Can You Combine Feats?

[Water Bob]

I thought I knew the answer to this, but now I'm second guessing myself.

If a character has two or more Feats that apply to the same action or die roll (attack), do they all apply?

I was under the impression that only one Feat could be used at a time.



For example, if a character is using a bow and has both Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage on targets up to 30 feet) and Rapid Shot (allows a second attack with a ranged weapon), could the character use both feats when attacking a target that is at 30 feet or less? In this case, the character gets two attacks at the target (extra attack provided by the Rapid Shot Feat), and each attack is at an additional +1 attack and +1 damage (provided by the Point Blank Shot Feat).

I would think that the player should pick one or the other.

By the d20 rules, can both Feats be used?

Is this described anywhere in the rules?





Another example:

A character is using the Power Attack Feat to suffer a -1 penalty on his attack, but gain a +1 damage point if he hits. The character also has the Weapon Focus Feat which provides a +1 attack bonus if using the selected weapon.

Thus, combining the feats, the character would have no penalty (+0 attack as Focus and Power Attack cancel each other out)) on the attack but gain a +1 damage (provided by the Power Attack feat).

Again, I would think that the character should choose which feat he wants to use--that he can't use both.

What do the rules say?

[torrasque666]

The only time that feats might not be able to be used in a situation are if the feat itself gives a cooldown, an action requirement, or explicitly calls out not working in a certain situation. Most feats aren't even actively used, they just apply whenever their text says they do.


So yeah, PBS and RS work in tandem.

[Aleolus]

Easy. way to tell: Do the feats require a dedicated action to use? If yes, then do one or both of them have a duration longer than one round?

[Crake]

Easy. way to tell: Do the feats require a dedicated action to use? If yes, then do one or both of them have a duration longer than one round?

An example of this would be for example, rapid shot, which requires a full attack action, and manyshot, which requires a standard action, they would not be usable in tandem. Passive bonuses apply whenever they say they do, so things like weapon focus, with no limitations, simply always applies

[Water Bob]

I think I found something in the rules that actually supports my initial thoughts in the OP.

Note that I've only been speaking about multiple Feats that influence one action, like an attack roll.

The section on Stacking on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG speaks to this. Going by what it says there, technically, a character who takes Weapon Focus for the Bow (+1 attack) and also has Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage with the bow for target up to 30') does not get to use both modifiers on the attack throw. They wouldn't stack. It wouldn't be +2 attack and +1 damage at a target within 30'. It would be +1 attack and +1 damage.

So, I was actually correct in the OP...


....I think.


I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise by a good argument.







Also, that wold mean that Power Attack cannot be combined with a Feat like Weapon Focus, too. The effect on the attack roll would not stack.

Thoughts?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think I found something in the rules that actually supports my initial thoughts in the OP.

Note that I've only been speaking about multiple Feats that influence one action, like an attack roll.

The section on Stacking on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG speaks to this. Going by what it says there, technically, a character who takes Weapon Focus for the Bow (+1 attack) and also has Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage with the bow for target up to 30') does not get to use both modifiers on the attack throw. They wouldn't stack. It wouldn't be +2 attack and +1 damage at a target within 30'. It would be +1 attack and +1 damage.

So, I was actually correct in the OP...


....I think.


I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise by a good argument.







Also, that wold mean that Power Attack cannot be combined with a Feat like Weapon Focus, too. The effect on the attack roll would not stack.

Thoughts?

Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Power Attack all grant modifiers (positive and negative). Those modifiers do not have a name. Thus, they are Untyped Bonus, which explicitly stack with each other. Unless the feats you are looking at say why type of modifier, or specify an action, you can combine them (within the limitation of the feats).

[Invader]

Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Power Attack all grant modifiers (positive and negative). Those modifiers do not have a name. Thus, they are Untyped Bonus, which explicitly stack with each other. Unless the feats you are looking at say why type of modifier, or specify an action, you can combine them (within the limitation of the feats).

Exactly this.

First sentence, second paragraph, same page you're on. "Bonuses of different types always stack".

[Water Bob]

Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Power Attack all grant modifiers (positive and negative). Those modifiers do not have a name. Thus, they are Untyped Bonus, which explicitly stack with each other. Unless the feats you are looking at say why type of modifier, or specify an action, you can combine them (within the limitation of the feats).

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

Do those modifiers have a name? It's clear that they don't stack, though.

So...what the difference in the Point Blank Shot attack modifier and the Weapon Focus modifier? They seem to fall within the examples of what doesn't stack.

[eggynack]

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

Those things all have particular listed bonus types, and in the cases where those types match up, there is no stacking. For example, the belt and bull's strength are both enhancement bonuses to strength. By contrast, the feats lack a type, and are therefore unnamed bonuses, which stack.

[Aleolus]

The belt of giant strength and bulls strength spell both give typed bonuses (enhancement). Magic armor and the Mage Armor spell both give typed bonuses (Armor). Point Blank Shot abd Weapon Focus don't specify what type of bonus they give, therefore they are simply generic bonuses that stack with everything, including other generic bonuses

[Hiro Quester]

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.


Those are all the same type.. Belt of GS and cleric bull str are both enhancement bonuses. Mage armor and plate mail are both armor bonuses.

Ring of protection is deflection, though. And divine favor is a luck bonus. Those stack.




So...what the difference in the Point Blank Shot attack modifier and the Weapon Focus modifier? They seem to fall within the examples of what doesn't stack.

Untyped bonuses. They stack with one another.

[Water Bob]

Count me as persuaded. Thanks for the dialogue.

[ithildur]

Count me as persuaded. Thanks for the dialogue.


There's really no argument or debate here, it's simply how 3.5e rules work with regards to these examples, quite unambiguously, unlike some other rules.

[Necroticplague]

I see where you are coming from, but if you keep reading on page 21, under the Behind The Curtain section, it specifically states that a belt of giant strength and the effects of the cleric's spell bull's strength, do not stack. Neither do Mage Armor, magical plate, a ring of protection, and the divine favor spell.

Do those modifiers have a name? It's clear that they don't stack, though.

So...what the difference in the Point Blank Shot attack modifier and the Weapon Focus modifier? They seem to fall within the examples of what doesn't stack.

...Have you actually read the descriptions of those things? They all do have types. The belt and the spell are both enhancement bonuses (boni?), mage armor and magical plate both provide armor bonuses. Ring of Protection and Divine favor actually do stack with each other, since one is a luck bonus and the other is a deflection bonus.

[Flickerdart]

Not only do the bonuses from Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus stack, but Rapid Shot isn't even a bonus and so the stacking rules have nothing to do with it.

[Rubik]

Not only do the bonuses from Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus stack, but Rapid Shot isn't even a bonus and so the stacking rules have nothing to do with it.Right. And "you can only use one feat at a time" doesn't make any sense. If you've got Improved Toughness (+1 hp per level) and you want to Power Attack, do you lose hp? If you have Obtain Familiar and want to cast an Empowered spell, do you lose your familiar and then need to wait a year and a day to summon a new one? If you have a prestige class that requires Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, do you lose all your PrC benefits because you can only use one of those feats at a time? Can you not ever use Shock Trooper's benefits because you can't use Power Attack and Shock Trooper at the same time?

No, so long as the feats themselves don't forbid it, any bonuses are of stackable types, and there's no action economy interference, you can use multiple feats together any time you want.

[OldTrees1]

The OP has been persuaded. No need to repeat yourself after you already won the argument.

[Flickerdart]

The OP has been persuaded. No need to repeat yourself after you already won the argument.
If the rate of thread necomancy in this forum is any indication, more people read these threads than just the people who post in them initially. There is nothing wrong with setting the record straight for others who have the same question and Google an answer at some later date.

[eggynack]

If the rate of thread necomancy in this forum is any indication, more people read these threads than just the people who post in them initially. There is nothing wrong with setting the record straight for others who have the same question and Google an answer at some later date.
Perhaps, though I suspect that the explanation that has been given would be sufficient for most future forum goers. It's a relatively simple issue, after all.

[Curmudgeon]

I can see some possibility for confusion if someone's coming from a 4e background. D&D 4th Edition has "feat" as a bonus type.

[Necroticplague]

I can see some possibility for confusion if someone's coming from a 4e background. D&D 4th Edition has "feat" as a bonus type.

And somewhat confusingly, not all feats give feat bonuses. Some give untyped (just like in 3.5).