PDA

View Full Version : Dragonlance Cancelled



Tharr
2007-04-24, 03:36 AM
The news is at www.dragonlance.com (http://www.dragonlance.com) for the new info.

squishycube
2007-04-24, 03:41 AM
Boop, to speak with Erfworld...

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 03:45 AM
Meh. Dragonlance was, well, lame.

Zincorium
2007-04-24, 03:56 AM
Honestly, the only Dragonlance product I have actually had some enjoyment with after being conned into playing it was the 5th age card-based game, and only through a combination of unique mechanics and being 13 years old.

Arlanthe
2007-04-24, 04:02 AM
Still, this is sad. The death of an era. Until, you know, they re-release everything in 2012.

Khoran
2007-04-24, 04:08 AM
The Dragonlance RPG License has been a labor of love for me and my staff throughout the term of our agreement with Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro. Our goal in creating Dragonlance game product has always been to give the long-time fan quality material that supports our vision for Dragonlance while attracting a new audience to this epic world. Our agreement has come to term and is not being renewed. We will be releasing new Dragonlance RPG product through the end of this year and then will step back from our association with Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro.
Source (http://www.dragonlance.com/features/articles/10040.aspx)

From what was posted in this artical, it sounds as if Soverign Press is allowing the licence to expire, and that it's not a discision on the part of the WoTC. I have a feeling that a lot of the people saying it was WoTC is a kneejerk reaction (Combined with some bitterness over the Dragon and Dungeon fiasco a few days ago.) that they rule out the consideration that it's Soverign's doing, and that it must be the Evil Wizard and their lust for money.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-24, 04:51 AM
Considering recent events and the fact that this is not the first D&D license not to be renewed, I find it unlikely that this is not a result of WotC's business strategy.

But who knows, maybe we will see DL products again in some years.
This is not the first time DL gets discontinued.

Overlard
2007-04-24, 05:23 AM
One of the players in my group bought/found all the Dragonlance stuff he could get his hands on before he joined us. He thought it was the default setting for D&D, and has been trying to get someone to run a campaign there for almost a year. Poor guy's outta luck.

TerraNova
2007-04-24, 05:26 AM
Considering recent events and the fact that this is not the first D&D license not to be renewed, I find it unlikely that this is not a result of WotC's business strategy.

But who knows, maybe we will see DL products again in some years.
This is not the first time DL get discontinued.

I for one definitly believe we will - as part of a non-OGL 4th edition, which seems more likely by the day.

Well, so much for that money-sink. I'll stick to my guns, and continue playing 3.5 for as long as i have players - i invested way too much money into it to switch.

Zincorium
2007-04-24, 05:32 AM
Well, there are a few good things about a game becoming unsupported:

No power creep.

A lot less money spent on new, shiny, system specific fluff books

Everyone has plenty of time to learn the current rule set.

Really, the only disadvantages are that it will never get officially published new material (the amount of fan made stuff will always be larger than the amount you need) and that replacing old, worn books will get difficult because they'll no longer be printed.

Heck, people still play 2nd ed, old WoD, Alternity, and a bunch of other 'dead' games, without a real problem.

Khoran
2007-04-24, 05:44 AM
Considering recent events and the fact that this is not the first D&D license not to be renewed, I find it unlikely that this is not a result of WotC's business strategy.
Can you point me in the direction of the other Licenses not being renewed aside from Dragon and Dungeon, please.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-24, 06:01 AM
Arthaus' license to Ravenloft - 2005-2006.
Codemonkey Publishing's license to E-tools and PC-Gen - 2006.

KIDS
2007-04-24, 06:31 AM
Awwww, that sucks. As if a significant difference ever existed or what, there was no reason to shut this down!

Khoran
2007-04-24, 06:59 AM
Arthaus' license to Ravenloft - 2005-2006.
Codemonkey Publishing's license to E-tools and PC-Gen - 2006.

I see, so it seems they are letting all licences expire. Though, that does bring up an interesting question of why they are letting that happen.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-24, 07:08 AM
Yeah. Are they just "going into hibernation," or are they about to release one of the other Settings they have up their sleeves?

I never really liked Dragonlance, but I too am slightly alarmed by the trend.

Epiphanis
2007-04-24, 08:01 AM
WotC might want to reduce/weaken the number of settings competing with Eberron and Forgotten Realms, but I doubt it. I think they've just valued the property higher than anyone wants to pay for it anymore. Maybe in a few years they will push Dragonlance novels again and hope to find a licenser who can meet their price then.

Meat Shield
2007-04-24, 08:49 AM
Yeah. Are they just "going into hibernation," or are they about to release one of the other Settings they have up their sleeves?
I think you may be on to something here - we may see another setting in time for Christmas maybe?

clarkvalentine
2007-04-24, 08:52 AM
From what was posted in this artical, it sounds as if Soverign Press is allowing the licence to expire, and that it's not a discision on the part of the WoTC.

No, it was almost certainly WoTC. It's obvious if you look at surrounding events. For reasons stated earlier in the thread, it's not a big surprise, though.


Edit: By the way, all the books scheduled for release this year will still be released. They didn't truly cancel it, they just didn't renew the license for 2008.

- Clark

clarkvalentine
2007-04-24, 08:53 AM
Poor guy's outta luck.


Send him this way, I was just talking yesterday about starting up a new campaign. :smallwink: My books aren't evaporating.

clarkvalentine
2007-04-24, 08:55 AM
But who knows, maybe we will see DL products again in some years.
This is not the first time DL gets discontinued.


I think that's a very strong probability. They tend to let DL go fallow for a years every once in a while. It'll be back, maybe coinciding with Edition 4.5 like it did with 3.5.

Indon
2007-04-24, 09:03 AM
Yeah. Are they just "going into hibernation," or are they about to release one of the other Settings they have up their sleeves?

I never really liked Dragonlance, but I too am slightly alarmed by the trend.

I suspect they're trying to set up some kind of cycle, in which during any given year they've got a couple different settings being active. That way, they can keep gamers running around for the newest setting suppliments all the time.

EvilElitest
2007-04-24, 01:39 PM
so who is very upset?
from,
EE

Wagadodo
2007-04-24, 02:12 PM
I hate to see one of my favorite settings just disappear like this. I have supported Sovereign Press's releases from the begining and have found they have some of the best fluff, and interesting mechanical stuff out there. I for one will be sad to see Dragonlance product leave their hands.

Lets just hope their Serenity, Battlestar Galatica, and other rpg products are just as good.

Marcotic
2007-04-24, 02:16 PM
Meh. Dragonlance was, well, lame.

Probably the only thing that I agree with you on. Any champain with the silvenesti, I mean seriously supporting racism oh im' sorry Zenophobia, and what's with the knights of salancia?(if i got that right) if I remember, there pretty much palidin/fighters and what would you know? only humans can do that. In Dragonlances defence, i had a bit of a lame DM, or maybe he was overloaded.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-24, 02:17 PM
WotC might want to reduce/weaken the number of settings competing with Eberron and Forgotten Realms, but I doubt it.
Or, you know, they just want to take control of the official settings again. Did ya notice how after the Ravenloft liscense expired, an official WotC Ravonloft product came out?

themightybiggun
2007-04-24, 02:20 PM
I'm bummed, DL was my favorite setting.

A lot of people got turned off of it during the 5th age crisis, but in the past 4-5 years its had a resurgence, I'm rather sad.:smallfrown:

I liked it out from under the WotC license, MWP/SP was definitely run by fans, and they kept it very true to the way the fans loved it.

If WotC starts publishing stuff ( i don't think they will,) I probably won't buy any.

Assassinfox
2007-04-24, 03:01 PM
Or, you know, they just want to take control of the official settings again. Did ya notice how after the Ravenloft liscense expired, an official WotC Ravonloft product came out?

A crappy remake of the original adventure that completely ignores the actual Ravenloft setting.

JadedDM
2007-04-24, 05:18 PM
Probably the only thing that I agree with you on. Any champain with the silvenesti, I mean seriously supporting racism oh im' sorry Zenophobia, and what's with the knights of salancia?(if i got that right) if I remember, there pretty much palidin/fighters and what would you know? only humans can do that. In Dragonlances defence, i had a bit of a lame DM, or maybe he was overloaded.

They are the Knights of Solamnia. I can't really address the rest of your post, as it is indecipherable to me.

Dragonlance was my favorite campaign setting. I can't believe they're doing this. First Paizo, and now this? Something is in the works here, and I have a bad feeling about it. WotC has been suspiciously tight-lipped about the whole thing, too. I guess we'll see what happens whenever they make their next move.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas

Assassinfox
2007-04-24, 05:22 PM
I'd have to agree with Marcotic. Dragonlance had some seriously screwed up morals.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-24, 05:41 PM
I for one definitly believe we will - as part of a non-OGL 4th edition, which seems more likely by the day.

Well, so much for that money-sink. I'll stick to my guns, and continue playing 3.5 for as long as i have players - i invested way too much money into it to switch.

Invest money in D&D books? D&D isn't good enough to pay money for.

Unlike SR 4 and M&M 2.

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-24, 06:04 PM
I'd have to agree with Marcotic. Dragonlance had some seriously screwed up morals.

People keep talking about Dragonlance and it's screwed up morals. I'm trying to figure out what, exactly, the problem is.

The Elves were extremely xenophobic and racist. Unbelievable? Hardly.

The Knights of Solamnia distrust magic intensely and do not allow non-humans into their order. Unbelievable? Again, hardly.

Dragonlance is a much grittier setting than, say, Forgotten Realms. I, for one, think the way the different races interact is quite believable and suits the setting immensely. It's a shame that it's being discontinued, I always wanted to play a Dragonlance game. I loved the books as a child and am currently rereading the Annotated Chronicles.

JadedDM
2007-04-24, 06:07 PM
Yeah, how were DL's morals messed up? I don't understand that statement at all.

Assassinfox
2007-04-24, 06:08 PM
People keep talking about Dragonlance and it's screwed up morals. I'm trying to figure out what, exactly, the problem is.

Good and Evil are political parties, not moral alignments. The elves are a bunch of racist jerks, but they're Good, cuz they endorse Paladine. Knights of Neraka/Takhsis are sometimes respectable, honorable, and occasionally have people's well-being in mind. But, they're automatically Evil, cuz they support Takhsis.

Name_Here
2007-04-24, 07:14 PM
Good and Evil are political parties, not moral alignments. The elves are a bunch of racist jerks, but they're Good, cuz they endorse Paladine. Knights of Neraka/Takhsis are sometimes respectable, honorable, and occasionally have people's well-being in mind. But, they're automatically Evil, cuz they support Takhsis.
Yeah the Elves are ***** who hate humans and other elves but find me an instance of them using torture and slavery. Cause I can find multiple examples of Knights of Takhsis using slaves and torture throughout Dragons of Summer Flame.
The Knights of Takhsis aren't evil because they are respectful and honorable, that's why they are lawful. However they are unquestionably evil. Harsh sentances for even petty crime, restriction on liberties and the way they tend to round up people who oppose their way of doing things all done without a trial.

JadedDM
2007-04-24, 07:24 PM
Wait, so when someone says that DL's morality is messed up, what they mean is that it's not perfectly black and white?

The Elves don't hate humans. They think they're better than them, yeah. And they blamed humanity for the Cataclysm, but it's not like they went around murdering them or anything.

The KoT are Lawful Evil. Or at least they were in their hay-day. When Fifth Age came around, I think many started ignoring that whole 'code of honor' thing.

Hallavast
2007-04-24, 07:49 PM
Since when has morality or moral values had any impact on how to evaluate poetry or art? Dragonlance was poetry in motion.

If you don't like racism in your games, then I'd suggest ignoring chapter 2 in the player's handbook altogether.

Assassinfox
2007-04-24, 07:57 PM
Since when has morality or moral values had any impact on how to evaluate poetry or art? Dragonlance was poetry in motion.

If you don't like racism in your games, then I'd suggest ignoring chapter 2 in the player's handbook altogether.

I don't like amorality in my games. As I've already stated, Dragonlance treats Good and Evil as affiliations instead of actual moral outlooks.

storybookknight
2007-04-24, 08:28 PM
WOOHOO! DRAGONLANCE DIES!

I've hated that setting for approximately forever. Glad to see it go!

Hallavast
2007-04-24, 08:45 PM
I don't like amorality in my games. As I've already stated, Dragonlance treats Good and Evil as affiliations instead of actual moral outlooks.

Ok. There is a certain disconnect that can be misleading considering elves. Elves were the creation of Paladine. Most Elves worship him (or pay lip service to give the appearance of abiding by the social norms of Elven society). This doesn't mean all elves are "good". It means Elven society mandates reverance (or the appearance of reverence) to the gods of good. A great many elves are biggoted, arogant jerks. This doesn't mean they are good. In fact, I'd say most elves like this are NOT good. Paladine (when he was still a god) didn't honor any mislead worship or lipservice from any race. He honored genuine worship from genuinely good people regardless of race. The Irony here is deliberate on the part of the writers.

It's similar to Eberron's church of the silver flame being involved in many corrupt scenarios.

Matthew
2007-04-24, 08:50 PM
Considering recent events and the fact that this is not the first D&D license not to be renewed, I find it unlikely that this is not a result of WotC's business strategy.

But who knows, maybe we will see DL products again in some years.
This is not the first time DL gets discontinued.

I for one definitly believe we will - as part of a non-OGL 4th edition, which seems more likely by the day.

Well, so much for that money-sink. I'll stick to my guns, and continue playing 3.5 for as long as i have players - i invested way too much money into it to switch.

Or, you know, they just want to take control of the official settings again. Did ya notice how after the Ravenloft liscense expired, an official WotC Ravonloft product came out?

They are the Knights of Solamnia. I can't really address the rest of your post, as it is indecipherable to me.

Dragonlance was my favorite campaign setting. I can't believe they're doing this. First Paizo, and now this? Something is in the works here, and I have a bad feeling about it. WotC has been suspiciously tight-lipped about the whole thing, too. I guess we'll see what happens whenever they make their next move.

Est Sularus Oth Mithas

WOOHOO! DRAGONLANCE DIES!

I've hated that setting for approximately forever. Glad to see it go!
I have to agree with Silvanos and Shhalahr here. Very doubtful that this portends the end of Dragonlance, especially when there is an upcoming film scheduled for release sometime this year or next. Just look at Wizards product releases for this year and compare them to the last four years. Notice anything different? Maybe the huge slew of Adventures they have released this year compared to virtually nothing in the last few? Everything is coming back 'in house' to make the most of the system before 4.0 gets released. Virtually the same thing happened with (A)D&D (though I hesitate to compare it, as the financial situation was very different). They reissued all the Core Books with a nifty new system (Player's Option - Tome of Battle), then produced a slew of adventures to be supported by the existing mechanics (not the new stuff).
Over the next year to three years I think we will see a greater emphasis on Adventures and Setting type stuff before 4.0 is finally released, with claims of 3.x is too cumbersome, weighed down by too many Feats, blah, blah, blah, come and play our new streamlined version of D&D, it totally kicks 3.x's ass.

EvilElitest
2007-04-24, 08:53 PM
Invest money in D&D books? D&D isn't good enough to pay money for.

Unlike SR 4 and M&M 2.

carful, some people enjoy it


Good and Evil are political parties, not moral alignments. The elves are a bunch of racist jerks, but they're Good, cuz they endorse Paladine. Knights of Neraka/Takhsis are sometimes respectable, honorable, and occasionally have people's well-being in mind. But, they're automatically Evil, cuz they support Takhsis.
The Silverenstai elves are LN, the Knights are LE

from,
EE

Assassinfox
2007-04-24, 09:00 PM
This doesn't mean they are good. In fact, I'd say most elves like this are NOT good. Paladine (when he was still a god) didn't honor any mislead worship or lipservice from any race. He honored genuine worship from genuinely good people regardless of race. The Irony here is deliberate on the part of the writers.

I guess I should reread the books and give the setting another chance, then. Thanks for your explanation.

themightybiggun
2007-04-24, 09:17 PM
So Margeret Weis (you know, that lady who wrote the series and owns Margeret Weis Productions?) yea, she stated on the fan forums that it was definitely WotC who let the license die, she seemed quite bummed as did all the creative staff at Sovereign Press.

Long Live the Lance!

Hallavast
2007-04-24, 09:45 PM
I guess I should reread the books and give the setting another chance, then. Thanks for your explanation.
OMG! Someone listened to me? Alert the press!

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-24, 09:47 PM
One AP bulletin coming up!

Belteshazzar
2007-04-24, 09:57 PM
Sadly I enjoyed the earlier books of Dragonlance but there were certain characters I simply couldn't stand. It wasn't the Kender it was the freaking half elf Tannis. I loathed Tannis his entire family was a plot blot but I could not stand him. However I loved Lord Toad for some odd reason. My favorite book from the series was the one where Toad simply kept dying and was used as a betting pawn by two deamons The thin Abbot of Pain and the Costellat of... somthing I can't remember right now but the entire book was filled with in-jokes and the final scene where the Abbot and Costellat are being chased into the horizon by some old school deamon ( a demonic steamroller thing with a paragraph long name of glass shattering syllables ) made me laugh out loud in a crowded car. It wasn't till that paragraph that I realized who they were parodying. Toad somehow managed to take all he had been through in stride and still end up on top.
Anyhow I felt that most of the series aside from a few truly bright characters never felt alive to me the way even Drizzt managed to.

Wehrkind
2007-04-24, 10:18 PM
See, it might have been that the old school Dragon Lance was my -in- to AD&D that caused it, but I had a deep and abiding affection for the setting, even before I owned a Players Handbook. I could never quite stomach the changes that happened to the setting after the War of the Lance, with the Dragons of Summer Flame thing. I sort of lost my taste for the setting after that.
But those original characters really meant something to me. I remember crying when Flint and Sturm died. I admit to being a little so so on Tanis, but there was a lot to love in those 3 books, and the setting was really fleshed out in a way that made you feel that you were in a world much older and more important than the characters.

I always thought that a lot of settings lacked much of a past, in that the characters were the only thing that drove the world, and if they blinked out, so would the rest of reality, where as with DL you got the feeling that the Companions were just a small part of what was happening, swept up in a tide that was far greater than them.

That Lord Toade book was excellent. So many of the second string writers were crappy, but that was a rare gem among some really good books.

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-24, 10:44 PM
Another interesting thing about the forces of evil, while the Knights of Takhisis and the Black Robes may be demonstrations of "evil and loving it," there are still variations within it.

In one of the books, LaDonna describes the order of the Black Robes as an order that feels that the pursuit of magic should not be tied down by abstract morality. Evil? In most cases, probably. But not wholly, irredeemably evil. Quite a human evil, actually, setting aside customary values to pursue one's goals.

The Knights of Takhisis prescribe to a fairly typical fascist government, highly conservative "do as we say because we know what's best" type of a thing. Oppressive, yes, but not violently chaotic evil (and really, how many of those kinds of characters are really deep? I've yet to see someone effectively play the traditional "kills everyone 'cause he can" character with any level of depth or originality. Belkar, for example, is much like this. He has great jokes, but he's completely one-dimensional).

And then you have some other organizations, such as the Draconians. I believe it was Kang from Kang's regiment who summed it up best. When confronting a priestess while trying to find a safe place for his regiment, one of the clerics says to him "but we were fighting for the side of good!"

Kang replies "so were we."

I love the Dragonlance setting in no small part because while I don't mind it every now and again, I get VERY tired of irredeemably bad in the "I-kick-puppies-and-eat-babies" kind of way.

I hope the setting gets brought back at some point, perhaps in 4.0 as they say. It's a great setting.

Hmmm... now that it's out of print I wonder if I'll be able to find the books for a low price. I will have to look into that. No point in not taking any kind of advantage of the situation I can.

PnP Fan
2007-04-24, 11:27 PM
Meh. . . I don't know, I was never a fan of the books, I only read the original trilogy because it was considered a "must". I wasn't all that impressed, and I was more or less of the right age to read them. I like several of the original characters, Sturm and Tanis in particular. But not enough to read the rest of the stuff. As far as the campaign setting, about the only thing I liked about it was that it encouraged you to use dragons more often than you might in most other D&D settings.
As far as the economics goes, I'm not so sure. Locally, at least, the DL products hardly sell. A few die hards buy the material, but most of the time it seems to be the exact same books sitting on the shelf at the shop I hang out in. My guess, admittedly from only one data point, is that the cost of maintaining the license wasn't worth the sales revenue from the material. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we see material from WotC in the next year or two though. I'm not sure that anyone locally would really care though.

Foeofthelance
2007-04-25, 12:25 AM
Hmm, a few clarifications, just to strighten a few things out by my reckoning.

1) Yes, the Silvenesti were racist. They were elitist, blamed the humans for the Cataclysm* (which, to a point, they were) and could make just about any real world isolationist nation look down right neighborly. As a result they got messed by a green dragon not once, but twice. The Qualenesti, on the other hand, got along with the humans rather well in terms of elven-human relations, building Pax Tharkas with the humans and dwarves, sheltering a few refugees post Cataclysm, and giving rise to Laurana, her brother, and Tanis. The Kagonesti also got along rather well with people, so much that they were championed by the silver dragon clans. So two out of the three were good, with the third being self centered neutral.

2) Yes, the Knights of Takhisis (prior to becoming the Knights of Neraka in the Fifth Age) did have a strict code of honor. That was because Takhisis realized that she had been beaten in the War of the Lance because the good forces could at least agree that they were better served by cooperation, rather then seeing who was the strongest the way the Dragonarmies did. So she had Ariakan (I think it was him at any rate. Sadly, all my books are currently boxed for moving purposes.) study with the Knights of Solamnia and learn their ways. She then adopted their codes and strictures for her own reborn forces. Ironically, this as around the same time the Knights of Solamnia were beginning to move away from "by the letter" attitude that had seen them through the post Cataclysm years, and towards a "by the spirit" attitude that Sturm had championed. Around this point both sides began to accept magic users in their armies, both divine and arcane. Wizards had taken a large amount of blame for the Cataclysm, so the Knights, who had taken blame for not preventing, sided against them to preserve some image with the public in general. Once the gods had returned they began to accept a few white robes, such as Palin, while the Knights of Takhsis formed the Thorn Knights. The Knights of Solamnia were never racist, but as a national army (Remember, they are the Knights OF Solamnia) they restricted their numbers to humans, as Solamnia was a human nation. That didn't prevent them from honoring members of other races who fought alongside them, including elves, dragons, and most notably the Minotaur Kaz, who fought at Huma's side. They were no more racist then any nation that bans foreign nationals into their military ranks.

3) The Knights of Takhisis were lawful, yes, but they were hardly good. They promoted the slaughter of Kender and Gully Dwarves as public nuisances, ruled with an iron fist, and had no problem treating so called "lower" races, such as Draconians, Goblinoids, and Elves as either cannon fodder or slaves.

Personally, I will miss Krynn. It was a lot more fun to travel the trails that Elminister wasn't watching, even if we did have to worry about annoying Raistlin instead.


*The Cataclysm was the name given to the event that ended the Third Age. Basically the Kingpriest of Istar got a bit uppity and demanded the Gods of Good do his bidding. Since he was ruling a rather corrupt nation (Istar had gotten to the point where if you were neutral, you were evil, all because you weren't good) the Gods of Good objected, and with the agreement of the Gods of Neutrality and Evil, smacked him upside the head with a "Fiery Mountain", resulting in the destruction of his temple, the City of Istar, and general global upheaval. The people then turned away from the gods, redsicovered them 300 years later when the Queen of Evil tried to take over, lost them fifty years later when one of the less well known races accidentally freed the ultimate force of destruction, then discovered about fifty years later that the world had really been stolent by the Queen of Evil, the Dragon Overlords weren't meant to be there, and that everything would be alright because the gods were back, this time hopefully for good. Yay for the entire campaign setting in five minutes!

starwoof
2007-04-25, 12:50 AM
Dragonlance... can't die. Its my favorite setting. It's what got me into DnD originally. The morality is one of the best parts, because its all shades of grey and its intensely the most realistic setting.

I attempt to disbelieve!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-25, 12:56 AM
Dragonlance... intensely the most realistic setting.


Oh, yeah. I just saw a frail, consumptive wizard outside, trying to become a god.

Happens all the freaking time let me tell you.

Wehrkind
2007-04-25, 01:15 AM
Well... comparing the relative "realism" of the various worlds is sort of... we are talking about places designed to be unreal, fantasy, if you will. I think Dragon Lance highlighted the racism and international politics and culture a little better than some, insofar as it reflected more of a medieval society's distrust of the other, as opposed to the hyper tolerant "anything goes" in many other settings.

Snooder
2007-04-25, 01:22 AM
Oh, yeah. I just saw a frail, consumptive wizard outside, trying to become a god.

Happens all the freaking time let me tell you.

Cmon. Think about the smartest guy you knew in high school or college. Not the guy with the best grades mind you, the dude who always broke the curve and always had his nose in a book. Chances are he also happened to be the guy with the asthma, or stutter, or acne, or some other debilitating physical ailment.

The fact is, that sort of thing tends to feed off itself. The guys with the physical problems tend to spend lots of time reading and studying. And of course all that study and reading tends to make them even LESS physically fit.

Raistlin is probably one of the more three dimensional and realistic fantasy characters I've seen. His quest for power is very clearly stated and easily understood psychologically. He's a twin who is constantly in the shadow of his brother and is bullied by all the other kids in town. Then you add in his mother's death and the Test and you have a recipe for a Napoleonic complex of immense proportions.

Man, pretty much all the characters in the original chronicles were well done. Who else would write in a bitter, self-hating half-elf as the party leader? And have his love interest be one of the main villains?

And oh God, Kender. Kender alone make DragonLance worthwhile.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-25, 01:26 AM
Raistlin isn't three-dimensional. He wants power and is bitter, but secretly sort of cares for his brother deep down inside. Liek wow!!1

You want a three-dimensional villain, look up Gerald Tarrant.

Wehrkind
2007-04-25, 01:37 AM
I think the main lure of Raistlin (other than the fact he has all the consonants given to you in Wheel of Fortune's bonus round, in order, and none of the vowels) is that everyone sees a little of themselves in him, to a greater or lesser extent. Most people have felt like they are in the shadow of a sibling or something similar, most people feel like they are outcast for being different at some point. Most people also firmly believe that they would be better if it wasn't for some external other holding them back.

He is the evil inside all of us, that weakness so many succumb to. That he overcomes and becomes powerful is fairly appealing. I don't know that I would call him well rounded, but he is a two dimensional shard that most everyone can relate to.

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-25, 01:54 AM
Raistlin is actually fairly three-dimensional, he's got quite a bit going on in his head at any given time. He's not necessarily what we'd consider "original", but a) nothing's original in this day and age and b) Raistlin created and accentuated many stereotypical characters, so he gets bonus points for being one of the more original originals.

stainboy
2007-04-25, 06:32 AM
I have to admit I've never been a huge fan of Dragonlance. Well, ok, when I was twelve, but not since then.

The setting has its unique elements, but nothing in it ever jumped out at me as particularly rich or inventive. I've never seen anything that made me want to play Dragonlance over any other stock fantasy setting. It seems like a very limited world, where no matter what you do you're always going to be playing on the periphery of a huge line of novels. I think a lot of new players who never read the novels (which are what, 15-20 years old now?) will have the same reaction, and that's what WotC's trying to avoid.

Dragonlance has its fan base, who already know everything they'd ever need to know to run a Dragonlance game and can work out in their head that X elven subspecies gets +2 int instead of +2 dex (or whatever). Dragonlance is close enough to RAW D&D that running it off a 2e sourcebook and a 3.5 PHB isn't really a problem. What WotC wants is setting that will draw in new players and break some new ground to keep longtime players interested, and I don't see Dragonlance delivering that.

To you diehard Dragonlance fans, yeah, it sucks. But really, do you need a shiny new sourcebook to use the 3.5 ruleset? You don't, WotC knows it, and that's why they're going to try to sell you something new instead.

doliemaster
2007-04-25, 07:10 AM
Wait I'm not following is the books cancelled, the gaming stuff, or both?

Matthew
2007-04-25, 07:27 AM
Books aren't, according to Wizards Admin Mods. All that is happened is that the Licence has been reclaimed by Wizards, which means Weis and company cannot produce any more Dragonlance stuff. However, the Licence is not due to expire yet, so projects 'in the works' are set to go through.

clarkvalentine
2007-04-25, 08:29 AM
Books aren't, according to Wizards Admin Mods. All that is happened is that the Licence has been reclaimed by Wizards, which means Weis and company cannot produce any more Dragonlance stuff. However, the Licence is not due to expire yet, so projects 'in the works' are set to go through.


Right - RPG sourcebooks like Races of Ansalon and Dragons of Krynn, the Map Pouch products in production, and the remaining two classic Dragons of Winter/Spring will still be released. The novel line is unaffected; this is just the license to create RPGs.

I'm disappointed, but hardly surprised. MWP did a good job exploring most aspects of the setting. And my books aren't evaporating, so I'll still play Dragonlance (along with the other RPGs in my library).

Edit: The "Woohoo! I personally hate DL, so this is good!" posts seem needlessly combative and knife-twisting. No, the setting isn't everyone's cup of tea. That's OK, not everyone needs to love every setting. I'm not a fan of Exalted or WoD, but because a lot of people do I'd still be disappointed to see them go.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-25, 08:43 AM
Edit: The "Woohoo! I personally hate DL, so this is good!" posts seem needlessly combative and knife-twisting. No, the setting isn't everyone's cup of tea. That's OK, not everyone needs to love every setting. I'm not a fan of Exalted or WoD, but because a lot of people do I'd still be disappointed to see them go.
I'm glad someone else thinks this way.

Argent
2007-04-25, 09:02 AM
It's sad to see this being the end to a franchise that used to be really innovative and interesting. When Dragonlance was first introduced, I really enjoyed it. Great setting, neat core characters, good writing (as novels-based-on-game-settings go). But any good franchise, drawn out too long, gets stale, and DL was no exception. So I'm glad they're putting an end to it -- I'd like to see creative efforts put towards a newer, fresher project.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-04-25, 11:12 AM
Well, I would have to lament the end of the latest Dragonlance setting material. I remember reading the first trilogy at its first release, back when the books where just $2.99 new off the shelf. The setting was new to me back then, and remained my favorite over Forgotten Realms for a long, long time. I much preferred the setting and the fiction.

And I agree with what's said earlier. Just because you don't care for something, it doesn't mean you need celebrate its demise. I've never cared for Rifts, for example, but I understand some people are fans and I never celebrated its recent troubles. I just didn't buy anything for it. I am not certain why there's this sentiment nowadays that seems to imply that if one doesn't care for something, then no one should have anything to do with it.

doliemaster
2007-04-28, 10:40 PM
I loved playing in dragonlance and am still going to use it, since it gives some decent things that aren't stale in my opinoin, like gully dwarfs, my favorite race:smallbiggrin: just like Bupu was my favorite character, Tasslehoff my second, and Raistalin my third. I am happy to see the novels unaffected, cause if wizards took those away, well it would be worse than what Youtube is doing to Yugioh the abridged series.

EvilElitest
2007-04-29, 11:16 AM
Raistlin isn't three-dimensional. He wants power and is bitter, but secretly sort of cares for his brother deep down inside. Liek wow!!1

You want a three-dimensional villain, look up Gerald Tarrant.

He doesn't care about his brother, he leaves him to die in the end, it is only when he realizes that his plan is going to fail ether way that he lets his brother out in a "Better one escape rather than none" idea, not out of personal love, he takes advantage of his brother in very cruel ways
from,
EE