Core Rogue options

[Draz74]

How can I make a Core-only Rogue worthwhile in combat, without using TWF?

Are full attacks with Sneak Attack, just using a regular ol' single weapon, generally enough to make the Rogue feel like he's contributing something to the party?

Any core-only Rogue optimization tricks are appreciated. (The rogue in question is more or less headed towards Shadowdancer, if that helps. And non-evil, so Assassin is out.)

[Rahdjan]

I guess if you want to be usefull in combat without TWF the Spring Attack tree would be your next best option. Other than that, maybe go ranged.

[Bears With Lasers]

...no. Spring attack is not a good option.

[Rahdjan]

...no. Spring attack is not a good option.

Why not? Seems like it would. Move into a flanking posistion, attack and move back. It keeps enemies from doing a full attack on the squishy rogue, what am I missing?

[PinkysBrain]

3 feats down the hole just to run greater risk doing less damage than you could be doing with a ranged weapon.

[Sir Giacomo]

yep, darts and quickdraw can do the same trick (cost: 1 feat). Or better, a shortbow (no feat needed; you may wish to invest point blank shot and rapid shot for more sneak attacks inside 30ft).

- Giacomo

[Rahdjan]

...no. Spring attack is not a good option.

but with the ranged options, your not SA more than maybe the first attack unless you've got party members helping to deny dex bonus to foes.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Hide in Plain Sight.

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, at low levels, Grease can be excellent, and it's cheap enough to UMD out of a wand if you don't have a friendly party Wizard. At high levels, you just get a Ring of Blink.

Also, you can use vials of Alchemist's Fire and Acid to sneak attack with, if you prefer those to a bow.

[Draz74]

Hide in Plain Sight.

... which requires hiding every round in order to cause SA every round. Which means no full attacks.

I suppose ranged rogues with Greater Invisibility works well, as long as your opponent can't detect invisibility. Other than that, I'm not sure there's a good way to get Sneak Attack with ranged attacks consistently.

[Rahdjan]

Ok, I guess there are easy enough ways to deny dex to an oppenent.

[Matthew]

Well, once you count Two Weapon Fighting out, Two Handed Fighting is your next best option. Plenty of MAD if you follow that plan. Power Attack and Combat Expertise might eventually become useful.
Sword and Buckler / Light Shield after that.

[selfcritical]

Take the precise attack feat from dragon compendium, take power attack, two-handed fight, move to flank and power attack for everything each time.

Extra points for working just fine against constructs.

[skyclad]

Why would a rogue ever want to power attack? (except against constructs and the like, where he still wont be very useful) He needs to score as many hits as possible to get something worthwhile out of his sneak attack, trading AB for damage doesnt seem very smart.

[Ikkitosen]

Take the precise attack feat from dragon compendium, take power attack, two-handed fight, move to flank and power attack for everything each time.

Extra points for working just fine against constructs.

Not exactly Core only though.

[serow]

Rogue 16/Fighter 4
Nice boost to Fort, 3 feats, and still a good selection of rogue special abilities
:D

[EndgamerAzari]

Ok, I guess there are easy enough ways to deny dex to an oppenent.

One I use is the Master Thrower's Sneaky Shot. Beat the opponent's Spot check with your Sleight of Hand, and they lose their Dex. bonus for the round. Sneak Attack damage on every attack! Darts work great for this.

Unfortunately, that's not Core, but hey, it works good. Check Complete Warrior.

[kpenguin]

You already need combat reflexes and mobility for shadowdancer. Those feats are down the drain if your range. Spring attack is bad unless you have a high speed. TWF is bad. Especially with that moderate bab. I'd take the combat expertise feat chain. Trip, disarm, feint etc.

[Human Paragon 3]

You could take Improved Trip and the "Kick em while they're down" feat, found in the Net Book of Feats. It's not core, but it's easily accessable to your play group provied you all have the net. This feat allows you to make sneak attacks on prone opponents. The trip attacks are touch attacks, so that balances out the rogue's poor BAB, and you can then make a full attack with full sneak attacks on your prone opponent PLUS your AoO when he gets up again.

[Larrin]

Honestly, full attacks with sneak attacks are enough, they aren't as devastating as TWF will get you on a flank, but still nothing to sneeze at. And you're the rogue, if you look to melee combat to feel like you're contributing, then something is wrong with you. You are support in combat, not a tank, flanking and getting your full sneak attacks off is helping out, wether you're swing with one or two weapns. Avoiding twf will give you several benefits. 1) more feats to spend on anything you want rather then spending them to get that extra attack at -10, 2) you can use a two handed weapon to deal more damage on the rounds you only get one attack on anyway 3) You don't *have* to enter melee, you can snipe at enemies without feeling like you've wasted your build 4) you can achieve self worth from your accomplishments off the battle field

[Telonius]

Get yourself a Ring of Blinking. Every Rogue should have one, IMO. This nifty little gadget will let you attack as an invisible attacker, which has the ultimate effect of giving you Sneak Attack to pretty much anything you face - including ranged targets within 30 feet. The only bad points are that it gives your own attacks a 20% miss chance, and you have to use a move action to activate it once every seven rounds.

Take Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot to mimic TWF if you'd like extra attacks. Or, get an item of Haste.

[Draz74]

Get yourself a Ring of Blinking. Every Rogue should have one, IMO. This nifty little gadget will let you attack as an invisible attacker, which has the ultimate effect of giving you Sneak Attack to pretty much anything you face - including ranged targets within 30 feet. The only bad points are that it gives your own attacks a 20% miss chance, and you have to use a move action to activate it once every seven rounds.

Standard action every seven rounds. One other problem with it -- it only works if your opponent can't see invisible things.
Or is it only if they can see ethereal things (e.g. True Seeing)? That would make it much more worthy.
Either way ... yeah, it's a decent option to have, but not the end-all answer to Rogues' success.


Take Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot to mimic TWF if you'd like extra attacks. Or, get an item of Haste.

Item of Haste = goes without saying (unless your party is going to be casting Haste on you frequently anyway).