Fighter Variant - Vanguard PEACH

[illyahr]

I recently came up with a variant for the 3.5 fighter to see if I could at least make it playable. I'd like the thoughts of the Playground on how it looks.

Vanguard

Loses: Nothing. Why would you make a fighter lose anything?

Gains:

Skill points: 4+Int

Class Skills: Same as base as well as Concentration, Heal and Profession

Bonus Feats:
Level 1 - Weapon Focus (choice)
Level 4 - Weapon Specialization (same)
Level 9 - Weapon Supremacy
Level 11 - Greater Weapon Focus (same)
Level 15 - Greater Weapon Specialization (same)
Level 17 - Weapon Mastery

Class Features:
Vanguard Defense: Starting at 2nd level, the fighter learns how to turn avoid the brunt of incoming hit. He gains Damage Reduction 1/- +1 for every 3 fighter levels past 2nd. The fighter is unable to use this effect when he would be unable to properly defend himself, such as when he is Flat-Footed.

Vanguard Attack: Due to his training with all forms of weapons, the fighter is able to use any weapon he wields more accurately than most. At 3rd level, the fighter receives a +1 bonus to his Base Attack Bonus +1/3 fighter levels after 3rd.

Battle Mobility: At 7th level, a fighter has learned to keep his defenses up when moving and can move faster in his armor. Once per turn, the fighter can select one of his opponents. The fighter does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity from the chosen opponent for moving out of a threatened square. Also, the fighter is no longer slowed by Medium or Heavy armor.

Vanguard Speed: At 9th level, the fighter has learned to sacrifice a bit of accuracy to strike quickly. By taking a -5 penalty to all attack rolls until his next turn, the fighter can make 2 attacks as a standard action.

Spell Parry: At 10th level, the fighter can deflect an ability that targets him. When targeted by a ray spell, spell-like, or supernatural ability, the fighter can roll 1d20 + his Base Attack Bonus and use the result instead of his Touch AC. If he succeeds, the spell disipates harmlessly. If he rolls a Natural 20, the spell turns back as the spell turning spell. This ability uses up an Attack of Opportunity attempt for the round. The fighter is unable to use this ability when he would be unable to properly defend himself, such as when he is Flat-Footed.

Improved Vanguard Speed: Starting at 12th level, the fighter can instead take a -10 penalty on attack rolls until his next turn to make 3 attacks as a standard action.

Improved Battle Mobility: At 13th level, the Fighter is under a constant freedom of movement effect.

Vanguard Flurry: At level 16 (read: +21 BAB) a fighter gains an additional attack with each weapon he is wielding at his highest Base Attack Bonus whenever he makes a full attack action. These attacks do not stack with those gained by the haste spell or similar effect.

[Aleolus]

It looks decent, I just have one main issue with it. The only Con based skill in the game, as far as I recall, is Concentration, which fighters have no use for, either mechanically or flavorwise. I would say class skills would be the same as the default ones, but plus Tumble.

[Elricaltovilla]

This should probably be in the homebrew forum.

[illyahr]

I think there were a couple more skills but I don't have my notes in front of me. I'm glad you like it though. I figured that since it was called a fighter, it should be able to fight. :smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

It doesn't fix any of the problems that make the fighter a flawed class. Sure, they can fight better now, but that's still the only thing the class can do, which is what keeps it in T4/5.

[illyahr]

It doesn't fix any of the problems that make the fighter a flawed class. Sure, they can fight better now, but that's still the only thing the class can do, which is what keeps it in T4/5.

I'm not shooting for Tier 2 here, just to bump it up to a moderate Tier 4 if I can.

[Brookshw]

I like the idea. Thoughts/questions.

Do the bonus feats supplement or replace current bonus feat progression?

Are you thinking that the new base attack progression would grant an additional iterative attack?

You may want to expand: skill list, additional movement capacity.

[illyahr]

I like the idea. Thoughts/questions.

Do the bonus feats supplement or replace current bonus feat progression?

Are you thinking that the new base attack progression would grant an additional iterative attack?

You may want to expand: skill list, additional movement capacity.

Nope, the fighter still gets his base bonus feats. He gets the weapon focus tree in addition.

By RAW, the extra BAB does not grant an extra attack as you cap out at 4. The Vanguard Speed ability, however, does. (See? Thinking ahead. :smallbiggrin:)

What do you mean by movement capacity?

[Brookshw]

Nope, the fighter still gets his base bonus feats. He gets the weapon focus tree in addition.

By RAW, the extra BAB does not grant an extra attack as you cap out at 4. The Vanguard Speed ability, however, does. (See? Thinking ahead. :smallbiggrin:)

What do you mean by movement capacity?

Depends on what direction and extent you might want to take it but one big drawback of any melee is they have to be able to get to the opponent to be effective in combat generally. Battlefield conditions can make that challenging to impossible as a result of spells or terrain. Short term FoM, flight, or what have you can make significant differences depending on the specifics. You may want to consider adding some abilities to get to the enemy.

[Karl Aegis]

So I have to spend my feats on expanding my skill list instead of getting the cool feats like Starspawn and Deformity (tongue). Being locked into taking martial study a bunch of times isn't fun and doesn't fix the problems of a fighter. Neither does getting bigger numbers. A caster will always have bigger numbers and can target your will save.

[ExLibrisMortis]

All your bonus feats are at even levels, maybe you should move them to the odd levels, spread out the bonuses a bit. In addition, making the fighter the only class to break the +20 base attack cap is confusing and inelegant. If you want them to have extra attacks, give them flurry of blows.

Giving fighters the weapon focus line for free is good, but as said, it doesn't solve the issue that fighters have no options. Instead of giving them a better full attack, try giving them a special ability menu, like the rogue. At every odd level, you get a special ability. You can include things like (improved) Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, the ability to cast limited spells (casting as wizard, CL 1/2 class level, up to third level spells - say one ability each for cantrips/1st/2nd/3rd level spells, 2 spells/level/day, free Combat Casting), the variant fighter abilities from Dragon #310, trapfinding, fast movement, armoured ease (incl. ability to use Uncanny Dodge, Evasion & fast movement in heavy armour), +1/2 class level bonus on str/dex checks & skills (separately, if too OP), and exotic weapon master stunts. Some of these need prerequisites, obviously, but piling basically every melee special ever into one menu is what the fighter should be all about: nothing but options, and in the end it's still tier 4.

[illyahr]

Ok, first thing's first. Yes, I know turning the fighter into a caster is an easy way to boost its power. That's not the point. If I want a caster, I'll play a caster. The point is to adjust the fighter so that it isn't so useless.

That being said.

@Brookshw:
What about if he gets continuous freedom of movement and movement doesn't provoke AoO? He could get around a battlefield with little to no trouble and focus his attention on his target instead of worrying about mooks and terrain.

@ExLibrisMortis:
I'm trying to avoid borrowing from other classes. We then get into the problem of "Why not just play that class?" I do like the fast movement in armor, though. Ignoring the speed penalty in medium and heavy armor and maybe reducing ACP's for the armor would help a bit. We don't just want options, though. We want a bit of oomph to back it up a bit. Something that will increase his output a bit. That's why I gave him the weapon focus tree free and let him have an extra attack beyond what most others are capable of.

Any other suggestions?

[Teapot Salty]

I recently came up with a variant for the 3.5 fighter to see if I could at least make it playable. I'd like the thoughts of the Playground on how it looks.

Vanguard

Loses: Nothing. Why would you make a fighter lose anything?

Gains:

Skill points: 4+Int

Class Skills: All STR- and CON-based skills are class skills,

Bonus Feats:
Level 1 - Weapon Focus (choice)
Level 4 - Weapon Specialization (same)
Level 8 - Weapon Supremacy
Level 12 - Greater Weapon Focus (same)
Level 16 - Greater Weapon Specialization (same)
Level 18 - Weapon Mastery

Class Features: OMG, What?!
Vanguard Defense: At 2nd level and every 3rd level after that, a fighter gets a +1 deflection bonus to AC.

Vanguard Attack: At 3rd level and every 3rd level after that, a fighter gets a +1 bonus to his BAB. (Yes, by level 20 he has a +26 Base Attack Bonus)

Vanguard Speed: At level 16 (read: +21 BAB) a fighter gains an additional attack with each weapon he is wielding at his highest Base Attack Bonus.

So what does everyone think? I got a fighter with no magic whatsoever up to an attack bonus of 36 and an AC of 26 with these modifications.

The problem with fighter isn't that it's outright not strong enough, it's dpr is actually quite good if you place your feats properly. What makes fighter bad is that it a)can't do anything out of combat and b) can't do anything in combat that another class can't do.
Give it some features that let it make use of the action economy, give it some unique moves.

[illyahr]

As per suggestions, variant now gives freedom of movement and reduces ACP for armor worn, no longer provokes AoO while moving, and a little bit of freedom with action economy. Any other suggestions/recommendations?

[illyahr]

Added a new ability and refined a couple things.

[Snowbluff]

Tier Four? I wouldn't think so. Spell Turning is nice, but also horribly broken (attack bonus FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR*) exceeds DC scaling), and just promotes further use of no-save spells. Otherwise, the Fighter is ENTIRELY immune to magic once per turn, which is worse with Combat Reflexes. Regular (practically played) mages can't do much to them.

Instead, these might work better:
Spell Deflection (Complete Mage)
(Improved) Evasion
Grace (As the Swashbuckler Class Feature, Complete Warrior, makes evasion better)
Lucky (As the Swashbuckler Class Feature, Complete Warrior)

The other class features are mostly just numerical. Fighters were already good at fighting. A few points here or there won't really make them better. I will say that the AC bonus should not be Deflection (a common, non-stacking type). Dodge or Morale might be a better type.

* FAAAAAAAAR FAAAAAAAAR FAAAAAAAAR FAAAAAAAAR FAAAAAAAAR FAAAAAAAAR

[LoyalPaladin]

Let me break it down. Bust a move, bard man!


Skill points: 4+Int
This is good. 4+int should really be the minimum skill points for all classes. It at least should be the minimum for melee classes.


Bonus Feats:
These are great. I've actually been working on a fighter rework myself and this is similar to what I've done. Fighter falls behind the other classes quickly and this should help out a little without breaking a game.


Vanguard Defense
That's like +7 AC at level 20, right? Sounds fine. The progression seems a little funny. Normally I feel like you'd see something like "At 4th level, a fighter gains a morale bonus to his AC equal to 1/5th his fighter level. This counts as a dodge bonus for the purposes of qualifying for prerequisites." That could just be me, though.


Vanguard Attack
This is similar to the above. You'd also get another attack off of this, correct?


Battle Mobility

Improved Battle Mobility
The first iteration of this seems similar to the knight class feature and is a very welcome improvement. The second iteration seems really powerful, but in reality it is just 40k I don't have to drop on a ring.


Spell Parry
I'll leave this one to Snowbluff & Co. It's not really my forte to critique.


Vanguard Speed
I like the first option here. It's something that needs to be attainable in 3.5 and part of the reason mages can outclass the mundane classes so quickly.

Does the second option stack with haste?

[illyahr]

Let me break it down. Bust a move, bard man!

This is similar to the above. You'd also get another attack off of this, correct?

I like the first option here. It's something that needs to be attainable in 3.5 and part of the reason mages can outclass the mundane classes so quickly.

Does the second option stack with haste?

Nope. By RAW, you get extra attacks at +6, +11, and +16, not every 5. A +21 doesn't give an extra attack, but that doesn't stop me from giving them a special ability that gives an extra attack (did the math and Figher gets and Vanguard Speed at BAB +21 :smallbiggrin:). I figured that the biggest problems with a full attack is that your target must remain stationary to do it. This, at least, gets around that and actively punishes the target further for staying still.

That sounds good, but do you think that would be too much?

[LoyalPaladin]

Nope. By RAW, you get extra attacks at +6, +11, and +16, not every 5.
Oh, okay.


A +21 doesn't give an extra attack, but that doesn't stop me from giving them a special ability that gives an extra attack (did the math and Figher gets and Vanguard Speed at BAB +21 :smallbiggrin:).
It's a nice boost that sets the fighter apart, which is nice.


I figured that the biggest problems with a full attack is that your target must remain stationary to do it. This, at least, gets around that and actively punishes the target further for staying still.
Yeah, that's what sucks and it's what encourages super chargers and pouncers.


That sounds good, but do you think that would be too much?
I doubt it. A fighter with haste and the extra attack still sits at 7 attacks that would do less damage than some twin spells.

[illyahr]

I doubt it. A fighter with haste and the extra attack still sits at 7 attacks that would do less damage than some twin spells.

But Vanguard Speed doesn't just give an extra attack, it gives an extra attack for each weapon the fighter is wielding. This includes TWF and MWF. Sure, it's cool for someone using a big sword, but that's not where it really shines.

Properly built: Sword x5, Knife x4, Bite x2, Wing x4, Tail x2 says the Half-Dragon Fighter :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

But Vanguard Speed doesn't just give an extra attack, it gives an extra attack for each weapon the fighter is wielding. This includes TWF and MWF. Sure, it's cool for someone using a big sword, but that's not where it really shines.

Properly built: Sword x5, Knife x4, Bite x2, Wing x4, Tail x2 says the Half-Dragon Fighter :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
Hahaha. Oh. I've been rebuilding one of my earliest builds. Trying to break 100 strength for LA 4 on a half dragon using only claws and a bite. Trying to do it by level 30.

[Zaydos]

Let's go through step by step.


Skill points: 4+Int

Yes good.


Class Skills: All STR- and CON-based skills are class skills, as well as Heal and Profession

So you made their class skill list worse? You took off Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, and Ride for Concentration, Heal, and Profession. As Concentration is useless without Diamond Mind or Gishing out, and Profession is dependent purely on the DM giving it synergy bonuses for use they have 4 skills on their skill list that they'd actually have reason to put ranks into. If you're aiming for a good tier 4 fighter skills are the first place to go, up to 4 ranks a level and expand their list noticeably. Concentration, Profession, and Heal are a start, but I'd throw on... well my personal one was Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Local), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex), but some of these are rather optional and there are ones you could add (Concentration)... and Why didn't I put Tumble on? Fighters should get tumble... oh yes because you can't use tumble when your speed is reduced by armor. Fighter should get Tumble and a way around that.


Bonus Feats:
Level 1 - Weapon Focus (choice)
Level 4 - Weapon Specialization (same)
Level 9 - Weapon Supremacy
Level 11 - Greater Weapon Focus (same)
Level 15 - Greater Weapon Specialization (same)
Level 17 - Weapon Mastery

So +4 to hit and +6 damage. Remember you're giving them this. It means by 15th level they have the same attack and damage bonus as Mighty Rage gives a barbarian.


Class Features: OMG, What?!
Vanguard Defense: At 2nd level and every 3rd level after that, a fighter gets a +1 morale bonus to AC. Counts as Dodge for the purposes of prerequisites.

I'd actually advice against this. Give them DR, give them a miss chance, don't give them AC, or if you give them AC give it to them in the form of bonuses which do not stack with the basic defensive items that the game math assumes. Yes a dragon will still hit them on a 2 if you do that, but it means that the other high level enemies that hit a warblade on a 10-14 don't need a 16-20 to hit the fighter. The big reason AC is worthless at high levels is that it assumes you'll spend roughly half your WBL on it, if you want to make it useful give them an ability that grants their armor an enhancement bonus when worn (25+k for +5), grant them a +1 insight bonus to AC at some point (5k), an enhancement bonus with any shield they wield (40k assuming 2HW, 25k shield and board). This lets them still have a good AC, without completely breaking down the game math.

Note also: It was when blurring armor became available giving you a 20% miss chance for a flat 9k that AC became worthless, because you could pay 9k for 20% was it really worthwhile to pay 200k for 50%? (The answer is actually 'if the DM plays enemies smart, yes, because they are also not PAing you for +10-15 damage/attack' but the internet tends to forget that PA is a thing for monsters too; that dragon which hits a fighter on a 2, it's not PAing the fighter if it wants to hit on a 2, and as it's a 1 for 1, it's not statistically worth while to PA the fighter)


Vanguard Attack: At 3rd level and every 3rd level after that, a fighter gets a +1 bonus to his BAB. (Yes, by level 20 he has a +26 Base Attack Bonus)

Again attack bonus is not a fighter's problem, they actually can not only hit but PA CR 20 enemies reliable, and besides you've already given them +4 to hit and +6 damage over Warblade (+14 damage/attack with PA), all this does is make Barbarian a 1 level dip for pounce, get rid of most melee PrCs, make ToB feel bad, and does nothing to help keep up with mages because Polymorph/Shapechange still gets ridiculously high numbers, and the real problem comes about when they're circumventing numbers entirely. I'd advice swapping this to just adding 1/2 fighter level to damage, as when you have magic gear and PA that's roughly what this amounts to and that makes it so that the disparity between 2HW and other styles doesn't widen (in fact it shrinks a bit as this helps ranged and 2WF more than 2HW). Adding massive number disparity between fighters and other mundanes doesn't fix fighters, it just makes there be fewer options.


Battle Mobility: At 7th level, a fighter only provokes an Attack of Opportunity from one creature per round for moving though threatened squares. Also, reduce the Armor Check Penalty of any armor worn by 1/3 your fighter level, rounded down. This is treated as Mobility for the purposes of fulfilling requirements.

How do you determine which creature they provoke from? I'd suggest making this be 'Once per round as a free action a fighter may select a creature. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity from that creature for moving during this round'... actually I'd advice just giving them Mobility (again against most MM monsters that will mean AoOs miss) and making it so they have Tumble and can move about without provoking if they want to.


Spell Parry: At 10th level, the fighter can attack a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that targets him instead of making a saving throw. He uses his BAB instead of his regular save when resisting the effect. If he succeeds, the spell disipates harmlessly. If he hits a critical, the spell turns back as the spell turning spell. This effect can only be used against a spell with a visual effect. This ability uses up an Attack of Opportunity attempt for the round.

This does not function. One you need to give some better determination of spells with a 'visual effect' can I use it against Plane Shift I mean being touched and vanishing is a visual effect. I assume you mean a visual manifestation such as a Ray or Fireball, in which case it just doesn't work as written. Rays are ~90% of the time Saving Throw "No" meaning you don't have a regular save to replace, and Area spells don't target you meaning you can't use it anyway. Taking intent... well I'm not sure what the intent with Rays is, and Direct Damage is not the type of spells a fighter needs help against.

Now if you took away the visual effect bit it would work brokenly good. Again monsters it'd be the same as saying Fighter's auto succeed saving throws against Spell-like Abilities, it'd make high crit range weapons an even better option comparatively. Coupled with the AC and BAB it'd leave a DM with 4 options: Use higher level enemies; use optimized dragons; all melee threats are now fighters; all threats are now mages who circumvent saves and AC. None of these are actually good things, and none really fix fighter, just kill other melee.

Thematically this doesn't really make sense. Either it's an instinctual thing and more Barbarian than Fighter, or it's a trained thing and if they're as a class by default training to fight magic they really need Spellcraft on their spell list. Either way this seems more a feat than a class feature.

Overall you'd be better off just giving a Fighter a better Will save.


Improved Battle Mobility: At 13th level, the Fighter is under a constant freedom of movement effect.

This is good. Fighter gets around the battlefield with ease, that works quite well, and it's not like you can't buy it (40k so it hurts to do so especially with the high cost of AC).


Vanguard Speed: At level 16 (read: +21 BAB) a fighter can perform a full attack as a Standard Action or gain an additional attack with each weapon he is wielding at his highest Base Attack Bonus as a Full-Round Action.

The second part of this is a neat little mini Time Stands Still every round. It's a nice high level feature. The first ability is actually the meat of it, though, but needs to come sooner to really help (i.e. people tend to play at the lower levels).


So what does everyone think? I got a fighter with no magic whatsoever up to an attack bonus of 36 and an AC of 26 with these modifications.

Should have been 38 attack bonus using PHB (Half-Orc for 20 Str, +4 from level for 24 Str for total of +7, +26 BAB, +4 from feats +1 from Mw weapon), AC should be possible up to 29 (+6 class, +2 shield, +8 armor, +1 Dex) or 31 with Mithral. It is also really, really foolish to do the math using no magic whatsoever when the game is built around magic items. For attack you throw on another +7 and for AC another... +26 (+5 Armor, +5 Animate Shield, +5 Nat, +5 Def, +1 insight). For +45 to hit (hit's Balor on a -10, pit fiend on a -5), and 52 AC (balor hits on a 21, 19 if it doesn't dual-wield, nat 20 only with later attacks; pit fiend needs a 32+), a black dragon needs a 10 to hit but this is a problem in that you've pretty much made yourself immune to non-solo encounters and even then you're dealing something like 4 times the damage of said dragon since you can PA effectively and it can't. If you want fighter to function without magic, give them Enhancement bonuses to Attack, Damage, and AC, and Resistance bonus to Saves; things that do not stack with magic items. Lets them still benefit from other magic items, while saving money (or the need to have a caster willing to cast Magic Vestment/Greater Magic Weapon for them), and makes 2WF a viable fighter path. Give them things that let them do other stuff than high attack bonus and high AC because those are the things they already do, actually better than anyone else other than CoDzilla (who this still doesn't match for AC, and doesn't match druid's to hit once shapechange is on the table)

So actual advice:

Numerically fighters actually do quite well when it comes to sitting still and swiping attacks, they can actually sit and exchange blows with the dragon assuming it was built quickly and with stuff like Weapon Focus. While they could do with stuff to relieve their reliance on magical items for such things (effectively built in Magic Vestment, and Greater Magic Weapon) they do it fairly well.

A fighter's problems can typically be divided into Mobility, Resistance, Choosing the Fight, and Out of Combat.

Why is Barbarian tier 4 and Fighter tier 5? Well largely because Barbarian is ever so slightly stronger in Core and was chosen as the cut off point to demonstrate that. The other reason is Pounce*. It lets them full attack on the go. Fighter needs a means to do that too, and they need it before 16th level. The only problem with giving fighter standard action full attack is then Swashbuckler, Barbarian, Knight, Ranger, Paladin, Monk... most every tier 4 or lower class needs it in someway, the tier 3 ones are the ones which get a standard action that is worth using beyond 11th level. But this is the main mobility a fighter needs, a way to engage a foe that doesn't stand still for them. Like I said Vanguard Speed actually covers this problem... but it comes late. Battlefield Maneuverability helps a little, but Tumble would help more and make more sense (why can they ignore AoOs from 13 creatures but not that one they're fighting one on one??).

*No this isn't the reasoning in the original tier list, but it's the reason the difference isn't questioned a lot more than it is.

Resistance is what the Spell Parry is supposed to help with but it doesn't work well. I'd suggest good Will save as the simplest way to fix this, and a fairly big one, you might also give them a bonus on saves against Mind-Affecting effects eventually or Spell Resistance. It doesn't need to be complicated. Giving them a way to resist battlefield control like Solid Fog is nice as well (Improved Battlefield Maneuverability).

By choosing the fight I mean, normally fighters can only be good with one type of combat, and you've done nothing that actually changes that. Either you put money into a bow or you put it into a sword (it's too expensive to do both), either you put feats into a bow or you put feats into melee you don't have enough to do both. If enemies fly how can you respond? Wings of flying is the option that Barbarians have to take (assuming the non-core cheaper 3.0 Evil version isn't allowed), if you're aiming for tier 3/4 you can mostly ignore this issue.

Finally there's Out of Combat utility. For a fighter this means Skills. Intimidate, Handle Animal, Craft, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive... something to do when "I stab it with a sword" is not an option. Adding 2 skill points a level helps. Removing their non-mobility based skills entirely does not.

Note that Mobility + Resistance would be Warblade (Standard action strikes typically deal less damage than a full attack, some of the best boosts are just the ones that let you move into position for your full attack; Iron Heart Surge and Diamond Mind provide resistance), a small plus on mobility is what makes Barbarians tier 4 instead of tier 5 so if tier 4 is where you're aiming it doesn't take much at all.

Just going big numbers is about the worst approach, though. It's a red queen's race situation where one of three things happen: The enemies' numbers go up and it just becomes Fighter and Casters who circumvent the numbers, the fighter is no closer to the caster and all problems are maintained; the enemies' circumvent the numbers, the encounters are more and more likely to require caster help and nothing good comes of it; or there's no change and the enemies simply become unable to hurt you which becomes boring very quickly and pushes things towards non-combat threats which the fighter can then do nothing about.

Give fighters something unique. Or failing that give them something that makes them well-rounded. Instead of making it where they have Super AC that is higher than everyone else's, make it so that they treat touch attacks as normal attacks, give them Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge and thus their defenses actually apply at all times instead of only rarely. Instead of +1 AC at 2nd and every 3rd give them DR (as much as people think DR is better it's actually usually worse mathematically 1 for 1 than AC, and if you look at how they treat DR in the official books they knew two things by the start of 3.5 DR > 10 was bad for the game math**). Give Fighter's free 50% Fortification in Heavy Armor, it's a minor ability unless people throw a lot of rogues at you, but it feels neat, and is roughly equal to a point of DR against monsters, and eventually 3 or 4 against melee NPCs, make it 80% and it's ~DR 2 and 6 or 7 against melee humanoids. Nothing huge, but noticeable.

**Core monsters do a little over 13 damage/attack at high levels, relying on multiple attacks for damage.

If your balance point is just tier 4, honestly give them a functional skill list and the bonus bonus feats and you have something that is Tier 4, note that Dungeoncrasher Fighter is Tier 4. Fighter is 'high tier 5' in the sense that anything stronger than fighter is tier 4. Of course really when people say tier 4 they're talking about 'only tier 4 to show it's weaker than factotum' Rogues and 'quite possibly stronger than half the tier 3s' Warlocks, and to reach that you need a little more, but if you fix any of the 4 issues with Fighter you've got something that can play well with Tier 4s, it's raising it to Tier 3, "High" Tier 3, or Tier 2 where it gets tricky.

Tier 3: This is tricky because Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, and Duskblade, i.e. the 4 melee tier 3s are all argued not to be tier 3. Crusader is tier 3 but it rests partially on whether DMs let you get away with punching allies nonlethally to heal, and hitting the ground for HP, without those, it's still tier 3 because its healing lets it contribute in combat in a non-damage way and has Diplomacy/Intimidate, but mostly it's just slightly better at melee than any other class from 7th to 13th level (Divine Surge is the most damaging maneuver in this range). Warblade doesn't really fulfill the criteria for tier 3 unless 'has the diplomacy skill' counts as doing so; but it is capable of contributing in any combat... as long as it gets a way to fly, and isn't a liability due to saves; give Fighter standard action attack and Good Will and it actually keeps up with Warblade. Swordsage is the most firmly tier 3 actually in that it at least fulfills the given prerequisites. Really though tier 3 is ill-defined, in that while they form a rough balance level the description of what it means (able to do one thing well, and contribute outside of its specialty) is not the defining point of it (by that standard Warlock and Rogue are tier 3, while Totemist, Warblade, and Crusader are tier 4.

"High" Tier 3: Is mostly meaningless or typically means 'mathematically broken so that it can't play with tier 4 classes at all, and only really plays nice with Beguilers/Dread Necromancers/Bards/supposedly Factotums (never actually seen one of those that functioned as well as they supposedly do). It also runs into the problem that the casting Tier 3s while just qualitatively weaker than a well played Sorcerer are at the same time qualitatively stronger than tier 3s. This is just a badly used term so of course making anything that falls under it is a hard thing to do.

Tier 2: Tier 2 is defined by being able to break the game. As a (tier 4) ubercharger does this, again the term is badly defined. Really, though, it means being able to solve a variety of encounters in an action with no single easy means of stopping that (Intelligent undead for a beguiler, constructs for a DN, terrain for an ubercharger), and the ability to pick up no ways that require new counters on level up. This is really hard to do without AoEs and BC. Stuff starts looking really Su here. Also you must have a variety of powers you can choose from, because a Tier 2 with all Tier 2 options becomes solves ALL encounters, and a Tier 2 which doesn't have a list to choose from becomes well for one really boring and for another typically much easier to counter. This is a fun build space since tier 2s can typically be played down to where you can play with Tier 3 to 5, but not really where you want a fighter as that is the class that is supposed to be simplistic to play and a simple Tier 2 becomes unable to be played down.

Also as an aside, a Fighter with Haste and 7 attacks, using a +5 Holy Collision Cold Iron Falchion (can have other enchantments if you can get a mage to cast Greater Magic Weapon on it, usually do this math with Speed weapon though so evens out) and 28 Strength will... to a balor... deal assuming a PA of 11 (not sure if that's optimal as it means they can miss on their last attack) 494.71 damage on average which is substantially more than a twinned spell (~90 ignoring defenses) or even a save or die (note you just killed it even if two of your attacks misses, and 4 of the attacks hit on a 2, 1 you take 10 on, on average you get .9 misses/full attack this way, 2 misses is less than a 1 in twenty chance, where assuming a +8 Casting stat and Gr. Spell Focus and Assay SR to ignore SR a 9th level death effect has a DC of 29 meaning assuming it targets a Balor's worst save a 50/50 chance). I will also note that this means you can kill your staple CR 20 as a standard action with how this class is designed with roughly >95% chance of success (the above included crits in the calculations so not 100% accurate but close enough). Also due to how PA works the Fighter is still probably better with a 2 hander than 2 one handers (your main hand loses 21.5 damage/hit out of 57 bringing it to 35.5, your off hand at 31, the fact that 7 of this isn't multiplied on a crit however means you're really at 81.1 with falchion x 6.1 or 494.71 damage to a balor and 536.075 with dual wielding at the cost of 4 feats and ~200,000 GP so a noticeable damage buff, but does mean that you can't get the AC to be immune to most attacks any more, and can't afford a secondary weapon to overcome a different DR type which is actually what will kill your damage by reducing it by ~90 with a 2hander and ~150 with 2WF).

[illyahr]

So you made their class skill list worse?

Ok, maybe I need to clarify skills. I listed it under the "Gains" heading to show that it gained these skills. It doesn't lose any. It keeps all its original class skills and adds any Str or Con it doesn't already have (granted there is only 1 Con skill in core but I'm covering for splatbooks) and also Heal and the Profession skills. Like you said, he needs something to do in his off time.



So +4 to hit and +6 damage. Remember you're giving them this. It means by 15th level they have the same attack and damage bonus as Mighty Rage gives a barbarian.

The weapon focus skill chain is there so the Fighter doesn't have to pay the usual feat tax for better feats. It still gets its Fighter Bonus Feats. I figured that, since the feats were Fighter-only anyway, he might as well get them for free.



I'd actually advice against this. Give them DR, give them a miss chance, don't give them AC, or if you give them AC give it to them in the form of bonuses which do not stack with the basic defensive items that the game math assumes. Yes a dragon will still hit them on a 2 if you do that, but it means that the other high level enemies that hit a warblade on a 10-14 don't need a 16-20 to hit the fighter. The big reason AC is worthless at high levels is that it assumes you'll spend roughly half your WBL on it, if you want to make it useful give them an ability that grants their armor an enhancement bonus when worn (25+k for +5), grant them a +1 insight bonus to AC at some point (5k), an enhancement bonus with any shield they wield (40k assuming 2HW, 25k shield and board). This lets them still have a good AC, without completely breaking down the game math.

You have a point about the AC. How about DR x/something? DR x/adamantine that stacks with other sources of the same type?


Again attack bonus is not a fighter's problem, they actually can not only hit but PA CR 20 enemies reliable, and besides you've already given them +4 to hit and +6 damage over Warblade (+14 damage/attack with PA), all this does is make Barbarian a 1 level dip for pounce, get rid of most melee PrCs, make ToB feel bad, and does nothing to help keep up with mages because Polymorph/Shapechange still gets ridiculously high numbers, and the real problem comes about when they're circumventing numbers entirely. I'd advice swapping this to just adding 1/2 fighter level to damage, as when you have magic gear and PA that's roughly what this amounts to and that makes it so that the disparity between 2HW and other styles doesn't widen (in fact it shrinks a bit as this helps ranged and 2WF more than 2HW). Adding massive number disparity between fighters and other mundanes doesn't fix fighters, it just makes there be fewer options.

This was actually my attempt at making Fighters better at mid levels, not high levels. They will be able to attack more and faster than other melee classes. Like you said, it won't make much difference at higher levels, but by that point getting a higher attack bonus doesn't matter too much anyway.


How do you determine which creature they provoke from? I'd suggest making this be 'Once per round as a free action a fighter may select a creature. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity from that creature for moving during this round'... actually I'd advice just giving them Mobility (again against most MM monsters that will mean AoOs miss) and making it so they have Tumble and can move about without provoking if they want to.

I'm actually considering having medium armor not slow the Fighter down at all instead of this effect. I don't think Tumble should be a class skill but at least the Fighter will be able to use it. Perhaps selecting one opponent and not provoking from them when they move?


This does not function. One you need to give some better determination of spells with a 'visual effect' can I use it against Plane Shift I mean being touched and vanishing is a visual effect. I assume you mean a visual manifestation such as a Ray or Fireball, in which case it just doesn't work as written. Rays are ~90% of the time Saving Throw "No" meaning you don't have a regular save to replace, and Area spells don't target you meaning you can't use it anyway. Taking intent... well I'm not sure what the intent with Rays is, and Direct Damage is not the type of spells a fighter needs help against.

Now if you took away the visual effect bit it would work brokenly good. Again monsters it'd be the same as saying Fighter's auto succeed saving throws against Spell-like Abilities, it'd make high crit range weapons an even better option comparatively. Coupled with the AC and BAB it'd leave a DM with 4 options: Use higher level enemies; use optimized dragons; all melee threats are now fighters; all threats are now mages who circumvent saves and AC. None of these are actually good things, and none really fix fighter, just kill other melee.

Thematically this doesn't really make sense. Either it's an instinctual thing and more Barbarian than Fighter, or it's a trained thing and if they're as a class by default training to fight magic they really need Spellcraft on their spell list. Either way this seems more a feat than a class feature.

Overall you'd be better off just giving a Fighter a better Will save.

Maybe. As you said, I can't quite get this to function as I imagine it. I like the idea, I just can't figure out how to make it work properly. You're right in that it's supposed to deflect rays and similar effects, but I don't know what wording I can use so that it works the way I intend. I want the fighter to be able to deflect spells that he can see coming (like jedi deflecting blaster bolts). Not as identifying a spell (don't need Spellcraft) but as a reflex thing that throws the spell off course.



The second part of this is a neat little mini Time Stands Still every round. It's a nice high level feature. The first ability is actually the meat of it, though, but needs to come sooner to really help (i.e. people tend to play at the lower levels).

You think I should divide up the effect? Maybe have the Standard Action full attack occur at a lower level and the extra attacks when they hit BAB +21?

Thank you, by the way. I appreciate the time you took for an honest critique.

[Zaydos]

Ok, maybe I need to clarify skills. I listed it under the "Gains" heading to show that it gained these skills. It doesn't lose any. It keeps all its original class skills and adds any Str or Con it doesn't already have (granted there is only 1 Con skill in core but I'm covering for splatbooks) and also Heal and the Profession skills. Like you said, he needs something to do in his off time.

In that case you don't need to mention the Strength skills either and you definitely need to expand it further. Among 1st party books Fighters already have all Strength skills which makes it confusing.


The weapon focus skill chain is there so the Fighter doesn't have to pay the usual feat tax for better feats. It still gets its Fighter Bonus Feats. I figured that, since the feats were Fighter-only anyway, he might as well get them for free.

Oh yeah, this works, the thing to remember was that you're giving this because well...


You have a point about the AC. How about DR x/something? DR x/adamantine that stacks with other sources of the same type?

Honestly just DR x/-, maybe make it only apply when not flat-footed so you can fluff it as an active trained defense, maybe not. Adamantine works too just is a little odder on a fighter and is the same the majority of the time.


This was actually my attempt at making Fighters better at mid levels, not high levels. They will be able to attack more and faster than other melee classes. Like you said, it won't make much difference at higher levels, but by that point getting a higher attack bonus doesn't matter too much anyway.

That's not at all what I said. What I said was it was brokenly powerful compared to Tier 3 classes at high levels and did nothing to change the caster disparity if they were playing to the hilt (and if they're not then it ends up with the broken compared to). Getting attacks sooner at low levels actually makes this worse in that regard. 20th level is an easy one to use because you can typically just go 'this is the best basic gear you can buy' without 'ok what percentage of WBL could I devote to a weapon at this level', but let's take 4th level assume eh 18 Str, 13 Dex, and 14 or 15 Con, and compare to a class of the target tier Barbarian. Assumes +1 weapon and +1 armor on the barbarian

Fighter: HP 34, +11 to hit, 2d6 + 9 damage, 5 feats, AC 19, DR 1/something.

Barbarian: HP 39, +9 to hit, +11 when raging, 2d6+7 damage, 2d6+10 when raging, 2 feats, AC 17, 15 when raging. Barbarian also has fast movement and Uncanny Dodge but 3 feats are definitely better than that.

So let's compare Warblade

Warblade: HP 39, +9 to hit, 2d6+7 damage, 2 feats, AC 17, and +2d6 damage on first two successful attacks. The fighter is a little behind the warblade at this level, Warblade is the strongest class before 5th level so that's not surprising.

At 5th level the fighter gets a second attack, and DR 2/something, however, and goes from slightly ahead of Barbarian, slightly behind Warblade, so significantly ahead of Barbarian and slightly ahead of Warblade. At 6th level the Barbarian falls back to merely noticeably behind until 9th level where Fighter leaps ahead with another extra attack, +4 better to hit than the barbarian WHEN the barbarian is raging, +1 to damage, and Barbarian's only saving grace after that point is Pounce... which the fighter will pick up with a 1 level dip. Warblade also falls permanently behind at 9th level.

To demonstrate

9th level (since they all use the same basic gear and I'm not showing a monster I'm not bothering for gear, 22 Str, 14-15 Con, 13 Dex)

Fighter: HP 72, +21/+16/+11 melee, 2d6+13 damage, AC 19+, DR 3. 5 (Bonus) Feats.

Barbarian: HP 82, +15/+10 melee, 2d6+9 damage, AC 16. +17/+12, 2d6+12, AC 14 when raging, DR 1. Barbarian does have Pounce. Fighter could have pounce at a cost of 2 to hit and damage and a feat, but they'd gain Rage 4 times per day (so more than the barbarian has).

Warblade: HP 82, +15/+10, 2d6+9 damage, AC 16. 2 (Bonus) Feats. 1/encounter pounce, +9 damage on charge (fighter can pick up +4 damage for 2 feats), 1/encounter 2 x damage with a melee attack, 1/encounter +4d6 damage.

The warblade fighter is harder to compare, but just note that the +6 to hit translates to +12 damage*, +18 on a charge, if they choose to power attack. So if the fighter makes a single attack they're dealing more than the Warblade does in two or with any maneuver.

The fighter only bonus feats do the same thing that the BAB increase is supposed to do, that is why you need to remember it.

*this is if the fighter uses it for PA which is usually not a good idea unless using Shock Trooper.


I'm actually considering having medium armor not slow the Fighter down at all instead of this effect. I don't think Tumble should be a class skill but at least the Fighter will be able to use it. Perhaps selecting one opponent and not provoking from them when they move?

Selecting one opponent would be my suggestion if you're not giving them tumble (though they'll pick it up anyway), and if you're going to do the armor thing do it for heavy as well to avoid simply making Mithral Full-Plate mandatory.


Maybe. As you said, I can't quite get this to function as I imagine it. I like the idea, I just can't figure out how to make it work properly. You're right in that it's supposed to deflect rays and similar effects, but I don't know what wording I can use so that it works the way I intend. I want the fighter to be able to deflect spells that he can see coming (like jedi deflecting blaster bolts). Not as identifying a spell (don't need Spellcraft) but as a reflex thing that throws the spell off course.

That is easy. Make it work on Ranged Touch attacks, and only ranged touch attacks, and be an immediate action. Also probably should be a feat (though reflex thing is still more Barbarian than fighter).


You think I should divide up the effect? Maybe have the Standard Action full attack occur at a lower level and the extra attacks when they hit BAB +21?

Well having just done the full attack math, they will kill a Balor as a standard action with this ability by about 18th level, so you probably don't want to give them Full Attack as a Standard and/or +21 BAB in the first place if you want to use them with official melee classes. My honest advice would be house rule that if you have BAB +11 you can make 2 attacks as a standard action, maybe both at -5, maybe even if you have +16 you can make 3 at -10. However that's outside the scope of a fighter fix and within that scope I'd say give them 2 attacks on a Standard at +11, 3 at +16, and so forth.


Thank you, by the way. I appreciate the time you took for an honest critique.

You're welcome.

[illyahr]

In that case you don't need to mention the Strength skills either and you definitely need to expand it further. Among 1st party books Fighters already have all Strength skills which makes it confusing.

I'll make sure to clarify it when I update.


Honestly just DR x/-, maybe make it only apply when not flat-footed so you can fluff it as an active trained defense, maybe not. Adamantine works too just is a little odder on a fighter and is the same the majority of the time.

Sounds good. I'll make that a thing.


-math-

That was the intended result, in a sense. Warblade can pick up near-supernatural techniques and Barbarian has a slew of special abilities (I use the Unchained Barbarian in my games. Rage Powers are a thing in Pathfinder). All the Fighter has is its numbers game so I wanted him to be the best at it. The weapon focus tree helps, but only applies to a certain weapon/weapon type. This way, he can pick up any weapon and still be able to hold his own. Do you have any recommendations to maintain this intent that would balance a bit better?


Selecting one opponent would be my suggestion if you're not giving them tumble (though they'll pick it up anyway), and if you're going to do the armor thing do it for heavy as well to avoid simply making Mithral Full-Plate mandatory.

Fair enough.


That is easy. Make it work on Ranged Touch attacks, and only ranged touch attacks, and be an immediate action. Also probably should be a feat (though reflex thing is still more Barbarian than fighter).

Maybe not reflex so much as awareness. A Barbarian goes tunnel-vision, a Fighter would maintain battlefield awareness. That was the theme I was going for with things like Battle Mobility etc. I can say that he can't use this ability if he is Flat-Footed to represent this, yes?


Well having just done the full attack math, they will kill a Balor as a standard action with this ability by about 18th level, so you probably don't want to give them Full Attack as a Standard and/or +21 BAB in the first place if you want to use them with official melee classes. My honest advice would be house rule that if you have BAB +11 you can make 2 attacks as a standard action, maybe both at -5, maybe even if you have +16 you can make 3 at -10. However that's outside the scope of a fighter fix and within that scope I'd say give them 2 attacks on a Standard at +11, 3 at +16, and so forth.

And this would help balance out his higher-than-average attack bonus. I like it. :smallsmile: