Pathfinder Unchained...?

[Larkas]

So, I've been away from the RPG scene since January and first thing I know something that seems very interesting called Pathfinder Unchained comes out. Plain and simple: what is it? What's nice about it? What's broken about it?

[Forrestfire]

Pathfinder Unchained is basically Unearthed Arcana for Pathfinder. It's got an alternate skills system (and "Skill Unlocks," which cost a feat and give extra abilities based on ranks in the skill), some alternate WBL schemes, updates to a few classes (buffs for the rogue, minor buffs and a fairly hard nerf for the monk, and nerfs for the summoner; haven't read the barbarian), and a "Stamina" system that gives all the Combat feats added bonuses for some characters (who gets them is picked by the DM).

[Extra Anchovies]

It's a book of alternate rules and subsystems.

Four classes were reworked.
Barbarian: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/barbarian-unchained) No rage-cycling, and instead of bonuses to ability scores rage grants equivalent direct bonuses to attack/damage and provides temporary HP instead of the useless Con increase. Probably a bit of a buff from CRB barbarian, but not too different.
Monk: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained) Full BAB, better HD, you get to pick your own ki powers from a list (including the Qinggong options), and you get special "style strikes" that let you do cool stuff with your unarmed attacks. Almost a direct upgrade, but they now have a poor Will save for some reason.
Rogue: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained) Direct upgrade as far as I can tell. Free weapon finesse (plus dex to damage!), and some free debuffs whenever you land a sneak attack.
Summoner: Nerfed spell list (which is very good), and you have to pick a type for your eidolon (e.g. Angel, Elemental, Demon), but the summon monster ability and the eidolon chassis are unchanged, and those were the two main problems with the class.

Variant Multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing) lets you trade out five of your feats for some of the class features of another class. Most of them aren't worth it, but Barbarian and Bard are nice, plus Monk VMC is great for Ninjas.

Stamina and Combat Tricks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules) is a new subsystem for martials. Characters with this system have a stamina pool equal to BAB+Con modifier; they can spend stamina points to boost your attacks or to gain other benefits based on what combat feats you have. Stamina recharges at a rate of 1 point per minute of semi-rest (one move or standard action per round). Recommended free for fighters, or even for all martial characters.

Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) is an alternate system of handling wealth and magic items to limit the "christmas tree" effect. Characters only get half normal wealth by level, but all of the standard bonuses (e.g. enhancement to weapons/armor/ability scores, resistance to saves, natural armor/deflection to AC) are given out for free as you level. A great way to eliminate the standard magic item grocery list (cloak of resistance, ring of protection, and so on) to make way for actually interesting items.

That's all the notable stuff as far as I can tell, but someone else may have another thing or two to chime in with (like Forrestfire's mention of the alternate skill systems).

[Palanan]

I finally got a look at the stamina system in my DM's copy last night, and I have to say my eyes glazed over at the pages and pages of feats and their stamina benefits. I couldn't make myself plow through them all; it just didn't seem worth it, especially at the cost of a separate feat.

The unchained rogue, on the other hand, looks fantastic, and I'm hoping my DM lets me take it for a spin if we switch to our low-level campaign. Dex-to-damage as a class feature is something I'd always wanted from 3.5, and it's just one of a number of upgrades the rogue receives.

The Variant Multiclassing looks terrible to me, and as Extra Anchovies mentioned it doesn't seem worth it, apart from a few special cases.

As for the Summoner, this is one of the very few classes my DM bans outright, for exactly the issues Anchovies noted. Whatever the details of the nerfing, it doesn't seem to have addressed some of the practical trouble people have with the class.

.

[Talakeal]

Did anyone happen to notice how tools work for the consolidated skill system?

[Extra Anchovies]

As for the Summoner, this is one of the very few classes my DM bans outright, for exactly the issues Anchovies noted. Whatever the details of the nerfing, it doesn't seem to have addressed some of the practical trouble people have with the class.

Indeed. You're generally better off using the uSummoner but otherwise sticking with the APG Summoner.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) is an alternate system of handling wealth and magic items to limit the "christmas tree" effect. Characters only get half normal wealth by level, but all of the standard bonuses (e.g. enhancement to weapons/armor/ability scores, resistance to saves, natural armor/deflection to AC) are given out for free as you level. A great way to eliminate the standard magic item grocery list (cloak of resistance, ring of protection, and so on) to make way for actually interesting items.
Oh, interesting. I've wanted a good way to deal with that **** for a long time. Is it any good?

[Milo v3]

Oh, interesting. I've wanted a good way to deal with that **** for a long time. Is it any good?

It's pretty good, but it has some flaws. In my experience, it lacks specifics on handling natural weapons and it's unclear how to handle animal companions with it.

[tzar1990]

One complaint I might make about the Automatic Bonus Progression rules is that they reduce the magical power available to martial classes. You can't get a +6 equivalent weapon or armor until 19th level (remember, finding an item with a specific ability eats that much out of your bonus - if you have +3 bonus, and pick up a Flaming Burst scimitar, you use it as a +1 Flaming Burst Weapon, not a +3) and you need to burn Gifts for it, whereas in normal games you might find or purchase a +6 equivalent by 13th or 14th. I would suggest either speeding up the Weapon and Armor Attunement rates, or saying that abilities don't eat your bonus, but you can't have an ability whose effective cost is greater than your bonus.

Basically, the rules treat you as though you're spending your gold evenly, instead of on items that benefit you specifically (i.e. a Fighter would never buy a Headband of Intellect before his Belt of Strength, but these rules assume that he considers them equal priority). Speeding up magic weapon/armor acquirement will at least be more useful to martial characters than casters - and martials need all the help they can get!

[Extra Anchovies]

One complaint I might make about the Automatic Bonus Progression rules is that they reduce the magical power available to martial classes. You can't get a +6 equivalent weapon or armor until 19th level (remember, finding an item with a specific ability eats that much out of your bonus - if you have +3 bonus, and pick up a Flaming Burst scimitar, you use it as a +1 Flaming Burst Weapon, not a +3) and you need to burn Gifts for it, whereas in normal games you might find or purchase a +6 equivalent by 13th or 14th. I would suggest either speeding up the Weapon and Armor Attunement rates, or saying that abilities don't eat your bonus, but you can't have an ability whose effective cost is greater than your bonus.

Indeed. That's probably my main quibble with the subsystem. If I run a PF game at any point, I'll be using ABP, and I'll be houseruling that weapon properties only subtract a value equal to half their normal value, rounded down (e.g. a keen weapon doesn't decrease enhancement bonus, flaming burst decreases enhancement bonus by 1, etc).


Basically, the rules treat you as though you're spending your gold evenly, instead of on items that benefit you specifically (i.e. a Fighter would never buy a Headband of Intellect before his Belt of Strength, but these rules assume that he considers them equal priority). Speeding up magic weapon/armor acquirement will at least be more useful to martial characters than casters - and martials need all the help they can get!

Yeah, ABP is definitely better for characters who benefit from increasing both physical stats and mental stats (e.g. Paladins, Bards, Investigators, DSP's initiators).

[Grod_The_Giant]

It seems like the idea is that you're buying special properties with your remaining 1/2 WBL. But... maybe merge the mental/physical stat boosts, and add a separate progression for weapon enhancements?

[grarrrg]

Barbarian: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/barbarian-unchained) No rage-cycling

To clarify: It is still possible to cycle your Rage so that you are in a 'new' rage every round, but all Rage Powers are now either "always on" during a Rage, or "1/day". So while you can Rage Cycle, it is utterly pointless to do so.


Monk: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained)
Flurry has also been reworked. It is not longer "Two Weapon Fighting with one weapon" (you still can't TWF while Flurrying though).


Summoner: Nerfed spell list (which is very good), and you have to pick a type for your eidolon (e.g. Angel, Elemental, Demon), but the summon monster ability and the eidolon chassis are unchanged, and those were the two main problems with the class.

Basically: You can still make as Beatsticky of an Eidolon as you ever could (one of the BIG issues with the 'old' version), but you have a reduced Evolution-point pool to spend.
Also the Eidolon "Max Attack Cap" now applies to Manufactured Weapons as well. So "18 arms of doom" is no longer an option.


Variant Multiclassing lets you trade out five of your feats for some of the class features of another class. Most of them aren't worth it, but Barbarian and Bard are nice, plus Monk VMC is great for Ninjas.

To wit:
Gunslinger is horrendous, laughably bad. Your first 3 'bonuses' basically consist of feats. Feats with no requirements. Feats that you'd take at the start of your build if you were actually serious instead of at level 11.

Summoner is very much on the weak end.

Witch plays it too safe.


Oracle Revelations on a single-class Full Caster can be quite nice.

[Larkas]

Thank you very much, guys! I think I like most of what I see, though I can't quite understand why the monk's will save would be dropped. Still, as with UA, I think I'll have great fun with this book!

[Extra Anchovies]

Thank you very much, guys! I think I like most of what I see, though I can't quite understand why the monk's will save would be dropped.

I think it's because A) monks are partially Wis-based and B) they have a trend going of giving classes two good saves, and wanted to adapt the monk to that.

On the topic of saves, what's up with the Swashbuckler? They're a hybrid of Fighter, who has a good Fortitude save, and Gunslinger, who has a good Fortitude save, but they themselves do not have a good Fortitude save :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

I think it's because A) monks are partially Wis-based and B) they have a trend going of giving classes two good saves, and wanted to adapt the monk to that.

Actually it was "full BAB (and the d10 that goes with that) + all good saves seemed a bit much." I personally don't think so - after all, UnMonk is still MAD, though less so - but on paper I could see a DM recoiling at it.

What I think they should have done if they were going to nerf will saves is buff Still Mind and/or Diamond Soul. Or maybe give them weak fort, which is all right given all the immunities they can get.

[Larkas]

Well, it's still relatively easy to get immunity to mind affecting effects in PF, right? So there's that. It's not the same as a good Will save (and its dependent on wealth), but it's something.

[Psyren]

Well, it's still relatively easy to get immunity to mind affecting effects in PF, right? So there's that. It's not the same as a good Will save (and its dependent on wealth), but it's something.

Actually, it's much harder in PF. Mind Blank only gives a +8 now instead of full immunity, and it's a resistance bonus, so it won't stack with your cloak or Protection from Spells. In addition, the Protection from X spells only protect you from charms and compulsions cast by that particular alignment, so neutral enchanters can bypass all of them. Polymorph effects were also nerfed.

[Ssalarn]

Actually, it's much harder in PF. Mind Blank only gives a +8 now instead of full immunity, and it's a resistance bonus, so it won't stack with your cloak or Protection from Spells. In addition, the Protection from X spells only protect you from charms and compulsions cast by that particular alignment, so neutral enchanters can bypass all of them. Polymorph effects were also nerfed.



I'm surprised there aren't more protection from neutrality spells. Seems like a grievous oversight.

"With enemies you know where you stand, but neutrals? Who knows!"
-Zapp Brannigan

[NightbringerGGZ]

On the topic of saves, what's up with the Swashbuckler? They're a hybrid of Fighter, who has a good Fortitude save, and Gunslinger, who has a good Fortitude save, but they themselves do not have a good Fortitude save :smallconfused:

It's a horribly designed class? It's a "hybrid" of a Fighter and a class that was originally a Fighter archetype. It finally makes the Grit mechanic functional, then provides so few useful deeds that there's no point in having the mechanic. Its designers were too afraid to step outside of the box when it comes to martials, so there are several pre-existing classes, PRCs and builds that fill its niche better.


Anyway, back to Pathfinder Unchained. I find the new Disease and Poison rules pretty interesting, and they're a bit step towards making poison use more viable. Basically, there are now "Progression Tracks" for poisons and diseases which you move down as you fail your saves, and as targets move down the track they have additional debuffs.

For instance, the Dexterity Poison tracks moves along Healthy > Sluggish > Stiffened > Staggered > Immobile > Dead. When you fail your first save, you go to the Sluggish state, taking a -2 penalty on Reflex Saves, AC and Dexterity-based attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks. When you fail your next save you are now Stiffened, rendering you Flat-Footed, denying you your Dex to AC and you can't make Attacks of Opportunity.

That makes Poison use much more interesting for Sneak Attack builds, particularly if you can get other party members to use them too. Some of the other options are pretty interesting as well. Strength poisons severly reduce your carrying capacity right away, which could be a really easy way to disable full plate wearers. The first track of Intelligence poisons reduce the DCs of Int-based spell casters by 2 and lock them out of their highest spell level.

[grarrrg]

On the topic of saves, what's up with the Swashbuckler? They're a hybrid of Fighter, who has a good Fortitude save, and Gunslinger, who has a good Fortitude save, but they themselves do not have a good Fortitude save :smallconfused:

Witch > INT based caster
Oracle > CHA based caster

Shaman is Witch/Oracle

Shaman > WIS based caster

The quickie excuse well thought-out reasoning was that "Prepared Arcane > INT, Prepared Divine > WIS, Spontaneous > CHA"
Which doesn't explain Inquisitor or Paladin, but...

[JonathonWilder]

Personally I would have gone with them being a 'exception' like barbarians by giving them full BAB but only d8 when it comes to gaining hit points, then allowing the monk to keep all good saves.

[Psyren]

Personally I would have gone with them being a 'exception' like barbarians by giving them full BAB but only d8 when it comes to gaining hit points, then allowing the monk to keep all good saves.

While I was the one who pointed out that d10 connection, I'm not sure losing an average of 1hp per hd would have convinced them that full BAB + all good saves was fine.

Personally I would rather they had weak fort, and then grant their immunity abilities sooner, as well as allowing diamond soul to help them resist level drain. Well, I suppose they did drop Diamond Body 3 levels, but they also nerfed it to a cure ability instead of an immunity.