Maximizing Saves and BAB in Gestalt

[SinsI]

If you start with a Wizard 1 // Psychic Warrior 1, and afterward progress as Wizard/Psion (both Poor BAB classes), since they get the BAB increase on different levels, would it make the resulting character a full BAB, without actually getting any levels in full BAB except the first?

It is also frequently suggested to have something like a Monk or Totemist as the second part of a Gestalt. But since 1st levels in a class receive much higher Saves increase, wouldn't it be better to use 10-20 different classes as the basis instead?

Is it possible to make a full tier 1 caster on one side with 20 BAB and 40/40/40 in basic saves?

[ryu]

Even if you can't do exactly that, and you very well may, would you count it the same if you could do effectively that? If for example you made the other half warblade and made use of save replacing maneuvers which are actually superior to just standard saves? On top of that free actions, and an entire pile of weapon, and armor features before even really thinking too much about things?

[Uncle Pine]

Psychic Warrior isn't full BAB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) Also, I thought I read somewhere that gestalt characters were assumed to use fractional BAB and saves, but I could be wrong.

[Rebel7284]

Based on the following:



Base Attack Bonus
Choose the better progression from the two classes.


Progression of BAB for a wizard/psion is 1/2. Therefore, it would not grant full BAB.

As for your other question, class features tend to be much more important than a few extra points of saves. With that said, depending on the character in question, you can indeed end up with 10+ classes between several PrCs and lots of dipping.

Note that frequently getting Stat to saves is most effective.

[SinsI]

Progression of BAB for a wizard/psion is 1/2.
You are probably correct since it is similar to rogue's sneak attack progression.


Even if you can't do exactly that, and you very well may, would you count it the same if you could do effectively that? If for example you made the other half warblade and made use of save replacing maneuvers which are actually superior to just standard saves? On top of that free actions, and an entire pile of weapon, and armor features before even really thinking too much about things?
I want basic saves to be in the stratosphere. Nothing stops one from piling all the rest of the bonuses (from class features) on top of that.

[Necroticplague]

If you start with a Wizard 1 // Psychic Warrior 1, and afterward progress as Wizard/Psion (both Poor BAB classes), since they get the BAB increase on different levels, would it make the resulting character a full BAB, without actually getting any levels in full BAB except the first? No, this is a common fallacy. What you do for both saves and BaB is basically split up your build into its two different 'sides', calculate the BaB/saves for each 'side' individually, then your character simply uses the higher of the two.


It is also frequently suggested to have something like a Monk or Totemist as the second part of a Gestalt. But since 1st levels in a class receive much higher Saves increase, wouldn't it be better to use 10-20 different classes as the basis instead?

Those things are recomended for gestalt because the vast majority of their class features are rather passive, meaning that they augment whatever you do without having to compete for actions. It has nothing to do with Saves. Numbers don't win encounters, useful abilities do.

[Chronos]

Well, I wouldn't say that it has nothing to do with saves. It's important to keep up with expectations on saves, after all, and since most gestalt characters will naturally end up with either two or three good saves, encounters for gestalt characters are usually built on the assumption of good saves.


Is it possible to make a full tier 1 caster on one side with 20 BAB and 40/40/40 in basic saves?
Almost certainly not, though you could probably get pretty close. Getting 40/40/40 would require that each level, you either take a new class with all good saves, or you take two new classes with complementary good saves. If you want to be a full caster, one side is going to be occupied entirely with a casting class and prestige classes that progress it, which means that you'll only have one level with a new class on that side until you can start qualifying for prestige classes. That means the rest of your pre-PrC levels will have to have a new all-good-saves class on the other side, and I think the only base class with all good saves is the monk (which also doesn't have full BAB).

[SinsI]

Those things are recomended for gestalt because the vast majority of their class features are rather passive, meaning that they augment whatever you do without having to compete for actions. It has nothing to do with Saves. Numbers don't win encounters, useful abilities do.
Immunity to all enemy Save-Or-Die and Save-Or-Lose effects is a pretty useful ability.
Plus, that very feature that doesn't allow to stack poor BAB or double Sneak Attack also means that first levels are actually better than they originally are: If you stack 1st levels in two classes that have something like Evasion as 2nd level ability you'll get Evasion even though neither of the levels taken mention it as 1st level ability.

BTW, how do you stack Spellcasting for non-full casting PRCs?
I.e. 6th level has one side Acolyte of the Skin and the other a basic caster. Would 7th level in Acolyth of the Skin on one side progress casting according to AotS 2nd level (so +1 to existing caster) or 1st level (+0.5 existing caster so no progression)? What about classes with irregular missed caster levels, i.e. Elemental Savant?

[Chronos]

I think the simplest solution to that is to pick a "path" through your levels (i.e., at each level, pick one of the two classes), and then compute your casting as though you were a standard character with that build.

[SinsI]

I think the simplest solution to that is to pick a "path" through your levels (i.e., at each level, pick one of the two classes), and then compute your casting as though you were a standard character with that build.

In other words, you are for variant 2 (so 2nd level in PRC only caster would give you no caster level increase).

I don't like it since if a PRC loses one of the later caster levels you can easily compensate for it by taking a basic caster at the same level (and all later ones) on the other side, but if it loses 1st one you have to keep gestalting it with basic caster all the way.

[Xerlith]

There are no "sides" in Gestalt. It's only a simplified representation of how the build looks on paper.

Also, I have no idea what you meant above. Could you elaborate? I think you're going for a fallacious train of thought, but can't figure out what you mean.

Example of what you (i think) mean:
A Swiftblade loses 4 caster levels, so a Sorcerer6/Swiftblade10//Warblade6/Sorcerer1/Warblade+2/Sorcerer+1/Warblade+2/Sorcerer+1/Warblade+2/Sorcerer+1 would cast as a Sorcerer 16, with a full Caster Level and 8th level spells, full BAB and 14th Initiator Level.

[SinsI]

There are no "sides" in Gestalt. It's only a simplified representation of how the build looks on paper.

Also, I have no idea what you meant above. Could you elaborate? I think you're going for a fallacious train of thought, but can't figure out what you mean.

Example of what you (i think) mean:
A Swiftblade loses 4 caster levels, so a Sorcerer6/Swiftblade10//Warblade6/Sorcerer1/Warblade+2/Sorcerer+1/Warblade+2/Sorcerer+1/Warblade+2/Sorcerer+1 would cast as a Sorcerer 16, with a full Caster Level and 8th level spells, full BAB and 14th Initiator Level.

Chronos meant that at each level you select "the better" progression of the feature (in this case Spellcasting advancement, just like Sneak Attack for Rogue and Assassin, similar to my example above about combining two Poor Bab classes) and look at total advancement for the classes you selected to determine the combined advancement.
For example:
Fighter 6/ Rogue 5 // Totemist 7 / Assassin 4 would have a total of 5 levels of "1/2 Sneak Attack advancement" no matter what levels (rogue or Assassin) you select. - so you only receive a sneak attack of +3d6, not +5d6.
If there was a class that gave +1d6 Sneak Attack advancement every level ("FullSneak"), and you took a level of it at the same time Rogue has an "empty" Sneak Attack level, it won't give you +1d6 at every level, you would still receive only (FullSneak Levels + (Rogue levels - FullSneak Levels +1)/2) of extra Sneak Attack Dice.

In your example for spellcasting with this approach you would select 6 levels of sorcerer first (from the left side), followed by one level of Sorcerer from the right side, followed by 2 levels of Swiftblade on the left side, etc.
In total, you would have a casting of Sorcerer 10 and Swiftblade 6, losing 2 caster levels and only having access to 7th level spells.

[Xerlith]

In your example for spellcasting with this approach you would select 6 levels of sorcerer first (from the left side), followed by one level of Sorcerer from the right side, followed by 2 levels of Swiftblade on the left side, etc.
In total, you would have a casting of Sorcerer 10 and Swiftblade 6, losing 2 caster levels and only having access to 7th level spells.

That is completely untrue and I have no idea how you got this from what was said. You compare the RELEVANT LEVELS, that is those you're taking at the character level of the class and compare the progressions ON EACH LEVEL SEPARATELY.

Meaning you compare the 7th sorcerer level to 1st Swiftblade level, then 7th Warblade level to the 2nd Swiftblade level and so on.

Finally, as I said, there are no sides.

The build might very well look Sorcerer7/Swiftblade+2/Sorcerer1/Swiftblade+2/Sorcerer1/Swiftblade+2/Sorcerer+1//Warblade6/Swiftblade1/Warblade+2/Swiftblade+1/Warblade+2/Swiftblade+1/Warblade+2/Swiftblade+1 and it would give the same exact result, that is Full-Casting left side, because I progress Sorcerer casting on every Character level, and full BAB right side, because all the levels are full-BAB there. Get it? It's level-by-level, not class-by-class.

[martixy]

It all depends on if you use Fractional BAB/Saves or the regular system.

Fractional is both more balanced, and can result in a more sensible progression AND in some cases better progression than the usual.

With the regular system you're playing "Align the blocks" basically - and you could get full BAB with 2 caster classes, you'd just need to alternate the levels. Also... aligning the saves like that quickly gets out of hand where you fail only on a nat 1.
And if you're going for THAT goal you might as well just make Pun-Pun or something.

[SinsI]

That is completely untrue and I have no idea how you got this from what was said. You compare the RELEVANT LEVELS, that is those you're taking at the character level of the class and compare the progressions ON EACH LEVEL SEPARATELY.

Meaning you compare the 7th sorcerer level to 1st Swiftblade level, then 7th Warblade level to the 2nd Swiftblade level and so on.

If you compare "relevant levels" for spellcasting, why do you not do the same for Sneak Attack and for BAB?

2nd level Wizard has +1 BAB, and 1st level Psion has a +0 BAB, 3rd level Wizard has +0 BAB and 2nd level Psion has +1 BAB - so that way you have +1 BAB every level, from two poor BAB classes.

Same thing with Sneak Attack - Rogue 1st level has +1d6 Sneak Attack, Rogue 2nd level has none but Assassin 1st has +1d6 Sneak Attack, etc.
So that way 5 levels of Rogue and 4 levels of Assassin would produce a combo that gets +1d6 Sneak Attack every level.

[Andezzar]

Exactly, you do something like this (BAB in parenthesis)


Level

Left Side
Right Side
BAB


1
Full BAB Class 1(+1)
Wizard 1(+0)
+1


2
Psion 1(+0)
Wizard 2(+1)
+2


3
Psion 2(+1)
Wizard 3(+0)
+3



4
Psion 3(+0)
Wizard 4(+1)
+4



And so on.
You can do something similar with saves but it is more complicated because low saves only improve every three levels

[Extra Anchovies]

Exactly, you do something like this (BAB in parenthesis)


Level

Left Side
Right Side
BAB


1
Full BAB Class 1(+1)
Wizard 1(+0)
+1


2
Psion 1(+0)
Wizard 2(+1)
+2


3
Psion 2(+1)
Wizard 3(+0)
+3



4
Psion 3(+0)
Wizard 4(+1)
+4



And so on.
You can do something similar with saves but it is more complicated because low saves only improve every three levels

This is actually entirely wrong, and that's been explained above.

[Andezzar]

No it's not. That is exactly what the gestalt rules say:

Base Attack Bonus

Choose the better progression from the two classes.
Base Saving Throw Bonuses

For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.
Class Skills
A bad BAB progression gives +0 on the first class level +1 on the second and so on. Unless you also use the fractional BAB and/or saves rule, that is all you use. Without that rule there are no fractional increases each level, there are only levels with an increase and levels without.

If any gestalt level is composed of an odd and an even level of two bad BAB classes you will automatically get +1 BAB . If you set it up as I showed above, you will get full BAB on every level.

It is probably not intended that way, but that is what the rules say.

[martixy]

This is actually entirely wrong, and that's been explained above.

I am unable to determine which posts above prevents that, could you please point out, cuz right now, going level by level and taking the better progression of either class results in EXACTLY this.

[Extra Anchovies]

Progression of BAB for a wizard/psion is 1/2. Therefore, it would not grant full BAB.
these should speak for themselves

No, this is a common fallacy. What you do for both saves and BaB is basically split up your build into its two different 'sides', calculate the BaB/saves for each 'side' individually, then your character simply uses the higher of the two.

[Andezzar]

Without fractional BAB a wizard's progression is not 1/2 it is +0 on level 1, +1 on level 2 and so on.

[Extra Anchovies]

"Base Attack Bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)
Choose the better progression from the two classes."
So with OP's example you can either have the BAB of a Psywar 1/Wizard 19 or that of a Psion 20.

[Andezzar]

Where does it say that you have to use the same progression for all levels? You choose it for each level, and since there is no fractional BAB you get what I posted if you mix an odd with an even level of two low BAB classes.

[Xerlith]

If you compare "relevant levels" for spellcasting, why do you not do the same for Sneak Attack and for BAB?

Because it is called out specifically in the rules. Both classes have a "sneak attack" ability, which is the same. That's why they stack, not overlap.

Spellcasting +1 is a better quality than "no spellcasting", so you get your spellcasting.

See here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)


A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.


Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.


(...)


The rules are crystal clear.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm not sure it's completely clear that you do what I call a "running tally" of each side's BAB and each base save and then compare the totals, only using the highest for each. Rather than the wacky and completely bs "Fighter 1 / Sorc 19 // Wizard 20 gets full BAB!" nonsense.

But it's pure folly to rule it that way, and I insist VERY strongly in any game that I play in where it's gestalt that the DM handle it that way. I certainly play it the sane way when I DM gestalt games.

[1pwny]

Because it is called out specifically in the rules. Both classes have a "sneak attack" ability, which is the same. That's why they stack, not overlap.

Spellcasting +1 is a better quality than "no spellcasting", so you get your spellcasting.

See here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)


The rules are crystal clear.

Yes, I agree. Shared things (like BAB, for example), accrue at the rate of the best class.

Sorc's BAB gets better once every 2 levels. Wizards BAB accrues at the rate of once every 2 levels. The best between them is once every 2 levels.

I mean, listen. Ultimately the DM is the DM. If you come up to him and say "Hey look I have a full-save-20-BAB-full-caster!" and show him the papers, I think that most DMs would stare at you, rip up your papers, and then tell you to make a Monk 20//Commoner 20 with VoP from level 3.

Okay, maybe that would be a tad extreme.

[martixy]

these should speak for themselves

I thought we established that there are no sides and that it goes level-by-level.

As in THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19364861&postcount=13) post.

[Rebel7284]

For fun I made a gestalt build that aims to maximize saves while being effective.

Stub
Chaotic Good Star Elf

Cloistered Cleric 6/Ordained Champion 3/Ruathar 1/Contemplative 1/Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Spelldancer 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Divine Oracle 2
//
Paladin of Freedom 2/Eldeen Ranger 3/Witch Hunter 1/Cloistered Cleric +1/Swordsage 2/Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade 5/Crusader 1/Figher 1

Using Rebuke Dragons instead of turn undead.

Final result:
- Full BAB
- Saves F: 26 R:15 W:28 + 3x Cha
- DMM persist with two turning pools and Spelldance for two ways to persist buffs.
- Wisdom to AC in light armor.
- Pounce
- Two ways to channel spells, Move action + Standard action. Can be combined to cast two spells per turn in combat.
- Supernatural Spell
- Evasion
- 6 Cleric Domains, with the option to trade some of them for Fighter bonus feats if wanted.
- Reasonable initiator level with Warblade having a 6th level maneuver and Crusader having access to 5th level maneuvers.

edit:
F R W
1 cc/pal 2 0 2
2 cc/pal 1 0 1
3 cc/ran 2 2 0
4 cc/ran 1 1 1
5 cc/ran 0 0 1
6 cc/witch 2 1 2
7 ord/cc 2 0 2
8 ord/ss 1 2 2
9 ord/ss 0 1 1
10 ruath/dusk 2 2 2
11 cont/dusk 1 0 2
12 seek/dusk 2 2 0
13 exor/barb 2 0 2
14 dancer/wb 2 2 2
15 dwm/wb 1 0 2
16 dwm/wb 0 1 1
17 dwm/wb 1 1 1
18 dwm/wb 0 0 1
19 dorc/crus 2 0 2
20 dorc/fight 2 0 1
Total 26 15 28

[Terazul]

I thought we established that there are no sides and that it goes level-by-level.

As in THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19364861&postcount=13) post.

...No, that's still showing that you compare progression from both sides and make it into a whole. The "right side" never takes a class that isn't full BAB. It's a complete full BAB progression from 1-20, subsequently the character has Full BAB. Between both "sides" there is always a progression of Sorcerer casting; (even though you can't take the same class twice, the example here is to show that) at every level in Swiftblade one would lose a caster level, they gained one in Sorcerer on the "other side" which is the better progression.

You are comparing levels but always in the sense of progression; For Saves and BAB you look at the base progression for each side (Full, 3/4, 1/2) and, as several people have pointed out, essentially tally up the BAB/Saves for each "side" and use the best of each; if one side is +14 and the other is +17, use the +17. You don't keep tallying every time you get a +1, much in the same way when leveling a single-classed character you don't keep adding the Base Save numbers together; You use the best one. The only time you really hop back and forth is progression of class features, like spellcasting. In the presented example, Swiftblade is progressing Sorcerer casting, so any level where Swiftblade doesn't give any, that build makes sure Sorcerer levels do, so you take the +1 spellcasting level and ultimately end up with full casting.

[Chronos]

There aren't actually any sides, but that's the way you compute things. If you're a fighter 1/psion 19 // wizard 20, then you could have the BAB of a fighter 1/psion 19, or you could have the BAB of a wizard 20, or a number of other options. If you want to get your BAB progression from psion (and fighter) on odd-numbered levels and from wizard on even-numbered levels, then you'd have the BAB of a fighter 1/wizard 1/psion 1/wizard 1/psion 1/... etc., which is no better than what you'd get from just taking the fighter 1/psion 19 BAB.