[PF] Finding Haleen : OP trait ?

[Zubrowka74]

Finding your kin

Choose: an NPC and a class.

Benefit: The chosen class is always a favored class to you, and your dedication to it is such that every time you take a level in the class, you gain +1 hit point and 1 additional skill point over and above what you would normally gain. If multiple PCs take this trait, they should be siblings who were both protected and raised by the chosen NPC.

I know this is a campaing trait but if all material is allowed this is serious business. Having two favored class alone is enough, it's the equivalent of one of the best half-elven class feature. But +1 hp AND skills ? It's one per level if you don't multiclass... I'd make this a feat and give +1 hp OR skill.

Imagine : Human Barbarian level one. This trait plus Tireless (PFS Faction trait), which gives +1 hp at level one. Two times the toughness feat. Assuming 18 CON that's 12 +2 +1 +3 +3 +4 = 25 hp at level one. I'm sure there's other ways to boost hp. Now try it with Scarred Witch-doctor, one SAD caster...

Or take a class|race combo with yummy favored class bonus, say human sorc. You get the benefit of +1 spell known per level AND you still get the +1 hp and skillpoints... And all this for a measly trait.

[Forrestfire]

I'd say it's strong, but not necessarily overpowered. The strongest traits in the game are the ones that give abilities that would otherwise be inaccessible. This is just... More versatility (always a plus, in my book, especially with skill points on otherwise starved characters), and slightly more HP (but not a huge amount, and higher HP totals on the PC side makes for better combats anyway). In a fight, any of the +2 initiative traits are going to be stronger, the metamagic reducer traits are going to be stronger, Defensive Strategist is going to be stronger (I'm of the opinion that Strategist is the strongest trait in the game outside possibly Dusk Agent with a RAW reading). This one's good, but not the best, and probably in line with what traits should be, in my opinion.

[Yanisa]

Except being a campaign trait and already hard to get past any DM. The trait comes from Legacy of Fire, which was printed during the 3.5 run of pathfinder. I believe the favored class rule didn't exist at that point so you cannot really compare this trait to the current state of pathfinder. Things have changed a lot since then.

Still you can do funny things with it. Try out a Synthesist summoner, they can start with 20 HP before any traits, feats or favored class bonuses. :smalltongue:

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, it's strong. No, it's not overpowering.

Also, it should probably be read as replacing (instead of stacking with) the normal favored class bonus, because it was written before the existence of the favored class rule.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, it's strong. No, it's not overpowering.

Also, it should probably be read as replacing (instead of stacking with) the normal favored class bonus, because it was written before the existence of the favored class rule.

It seems like it pretty unambiguously stacks, since it gives 'above what you would normally gain'.

[grarrrg]

Also, it should probably be read as replacing (instead of stacking with) the normal favored class bonus, because it was written before the existence of the favored class rule.

^ This ^
Well, mostly this.
Back when all you could get was an HP or a Skill Point it wasn't that huge a deal.
And since it was published in a non-main book, it is NOT going to get updated/errata'd ever (there is _one_ thing that was published in a non-main book that got errata'd...and then they reprinted it without the errata....).

And the fact that it's a Campaign Trait, those can be better than other Traits due to the additional restriction.
Seriously, have you read the flavor on the trait? It comes with it's own complete backstory for you!.

[Zubrowka74]

Well, I could just start the campaign and then my character decides to not follow the hooks and go to a different campaign instead... :P

No but seriously, when all first party content is allowed it doesn't matter if it's a campaing trait. You just can have one.

Yes some traits are more usefull, namely the +2 to init (which, btw aren't OP because it's litterally half of what the feat gives you) but I maintain my impression that 2 favored class +1 hp/lvl +1 skill/lvl is a bit much for a trait, campaing or not.

[Yanisa]

No but seriously, when all first party content is allowed it doesn't matter if it's a campaing trait. You just can have one.

Except it isn't PRPG First Party. It's DnD 3.5 Third Party (or Second Party?).

[Zubrowka74]

Except it isn't PRPG First Party. It's DnD 3.5 Third Party (or Second Party?).

Second party is the player :D

But one could argue that it's included in the SRD.

[Necroticplague]

Second party is the player :D

No, that's second person perspective. Second party (in game developement) is someone who isn't the producer themselves (In this case, WOTC), but who was given whole permission and it thus affiliated with them (in this case, WOTC officially approving Paizo to publish Dragon, and use DnD trademarks in the process).

[Yanisa]

But one could argue that it's included in the SRD.

It's OGL because of the licensing of 3.5 which leads it to being on the fan-made PFSRD's. It's not on the official pathfinder PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/). :smalltongue:

And if you argue that you can get the trait in any campaign because Paizo published it. Then by that logic a lot of the Dragon magazines also become pathfinder material, that is going to lead to some weird stuff. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

S
But one could argue that it's included in the SRD.

The PFSRD is a fansite, and while it includes a lot of official PF material, it also includes some items that are not.

[Deadkitten]

Regardless of wether it is even legal, it is still technically "OP" because the strength of a trait is supposed to be equal to 1/2 a feat.

[Amphetryon]

YMMV, but it's the only Trait my PF DM has banned, to my knowledge.

[Kurald Galain]

Regardless of wether it is even legal, it is still technically "OP" because the strength of a trait is supposed to be equal to 1/2 a feat.

Sure, but is it supposed to be half of a weak feat like Acrobatic, or half of a strong feat like Power Attack?

[The Random NPC]

Regardless of wether it is even legal, it is still technically "OP" because the strength of a trait is supposed to be equal to 1/2 a feat.

I'd argue that 1 skill point and 1 HP per level is about 1/4 of a feat each. And yes, that does mean Toughness is overpriced.

[Extra Anchovies]

The clearest example of "a trait is half a feat" that I know of is the various traits that give +2 to initiative.

[grarrrg]

The clearest example of "a trait is half a feat" that I know of is the various traits that give +2 to initiative.

Reverse example:
Additional Traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) Feat gets you 2 Traits.

HP-wise, Toughness is the best example. Assuming Finding Haleen _replaces_ normal Favored Class bonus, then Finding Haleen is exactly equal to a feat.

Skill points...there is no clear example.
Skill Focus is (eventually) worth (the equivalent of) +6.
2-skill feats, such as Animal Affinity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-affinity---final), are worth +8.
The most direct, but weakest, example is Human Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/human-spirit-half-elf). Which gets you _actual_ Skill Points, but only 4 of them. And its Half-Elf only.

So Finding Haleen is definitely worth more than half a feat.

[Extra Anchovies]

Skill points...there is no clear example.

DSP has Open Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded), which is the Toughness equivalent for skill points. A human with Fast Learner, Toughness, Open Minded, and Finding Haleen can get +3 HP and +3 skill ranks per level.

[mostholycerebus]

Its OP comparatively, but i'd allow it in a group of similarly optimized characters. I like players to have skills so they can have a shot at doing different heroic things, and further define their characters. And I can always do more hit point damage. No big.

[Necroticplague]

I'm not seeing it. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like it's benefit is
1. Second favored class. Not that amazing, since I find you normally want to either stick to one class or dip into way more than two. No benefit if you stay single class.
2.+1HP/Skill Point per level of chosen class. Not horrible, but not exactly game-changing. Slight increase in hit points, or a bit more skilling.

Doesn't seem like it's OP. Seems rather appropriate for a trait, providing relatively minor bonuses to you.

[Extra Anchovies]

Its OP comparatively, but i'd allow it in a group of similarly optimized characters. I like players to have skills so they can have a shot at doing different heroic things, and further define their characters. And I can always do more hit point damage. No big.

True. It's only a quantitative increase, which is easily countered by other quantitative increases. It's the qualitative powers (e.g. grease) that are harder to deal with.


I'm not seeing it. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like it's benefit is
1. Second favored class. Not that amazing, since I find you normally want to either stick to one class or dip into way more than two. No benefit if you stay single class.
2.+1HP/Skill Point per level of chosen class. Not horrible, but not exactly game-changing. Slight increase in hit points, or a bit more skilling.

Doesn't seem like it's OP. Seems rather appropriate for a trait, providing relatively minor bonuses to you.

It's +1 HP and +1 skill point per level of chosen class, in addition to the FCB. The concern is that it's worth two feats, which puts it at four times the strength that a trait is supposed to have.

[Necroticplague]

It's +1 HP and +1 skill point per level of chosen class, in addition to the FCB. The concern is that it's worth two feats, which puts it at four times the strength that a trait is supposed to have.

Ah, so I did miss something. Thanks for pointing that out. Makes it considerably better. You bring up comparing it to feats, but I'm not sure that really means anything. I mean, is may be two feats and a racial trait (Multitalented, Toughness, Open Mind), but are those racial traits and feats worht what a normal racial trait or feat are? The problem could just as easily be 'this racial trait is horrible, and these feats aren't good'. Which, given how it's a racial trait I've always seen swapped out (either for SLAs or ability to take 10 on swimming), and two feats I've never seen anyone take, it seems like that may very well be the case.

[Spore]

It's a trait that counts as two feats. That's simply ridiculous.

[Xerlith]

They are weak feats, to be fair though.

I allowed a nerfed Finding Haleen, now it gives either an additional skill/level or HP/level. Works without a problem.
And, what's awesome for me, it gives the player(s) a great, expansive backstory idea that is a great baseline to work with.

[Spore]

They are weak feats, to be fair though.

Acrobatic is a weak feat. Dodge or Faerie Strike are weak feats. Finding Haleen provides not the best feats but surely solid choices that are universally useful (you benefit at least once per level from extra skill ranks and the extra hit point).

[Kraken]

Looking at it strictly in terms of other trait choices and ignoring comparisons to feats, it does make its way pretty darned high up on the totem pole in terms of useful traits. I would consider it reasonable to ban because of its disproportionate power to other traits, but in the scheme of things, it's not something that's going to cause a DM to need to rebalance their encounters, so it wouldn't surprise me to see other DMs allow it. Many characters who are already satisfied with the amount of skill points they have might value class skill granting traits over the hit points granted by Finding Haleen.