimized character, but from a better tier in which you are less equipment dependant (wizards depend on scrolls found or bought :( ).
Mundane near-core with low WBL and no equipment choice will not fare well in combat, even less an archer. Any undead denies most arrow damage.
Maybe the focus of the campaign is not combat (and then why pick d&d 3.X ?) and your fun is not that much damaged by his decisions ?

[Xerlith]

why do you still play with this guy?

Seconding this so hard. I don't know if anyone else reiterated the question, so I thought I'd reiterate this question.
A joke this is, yes.

From what I've seen, that DM possesses less knowledge about D&D than my little sister, who attempted to play it once in her entire life...

I wish I was hyperboling.

[Psyren]

I have to agree. It seems that there's much less interest in finding a way to improve communication, and thus improve the game for everyone, than in receiving validation and sympathy for the DM not measuring up to this or that expectation, or holding opinions which the OP knows the Playground will disparage.


Why do you want to subject yourself to this waste of flesh at all?


Has anyone asked yet why you keep playing?


Seconding this so hard. I don't know if anyone else reiterated the question, so I thought I'd reiterate this question.

As near as I can tell the answer appears to be "limitless thread fodder." Though I guess that DM is the only one available for a hundred miles, or something?


Yes. Practically every thread he starts.

^

[Talakeal]

Long story short, I am a sucker.

I have left the game several times. The problem is the DM is a player in another campaign I am in which is far far far more fun, and I can't cut off all contact with the problem DM or get really nasty with him without ruining the other game.

I have left his campaign several times, but the problem is he always comes to me with a sob story and begs me to come back, and I just don't have the fortitude to keep saying no.

[ksbsnowowl]

I have left his campaign several times, but the problem is he always comes to me with a sob story and begs me to come back, and I just don't have the fortitude to keep saying no.Masochism is a valid choice, I guess, if you enjoy it.

Not much else to say.

[Elandris Kajar]

I have left his campaign several times, but the problem is he always comes to me with a sob story and begs me to come back, and I just don't have the fortitude to keep saying no.

Finally! A use for great fortitude!

[Xerlith]

Masochism is a valid choice, I guess, if you enjoy it.

Not much else to say.

Yea. Seems like you have too weak of a heart.

Here's what you should do next time he comes to you:

https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0399/93/1431820111562.gif

[Roog]

Long story short, I am a sucker.

I have left the game several times. The problem is the DM is a player in another campaign I am in which is far far far more fun, and I can't cut off all contact with the problem DM or get really nasty with him without ruining the other game.

I have left his campaign several times, but the problem is he always comes to me with a sob story and begs me to come back, and I just don't have the fortitude to keep saying no.

So use that.

Tell the GM, that no communication means that the game is not for you. If he agrees to it, then make sure you hold him to that agreement. If he won't agree to that, and you drop out, then you can use that approach again when he asks you to play again. Be reasonable, but firm.

If you care about what other players think, then make sure they understand your approach - otherwise thy may get the impression that you are trying to hold the game hostage.

[anti-ninja]

So use that.

Tell the GM, that no communication means that the game is not for you. If he agrees to it, then make sure you hold him to that agreement. If he won't agree to that, and you drop out, then you can use that approach again when he asks you to play again. Be reasonable, but firm.

If you care about what other players think, then make sure they understand your approach - otherwise thy may get the impression that you are trying to hold the game hostage. this ,leave if he comes with a sob story again make him agree to change some of his BS housrules and stance on communication