Building a Bard. Need Major help.

[Jeargroth]

Good-day Fellow Players,

I am trying to play with some of the lesser lower tiered classes to make unique combinations. I stumbled across a Bard thread that was mostly dead from 2007, so a lot of broken links which would have provided the requisite information needed to make the build. I don't know enough about the rules as some of my fellow forum goers so hence my coming to you for help with this build.

Goals. Bard Buffer, with decent spell casting or decent melee. Prefer the spell casting as you will see in my chosen prestige classes.

I am looking at the Bard 7/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Cord 1/ Virtuoso 9...This is definitely not set in stone. I am looking for ability to Double Bardic Music or Triple if possible. I am looking at Leadership or Wild Cohort to buff and let them do my damage. I have a listing of Feats but if you have others that are better please let me know. I will be taking 2 flaws at level 1 leaving us 10 feats by level 18 with a human/racial bonus feat.

These are the feats I thought would help nicely:

Force of Personality
Heroic Spirit
Lingering Music
Melodic Casting
Song of the Heart
Versatile Performer
Captivating Melody
Snowflake Ward Dance
Wild Cohort
Dragonfire inspiration
Words of Creation
Extra music

Again if you have better ones let me know. The ability to Dual Sing a Bardic inspiration would be a goal so not sure how to do it other than War Chanter.

So HELP!!! please.

Or if you could point me in the direction of a decent handbook. Yes I have checked out the Bard one...here lots of info no builds from which to work.

[AvatarVecna]

The build you've got is pretty good for bardic music, but I generally consider spells to be better for buffing. This build...

Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Uncanny Trickster 1/Sublime Chord 2/Uncanny Trickster +2/Mindbender 1/Archmage 5

...uses early entry tricks to get into War Weaver at level 5, then uses Uncanny Trickster to advance War Weaver further. This gives both class feature and spellcasting advancement; the first lets you affect everyone in your Eldritch Tapestry with spells up to level 7, while the second lets you use the "extra" War Weaver levels to advance casting (which you use to advance Sublime Chord casting). You end up with full Sublime Chord casting progression, the Arcane Power bardic music, some basic bardic music of other kinds, and wonderful buffing capabilities.

Be warned: if you're intending to use this in an actual game, make sure to run it by your DM first, because it uses early entry tricks, Uncanny Trickster cheese, Sublime Chord advanced casting, War Weaver buffing, Archmage boosts, and mindsight from Mindbender. It's an absolute mess, and it's a wonderfully powerful buffer, but there's a lot of stuff that a DM might object to.

[Jeargroth]

The Hot Mess of Bard 4 plus War Weaver is just that HOT... however might be beyond my capabilities to playout... Will keep it in mind for a Villain though. Cause as GM I wouldn't care.

I saw the idea of both singing the Dragon fire inspiration with the Inspire ability dual songs... allowing my team and my cohorts (who will be doing the heavy lifting for my character) to do the most damage. Also makes my team a little better, so nobody will feel left out.

[animewatcha]

What sources are allowed? There are 2 feats ( one is a feat-tax ) that can do the dual performance for you. Also, there are a few prestige classes and spells ( gotta work with them a bit which may taken up multiple turns ) to accomplish dual song. Heck, having more than 2 songs at once.

-sidenote- what is the bard 4 early entry trick into war weaver?

[Socratov]

Well, forst off, watch your swift actions, you can either go for the improved inspiration spell or badges of valour. One casting only applies to the next bardic music effect you make and since you get only one swift action per turn.

That said, your build is not yet complete, you see, you can only take Sublime Chord (due to the skill requirements) at lvl 11 for the first level, so you need to go Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9. For having dual songs, it's ok to to take multiple turns and use lingering song anyway, so that's ok.

But wait, there is more, if you have casters in your party, they will love you if you would play Song of Arcane power as a Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8. Now you are looking at buffing matrial characters and casters (if you don't have casters in your party ignore what I said here).

Hold up! If you take some advice now, you can be the absolute awesomest thing since sliced bread for the low cost of 2 of the less useful songs and your bardic knowledge. You trade away Fascination and Suggestion as well as Bardic knowledge and get in return (respectively): Healing Hymn, Song of the Heart(as in, the feat) and Bardic Knack. Invest a point in everything is you have the skillpoints, and be able to use every skill ever. Healing Hymn, by the way, allows you to increase your casterlevel

As for feats you really want:

Lingering Song is pretty much standard issue,
Words of Creation as well, so be CG,
Dragonfire Inspiration is pretty much the goal of this list.

Then, to buff your party in other things or to debuff the enemy,

Melodic Casting,
Lyrical spell,
[Metamagic 1, like extend]
[metamagic 2, like heighten]
Metamagic Song

This should cover your 18 available feats. If flaws are allowed take Jack of all Trades to round out the build (save skillpoints for those real useful things and still lets you use every skill ever), or Chaos Music (advancing Bard by 4 levels up to HD, so you will count as a bard 12/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 for the puropses of determining Bardic Music capabilities).

Do these things and you will be pretty much the epitome of bardness.

Oh, and one thing, using this build you will need to say goodbye to people with a hearthy "Rock on".

That is all. Hope this helps you rock your game. :smallcool:

[Jeargroth]

Yeah that looks bout right... Found the other one... Both are classes... War Chanter and Seeker of the Song... one requires a 2 level Dip the other requires 5... is there a feat that allows one to combine songs? I could do the sing one round and let it last a minute and do another though too, but was looking for efficiency. There has to be a feat for this right?

also finally found another feat to try to squeeze in Talfirian Song:

Great Googly Moogly... I will have a hard time fitting in feats at this point.

9 feats by 15 -
Lingering Song
Words of Creation
Dragonfire Inspiration
Melodic Casting
Lyrical spell (this is the casting while singing right?)
Extra music
Song of the Heart
Snowflake dance
Talifiran Song

so far the ones i need

Plus the Feat if it exists that allows dual singing per action round.

[Troacctid]

Seeker of the Song lets you combine songs, but it doesn't advance casting.

I'd skip Lingering Song. It's a good effect in Pathfinder, but it's pretty useless in 3.5--encounters just don't last that long. You also don't need Snowflake Wardance. Weapon attacks are not really what you want to be doing as a Bard.

Lyric Spell isn't to cast while singing, it's to cast spells from bardic music uses rather than spell slots. Melodic Casting is to cast while singing. You can skip Lyric Spell easily enough if you don't have room for it.

Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar are both pretty strong on Bards, due to familiars sharing all your skill ranks and receiving bardic music buffs.

[Socratov]

Seeker of the Song is not a good prestige class. It doesn't advance IC, nor Bardic Knowledge, nor casting and the effects you get in return are very much not worth it. Also, alas, there is no feat that lets you perform 2 bardic musics at the same time. Besides, IC optimisation is setup thus that doing so would not get everything out of it (since you will be using all your action types for the turn to get as much IC as possible).

As for lingering song not being viable, it is, because the songs that don't last 5 rounds get extended as well to a couple of rounds, which can mkae a huge difference. And I don't know what kind of rocket tag you play, but I have frequently ventured past the 5 round mark. But that might be just my group.

[Troacctid]

As for lingering song not being viable, it is, because the songs that don't last 5 rounds get extended as well to a couple of rounds, which can mkae a huge difference. And I don't know what kind of rocket tag you play, but I have frequently ventured past the 5 round mark. But that might be just my group.

Lingering Song only works on inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics, AKA the ones that last 5 rounds after you stop singing; other songs are unaffected. Anyway, I don't see why you'd need to stop singing in the first place, since Melodic Casting lets you cast while singing--you can just keep it going for the whole encounter anyway, even if it goes longer than 6 rounds.

Combats aren't going to last that long if you're using optimized Dragonfire Inspiration. Most encounters can't handle that many rounds of Xd6 fire damage per attack, especially if you add in "normal" inspire courage and a casting of haste.

[Socratov]

if the combat takes 5 rounds you are going to lose the first effect you put up. the round after (if you stopped it's singing on teh 2nd turn) the other effect. if you kept one effect going.

Now that I look through my index, I have found a feat that lets you use 2 performances together: Focused Performance (pre req of focused performer, Dragon 338) from Dragon 338. (which grants the option to pause and pick up later and other abilities, and even double if you only target a single person for your buffs. Read all about it in dragon 338.

[AvatarVecna]

-sidenote- what is the bard 4 early entry trick into war weaver?

Versatile Spellcaster lets you use two spells of level N to cast a spell of level N+1. Now all you need is the ability to cast spells of that level; Heighten Spell is the usual method for that, although other methods work for other classes (Beguiler and Warmage would probably prefer Arcane Disciple).

[Troacctid]

Talfirian Song (from Races of Faerun) allows you to Heighten your illusion spells by spending bardic music. Assuming that setting-specific, regional, 3.0 feats are allowed in your game, it makes it pretty easy to meet spell level requirements.

Versatile Spellcaster can also work. In either case, you also need Heighten Spell.


if the combat takes 5 rounds you are going to lose the first effect you put up. the round after (if you stopped it's singing on teh 2nd turn) the other effect. if you kept one effect going.

6 rounds, not 5. You don't drop your song until the second round, or even the third round if you use Dragonfire Inspiration -> Haste -> Inspire Courage as your buff routine. That's a long time. You really shouldn't be concerned about it.

[Endarire]

Breaking Down Inspire Courage Handbook Edition (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936.0)

[Jeargroth]

Ok this is what I got so far... please let me know how to optimize this further. I need a character that if separated from his/her party can hold their own for a little while anyway. There is a GM who loves to Split the party for dramatic side events. I want to be able to just as easily defeat solo as a group. Looking at being able to stand up to a Wizard for a while MINUS the rocket tag of post lvl 15 that i see all the time.

Bard 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Cord 1/ Virtuoso 9 This part is set in stone...

Race: Draconic Bloodline so Silverbrow (gains bonus feat and Cold damage for Dragonfire Inspiration) If anybody knows of a race that gets Sonic without eating up a feat let me know and I will sub to that. I know how feat starved this build will be.

So Bard 1-9
1- Dragonfire Inspiration (extra damage)
1-Lingering Song (extra hit and damage for mooks)
1- Melodic Casting (using perform)
1- Song of the Heart
3
6 Words of Creation (doubling effects? Yes please)
9- Snowflake Ward dance
12- Lyric Spell?
15
18


I am lost at this point not having all the books available. I see him Casting a Summon Monster first... Maxing out his numbers so Using a Higher summon to bring in a number of mooks... then Inspiring them with the Dragonbreath (as it will most likely be cold) Then he inspires again next round to add to their attack.

I looked into going with Wild Cohort but its just one Animal (Brown bear) So thought of dropping it less you think it could be workable. I see this bard being able to buff his group but still blast spells while his mooks take the aggro and run interference. (Celestial wolves for trips?)

If someone could give me some help... Bards are obviously not my forte. I am looking at how to make it all work together. Does the Levels of the PRCs affect number of ICs I get per day? or are they locked at 9 when i stop being a Bard?

[Socratov]

well, virtuoso does advance IC, Sublime Chord doesn't.

I'd take the dragon magazine feats I mentioned, which means you can start a beefed up DFi with a less beefed up 'regular' IC in the same round if you have the bardic music numbers. If you have mooks, drop snowflake wardance and lingering song (you got spells anyway to deal with tougher opponents) and take lyrical spell at 9, continuing with the 2 metamagic and taking metamgic song.

[Jiruharudo]

All the important things seem to be covered as far as I can see.

Personally Id like to advise the Trollshape spell from Spell Comp.

Turning into a singing/dancing spellcasting troll helps dissuade people who think your bard is all talk at times.

[Troacctid]

What level are you starting at? Summoning is not really viable until you can go Sublime Chord because due to your slow spell progression, the creatures you're summoning will be underpowered compared to your opponents.

If you are caught alone, you should not try and fight. Instead, cast a teleportation spell like Dimension Door and NOPE on out of there lickety-split. Alternatively, you might be able to talk your way out. Or, send your familiar ahead to scout and skip going off on your own in the first place. Bards are generally good at avoiding unfavorable fights.

I recommend Obtain Familiar as your 3rd level feat and Celestial Familiar as your 9th level feat. Snowflake Wardance is not worth it compared to just using a bow. (There's like a songbow or something in, like, the Magic Item Compendium that lets you use Cha instead of Dex, IIRC...buy one of those and save the feat. Plus unlike Snowflake Wardance you get Cha to damage, so it's even better.)

[Darrin]

Race: Draconic Bloodline so Silverbrow (gains bonus feat and Cold damage for Dragonfire Inspiration)


I'm not sure what you mean by Draconic Bloodline. Yes, Silverbrow Humans have silver dragons as part of their ancestry, but the "bloodline" isn't strong enough to switch your energy type with Dragonfire Inspiration. There's only two ways to switch the energy type: being a half-dragon (not really recommended) or take the Draconic Heritage feat (which requires Sorcerer 1 or Dragontouched). If you're willing to spend the two feats, then Silverbrow Human becomes redundant, unless you want the fluff.

Since you're going Sublime Chord, you can take up to three non-bard levels before ECL 11 and still cast 3rd level spells. So Bard 8/Sorcerer 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9 will work just fine if you want to pick up Draconic Heritage without spending any feats.



1- Song of the Heart


Do you have access to the Music of Creation from the Eberron Campaign Setting? If so, you can swap out some of your bardic abilities for feats. Obviously, you need to keep Inspire Courage, but if you're going at least 8 levels in Bard, you can swap out Suggestion for Song of the Heart.



9- Snowflake Ward dance


Seconding the thumbs-down on Snowflake Wardance. I consider it a trap, as it forces you into a combat style that's short on damage but only gives you an attack bonus. Take Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) before SWD, as it gives you a bonus on both attack and damage. Also, you can "nova" your spell slots for an alpha strike that stacks up Xd4 damage for each spell level you dump into it. However, even with Arcane Strike, you should probably stay away from the front line, as your current build kinda has "Squishy REMF" written all over it. Arm yourself with an Elvencraft composite longbow (+300 GP, Races of the Wild), which counts as a quarterstaff, so you can grip it two-handed for melee if you find yourself up to the ipshay in the ooppay.



Does the Levels of the PRCs affect number of ICs I get per day? or are they locked at 9 when i stop being a Bard?

Most PrCs don't advance Inspire Courage, but Virtuoso explicitly does. With 8-9 Bard levels and 10 Virtuoso levels, you'll have at least IC +3 as a base, and once you get a Vest of Legends, that'll go up to +4, same as a Bard 20.

[Hiro Quester]

I played a bard like this. I made a lot of use of lingering song in battles, esp. at higher levels, that often lasted longer than 5 rounds.

Learn the spell Harmonize (RoS). It lasts 10 minutes/level (a candidate for a custom magic item that has a continuous effect), and enables you to cast spells while singing. It synergies with melodic casting well.

With harmonize active you can sing DFI and cast haste in the first round, then sing IC and cast another spell second round, then sing IG and cast yet another spell third round.

I strongly recommend Doomspeak feat as possibly the best single-target debuff in the game. Bardic music that makes target -10 on all saving throws, attack rolls and skill checks until your next turn. The DC can get very high, too, since it's 10 + character level + CHA bonus.

With Harmonize that means they can be vulnerable to the spell you cast in the same round, as well as to any other spells your party's other casters throw at them. This can totally nerf really powerful enemies (our party baleful polymorphed an ancient red dragon into a small lizard with a combination of Doomspeak and our wizard pumping up his caster level with Suffer the Flesh).

I also strongly recommend sublime chord 2, for the song of arcane fire. The +4 to CL is very useful for the single spell you really need to work.

[Jeargroth]

Starting round lvl 10 for this one.

So drop Snowflake ward dance... got it...

Looking explicitly to use my IC and dragonfire (Noted read the description wrong... fire is fine with me) to turn my mooks into dangerous threats.

[Jeargroth]

Ok got to lvl 6 figured out... what feats were the ones that allowed for Bardic knowledge? worth it or go for Meta magics now?




Bard 1
Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Inspire Courage +1, (Drop Fascinate for Focused Performer?)
1 Dragonfire Inspiration
2 Lingering Song
3 Obtain Familiar
4 Wild Cohort


Bard 3
Drop Inspire Competence for ??? (melodic casting)
Improved Familiar?

Bard 6


Drop Suggestion for ??? Words of Creation
6 Focused Performance

[animewatcha]

dragonfire inspiration requires inspire competance. Bardic knowledge is a class feature that can be trained for the alternate class feature of things like Bardic knack ( the skill point thing earlier in the thread ). Fascinate class feature for healing hymn class feature. Words of Creation requires Exalted ( More good than even a paladin ).

[Troacctid]

You need to wait until level 3 to take Obtain Familiar because of the caster level requirement. You should then take Celestial Familiar for a Coure Eladrin at 6 or 9, since it's better than Improved Familiar, assuming you're CG. (If you're LG or NG, then Planar Familiar for a Lantern Archon is better.)


dragonfire inspiration requires inspire competance.
No, it doesn't?

[animewatcha]

*looks back and facepalms immensely*

I meant Song of the Heart requires inspire competance.

[Hiro Quester]

*looks back at previous post and facepalms*

I meant that the spell Harmonize enables you to begin bardic music as a move action.

That's what synergies with melodic casting and enables you to begin singing inspire courage and cast haste in the same turn.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

For action economy, there's always Ruby Rhod (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?301445-Ruby-Rhod-Divine-Impetus-plus-IC-optimization). That allows you to get both DFI and regular inspire courage up, and cast haste as well.

[nedz]

But wait, there is more, if you have casters in your party, they will love you if you would play Song of Arcane power as a Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8.

This build is very iffy from a RAW PoV since Bard and Sublime Chord have different spell progressions and Virtuoso 2 requires that you pick one of them; unless you wanted to keep progressing the Bard spells of course.

[Hiro Quester]

This build is very iffy from a RAW PoV since Bard and Sublime Chord have different spell progressions and Virtuoso 2 requires that you pick one of them; unless you wanted to keep progressing the Bard spells of course.

It's pretty standard. Virtuoso 2 progresses Bard, virtuoso 3 progresses SC.


If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Each level, you choose which to advance. Which of course is SC each level, after you have taken SC.


Edit: However, it's important to note that the SC2 song of arcane power only boosts CL for your own next spell. It's still worth it, as a trade for one less level of music progression.

A better option for helping out all the casters in your party is the Doomspeak feat, that lowers a target's saving throws (and attacks and skill checks) by 10 until your next turn. That's one of the best debuffs in the game.

[Keld Denar]

Arcane Power is great for long duration buffs. I used it to great effect in a game for Greater Magic Weapon (chained) as well as creating awesome Phantom Steeds with flight before they were possible otherwise. I mean, its decent in the moment if you have the time to use it, but it really shines in long duration buffs, of which the Bard gets a few and the Sublime Chord gets a lot.