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View Full Version : Reserve feats: What was WotC thinking?



GMBeowulf
2007-04-24, 11:08 AM
Okay, so let me get this straight: For the low, low price of one feat, a wizard gets to use a supernatural ability (not affected by spell resistance, doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity) as many times as her wants, so long as he doesn't cast one of his high-level spells. Oh, and he gets a caster level bonus to certain types of spells as a bonus.

Given that a high-level wizard's only weaknesses are: 1) Running out of spells and 2) Spell Resistance, does it seem right that with only one feat you can ignore them both?

What the hell were the authors of Complete Mage thinking? That high-level wizards weren't broken enough?

Luircin
2007-04-24, 11:14 AM
High-level wizards don't run out of spells. If they're running low, they pop into a magnificent mansion or a rope trick and crash for eight hours. Or two, if they're smart enough to wear a ring of sustenance.

From my experience, reserve feats tend to weaken wizards when used. During the round that they use a reserve feat, they're not altering the very nature of reality in six seconds. Also, reserve feats tend to just do damage or have minor effects, which tends to be much less game-breaking than, say... time stop.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 11:15 AM
I am currently playing a 10th-level wizard with the Storm Bolt reserve feat.

I pretty much never use it except for style, anymore. Why? Because I have better things to do with my rounds. Throwing out 5d6 electrical damage is an absolute joke even compared to what I can do with my first- and second-level spells in most situations.

Reserve feats are okay at lower levels. At those, sacrificing a spell slot is a much bigger deal--giving up one of your two 2nd level spells is huge. At level 10, sacrificing a 2nd level spell slot isn't a very big deal... but then I'd be doing 2d6, which would be completely negligible. As is, I'm keeping Lightnign Leap in one of my three fifth-level slots, rather than, oh, Baleful Polymorph, for 5d6 lines of lightning I don't use every fight and that I never use when the situation is really dangerous.

Basically, this just means that wizards can actually roll a couple of damage dice rather than just standing around rolling 1d20 for their light crossbow, in mook fights which are going to be won anyway.

Reserve feats: they're really not that good, people.

Hyfigh
2007-04-24, 11:19 AM
At low level some of the reserve feats are awesome. They allow wizards to actually be useful in more than 2 encounters. High end though, they aren't worth much. 9D6 damage is the max, and that reserves a 9th level spell. 9d6 damage that can't be augmented isn't great. Sure it sounds good, but think about the comparison of an approriate CR monsters HP. You'll barely put a dent in them... Great, so you're the only one who can actually deal damage. That just means you're the first target.

EvilElitest
2007-04-24, 12:04 PM
Think about it this way, if a high level mage run completly out of spells after a massive fight and is still in combat these act as the fall back plan
You might consider them broken, but wizards already are, they are to good for these
from,
EE

Caelestion
2007-04-24, 12:04 PM
Well, at the risk of sounding elitist or "nerf-ist", it *is* possible to play a character who doesn't try to beat every encounter instantly. Reserve feats, in my opinion, are there for a little style and flair, much like the entire Warlock class, really.

EvilElitest
2007-04-24, 12:08 PM
Well, at the risk of sounding elitist or "nerf-ist", it *is* possible to play a character who doesn't try to beat every encounter instantly. Reserve feats, in my opinion, are there for a little style and flair, much like the entire Warlock class, really.

I hope the elitest comment was not directed at me
from,
EE

Caelestion
2007-04-24, 12:10 PM
That's the risk of using real words in your username. Try using pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis next time :)

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-24, 12:11 PM
I'd agree with what several posters have written: Reserve feats are for low level wizards. When you're a party at level 2 or 3, the wizard has to be really careful about his spells, especially if there's no guarantee of rest before additional encounters. These feats let him do something magical, while still saving the good spells (which even at low levels will often be better than the reserve effect) for the true pinch fights.

I know I've definitely felt the need to be overly cautious with spells, falling back on my essentially useless crossbow for most fights. In a situation where you don't KNOW if there's going to be a bigger, harder fight right around the corner, that's a perfectly sound tactic. But it's no fun. At least with the reserve abilities you can contribute somewhat (again, not as much as casting the real spell would contribute) and in a way that matches your arcane-caster concept.

The feats might look too good, much as the Warlock looks too good to some people, but they're really not that strong. It's not like wizards are getting this for free; they have to spend a feat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 12:12 PM
If he were talking to you, he'd've said Elitest. He said elitist, which is the proper spelling, and therefore was not mentioning your name. :P

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-24, 12:12 PM
Aye, they're not very good in combat situations. Great for getting that "I am magical and you are not, I open doors by shooting fire at them, neener neener" flavor, though.

Caelestion
2007-04-24, 12:14 PM
Full marks for style every time :) After all, you presumably roleplay to have fun, so why not make others laugh with your mastery of BILC (because it looks cool) *g*

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-24, 12:18 PM
Think about it this way, if a high level mage run completly out of spells after a massive fight and is still in combat these act as the fall back plan
You might consider them broken, but wizards already are, they are to good for these
from,
EEActually, if the mage runs completely out of spells he can't use the reserve feats, as they require you to still have a prepared spell "in reserve." They are intended to be used instead of expending your spells, rather than a last-ditch "i have nothing left" ability.

In terms of a FPS, it's like trying to beat every level with the weak unlimited-ammo starting gun, saving the rockets and energy weapons for "boss" fights. Might be a viable tactic for the first few levels, but in the final stages of the game it's just not going to work out.

Talya
2007-04-24, 01:01 PM
High-level wizards don't run out of spells. If they're running low, they pop into a magnificent mansion or a rope trick and crash for eight hours.


I keep seeing this argument.

It's wrong. Entirely wrong.

Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick don't stop time from flowing in the world around you. D&D is not like a computer game where you can shut down and rest for 8 hours and load up and everything is how you left it. Generally there's a time limit on whatever you are doing that will severely hamper you (or wipe out a few villages) if you can't get it done quickly. Generally intelligent monsters don't wait around nicely for you to come back and kill them after you pop out to rest and regain all your spells. Heck, Magnificent Mansion itself, as handy as it is, is a deathtrap if used in that way...nothing like watching a wizard cast it, and take his party inside to rest and heal up, then organizing a small army outside that very spot to ambush them when they come out. (What? Monsters can have spellcraft, too.)

Edit: Oh, and better leave your bags of holding outside the rope trick for others to pick up and steal all your stuff...

Aquillion
2007-04-24, 01:15 PM
...so reserve feats turn wizards into warlocks, basically? Yeah. That'll get you far.

(On the other hand, you're getting what amounts to the trademark ability of a warlock's entire progression for a single feat. And it's still considered underpowered. Poor warlocks.)

LotharBot
2007-04-24, 01:25 PM
I don't have complete mage handy, so let me know if I'm wrong on any of this:

All reserve feats really do is make it so your wizard can plink away for a few d6 elemental damage each round instead of rolling a 19 on his attack roll and missing with his non-magical crossbow he's had since level 1. Keeps them involved in combat at the cost of a feat.

They might possibly be overpowered at level 1 -- a spell of burning hands means d6 fire damage every round from your wizard. But then, a level 1 wizard is generally one of the least useful members of the party. The rogue can undo traps, the armored types (fighter, cleric) can bash stuff, and the wizard can contribute to maybe one or two encounters before he's out of spells. This keeps him contributing to every encounter.

They're definitely NOT overpowered at high levels. So the wizard can do 9d6 fire damage every round... so what? The rogue can flank something and full attack, and do about 60d6 + 12 strength drain, and the fighter can clobber stuff for d12+60 damage four times -- and these are completely straightforward non-twinked characters. The only time the damage might really matter is against something with an absurdly high AC -- in which case, the wizard has better things to be doing than plinking away for 9d6 fire damage.

selfcritical
2007-04-24, 01:28 PM
They're also good for people who are new to playing casters, to give them a "default" action to take every combat round.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 01:32 PM
...except that you've got a 30'-range-orb or a 20' line with a fixed damage type that you can't adjust, add blast shapes (like extend or chain) to, et cetera. So you're not quite a Warlock.

Edit: gah quit it with the bag of holding stuff. First of all, that's a crummy remnant of older additions that needs to be tossed. WotC articles have even said so. Secondly, mechanically, only bags of holding and portal holes interact that way. There is no rule on what happens when you bring one into a Rope Trick, so by RAW, nothing happens even though there's fluff text saying "it's dangerous". And Rope Trick isn't even equivalent to a portable hole! One's an extradimensional space, the other is a nondimensional space.

As for not being able to rest whenever you like... you can't always do so, but traditionally, adventurers have the initiative. They are proactive. They go to their enemies.

Theodoxus
2007-04-24, 01:37 PM
Warlocks are way better than a reserve feat... they can modify their eldritch bolt into something resembling usefulness (though they're still blasters, at least they have more style than warmages). Plus, EB isn't their only trick. All their abilities are pretty nifty, if not game breaking like a wizards. It's like the difference between the original gish builds and the Duskblade. Warlock and Duskblade are 'easy mode' for what they do. Easy mode tends to not be optimal, but it is easy... hence the name.

When I first read Reserve feats, I too thought 'wtf' - but as we all know, it's never about the damage dice... it's about augmenting the base damage. That's why melee fighters will always do more damage than 10d6 SA rogues. That's why save or die and save or suck mages will always be superior to 10d6 fireball blasters. Yes, reserve feats are great against popcorn opponents, though hardly as effective as a single fireball (or lightning, depending on how said popcorn is arranged).

Theo

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 01:55 PM
Swallow Whole is particularily effective against popcorn opponents.

Zherog
2007-04-24, 02:04 PM
High-level wizards don't run out of spells. If they're running low, they pop into a magnificent mansion or a rope trick and crash for eight hours. Or two, if they're smart enough to wear a ring of sustenance.

Talya covered the tactical problems with these spells well (even if she was wrong about bags of holding, as BWL was kind enough to point out ;) ). She didn't, however, address the ring of sustenance.

In sort, the ring does not allow a caster to regain spells faster. While it negates the need for food and water, and allows you to get 8 hours worth of sleep in 2 hours, you still need 8 complete hours of rest in order to prepare spells.



The description of the ring of sustenance says the user gets all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 2 hours. How does this affect a bard, sorcerer, or wizard who wants to regain spells? Specifically, how does this interact with the casting limit rule in the Player’s Handbook?

In the case of a ring of sustenance, “all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep” means the character sleeps for 2 hours and regains 1 hit point per level (see the rules for natural healing on Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). If the ring wearer is fatigued, 2 hours of sleep removes the fatigue.

A wizard must have 8 hours of rest before regaining spells. If the wizard doesn’t have to sleep for some reason, she still requires 8 hours of rest to regain any spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells on page 177 of the Player’s Handbook). A ring of sustenance doesn’t change that.

A bard or sorcerer regains spells only once a day, and a ring of sustenance doesn’t increase that.

A ring of sustenance also doesn’t exempt the wearer from the casting limit rule. Whenever a spellcaster gets a new set of spells, any spell slot she used in the last 8 hours is not available. This rule has nothing to do with how much sleep the spellcaster gets; it reflects how long a spell slot must remain empty before the character can refill it. The ring doesn’t make 8 hours pass, so it doesn’t help the character refill the used spell slot.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 02:08 PM
The FAQ ruling is as official as all the others, of course, but it's an intentional nerf not an honest reading IMO. Rest is damn-sure a benefit of sleep.

In any case Complete Mage has a bedroll that does let you get eight hours of sleep and rest in one hour, so you can re-prepare spells, once/day. I think it does, at least, and because this is the internet I don't even have to double-check my facts or anything, I can just post my vague recollections as facts!

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-24, 02:12 PM
I believe that item is once per 48 hours, technically, but that might not be right either =)

Besides, even if your particular caster isn't able to refresh spells whenever he wants, that doesn't change the fact that the reserve feats aren't overpowered, or even really powerful at all.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 02:14 PM
Yeah. Reserve feats are kind of like this:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/mgorinev/kiwibox1.jpg

Fun, but not very useful.

Flying Elephant
2007-04-24, 02:14 PM
Wasn't there a reserve feat that let you summon an elemental? I could picture that being cheap.
Wizard: Elemental, spring that trap.
Trap: Boom!
Wizard: Summon elemental! Elemental, check for enemies in the next room.
Elemental: *enters next room and dies*
etc. etc.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 02:15 PM
You can already do all that for a minimal price with a Wand of Summon Monster I, 750 gp. Good traps are self-resetting.

Jayabalard
2007-04-24, 02:18 PM
Swallow Whole is particularily effective against popcorn opponents.Not really, it tends to make people choke... especially if you try several in a row. Swallow-after-chewing works much better.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-24, 02:20 PM
You know, that reminds me. People think D&D physics is bad? What about D&D biology? The T-Rex... swallows you whole. And you are in its stomach.

Then you cut yourself out, but before anyone else in there can come out with you, muscular action seals the wound.

That is some hardcore muscular action right there.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-24, 02:23 PM
...not to mention that cutting your way out deals an entire 25 of the T-rex's 180 HP.

Edit: Although actually, by the RAW you are in the creature's gizzard, which would be more muscular, and less vital if punctured. So it's a little more okay.

Zherog
2007-04-24, 02:36 PM
You know, that reminds me. People think D&D physics is bad? What about D&D biology? The T-Rex... swallows you whole. And you are in its stomach.

Then you cut yourself out, but before anyone else in there can come out with you, muscular action seals the wound.

That is some hardcore muscular action right there.

Didn't you know all t-rexes do 500 crunches before breakfast, and another 500 before bedtime?

storybookknight
2007-04-24, 02:49 PM
If there weren't other good feats for wizards to be taking, it'd be pretty okay. As it is, the opportunity cost isn't worth it.

You could give it to wizards to make them less underpowered at low levels as a class feature, but I dunno what you'd take away to make them less overpowered at high levels.

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-24, 02:49 PM
You know, that reminds me. People think D&D physics is bad? What about D&D biology? The T-Rex... swallows you whole. And you are in its stomach.

Then you cut yourself out, but before anyone else in there can come out with you, muscular action seals the wound.

That is some hardcore muscular action right there.


Adventurer: *cuts way out* Wow, thos sure are some stomach muscles, you just closed a massive disembowelling wound

T-rex: Thanks, I have been working out!

kamikasei
2007-04-24, 03:04 PM
Oh, man! Face-Changer looks like a really nice option for our Changeling Beguiler... I'm tempted to take it myself if I get a chance to play such a character at that level.

But yeah, although some of the Reserve feats look cool, none of them can really be said to increase a wizard's power.

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-24, 04:32 PM
I think of them kinda like improved skill bonus feats (the ones from PHB, like magical aptitiude). Nice flavor, especially the non-damage ones, but not overpowered.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-24, 04:38 PM
because this is the internet I don't even have to double-check my facts or anything, I can just post my vague recollections as facts!

I get away with that in real life more often than on the intranets.

JungeonJeff
2007-04-24, 06:38 PM
Some of the potential of Reseve feats i saw was the Summon Elemental, and Minor Shapechange, and Blade of Force. This is mostly because i tend to play melee arcanists (Spell swords, Eldric Knights, Abjurant Champion etc.)

Summon Elemental is great for flanking buddy, as well as trap-finding (even if the trap is re-setting it might be good to know that the sirling blades spring from the ground, istead of the cealing.)

Minoor Shapechange grants you, by expending a swift action, a choice of a range of abilities, the best being temporary hp = to your HD. Thats more or less absorbing the first incomming strike every round (at least on the power lvl my group plays...)

Blade of Force falls a bit behind the other two, but if you mix Abjurant Champion in your builds, +1 CL on force effects (Mage armor, and Shield ex.) is good, and it gives you the equivalent of a Ghost Touch weapon that deal extra damage on your first attack next round (if you play an melee arcanist, you tend not to have too many attacks anyways)


So all in all, i think the Reserve Feats are usefull, not all powerful.



Oh and the magic Bedroll? -In 1 hours rest, you gain the benefit of 8hours rest. HOWEVER -spells cast within the last 8 hours (the 1 hour in the bedroll, and 7 hours before i guess) _still_ counts towards your daily limit!
-Im guessing this enables you to actually remorize other spells than you had previously..?

-and this benefit cant be used again within 48 hours after using the bedroll.

Cybren
2007-04-25, 01:32 AM
I guess the teleport one is kind of okay if you like being able to teleport a distance you could have walked anyway

Zagreen
2007-04-25, 01:38 AM
I do kinda like Minor Shapeshift. Having a useful swift action bonus with no limits on use is very, very nice.

I don't think Blade of Force is nearly as good though. It's only useful for casters with melee ability, and casters with melee ability generally have a lot of other swift action abilities to use instead. Plus they tend to be fairly feat hungry too.

JungeonJeff
2007-04-25, 02:12 AM
I do kinda like Minor Shapeshift. Having a useful swift action bonus with no limits on use is very, very nice.

I don't think Blade of Force is nearly as good though. It's only useful for casters with melee ability, and casters with melee ability generally have a lot of other swift action abilities to use instead. Plus they tend to be fairly feat hungry too.

I agree, thats why i think it fall a bit behind the previous two, although when playing a melee acanist, i tend to avoid feat chains (WF, WS, GWF / PA, Cleave, Greatercleave), and focus on specific feats instead (Austic Knight / Arcane Strike / Reserve Feats etc)

Whamme
2007-04-25, 03:28 AM
If there weren't other good feats for wizards to be taking, it'd be pretty okay. As it is, the opportunity cost isn't worth it.

You could give it to wizards to make them less underpowered at low levels as a class feature, but I dunno what you'd take away to make them less overpowered at high levels.

I'd say cut off the top two levels of spells, then spread out the existing spells between the 'nine' levels of casting. (So the best level seven spells become level 9, while the second tier ones become level 8, or something)

Fixer
2007-05-08, 12:10 PM
At low level some of the reserve feats are awesome. They allow wizards to actually be useful in more than 2 encounters. High end though, they aren't worth much. 9D6 damage is the max, and that reserves a 9th level spell.
Actually, using Heighten Spell and Epic Spell Slots you CAN go over 9d6 but at epic levels that's not much anyway.

*EDIT* Whoops, Heighten Spell feat does limit to 9th level. Is there an epic version?

Caelestion
2007-05-08, 12:16 PM
I'd say cut off the top two levels of spells, then spread out the existing spells between the 'nine' levels of casting. (So the best level seven spells become level 9, while the second tier ones become level 8, or something)
If you're going to do that to wizards, I certainly hope you also do it to clerics, druids and any class that also has 8th and 9th-level spells (however few).

jameswilliamogle
2007-05-08, 12:18 PM
The fire burst one has been really powerful on the elemental savant mage in my current campaign. Throwing around 10d6 fireballs at L6 ain't no joke (he had some other boosting variants and feats too, I think). The staying power of the 4d6 blast is ok, too.

That Minor Shapeshift is wicked powerful: gain temporary HP = to current HD as a swift action?! That's almost as good as DR [level] / - !

Also, has anyone seen the new Complete Champion excerpt? There's a reserve feat that heals. That seems better than the fire blast / acid splash feats.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-08, 12:51 PM
In terms of a FPS, it's like trying to beat every level with the weak unlimited-ammo starting gun, saving the rockets and energy weapons for "boss" fights. Might be a viable tactic for the first few levels, but in the final stages of the game it's just not going to work out.

Obviously, you've never tried taking down Atlantean Centaurs with nothing more than a pair of Colt .45s and some mad Tumble skills.:smallamused: Or even the big giant head, come to think of it.:smallbiggrin:

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-08, 04:13 PM
The reserve feats are fantastic for those of us that do not read the Monster manual or the SRD while they play. when you're going up against something that has SR or a certain immunity to your favorite elemental/energy type, you can test it on said creature without burning a spell. It is good for those of us that enjoy hording spells.

They are also fun to role play; like randomly shocking the helloutuva random creature... calling it magical Tourette's =_)