Durkon's prophecy

[RagingHalfling]

Durkin's prophecy is that he will go home after he dies. Durkon will bring disaster to the dwarven lands after when he returns home (prophecy from volume 0). Maybe Durkula will travel to the dwarven lands and bring disaster and do something bad there.

[grandpheonix]

Durkin's prophecy is that he will go home after he dies. Durkon will bring disaster to the dwarven lands after when he returns home (prophecy from volume 0). Maybe Durkula will travel to the dwarven lands and bring disaster and do something bad there.

That's the general consensus. How its gonna happen? Who knows.

Im gonna go with the guess that as a servant of Hel, Durkula is going to vamp alot of dwarves and make Hel more widely spread. Banjo is evidence of the more followers, the more power a deity has. Imagine all of the Dwarven Clerics being vampires? All of them with raise dead will make a massive force to be dealt with.

[Peelee]

That's the general consensus. How its gonna happen? Who knows.

Im gonna go with the guess that as a servant of Hel, Durkula is going to vamp alot of dwarves and make Hel more widely spread. Banjo is evidence of the more followers, the more power a deity has. Imagine all of the Dwarven Clerics being vampires? All of them with raise dead will make a massive force to be dealt with.

What would vampiric clerics do with Raise Dead?

[Quild]

Durkin's prophecy is that he will go home after he dies. Durkon will bring disaster to the dwarven lands after when he returns home (prophecy from volume 0). Maybe Durkula will travel to the dwarven lands and bring disaster and do something bad there.

Durkon will technically bring Death and Destruction. It could be cleric domains and maybe, just maybe, he won't bring any disaster to his homeland.

[dancrilis]

What would vampiric clerics do with Raise Dead?

I am not sure if this is a serious question - but presumably they would use it to return the dead to life (it doesn't have a lot of other uses).

[NerdyKris]

The prophecy is (emphasis mine)


When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.

That wording does not really work with "He will show up while having the death and destruction domains.

[Quild]

The prophecy is (emphasis mine)



That wording does not really work with "He will show up while having the death and destruction domains.

You don't exactly expect him to wipe out dwarven lands, right?

[Dragonfan]

I think the High Priest of Hel will bring some sort of disease to the Dwarvenlands. The Dwarves who die will all go to Hel and that is what Hel wants. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)

[goodpeople25]

You don't exactly expect him to wipe out dwarven lands, right?
I am not sure what NerdyKris thinks. But to me that wording seems to say that there will death and destruction and at least an attempt to bring it to them all, wether not he actually manages to destroy and kill all of them, is a different question on the nature of prophecy. Plus it could just mean death and destruction in general to dwarfs and their lands. Not total destruction.

[littlebum2002]

The prophecy is (emphasis mine)



That wording does not really work with "He will show up while having the death and destruction domains.

Just curious: what happens if Durkula shows up and teaches everyone the Death and Destruction spell lists? He will have brought Death and Destruction to them all.

[grandpheonix]

What would vampiric clerics do with Raise Dead?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html

[goodpeople25]

Just curious: what happens if Durkula shows up and teaches everyone the Death and Destruction spell lists? He will have brought Death and Destruction to them all.
Can you really just teach clerics domain spell lists?
Isn't the most viable way to do that is to convert them to Hel, (or another god with those domains) and the most viable way to do that is to vamp them.
So... Double Prophecy!?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html
That spell is not raise dead. This is raise dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)

[NerdyKris]

You don't exactly expect him to wipe out dwarven lands, right?

You can bring death and destruction without wiping someplace off the map. It clearly points towards actual destruction and death, not metaphorically bringing the domains of death and destruction into dwarven lands. For starters, that would be a ridiculously pointless prophecy to give the head cleric, given how rare and important the cleric made it seem. That's something the Oracle might do, but not the head of a pantheon to his high priest.

[D.One]

You can bring death and destruction without wiping someplace off the map. It clearly points towards actual destruction and death, not metaphorically bringing the domains of death and destruction into dwarven lands. For starters, that would be a ridiculously pointless prophecy to give the head cleric, given how rare and important the cleric made it seem. That's something the Oracle might do, but not the head of a pantheon to his high priest.

I believe the prophecy will be fulfilled both ways: he will bring some sort of catastrophic event (with death and destruction involved), and will also bring Death and Destruction (domains), in the form of a established clergy of Hel - something that, as far as we've seen, doesn't exist yet.

[Peelee]

I am not sure if this is a serious question - but presumably they would use it to return the dead to life (it doesn't have a lot of other uses).
Fortunately, my cconfusion was illustrated perfectly by grandphoenix and goodpeople25.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html


That spell is not raise dead. This is raise dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)

A vampire cleric with raise dead is no different than a normal cleric with raise dead. Other than, ya know, being a vampire. So a bunch of vampire clerics with Raise Dead would be no more a force to be reckoned with than a bunch of vampire clerics with Heal. or Create Food and Water. Or any other standard cleric spell.

Leading to the slightly rewritten question, what would (specifically) vampire clerics do with Raise Dead (that other clerics cannot)?

[D.One]

Fortunately, my cconfusion was illustrated perfectly by grandphoenix and goodpeople25.




A vampire cleric with raise dead is no different than a normal cleric with raise dead. Other than, ya know, being a vampire. So a bunch of vampire clerics with Raise Dead would be no more a force to be reckoned with than a bunch of vampire clerics with Heal. or Create Food and Water. Or any other standard cleric spell.

Leading to the slightly rewritten question, what would (specifically) vampire clerics do with Raise Dead (that other clerics cannot)?

I believe that either grandphoenix meant, by Raise Dead, the unspecified spell that Mallack used to accelerate Durkon's vampirization, or that grandphoenix meant Animate Dead / Create Undead (which, by the way, could also be cast by non-vampire clerics).

[dancrilis]

Leading to the slightly rewritten question, what would (specifically) vampire clerics do with Raise Dead (that other clerics cannot)?

Without knowing what other people might have meant when they started I will take a stab at this.

Regular clerics could do this yes - but the clerics of Hel might be happier to raise the dishonoured dead (the actual dishonourable dishonoured ones I mean), thereby Hel might acquire living worshippers which can thereby be controlled without magic and can be thought to serve there undead masters better than lesser undead creatures - and once someone if powerful enough - get them a promotion to vampire (wight, Lich ... etc) further swelling Hel's hold on the world.

[Peelee]

I believe that either grandphoenix meant, by Raise Dead, the unspecified spell that Mallack used to accelerate Durkon's vampirization, or that grandphoenix meant Animate Dead / Create Undead (which, by the way, could also be cast by non-vampire clerics).
Indeed; I have assumed that grandphoenix confused Raise Dead with Malak's Instant Vampire spell. My initial response was intended as a prod to either allow him to respond with his rationale in the event I was wrong, or to give an opportunity to look into Raise Dead and what it can and cannot do, in the event I was right.

Without knowing what other people might have meant when they started I will take a stab at this.

Regular clerics could do this yes - but the clerics of Hel might be happier to raise the dishonoured dead (the actual dishonourable dishonoured ones I mean), thereby Hel might acquire living worshippers which can thereby be controlled without magic and can be thought to serve there undead masters better than lesser undead creatures - and once someone if powerful enough - get them a promotion to vampire (wight, Lich ... etc) further swelling Hel's hold on the world.

That is a decent enough argument. But if the dishonoured dead (and let's assume dwarves specifically, since those are the ones that we know the 'dishonourable death' definitely applies to) are then brought back to life, they then have another chance to die an honourable death, thus getting into the originally sought afterlife. They still wouldn't have very much reason to willingly worship Hel.

[RagingHalfling]

That spell is not raise dead. This is raise dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)

There are different versions of it. So that's not the only one.

[Peelee]

There are different versions of it. So that's not the only one.

True enough. That is the 3.5 version, though - which the comic is based on. That's like saying "there are different versions of AC." While true, it's not exactly a sound basis to expect THACO to suddenly take precedence in the final battle.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It does seem like something bad will happen when Durkon returns to the Dwarven Lands. As for what that is, really only Hel and her High Priest can say.

[Quild]

You can bring death and destruction without wiping someplace off the map. It clearly points towards actual destruction and death, not metaphorically bringing the domains of death and destruction into dwarven lands. For starters, that would be a ridiculously pointless prophecy to give the head cleric, given how rare and important the cleric made it seem. That's something the Oracle might do, but not the head of a pantheon to his high priest.

The emphasis was on "for us all".
If this invalidate the theory that Durkon will bring those Cleric Domains to the Dwarven Lands, it implies TPK for the Dwarven Lands.

Of course, killing/destroying the HPoT and/or HPoO could be readed as Death and Destruction for all Dwarves. But then, bringing Cleric domains also works.

[Illsbane]

My theory?

Durkula will (try to) eradicate (or infect) the whole gathering of high priests (and any high-ranking attendants present), thus throwing the organized worship of the gods of the north into chaos. With the temples in chaos, Hel can spread disease with a liberal hand. If it's virulent enough, the priests might not be able to counter it as their superiors would have done - before they became part of the problem because by then, they will be Durkula's thralls, sowing Death and Destruction with both hands - and fangs.

[Keltest]

I'm going to hazard a guess that Durkon's prophecy will be subverted in some way. How, I don't know, but having a significant chunk of the dwarven lands (and thus, presumably, a large portion of the race) devastated and precariously holding on to life would be a serious downer that doesn't really mesh with the overall type of story OOTS is. Azure City was A: not the only major human population center that we are aware of and B: had a significant chunk of its citizenry evacuate. Theyre down but not out, so to speak. But a literal interpretation of Death and Destruction ends pretty bleakly for the dwarven race.

[dancrilis]

That is a decent enough argument. But if the dishonoured dead (and let's assume dwarves specifically, since those are the ones that we know the 'dishonourable death' definitely applies to) are then brought back to life, they then have another chance to die an honourable death, thus getting into the originally sought afterlife. They still wouldn't have very much reason to willingly worship Hel.

Well it was the dishonourable dishonoured dead I was meaning i.e those likely of an evil bent and likely to blame the gods that let Hel get them than any internal review on matters. Hel in the afterlife is allowing them out, offering them power and a better place when next they die ... it might be a selling argument for a lot of dwarves (or it could backfire spectacularly). But for justifying someone else mentioning Raise Dead for vampire clerics I think it fits alright (though I suspect not the actual plan of Hel in any way shape or form).

[Ornithologist]

I feel that the HpoH (Which I have to read aloud as Hippo), would make a tactical error by attacking a large group of very high level clerics. Its basicly Superman going to fight the whole Legion of Doom when they have made their base out of Krytonite.

I'm under the impression that Hel get some sort of major benefit by the Vampire being there at all.

Though as I think about it, maybe HpoH is going to kill them all while they're praying to their gods in the morning.

[littlebum2002]

Can you really just teach clerics domain spell lists?
Isn't the most viable way to do that is to convert them to Hel, (or another god with those domains) and the most viable way to do that is to vamp them.
So... Double Prophecy!?

In d&d, no, you can't teach a cleric spells from your spell list. But then again you also can't create a vampire in one round, so...

(I'm not saying the prophesy meant the domains, I'm just presenting the Devil's Advocate that it is, in fact, possible)



I'm under the impression that Hel get some sort of major benefit by the Vampire being there at all.


The major benefit Hel gets is that this is literally her first high priest, ever. So she gets to attend, which normally she was not.

[D.One]

The major benefit Hel gets is that this is literally her first high priest, ever. So she gets to attend, which normally she was not.

Though I doubt this is the only benefit Hel gains, I tend to agree with this. It seems like, lacking a clergy and followers, Hel has little thing to say in the matters of the Northern Gods (see the various panels about lost disputes over souls). Just having a High Priest in the Godsmoot could be a gamechanger. As I said, however, I don't think that's the lonely (or even the most significant) benefit.

[Ornithologist]

Hels plans could be almost anything. There are so many things that HpoH could do there. Until we have more concrete ideas about the content of the moot, the possibilities are endless (and frightening).

[Aasimar]

Am I the only one who thinks an underground dwarven city would be an ideal place to turn a lot of people into vampires and basically take over?

The dwarves are ideal vampire candidates, really.

[Keltest]

Am I the only one who thinks an underground dwarven city would be an ideal place to turn a lot of people into vampires and basically take over?

The dwarves are ideal vampire candidates, really.

Youre not the only one, but unless his staff has a lot of charges of the spell that raises vampires instantly, or he learned it himself, He's going to run into some problems pretty quick. It takes 3 days for a vampire to rise, and until that starts happening Durkon is on his own in a city full of people who would quickly become aware of vampire attacks.

[SirKazum]

Youre not the only one, but unless his staff has a lot of charges of the spell that raises vampires instantly, or he learned it himself, He's going to run into some problems pretty quick. It takes 3 days for a vampire to rise, and until that starts happening Durkon is on his own in a city full of people who would quickly become aware of vampire attacks.

Doesn't mean he has to do it all at once, though. Converting those dwarves one at a time, slowly enough to stay under the radar (or at least successfully evade vampire hunters) might take a long time, but that's trivial to a vampire. There's still the matter of the time limit imposed by the quest, but Durkula's plans may involve simply ditching the OOTS to dedicate himself to Project Dwarfsylvania and leave the world-saving for someone else who cares (like, for instance, someone not Evil). The idea being that Evil characters like Durkula tend to be self-serving, and, even in cases such as Team Evil and the Snarl, which threaten everybody in the world (including said Evil characters themselves), they might not want to get their asses on the line unless absolutely necessary.

[Keltest]

Doesn't mean he has to do it all at once, though. Converting those dwarves one at a time, slowly enough to stay under the radar (or at least successfully evade vampire hunters) might take a long time, but that's trivial to a vampire. There's still the matter of the time limit imposed by the quest, but Durkula's plans may involve simply ditching the OOTS to dedicate himself to Project Dwarfsylvania and leave the world-saving for someone else who cares (like, for instance, someone not Evil). The idea being that Evil characters like Durkula tend to be self-serving, and, even in cases such as Team Evil and the Snarl, which threaten everybody in the world (including said Evil characters themselves), they might not want to get their asses on the line unless absolutely necessary.

The thing is, the Order doesn't have a long time, and as soon as Durkon fabricates a reason to stay behind, that's going to raise some eyebrows given that his stated reason for journeying with the Order at all is because he things that saving the world is top priority. The HPoH might not actually care, or he might not want to participate, but he has already claimed he wants to, and going back on that would be EXTREMELY out of character for the compulsively lawful Durkon.

[SirKazum]

The thing is, the Order doesn't have a long time, and as soon as Durkon fabricates a reason to stay behind, that's going to raise some eyebrows given that his stated reason for journeying with the Order at all is because he things that saving the world is top priority. The HPoH might not actually care, or he might not want to participate, but he has already claimed he wants to, and going back on that would be EXTREMELY out of character for the compulsively lawful Durkon.

What you said, I believe, is true; however, the arrogant and impatient HPoH might possibly fail to see that. He might assume that, once he gets the Order to bring him where he wants to be (and not kill him in the process), he has no more reason to maintain their trust, and might just say something like "screw you guys, I'm Evil now" or whatever and trust their urgent mission to make them go away and leave him alone. Which I don't believe would work, of course - the Gate/Snarl/Xykon etc. notwithstanding, Durkon is just too important to the OOTS (and especially to Roy) to be left behind like that, due to bonds of friendship that "that glorified mosquito" may fail to fully appreciate. Which might be actually how this whole conflict gets resolved.

[Peelee]

I remain doubtful that Hel's plan involves "don't worry about sabotaging the people trying to stop unleashing the creature that can potentially kill me."

[theasl]

I remain doubtful that Hel's plan involves "don't worry about sabotaging the people trying to stop unleashing the creature that can potentially kill me."

Which assumes that she knows about it. In fact, this might be why she wants Durkula to go to the godsmoot - she wants to know what the other gods are so worked up about and if she can take advantage of it somehow.

[Peelee]

Which assumes that she knows about it. In fact, this might be why she wants Durkula to go to the godsmoot - she wants to know what the other gods are so worked up about and if she can take advantage of it somehow.

Even if she doesn't know The Plan, she presumable knows of the Snarl and its capabilities, and through the vampire (which can freely access Durkon's memories), she presumably knows that there is a crazy lich that's trying to control the Snarl.

If I was immortal, but there was a specific gun what could kill me, I wouldn't much care who's holding the gun.

[Jasdoif]

I remain doubtful that Hel's plan involves "don't worry about sabotaging the people trying to stop unleashing the creature that can potentially kill me."It's possible. Offhand, I can think of a few scenarios:

Whatever Hel intends to do with the high priests will give her the ability to stop Xykon better than she feels the OOTS is capable of on their own.
Hel knows something about the Snarl that we (and the Dark One, and Redcloak) don't, rendering the Plan a failure before it began.
Hel is actively supporting the Plan, since she and the Dark One have common enemies.
Hel doesn't see a threat from the Plan, on the basis that she has no position to offer concessions to the Dark One in the first place so she makes no sense as a target.
Hel deems the risk of the Snarl being released acceptable, since Thor actively antagonized it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) making himself a higher priority target than she is.

[Ornithologist]

It's possible. Offhand, I can think of a few scenarios:

Whatever Hel intends to do with the high priests will give her the ability to stop Xykon better than she feels the OOTS is capable of on their own.
Hel knows something about the Snarl that we (and the Dark One, and Redcloak) don't, rendering the Plan a failure before it began.
Hel is actively supporting the Plan, since she and the Dark One have common enemies.
Hel doesn't see a threat from the Plan, on the basis that she has no position to offer concessions to the Dark One in the first place so she makes no sense as a target.
Hel deems the risk of the Snarl being released acceptable, since Thor actively antagonized it making himself a higher priority target than she is.

You forgot:

Hel doesn't know the plan, because The Dark One doesn't trust anyone else with the information, and probably views Hel as no better or worse than the rest of the Norse North Pantheon.

The only 2 Dieties that we know to have shown friendship to the Dark One are Loki and Tiamat.

[SirKazum]

I remain doubtful that Hel's plan involves "don't worry about sabotaging the people trying to stop unleashing the creature that can potentially kill me."

Who said anything about sabotage? Durkula's (presumed) plans and the OOTS's quests are on entirely separate tracks. (Disregarding matters of loyalty, which the HPoH may not fully comprehend or appreciate their importance.) Ditching the OOTS doesn't have to be the same as sabotaging them. Especially if there's some high-level cleric around that can fill in Durkon's shoes to ensure the party's success. Hmm... wonder where they might find one (or several) of those? (BTW, the idea of going to the Godsmoot so there will be a replacement for Durkon when he decides to ditch the group just occurred to me right now, writing this very post :smallamused: )

[Peelee]

Who said anything about sabotage? Durkula's (presumed) plans and the OOTS's quests are on entirely separate tracks. (Disregarding matters of loyalty, which the HPoH may not fully comprehend or appreciate their importance.) Ditching the OOTS doesn't have to be the same as sabotaging them. Especially if there's some high-level cleric around that can fill in Durkon's shoes to ensure the party's success. Hmm... wonder where they might find one (or several) of those? (BTW, the idea of going to the Godsmoot so there will be a replacement for Durkon when he decides to ditch the group just occurred to me right now, writing this very post :smallamused: )

I was referring to "leaving the Order without a high-level cleric to assist in a battle with an undead foe" as sabotage. Not really sabotage in the sense that it's normally seen, but no less effective. Of course, a replacement cleric would easily shore up such a weakness, but I do not think the main party will take a new character on for the final battle, especially as a replacement for an established member.

As Jasdoif points out, there are several scenarios in which I can be wrong; I simply do not think they are as likely as my current train of thought (though some do come close).


You forgot:

Hel doesn't know the plan, because The Dark One doesn't trust anyone else with the information, and probably views Hel as no better or worse than the rest of the Norse North Pantheon.

The only 2 Dieties that we know to have shown friendship to the Dark One are Loki and Tiamat.

See my above post; it's not necessary for her to know The Plan.

[Ornithologist]

See my above post; it's not necessary for her to know The Plan.

I postulate that Hel does not know. HPOH has a bad habit of skimming details from Durkon when he should be going into details. Its just as likely that he only knows "evil lich up to no good." Also, its not common knowledge that this lich goblin combo is a holy mission of the Dark One himself. There is a good chance that the gods do not see the danger as They think the danger is limited to the mortal plane.

to quote the giant:

Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.

The point being, The snarl only destroys the plane its on (The mortal plane). Only 2 beings know that the snarl can be moved (Redcloak & TDO) (Maybe the IFCC too?). I can easily imagine that the other Deities don't know their danger, including Hel, Loki and Tiamat. And the Dark One seems the type to not share info, IMO.

[theasl]

Well, obviously Hel knows that the Snarl exists, but does she know that it's back? HPOH is her only high-enough-level-to-be-worth-anything agent on the mortal plane, and as far as I can remember, he hasn't shown any particular interest towards the Snarl or even indicated that he knows it exists. Even if the godsmoot is about the Snarl (which is likely though not confirmed), Hel probably wasn't told what it was about, so this might be a simple recon mission which is possibly (though maybe unlikely) unrelated to her master plan she alluded to in HPOH's reveal.

[rodneyAnonymous]

[HPoH hasn't] indicated that he knows it exists.

Yes it has, it said to Roy "World's still at stake, ain't it? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)" Also, the vampire must know the Snarl exists, since it has access to Durkon's memories and that's the whole point of this adventuring party. It couldn't make a convincing impersonation to the rest of the Order without knowing about the mission, that'd be among the first "questions" it "asked", probably even before knowing the other members' names.

[Peelee]

I postulate that Hel does not know. HPOH has a bad habit of skimming details from Durkon when he should be going into details. Its just as likely that he only knows "evil lich up to no good." Also, its not common knowledge that this lich goblin combo is a holy mission of the Dark One himself. There is a good chance that the gods do not see the danger as They think the danger is limited to the mortal plane.

to quote the giant:


The point being, The snarl only destroys the plane its on (The mortal plane). Only 2 beings know that the snarl can be moved (Redcloak & TDO) (Maybe the IFCC too?). I can easily imagine that the other Deities don't know their danger, including Hel, Loki and Tiamat. And the Dark One seems the type to not share info, IMO.

First, your argument hinges on the assumption that the vampire skimmed over details like the main mission the entire team is working on. That seems like the easiest possible way to get caught pretty quickly. Second, you assume the Snarl can only attack the plane its on. The first world was destroyed by the Snarl, and then the gods. It can (from the limited information we are given) attack across planes. Redcloak admits that the worst case scenario is that he (along with all creation) will be unmade. This lends further credence to the "not restricted to plane" ability. And my money says the Godsmoot is directly related to the Snarl nearly being swt loose.

[SirKazum]

First, your argument hinges on the assumption that the vampire skimmed over details like the main mission the entire team is working on. That seems like the easiest possible way to get caught pretty quickly. Second, you assume the Snarl can only attack the plane its on. The first world was destroyed by the Snarl, and then the gods. It can (from the limited information we are given) attack across planes. Redcloak admits that the worst case scenario is that he (along with all creation) will be unmade. This lends further credence to the "not restricted to plane" ability. And my money says the Godsmoot is directly related to the Snarl nearly being swt loose.

Yeah... if there's anyone I do not see downplaying the Snarl's threat, it's the "old gods", like Hel. Unless they know something we don't - those old gods are the only ones who really know the whole story (since the existence of Riftworld casts some doubt on the Crayons of Time story).

[theasl]

Yes it has, it said to Roy "World's still at stake, ain't it? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)" Also, the vampire must know the Snarl exists, since it has access to Durkon's memories and that's the whole point of this adventuring party. It couldn't make a convincing impersonation to the rest of the Order without knowing about the mission, that'd be among the first "questions" it "asked", probably even before knowing the other members' names.

Ah, right, I forgot that HPOH existed that far back...
I guess so.

[hroþila]

Second, you assume the Snarl can only attack the plane its on. The first world was destroyed by the Snarl, and then the gods. It can (from the limited information we are given) attack across planes. Redcloak admits that the worst case scenario is that he (along with all creation) will be unmade. This lends further credence to the "not restricted to plane" ability. And my money says the Godsmoot is directly related to the Snarl nearly being swt loose.
I think the Snarl can't shift between planes. That's how the gods survived its onslaught - by hiding in their Outer Plane homes. Furthermore, the Dark One's control over his secret weapon is greatly diminished if the Snarl can attack in another plane instead of wherever the gate is pointed at. Maybe it can attack across planes after all (maybe the Dark One wouldn't have that much control over where it struck, and maybe the gods were just hiding and hoping for the best, without being safe from the Snarl in their home planes), but right now I don't see any compelling reason to think so. In my opinion, it's more likely that the Eastern Gods (and everyone else) were hanging out in the newly created world when the Snarl struck.

[Ornithologist]

First, your argument hinges on the assumption that the vampire skimmed over details like the main mission the entire team is working on. That seems like the easiest possible way to get caught pretty quickly. Second, you assume the Snarl can only attack the plane its on. The first world was destroyed by the Snarl, and then the gods. It can (from the limited information we are given) attack across planes. Redcloak admits that the worst case scenario is that he (along with all creation) will be unmade. This lends further credence to the "not restricted to plane" ability. And my money says the Godsmoot is directly related to the Snarl nearly being swt loose.

There are multiple questions about this issue we need to address.

1. What does Durkon know about the Snarl/Gates?
2. What does Durkon know about the Plan?
3. how did the Gods survive the Snarl the first time?
4. Can the Snarl move between planes?
5. Was the first world actually destroyed/what is the snarl?


So as the above:

1. Durkon has incredibly limited information about the snarl. He knows an evil Lich wants to do something to a gate to do something to a possible god eating abomination maybe living in it. Maybe the lich wants to control the Snarl? He knows that a Rift doesn't work for them. He knows there is an ocean in one.

2. He knows nothing of the Plan. as I pointed out earlier Only Redcloak and TDO know what the plan means. Xykon thinks it will give him control, but is smart enough to not tell the heros he meets about it.

3. The gods survived last time because they hid in the Outer Planes.

4. This one is a big moment of contention. I personally think it can only move in the plane that the gates/rifts themselves sit in now. That would explain why the Plan is to move a gate to another plane. Its not clear weather or not the snarl could origonally (though probably), but I am sure that as long as the world exists it cannot leave the mortal plane now.

5. As I think the inner world is actually the 1st world, with no one on it. Also, I am under the impression that the Snarl is acutally that whole world (Unicron style). If the snarl is literally the threads of reality tangled together, those same threads were also used to make the 1st world.



I guess the point/TLDR: There is quite a bit going on, and I am under the impression that Hel does not know that the snarl is a threat currently, and is directing the HPOH accordingly.

[Peelee]

There are multiple questions about this issue we need to address.

1. What does Durkon know about the Snarl/Gates?
2. What does Durkon know about the Plan?
3. how did the Gods survive the Snarl the first time?
4. Can the Snarl move between planes?
5. Was the first world actually destroyed/what is the snarl?


So as the above:

1. Durkon has incredibly limited information about the snarl. He knows an evil Lich wants to do something to a gate to do something to a possible god eating abomination maybe living in it. Maybe the lich wants to control the Snarl? He knows that a Rift doesn't work for them. He knows there is an ocean in one.

2. He knows nothing of the Plan. as I pointed out earlier Only Redcloak and TDO know what the plan means. Xykon thinks it will give him control, but is smart enough to not tell the heros he meets about it.

3. The gods survived last time because they hid in the Outer Planes.

4. This one is a big moment of contention. I personally think it can only move in the plane that the gates/rifts themselves sit in now. That would explain why the Plan is to move a gate to another plane. Its not clear weather or not the snarl could origonally (though probably), but I am sure that as long as the world exists it cannot leave the mortal plane now.

5. As I think the inner world is actually the 1st world, with no one on it. Also, I am under the impression that the Snarl is acutally that whole world (Unicron style). If the snarl is literally the threads of reality tangled together, those same threads were also used to make the 1st world.



I guess the point/TLDR: There is quite a bit going on, and I am under the impression that Hel does not know that the snarl is a threat currently, and is directing the HPOH accordingly.

1.) It doesn't matter how much Durkon knows about the Snarl, just that he knows it exists, and that someone is trying to control it.

2.) Irrelevant; see above.

3.) Yes. They hid in the Outer Planes. Hoping the Snarl wouldn't find them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html). That seems less "the Snarl can't travel between planes" and more "it totally can, the gods were just able to hide long enough to do something about it."

4.) See above. Not definitive, but sure as hell looks like it's leaning more in the direction of can than cannot.

5.) We do not yet have sufficient knowledge to answer this.

[Ornithologist]

We don't know what Hel thinks of the snarl. We also know that Thor thinks its safe enough to metaphorically kick the cage.

We have no evidence either way of the snarls current ability to travel. We know it had the ability at one point. But it is currently trapped in a demiplane prison from which It cannot leave. It can go through holes into the adjacent prison, but it cannot seem to go farther than that.

Take this example asa the way I see it:

Imagine a jail cell, with bars wide enough to stick your arm through. Now, you can reach anyone who comes close enough for you to touch, but you can't say go accross the street and beat up the judge & jury who put you in there.

But some thing happens, and suddenly one particular magic gap in the bars passes directly through to the cort room.

Now, the prisoner can get to the tasty, tasty gods court staff.

I imagine Hel isn't concerned, because some guard getting the prisoner to beat up another guard isnt important. She doesn't know about the posibility about the change in location, and can probably assume that she is safe.

Controling the snarl is one thing, moving it is a different thing entirely.

edit: Isn't this conversation spirited!

[Peelee]

We don't know what Hel thinks of the snarl. We also know that Thor thinks its safe enough to metaphorically kick the cage.

We have no evidence either way of the snarls current ability to travel. We know it had the ability at one point. But it is currently trapped in a demiplane prison from which It cannot leave. It can go through holes into the adjacent prison, but it cannot seem to go farther than that.

Take this example asa the way I see it:

Imagine a jail cell, with bars wide enough to stick your arm through. Now, you can reach anyone who comes close enough for you to touch, but you can't say go accross the street and beat up the judge & jury who put you in there.

But some thing happens, and suddenly one particular magic gap in the bars passes directly through to the cort room.

Now, the prisoner can get to the tasty, tasty gods court staff.

I imagine Hel isn't concerned, because some guard getting the prisoner to beat up another guard isnt important. She doesn't know about the posibility about the change in location, and can probably assume that she is safe.

Controling the snarl is one thing, moving it is a different thing entirely.

edit: Isn't this conversation spirited!
I see your point, but the last metaphorical bar is about to be gone. That's what my line of thinking is based on.

[Ornithologist]

My impression is also that the destruction of the wolrd is required for the snarl to be truly released. The destruction of the gates just makes it likley that the gods will decide to destroy the world to redo the prison. i.e. bigger holes, but still containable, unless the gods decide to start over.

[Illsbane]

The only 2 Dieties that we know to have shown friendship to the Dark One are Loki and Tiamat.

Don't forget Rat!

[Ornithologist]

I did forget about the rat.

Though we do know now that the HPoH's goal involves "Hel finally getting her due"

I feel this narrows things down a bit for us.