The best way to make my paladin fall, and become an Oathbreaker? [Archive]

VoxRationis

2015-06-08, 12:26 PM

well i have played a lot of paladins but i was looking through the DMG and there is a option for the paladin called oath breaker but you have to get your paladin to "Fall from grace" so to speak.

Notably, the oathbreaker is somewhat misnamed. The oathbreaker isn't just a paladin that falls from the code, but rather one that sees the code and runs as far as possible in the opposite direction.

Death knight 00

2015-06-08, 12:42 PM

Mara

2015-06-08, 02:25 PM

So i went to my local gaming store and joined their d&d campaign. i am playing a half elf Oath of Vengeance paladin of torm. we are in a dungeon that biased of previous encounters is full of drow. how should i do it? i have come up with a few ways but they all seem to cliche.

There is no falling. You may become an Oathbreaker (aka get badass heavy metal powers)

Soommor

2015-06-08, 02:36 PM

Torture someone. I can barely get to a level 4 Paladin before I break some rule. Torture to an extreme and degrading degree is always a good way to be frowned upon. May I suggest filleting someone's arm and then force another guy, who has been starved to near the point of death, to gnaw on the bone. I can't think of any good aligned god who's in favour of that. Remember, the more time you put into a good torture, the more likely you are to repulse everyone around you, potentially including yourself.

DanyBallon

2015-06-08, 02:47 PM

Banana Peel.

Sure, it's cliche. But that's why you never see it, these days.

Not as cliché, but definitely an epic fall (fail); tie a rope to an arrow, let it fly into a fallen suspend bridge. Walk on the rope across the chasm. Forget to tie the loose end to something... This happened in our game, the rogue who tried this was lucky enough on his dex save that he manage to get a hold on the cliff side, and got saved by his comrades. Otherwise he was good for a long and hilarious fall :smallbiggrin:

Ninja_Prawn

2015-06-08, 02:49 PM

There is no falling. You may become an Oathbreaker (aka get badass heavy metal powers)

There may not be literal 'falling' (except the 'from heights' variety), but there is a grey area between faithful and oathbreaker.

A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution... After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.

If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance... perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option

So, if you break an oath but don't seek absolution OR embrace the full-on oathbreaker option, you're somewhere in the middle. The PHB implies that you have to switch to a different class (I'd go for fighter or barbarian) in this case.

KorvinStarmast

2015-06-08, 02:53 PM

but as a vengeance paladin that could almost be looked on as the correct way for him to carry out his goul and yet he is a lawful good character. Suggest you read again the treatment of alignment in the PHB, and the DMG. Alignment isn't quite what it was.

burninatortrog

2015-06-08, 04:56 PM

He has just discovered that he is the heir of his noble house because his brother has been assassinated with what seems to be drow poison. so the obvious option is for for him to kill all the drow and show no mercy to any one even the children. but as a vengeance paladin that could almost be looked on as the correct way for him to carry out his goul and yet he is a lawful good character.

A paladin's oath isn't just about their actions. Their attitude is equally as important, if not more so. I'd say a brother's death is the perfect catalyst for the change, just have your character change his attitude and presto, Oathbreaker.

"I'm going to hunt down the drow responsible for my brother's death and deliver the justice they deserve." - Vengeance

"I'm going to slaughter every drow man, woman, and child, until there's not one left in the wretched underdark. I'll show no mercy for anyone who gets in my way." - Oathbreaker

Steampunkette

2015-06-08, 05:23 PM

Burninatortrog, you just described the Oath of Vengeance Paladin.

He would need to grant mercy to fall. Or specifically ignore the greater evil in the world.

Ninja_Prawn

2015-06-08, 05:36 PM

Burninatortrog, you just described the Oath of Vengeance Paladin.

He would need to grant mercy to fall. Or specifically ignore the greater evil in the world.

Choose sides, everyone! I'm with Steampunkette here. A Vengeance Paladin should be exterminating any Drow he sees. At least, any evil drow, and any neutral ones who get in his way / turn a blind eye. Showing mercy would be contrary to the Oath.

And of course, oaths are not alignments. Showing mercy would be fine for a LG guy. It's a nice internal conflict, really.

JNAProductions

2015-06-08, 07:02 PM

A paladin's oath isn't just about their actions. Their attitude is equally as important, if not more so. I'd say a brother's death is the perfect catalyst for the change, just have your character change his attitude and presto, Oathbreaker.

"I'm going to hunt down the drow responsible for my brother's death and deliver the justice they deserve." - Vengeance

"I'm going to slaughter every drow man, woman, and child, until there's not one left in the wretched underdark. I'll show no mercy for anyone who gets in my way." - Oathbreaker

That's the difference between a Neutral Vengeance Paladin and an Evil one.

burninatortrog

2015-06-08, 10:16 PM

Of course, my opinion is just my opinion. I also don't use alignment, so that might color my perspective.

The only clearly delineated requirements for becoming an oathbreaker are:

The character must be evil.
The character must be at least a 3rd-level paladin.

There's also the suggestion that the paladin must "break their oath." Of course, there are no explicit rules for this, but by my reading the PHB oaths strongly suggest that just being evil is enough to break them. I'd rule that embarking on a quest of genocide also qualifies.

If OP wants to become a non-evil Oathbreaker, then they're already playing fast and loose with the requirements anyway. Making them collect some kind of oath-breaking achievement seems unnecessary.

kaoskonfety

2015-06-09, 05:44 AM

On a quick review this does not appear to have been explicitly stated (or I'm blind):

Ask the DM BEFORE you start this plan. The class is optional - very much so. Many DM's will want to know why this is your plan and I'd personally find the reason "they are bad-ass" lacking in interest. They are also listed as requiring an evil alignment - this like anything can be waived, but several of the class powers are some degree of naughty.

If a player sprung this on me, mid-game with no heads up or explanation... well I've had worse curve balls but I'd make you work for it and NEVER guarantee that the class you want is at the end of the trip.

Mechanically there is zero difference between a good, neutral and and evil Vengeance paladin. The differences are in your motivations and goals.

Good is defending the innocent from evil - in the fairly classic "the greater good way" that ISN'T over the top swan dive into evil, it's making hard choices every day.

Neutral into Evil... the Agent from Serenity comes to mind - a driven soul who will do anything to stop the evil they persue. "I'm a monster Mal."

As for actually falling as vengeance paladin? I'd suggest go too far. Again and again and again in increasing degrees. Confront all wrongdoing drastically and over the top. Make reparations to those harmed by evil less and less and make excuses not to help them at all (harbouring criminals, failing to go to the authorities, and the crime of being too weak in a world plagued with evil). One day you will look back and see that your oath has made you into the darkness you swore to fight, then you smile and kill anther villain, and take his place, settle down into being an oppressor (fo surely in a land I rule and defend no evil can flourish...). Slaughter any evil (competition) that enters your borders and champion it around for praise and glory... and ya.

CNagy

2015-06-09, 06:56 AM

When a Paladin falls, like true fall-from-grace kind of falling, it is because of some personal character flaw that they cannot overcome that causes them to fail a test of their faith. Rage and pride are the two usual suspects. Frankly, I rarely see a Paladin played well enough to consider letting them fall properly--the whole "I decide to do evil now" is a quick way to end up as a Fighter.

Oathbreaker has an evil alignment requirement to it. Vengeance is already a difficult oath to break (on account of its simplicity) and to do so in a way that keeps with an evil alignment may be even harder. However it occurs, it'll probably make most sense as a violation of your tenet of Restitution. Refuse to render aid to innocents imperiled by the actions of your foes, instead choosing to pursue your quarry. Then, when faced with the consequences of your refusal (a bunch of dead innocents), refuse to accept responsibility and instead blame your oath. Explore the hypocrisy of tenets that require you to confront the greater evil when you believe the breaking of your own oath is the lesser evil; grow disillusioned with the entire concept. Accept aid from what you suspect is in fact a great evil, but do it to combat what you know is a great evil. Really test that "By Any Means Necessary" tenet. In the end, falling as a Paladin is usually a lot of small compromises--little sins that set the stage for a climactic event.

1Forge

2015-06-10, 02:12 PM

The origonal fall can come by accident but the turning to the blackguard requires one to reject all that is good and pure. To lose your dieties grace you have to break one of their comandments or disgrace them. Once they are mad enough they will withdraw their powers from you to try to teach a lesson. Then you become a fallen paladin, you are not yet an oathbreaker, and can repent.

To further your burden you must become resentfull and angry at torm. After that your character must do one or more of the following:
A) gain favor from abyssal sources (demons will flock to you, they love oathbreakers)
B) do immense evil to gain the favor of an evil deity
or C) kill a ton of people and gain power through their death and suffering.

the trick is you dont have to show mercy or something like that, you just have to displease torm enough to lose favor. Then seal your fate by aligning with the "dark side of the force"

Edit: you could also pull an Anakin Skywalker and fall that way.

Ralanr

2015-06-10, 07:13 PM

CNagy

2015-06-10, 07:36 PM

Can I just say that as a whole I dislike the fluff behind vengeance paladins? They're the only ones who can have their quest end in their lifetime. I thought one of the big points on the paladin is that their quest never ends?

If a vengeance paladin decides to give up vengeance, say because he realizes his vengeance was stupid or it was getting out of control, then BOOM, oathbreaker. You go from guy who wants vengeance, giving it up and becoming a bigger monster than you were already before.

How does that make sense? You give up vengeance and become a worse monster? In general that's not what people want to encourage with vengeance. I'm glad that there is a paladin oath that is easier to play in non-good alignments, but for reasons of character development I cannot see a vengeance paladin staying vengeance.

In practice, you either find new targets for vengeance or you retire. The quest doesn't end until evil does, and evil never ends. The only question is which injustices you direct your vengeance toward. In fact, you can sort of look at your first vengeance as your initiation into the Oath of Vengeance. Once the dragon is slain, or the necromancer is slain, or the tyrant is slain, you now turn your gaze towards the other great evils of the world, your sense of vengeance perhaps less personal but more tempered by experience.

Sigreid

2015-06-10, 07:39 PM

...If a vengeance paladin decides to give up vengeance, say because he realizes his vengeance was stupid or it was getting out of control, then BOOM, oathbreaker. You go from guy who wants vengeance, giving it up and becoming a bigger monster than you were already before...

Hi guys, been lurking for a while and this thread made me register and post.

In my opinion becoming an Oath Breaker paladin isn't as easy as just reviewing your oath and going "nope!". I see the oath breaker paladin as a tragic character. A true believer who was doing his best to honor his ideals and it cost him. Maybe an Oath of devotion paladin devotion was sent by his order to protect a temple and while he was away his village was burned and his wife was "taken" and murdered. Now, he hasn't just forsaken his oath, he's angry at the gods, his order, his oath and most of all himself. In short, he's damned not because he wants to be evil, but because in his pain and sorrow he's lashing out like a wounded animal.

Ralanr

2015-06-10, 07:52 PM

In practice, you either find new targets for vengeance or you retire. The quest doesn't end until evil does, and evil never ends. The only question is which injustices you direct your vengeance toward. In fact, you can sort of look at your first vengeance as your initiation into the Oath of Vengeance. Once the dragon is slain, or the necromancer is slain, or the tyrant is slain, you now turn your gaze towards the other great evils of the world, your sense of vengeance perhaps less personal but more tempered by experience.

Ok, that's what I never got with the oath then. I just assumed the target wasn't something you could just change.

Hi guys, been lurking for a while and this thread made me register and post.

In my opinion becoming an Oath Breaker paladin isn't as easy as just reviewing your oath and going "nope!". I see the oath breaker paladin as a tragic character. A true believer who was doing his best to honor his ideals and it cost him. Maybe an Oath of devotion paladin devotion was sent by his order to protect a temple and while he was away his village was burned and his wife was "taken" and murdered. Now, he hasn't just forsaken his oath, he's angry at the gods, his order, his oath and most of all himself. In short, he's damned not because he wants to be evil, but because in his pain and sorrow he's lashing out like a wounded animal.

Welcome to the forums and thank you for your observation. Curious though, how to you think an Oath of Ancients or Vengeance would become an oathbreaker. I always just assumed it was "Nope!" usually in a fashion of a devotion paladin abandoning a village to an army of rampaging orcs due to fear of death.

Sigreid

2015-06-10, 08:04 PM

Curious though, how to you think an Oath of Ancients or Vengeance would become an oathbreaker. I always just assumed it was "Nope!" usually in a fashion of a devotion paladin abandoning a village to an army of rampaging orcs due to fear of death.

I really don't see it being that different. Perhaps the OA paladin finds an ancient dryad and protects her from the lumber company only to find too late that the beautiful, charming fey creature has been twisted and is killing the innocent. Or the Vengeance paladin in pursuing his current target finds that his obsession has gotten the better of him and his actions have cost him his close comrades. There are still lots of ways for a paladin to fall, but the difference between a fallen paladin who becomes a fighter and one who becomes an Oath Breaker is that in his eyes he didn't abandon his oath, but his oath abandoned him. Where he once drew his power from his focus on his oath, he now draws it from his pain.

Also, I do think a paladin that ran from the fight could possibly become an oathbreaker if he internalizes it as "I'm not a coward, my oath failed me when I needed it's strength the most, and look at what it wrought!"

Ralanr

2015-06-10, 08:07 PM

I really don't see it being that different. Perhaps the OA paladin finds an ancient dryad and protects her from the lumber company only to find too late that the beautiful, charming fey creature has been twisted and is killing the innocent. Or the Vengeance paladin in pursuing his current target finds that his obsession has gotten the better of him and his actions have cost him his close comrades. There are still lots of ways for a paladin to fall, but the difference between a fallen paladin who becomes a fighter and one who becomes an Oath Breaker is that in his eyes he didn't abandon his oath, but his oath abandoned him. Where he once drew his power from his focus on his oath, he now draws it from his pain.

Also, I do think a paladin that ran from the fight could possibly become an oathbreaker if he internalizes it as "I'm not a coward, my oath failed me when I needed it's strength the most, and look at what it wrought!"

So in conclusion, refusing to be humble makes oathbreakers.

I like that a lot. Doesn't apply to all of it (Like the Ancients one, that's more despair), but pride is the root to many villains. It's fits so well and poetically.

VoxRationis

2015-06-10, 08:27 PM

I really don't see it being that different. Perhaps the OA paladin finds an ancient dryad and protects her from the lumber company only to find too late that the beautiful, charming fey creature has been twisted and is killing the innocent. Or the Vengeance paladin in pursuing his current target finds that his obsession has gotten the better of him and his actions have cost him his close comrades. There are still lots of ways for a paladin to fall, but the difference between a fallen paladin who becomes a fighter and one who becomes an Oath Breaker is that in his eyes he didn't abandon his oath, but his oath abandoned him. Where he once drew his power from his focus on his oath, he now draws it from his pain.

Also, I do think a paladin that ran from the fight could possibly become an oathbreaker if he internalizes it as "I'm not a coward, my oath failed me when I needed it's strength the most, and look at what it wrought!"

I'm not sure that would result in the paladin falling. Being mistaken about someone's character isn't really a violation of the code (though it would be a situation the paladin would need to act to rectify).

Sigreid

2015-06-10, 08:47 PM

I'm not sure that would result in the paladin falling. Being mistaken about someone's character isn't really a violation of the code (though it would be a situation the paladin would need to act to rectify).

Well, what I was trying to get to with that is that actions may lead to risk of falling, but what leads a paladin to being an oathbreaker isn't just failing to live up to the code, but believing that the code is what has lead to all of your guilt and misery. An oathbreaker doesn't just abandon his oath, he turns against it viewing it as the real enemy. Some paladins in these situations retreat further into the oath feeling the failure was theirs. Others walk away deciding the price of keeping the oath is too high. The oathbreaker gets angry at the oath that cost him dearly and fights against everything it stands for.

Tragic villains are the best.

Ralanr

2015-06-10, 09:03 PM

Well, what I was trying to get to with that is that actions may lead to risk of falling, but what leads a paladin to being an oathbreaker isn't just failing to live up to the code, but believing that the code is what has lead to all of your guilt and misery. An oathbreaker doesn't just abandon his oath, he turns against it viewing it as the real enemy. Some paladins in these situations retreat further into the oath feeling the failure was theirs. Others walk away deciding the price of keeping the oath is too high. The oathbreaker gets angry at the oath that cost him dearly and fights against everything it stands for.

Tragic villains are the best.

So maybe an ancients oathbreaker would be from someone who put their duty to protect nature before their family, thus leading them to blame the fey spirits of the world when their family died in a tragedy.

And tragic villains are awesome. Then there's Xykon.

Sigreid

2015-06-10, 09:13 PM

So maybe an ancients oathbreaker would be from someone who put their duty to protect nature before their family, thus leading them to blame the fey spirits of the world when their family died in a tragedy.

And tragic villains are awesome. Then there's Xykon.

Yep, that's the ticket! I'm glad I was able to get my perspective across. Anyway, this is all just my opinion.

1Forge

2015-06-11, 11:57 AM

Yep, that's the ticket! I'm glad I was able to get my perspective across. Anyway, this is all just my opinion.

Dont worry its not just your opinion, this is how oathbreakers were supposed to be made:smallsmile:. One thing though, they dont always have to forsake or mistake their current oath somethmes they can just displease their diety enough to "fall" (not yet an oathbreaker) then become resentfull enough to further that by allying with your dieties enemys.

I spelled it out pretty good in comment 21. Remember dieties are selfish and self centered (dieties tend to be selfish historically, but thats up to your DM), If a paladin becomes even slightly annoyed or sarcastic with them they could pull their power for a time to show him a lesson. If that punishment gets someone they love hurt, there might be enough motivation to forsake their oaths.

When I need inspiration I look twoards the ultimate oathbreaker: Anakin skywalker

JNAProductions

2015-06-11, 12:03 PM

Who says deities are selfish and self-centered? Greek gods, sure, but what about other pantheons? Forgetten Realsm, Dragonlance, homebrew... They can very easily have totally selfless gods.

CNagy

2015-06-11, 12:04 PM

When I need inspiration I look twoards the ultimate oathbreaker: Anakin skywalker

Lord Soth, Knight of the Black Rose, is another prime example.

1Forge

2015-06-11, 12:09 PM

Who says deities are selfish and self-centered? Greek gods, sure, but what about other pantheons? Forgetten Realsm, Dragonlance, homebrew... They can very easily have totally selfless gods.

Good point I wil revise.

Sigreid

2015-06-11, 05:19 PM

Dont worry its not just your opinion, this is how oathbreakers were supposed to be made:smallsmile:. One thing though, they dont always have to forsake or mistake their current oath somethmes they can just displease their diety enough to "fall" (not yet an oathbreaker) then become resentfull enough to further that by allying with your dieties enemys.

I spelled it out pretty good in comment 21. Remember dieties are selfish and self centered (dieties tend to be selfish historically, but thats up to your DM), If a paladin becomes even slightly annoyed or sarcastic with them they could pull their power for a time to show him a lesson. If that punishment gets someone they love hurt, there might be enough motivation to forsake their oaths.

When I need inspiration I look twoards the ultimate oathbreaker: Anakin skywalker

Well, except that in 5e the paladin pulls their power from their devotion to their oath and not a god. As written, a paladin could decide to turn against his religion because he sees that he deity is failing to live up to his hopes and expectations without falling.

1Forge

2015-06-11, 07:11 PM

Oh i guess... I still play with traditional paladins, because the power is divine we play as if the power comes from the dietey.

JNAProductions

2015-06-11, 07:13 PM

Not even close to 5E. Especially Ancient and Vengeance.

Still, play your game. If you like god-based Paladins, you have fun with them.

Sigreid

2015-06-11, 07:55 PM

Not even close to 5E. Especially Ancient and Vengeance.

Still, play your game. If you like god-based Paladins, you have fun with them.

Definitely play the game the way that works for your group. Besides, in any fantasy world nearly everyone would worship someone anyway. It would be a lot harder to be atheist or agnostic if you knew for a fact that, for example, Zeus might decide to toss a lightning bolt at you to get you out of the way and seduce your wife...

JNAProductions

2015-06-11, 07:58 PM

Well, there is Discworld.

Easy_Lee

2015-06-11, 08:41 PM

Notably, the oathbreaker is somewhat misnamed. The oathbreaker isn't just a paladin that falls from the code, but rather one that sees the code and runs as far as possible in the opposite direction.

Regarding this, it may be reasonable for a vengeance paladin to decide that the merciless pursuit of revenge is not the right way. He could turn 360° and moonwalk away from that one, qualifying for oath breaker while still being an overall good guy.

Ralanr

2015-06-11, 08:44 PM

Sigreid

2015-06-11, 08:45 PM

Regarding this, it may be reasonable for a vengeance paladin to decide that the merciless pursuit of revenge is not the right way. He could turn 360° and moonwalk away from that one, qualifying for oath breaker while still being an overall good guy.

Alternately, he could fall by taking too well to the oath and deciding that innocents in the way are not his problem. Or, finding he can't get to the head of the thieves guild that the guild master's wife and child just might draw him out...

----Edit: I missed the part about him being a good guy oath breaker. Can't happen in my point of view (your game your point of view. :D) as the oath breaker has specifically fallen to the "dark side" so to speak. I think paladins leave paladin hood one of three ways.

Die on the quest
Walk away becoming a fighter when he is weary from the struggle
fall due to fear, loss, excessive hatred

1Forge

2015-06-11, 08:52 PM

Alternately, he could fall by taking too well to the oath and deciding that innocents in the way are not his problem. Or, finding he can't get to the head of the thieves guild that the guild master's wife and child just might draw him out...

----Edit: I missed the part about him being a good guy oath breaker. Can't happen in my point of view (your game your point of view. :D) as the oath breaker has specifically fallen to the "dark side" so to speak. I think paladins leave paladin hood one of three ways.

Die on the quest
Walk away becoming a fighter when he is weary from the struggle
fall due to fear, loss, excessive hatred

I dont know about dying, but if they decided to take the easy way out and kill tons of little evils for and not the greater one that might count.

Sigreid

2015-06-11, 09:04 PM

I dont know about dying, but if they decided to take the easy way out and kill tons of little evils for and not the greater one that might count.

That would be number 3. One and two are how you leave without becoming evil. You die gloriously in the quest and ascend, or battered and weary from the long struggle you just can't bring your self to go on. You're not evil, or damned, just too tired.

1Forge

2015-06-11, 11:15 PM

That would be number 3. One and two are how you leave without becoming evil. You die gloriously in the quest and ascend, or battered and weary from the long struggle you just can't bring your self to go on. You're not evil, or damned, just too tired.

Another way is losing the confidence to continue. I play a fallen paladin (not oathbreaker) who accidently killed his brother and cant forgive himself.

Easy_Lee

2015-06-11, 11:22 PM

Another way is losing the confidence to continue. I play a fallen paladin (not oathbreaker) who accidently killed his brother and cant forgive himself.

A fall could surely precede an oathbreaking. As I understand it, oathbreaking is going completely the other way on things. There are surely an infinite number of ways to do it, since it would be a personal thing. Paladins always are the emotional type, the Jedi of D&D.

Death knight 00

2015-06-12, 02:55 PM

Just because my paladin is a Lawful Good character now doesent mean i am not willing to get him to turn Lawful Evil.
So if you are looking to that as a restriction dont worry about it.

JNAProductions

2015-06-12, 03:10 PM

Why do you want to become an Oathbreaker anyway?

Ralanr

2015-06-12, 03:19 PM

Why do you want to become an Oathbreaker anyway?

This does seem like something to know.

Death knight 00

2015-06-12, 06:52 PM

I want to become an Oathbreaker mostly for the character development. But also for the powers they get.

Easy_Lee

2015-06-12, 08:31 PM

I want to become an Oathbreaker mostly for the character development. But also for the powers they get.

If you want suggestions on how to fall, I'd encourage you to be a little more specific. This forum might be benevolent enough to just keep guessing until one of us comes up with something you like, but it would be much more efficient to give us something to work with.

Sigreid

2015-06-12, 09:02 PM

I want to become an Oathbreaker mostly for the character development. But also for the powers they get.

Well, for a VP, the easy road is to get really mad and go to far. Start hitting everyone your target is friendly with. Torture underlings for information in the name of the greater good. Start punishing evil by gouging out the eyes and crippling the limbs of the "guilty". When your superiors, if you have any, object tell them they've gone too soft. Pop in the Star Wars Prequels and watch Aniken fall for some inspiration. Set things up so your order "betrays" you. Pay no attention to the fact that you're the one becoming a monster until it's too late. You will likely go through a period where you've lost your powers. Turn up the heat, railing against the unfairness when you're only doing what is necessary. Wound your character's very soul!

Ralanr

2015-06-12, 09:07 PM

Well, for a VP, the easy road is to get really mad and go to far. Start hitting everyone your target is friendly with. Torture underlings for information in the name of the greater good. Start punishing evil by gouging out the eyes and crippling the limbs of the "guilty". When your superiors, if you have any, object tell them they've gone too soft. Pop in the Star Wars Prequels and watch Aniken fall for some inspiration. Set things up so your order "betrays" you. Pay no attention to the fact that you're the one becoming a monster until it's too late. You will likely go through a period where you've lost your powers. Turn up the heat, railing against the unfairness when you're only doing what is necessary. Wound your character's very soul!

I'd recommend the younglings scene.

Sigreid

2015-06-12, 09:10 PM

I'd recommend the younglings scene.

I was thinking of in the third one how he starts blaming the jedi for all the bad stuff that happens to him without admitting to himself that he made all that bad stuff happen with his arogance and frustration that they didn't see him for the godlike being he was.

Ralanr

2015-06-12, 09:20 PM

I was thinking of in the third one how he starts blaming the jedi for all the bad stuff that happens to him without admitting to himself that he made all that bad stuff happen with his arogance and frustration that they didn't see him for the godlike being he was.

Oh that's good. The younglings is more of a too far scene. Especially since there was no hesitation.

Frostbane

2016-08-28, 11:01 PM

Long story short, my own paladin became an Oathbreaker as the result of making a pact (dipping warlock.) My DM convened that I had renounced my Oath by pledging allegiance to an otherwordly fiendish being and made me carry on my career as an Oathbreaker.

Saeviomage

2016-08-28, 11:27 PM

Show mercy to a foe and become a nihilist when the powers that be decide to demand you apologise for it or they won't help you.

Sitri

2016-08-29, 02:57 AM

I didn't read the full thread, so this may have been mentioned. But reading that you want a vengeance paladin to fall, my first thought was the Nietzsche quote about the man who fights dragons too long. If your DM makes your big bad guys have some depth, you could begin to sympathize with them as you learn more about them during your hunt. That would be the route I would take.

JackPhoenix

2016-08-29, 05:15 AM

Definitely play the game the way that works for your group. Besides, in any fantasy world nearly everyone would worship someone anyway. It would be a lot harder to be atheist or agnostic if you knew for a fact that, for example, Zeus might decide to toss a lightning bolt at you to get you out of the way and seduce your wife...

Problem with that in D&D is, so can random archmage with Lightning Bolt, Charm Person and let's say True Polymorph/Alter Self in his spellbook. Sure, gods exists... but do they deserve worship, or are they just extremely powerful spellcasters running a scam? Paying them a lip service not from faith, but from a fear of their blackmail "Praise me or I'll smite you" doesn't make you a believer.

Also non-evil "Oathbreakers" can work in some settings. I've used the subclass to represent Karrnathi Bone Knight in Eberron, and he very much had a code (similar to Oath of the Crown). Warcraft Death Knights could also work, and not all of them are evil either (they would have tenets of Vengeance Oath, but Oathbreaker fits better mechanicaly).

But in any case, ask your DM first before you try anything. If it's AL game, Oathbreaker is off-limit, and many DMs won't be willing to allow evil characters or non-PHB options.

Spore

2016-08-29, 05:32 AM

You need a GOOD reason. Work with your DM on this one. Having a Paladin break the oaths he has sworn to for so many years is not a decision taken lightly. It is unrealistic to go "meh, this Torm business is not really working out for me" amidst a ongoing quest.

Have his faith waver. Have him hesitate to help someone. Maybe just don't heal someone in time although you could. Have your DM give you a good reason to be evil in order to reach your - good - goal. Interrogating that drow captive isn't doing it. Even slight torture won't do the trick as the captive is used to mistreatment. Death threats won't do any good. Only vile tortue does the trick.

The point I am trying to bring across is: The fall of a hero is worth a story arc in and of itself. If you suddenly want to play an evil knight just replace your character.