[3.5] Any good PrC's that would inprove my build?

[ShadowfireOmega]

Started a campaign recently and decided to do something I have always wanted, a spiked chain tripper with eventual whirlwind attack. I know a lot of people naysay on whirlwind because of the number of feats needed, but I have found mobility awesome as I set up for AoO trips I have had a few opportunities where spring attack would have come in handy. So that being said, here is my build so far:

Abilities: Str-16;Dex-13;Con-14;Int-13;Wis-13;Cha-7
Skill Ranks: Climb-6; Handle Animal-6; Intimidate-6; Ride-6;
Flaw: Murky Eyed
Feats
Combat Expertise (Human Bonus Feat)
Dodge (Level 1 Feat)
Power Attack (Fighter 1 Feat)
Improved Trip (Flaw Feat)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Spiked Chain] (Fighter 2 Feat)
Mobility (Level 3 Feat)

Future Feats
Fighter 4th- Spring Attack
Level 6 Feat- Whirlwind Attack
Fighter 6th- Cleave

Now here my future build stops, I may want great cleave in the future, but as it is now I rarely drop two enemies in two rounds, let alone in one. So at level 7 I would like to jump into some PrC to spice thing up, otherwise I'm probably going something like Great Cleave-Weapon Focus-Weapon Spec.-G.Weapon Focus-G.Weapon Spec-Improved Disarm and so on.

Any suggestions? If possible I'd like to be able to increase the range of my reach (either stackable w/pots of enlarge or just better than them) and keep my trip relevant as time goes on and we fight bigger things that would be out of normal trip range for me. I don't care much for heavy damage dealing, just the ability to pin things down for our rouge to sneak attack while the wizard does her thing.

[Telonius]

What sources are available? If Psionics is available, a few levels of Psychic Warrior can help you out with Expansion. The Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat is also great for lockdown builds, especially Spiked Chain. (It's listed under the Psionic feats, but you don't have to be Psionic to take it; it's a [General] feat).

Might be overly obvious, but Combat Reflexes is really something you should have, if you're going to be threatening a large part of the battlefield.

The Mage Slayer line of feats is probably going to be your friend, as well.

[WhamBamSam]

What sources are available? If Psionics is available, a few levels of Psychic Warrior can help you out with Expansion. The Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat is also great for lockdown builds, especially Spiked Chain. (It's listed under the Psionic feats, but you don't have to be Psionic to take it; it's a [General] feat).

Might be overly obvious, but Combat Reflexes is really something you should have, if you're going to be threatening a large part of the battlefield.

The Mage Slayer line of feats is probably going to be your friend, as well.I was going to recommend PsyWar as well, especially as the OP was asking about PrCs, and Psionic Weapon Master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is a pretty good one for this sort of thing.

[nedz]

Switch to Cleric, and grab the Strength domain for Enlarge Person.
With the Spontaneous Domain Casting (PHB 2 p37) ACF you can do this multiple times per day.
Add in Practised Spellcaster, obviously.

[ComaVision]

My first thought was also PsyWar but your wisdom is eh. I think you should stop Fighter after 4 levels, and switch to Crusader or Warblade. The maneuvers will give you some versatility and keep you full BaB. You could check out the prestige classes in Tome of Battle as well.

If you dipped Cleric and went in to Ruby Knight Vindicator you could start buffing yourself with Enlarge Person while keeping better BaB than PsyWar.

[Darrin]

If you had darkvision...

Cavestalker 4 (DotU) lets you wield a spiked chain in one hand. Add the Uncanny Blow stunt from Exotic Weapon Master for two-handed PA damage, then maybe finish off with Tempest (which I don't particularly care for, but if you're going to finish off the Spring Attack line, might as well).

[ShadowfireOmega]

What sources are available? If Psionics is available, a few levels of Psychic Warrior can help you out with Expansion. The Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) feat is also great for lockdown builds, especially Spiked Chain. (It's listed under the Psionic feats, but you don't have to be Psionic to take it; it's a [General] feat).

Might be overly obvious, but Combat Reflexes is really something you should have, if you're going to be threatening a large part of the battlefield.

The Mage Slayer line of feats is probably going to be your friend, as well.


I was going to recommend PsyWar as well, especially as the OP was asking about PrCs, and Psionic Weapon Master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is a pretty good one for this sort of thing.

At this point I don't this this would be wise, my wisdom is not optimal as Coma Vision pointed out, and my improved trip gives me the ability to make them prone and get an extra attack on them during any attack, even AoO's, so stand still isn't that great at the moment. I also believe my DM doesn't like the psionic books :S. As for combat expertise, I would only get one extra AoO and I don't plan on upping my Dex any time soon (close to low wealth world so I would prioritize my Str over Dex.).


Switch to Cleric, and grab the Strength domain for Enlarge Person.
With the Spontaneous Domain Casting (PHB 2 p37) ACF you can do this multiple times per day.
Add in Practised Spellcaster, obviously.

Eh, potions only cost 50g per and our wizard will be able to cast it if I don't have any, we'll have a cleric soon for other buffs as well, and this confers no proper respite for the dip in BAB and loss/stall of a bonus feat.


My first thought was also PsyWar but your wisdom is eh. I think you should stop Fighter after 4 levels, and switch to Crusader or Warblade. The maneuvers will give you some versatility and keep you full BaB. You could check out the prestige classes in Tome of Battle as well.

If you dipped Cleric and went in to Ruby Knight Vindicator you could start buffing yourself with Enlarge Person while keeping better BaB than PsyWar.

I've never gotten too into the tome of battle, but I'll give this a look, thanks!


If you had darkvision...

Cavestalker 4 (DotU) lets you wield a spiked chain in one hand. Add the Uncanny Blow stunt from Exotic Weapon Master for two-handed PA damage, then maybe finish off with Tempest (which I don't particularly care for, but if you're going to finish off the Spring Attack line, might as well).

Don't know how I would get darkvision as a human fighter, but I will keep the exotic weapon master in mind, the exotic trip +2 bonus will help out a bit.

[Telonius]

Incarnum can help as well. Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets or Sphinx Claws will help you out on Strength checks for trip. They're even different bonus types (Competence and Morale) and chakra slots, so you could get them both on at the same time. Round it out with Cobalt Expertise (for an Insight bonus, so it also stacks).

[Ellowryn]

Seconding Crusader. Even if you only grab one level, do it at character level 8, which gives you 3rd level stances/maneuvers including the awesome Thicket of Blades stance (arguably everything provokes AoO's from you, even trying to tumble), Defensive Rebuke, and other nice utility strikes like Mountain Hammer. it is unfortunate that you cannot put more into Dex as your build revolves around AoO's and control rather than doing damage. This is not a bad thing, its why such builds are so good, but you shouldn't worry about actually hurting things and just worry about making sure they are stuck on the ground.

Also, standstill is nice for when you target things you literally cannot trip such as flying creatures or those with multiple/no legs. Do note that even if you prioritize Str most monsters will far outscale you in that as you gain levels, but such monsters usually have very poor reflex saves.

[ShadowfireOmega]

Incarnum can help as well. Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets or Sphinx Claws will help you out on Strength checks for trip. They're even different bonus types (Competence and Morale) and chakra slots, so you could get them both on at the same time. Round it out with Cobalt Expertise (for an Insight bonus, so it also stacks).

Hmmm... I'm thinking about taking Shape Soulmeld: Mauling gauntlets because 1 essentia=+2 bonus and it stacks with enhancement bonuses given by gauntlets/belts of strength. Then I can dip into Totemist two level for access to Sphinx Claws and some essentia. Cobalt isn't really good for me because it only gives bonus to the attack, not the strength check, the attack is touch so I should have no problems with that (normally). Bonus essentia will give 2 essentia so I'll have 4 total soulmelds and four total essentia, which should do me good, I'll even have a chakra bind available if I want to use it, and a totem. This seems good, and I only take a 1 BAB hit and push feats back at most two levels, good trade. Now to see if the DM is good with it!

Mauling Gauntlets;Sphinx Claws;Threefold Mask of the Chimera; and Wormtail Belt would be four good ones. 11 total bonus to my strength checks starting at level 12 if I shape MG to totem (9 from 6 till 12), not subject to flanking and a +2 AC is pretty damn good for two feats and two class levels!


Seconding Crusader. Even if you only grab one level, do it at character level 8, which gives you 3rd level stances/maneuvers including the awesome Thicket of Blades stance (arguably everything provokes AoO's from you, even trying to tumble), Defensive Rebuke, and other nice utility strikes like Mountain Hammer. it is unfortunate that you cannot put more into Dex as your build revolves around AoO's and control rather than doing damage. This is not a bad thing, its why such builds are so good, but you shouldn't worry about actually hurting things and just worry about making sure they are stuck on the ground.

Also, standstill is nice for when you target things you literally cannot trip such as flying creatures or those with multiple/no legs. Do note that even if you prioritize Str most monsters will far outscale you in that as you gain levels, but such monsters usually have very poor reflex saves.

My DM has a rule for flying creatures and trip, as long as the weapon is of the sort to wrap around rather than hook (spiked chain vs Guisarme for instance) I can make a trip attempt to slam them to the ground by wrapping around flying appendages (if they don't have those, well I can't :p), but other than that I see your point about standstill.

I also do not meet the alignment requirement at this point for the crusader, and I don't see myself doing so unless something big happens in the campaign to turn me toward the dark side. I'm currently LN and I've played a few LG's before and am bored with being 'pure good'. Anyway, I would need to take much more levels than one to get the 3rd level stances/maneuvers, your max level in each is determined by your martial adept levels (Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade).

Also with Incarnum I could pretty much match their strength in trip attacks as such:
Mauling Gauntlets gives a base 2 to strength checks, if I put it on a totem as a second level totemist, at character level 6 I can put 4 essentia into it via expanded soulmeld capacity, this gives a total of +10 to strength checks.
Sphinx Claws will add an additional 1 to the check, improved trip adds another 4, so as it stands this bonus is +15, by level six I should have 20 strength (via items/potions/spells if need be) so the bonus is +20 total. Next I drink my enlarge person to get a +4 from large size and +1 from 2 additional strength, and at level 6 my total (given the right feats, but this will in reality be round level 10) bonus will be 25. My effective strength score from that bonus will be 60 (double bonus, add 10). Now that is without finding a way to increase my size further to take down larger monsters, each additional size would be an effective +10 to my strength when it comes to trip attacks (+5 bonus), If I somehow managed gargantuan (so I could trip colossal) my effective Str would be 80 VS a great wyrm golden dragons 86*. By the time I fight that I hope I will have some sort of bonus giving me an addition 6 effective strength :D

Anything is possible with enough cheese!


*math on that is a 47 is effectively a 46, which is an 18. Adding +20 bonus (16 from size bonus, 4 from more than 2 leg bonus) makes it a +36 bonus, 36*2+10=86.

[Ellowryn]

Crusaders can be of just about any alignment except true neutral, so no worries there, they just tend to fluffwise follow one of the extremes (LN, CN, NG, and NE). And you gain 1/2 an initiator level for any non-initiator class you take.

For example, if you have 4 levels of Fighter, 2 of Ranger, and 3 of say psion (for whatever reason), and then gained a level of swordsage you would have an Initiator level of 5 (4 1/2 for non-initiator levels +1 for Swordsage) allowing you access to 3rd level maneuvers.

[Troacctid]

Remember that Combat Reflexes isn't just important for making extra opportunity attacks--it also lets you make them while you're flat-footed, which is a pretty big deal. You don't want to lose initiative and then have your enemy walk right past you in the first round, completely ignoring your threat range.

If psionics are allowed, I like War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm). It gives you more power points than Psychic Warrior, so your low Wisdom doesn't hurt so much; it's full BAB instead of 3/4; it gives you some nice buffs that can be activated as a free action; and it lets you target two adjacent creatures with every melee attack you make, which is pretty sweet.

[eggynack]

Eh, potions only cost 50g per and our wizard will be able to cast it if I don't have any, we'll have a cleric soon for other buffs as well, and this confers no proper respite for the dip in BAB and loss/stall of a bonus feat.

Oh, it definitely provides a lot of stuff back in exchange for those losses. Pick up complete champion, and you gain the ability to swap out domains for devotion feats. Use cloistered cleric instead of normal cleric, and you get knowledge domain for free which you can swap for knowledge devotion, and then with some minor skill point investment you can get bonuses that largely cover the losses, maybe and then some. Then, with your second domain, you can pick up animal or law devotion, getting yet another bonus, one that's more powerful yet more temporary. Then, finally, you have your last domain, and you can use that for strength if you want, or you can pick up travel, for free movement, or magic, for wand use, or anything really. And that's all on top of standard cleric spell stuff. Cleric dips are sweet.

[ShadowfireOmega]

Thanks guys for all the suggestions! I've decided to defiantly dip two levels and three feats into Magic of Incarnum if my DM allows, I edited my previous post and while I was fact checking a few people posted. So to answer those posts:

*On crusader* That does sound interesting, I may look into it on a future character.

*On warmind* I may dip into this as well, if only for access to expand (to get to huge size eventually), if I can convince my DM to allow it of course.

*On cleric* That is a lot of stuff to remember, I may one day read into it, but for this character I don't think cleric is a good fit anyway.

and a TL;DR of my post edit:

If I do it right I can keep up my strength to match monsters all the way up to Great Wyrm Golden Dragons if I manage an effective size of gargantuan.

So as of now my build plan is:

4th Level: Fighter;Spring Attack;+1 Str
5th Level: Fighter
6th Level: Fighter;Shape Soulmeld [Mauling Gauntlets]
7th Level: Totemist
8th Level: Totemist
9th Level: ?; Bonus Essentia
10th Level: ?
11th Level: ?
12th Level: ?; Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

Edit: realized that you cannot put Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld onto the totem... so it may not be as powerful as fast, but meh, it should scale fine. This is unless he agrees to allow me to put it on there >.>

[Saintheart]

Don't know how I would get darkvision as a human fighter, but I will keep the exotic weapon master in mind, the exotic trip +2 bonus will help out a bit.

Some methods for it are here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98063-feats-that-grant-darkvision) Depending on how lenient your DM is, I rather like Tippy's solution best: scroll of darkvision plus a scroll of permanency.

[ShadowfireOmega]

He's not that lenient, I'm sure he'd see that as magical and not natural as the class requires :smallannoyed: But I'll take a look, I'm a bit passed the point of needing it, but it's always good to know how to get things.

[Troacctid]

You could use a soulmeld, Basilisk Mask, to gain darkvision. Alternately, just carry a light source.