How Devils and Demons (Baatezu and Tanari) react to characters depending on race, etc

[SecretlyaFish]

So, in the campaign I will be starting soon, my character is a recently transformed Vampire cleric, 5th level. My character has also taken up worship of Asmodeus as his deity, even though in our game setting, Faerun, Asmodeus is still not considered an actual deity, just an Archdevil. Not sure if that matters.

Anyways, I have a few questions regarding how devils/demons treat and react to characters. I know for example, that demons hate just about everything except themselves. Devils however, as I have read, are capable of more of the behaviors more associated with human society, with things such as friendship, love, and companionship, although perhaps in a more twisted/perverse way, do enter the spectrum of their lives on occasion. An example would be when Levistus slew Asmodeus lover, and he was then imprisoned in the ice of stygia for presumably all eternity. Asmodeus also reputedly had a troublesome daughter, and instead of simply getting rid of her, and possibly making another one, he put up with it, still allowing her free will etc.

So, knowing this, can a player character, perhaps make a genuine friendship with a lawful evil Devil? Perhaps even a genuine romance? Could a high level cleric of Asmodeus have perhaps a Pit Fiend ally, of whom genuinely enjoys the company of the PC, rather than simply a service in which it must follow? For roleplaying purposes, or would all Devils view mortals, no matter how powerful, as completely beneath them and therefor no true friendship could ever blossom?

In addition, how do Devils react to undead? Liches and Vampires specifically, the 2 most likely to summon/deal with them. They are not mortals, and, I am unsure of whether or not they have a soul to bargain with, being already undead. Could a Lich or vampire enter a faustian pact with a devil, or does the fact they are already dead and damned in undeath prevent this? How might Asmodeus himself or other powerful devils, react to knowing his cleric or the cleric of their lord, is not subject to the same compulsions and rules etc that affect normal mortals. Would Devils view Liches and Vampires above normal mortals? Would they have a different respect for them? Above respecting dragons perhaps? While a dragon is undoubtedly more powerful than most, its still mortal.

The reason I ask all this is that even though Devils are some of the worst forms of evil, they are still lawful evil and so too with lawful evil comes not betraying trusted allies, and other things that generally come with the alignment.

Any help from you guys would be greatly appreciated. Most of my knowledge comes from Tyrants of the Nine Hells, and Hordes of the Abyss, fiendish codex 1 and 2.

[Cruiser1]

So, knowing this, can a player character, perhaps make a genuine friendship with a lawful evil Devil? Perhaps even a genuine romance?
Devils can and will go through the motions of friendship and romance, but only because the devil thinks it can get something worthwhile out of it. A devil may be friendly or romantic towards you, because only because it derives pleasure from you, can use you, or can eventually corrupt your soul. If you cease being useful to the devil or the devil finds someone better, it will turn on you, sacrifice you, or drop you without a moment's thought.

[SecretlyaFish]

Devils can and will go through the motions of friendship and romance, but only because the devil thinks it can get something worthwhile out of it. A devil may be friendly or romantic towards you, because only because it derives pleasure from you, can use you, or can eventually corrupt your soul. If you cease being useful to the devil or the devil finds someone better, it will turn on you, sacrifice you, or drop you without a moment's thought.

Yeah I figured it would be something along those lines. They like you and each other as long as they prove useful. Any thoughts on any of my other questions?

[anti-ninja]

I imagine devils might be able to experience lust but as beings of evil probably not love.

[hamishspence]

There was that one succubus who "fell in love" for real, and thus began the path to redemption:

The Succubus Paladin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

[anti-ninja]

well yes but i meant in general she is after all an exception to rule,but exceptions to the rule don't prove the rule wrong.

[hamishspence]

BoED had a pic of a paladin confronting two succubi - with the caption "The paladin must choose between destroying evil and honoring love" with the strong implication that, despite being fiends, they were genuinely in love with one another.

"Love" has a strong affinity with good, but it's not impossible for fiends to feel it - just rare.

[anti-ninja]

BoED had a pic of a paladin confronting two succubi - with the caption "The paladin must choose between destroying evil and honoring love" with the strong implication that, despite being fiends, they were genuinely in love with one another.

"Love" has a strong affinity with good, but it's not impossible for fiends to feel it - just rare. Fair enough,but let me pose this question does being capable of love also apply to things like pit fiends and if not why is the succubus so special.

[hamishspence]

It's possible that some fiends are more vulnerable to "falling in love" than others - with the job of succubi (manipulating humanoid) requiring them to have a much better understanding of humanoid psychology than most fiends, and more empathy.

[Psyren]

BoED had a pic of a paladin confronting two succubi - with the caption "The paladin must choose between destroying evil and honoring love" with the strong implication that, despite being fiends, they were genuinely in love with one another.

"Love" has a strong affinity with good, but it's not impossible for fiends to feel it - just rare.

Having said that though, "this creature genuinely loves something other than itself" does not stop it from being evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html) It gives you a potential means with which to redeem them, but if that fails (or is likely to fail) then banishing or even exterminating them is the next best thing.

[hamishspence]

True enough. Redeemed fiends are rare - though in 2nd ed Planescape there was an army of them, with its own general - K'rand Vahlix:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedDemon

[anti-ninja]

Ok I'll give you love between evil and even friendship between evil creatures but I think the devil to human relationship is almost always if not always about the devil manipulating the human,or at least attempting to.

[TheEmperor]

well yes but i meant in general she is after all an exception to rule,but exceptions to the rule don't prove the rule wrong.

The scientific method has a bone to pick with that sentence.

Anyways, as far as I know, the numerous references to "love and evil" in BoED (don't quote me on that, I'm afb due to studies) imply that fiends can feel love as an exceptional case.

[anti-ninja]

The scientific method has a bone to pick with that sentence.
I meant that in a rare case ,like devils experiencing love that the rare case does prove that all devils experience love or even most devils.

[Psyren]

It's possible that some fiends are more vulnerable to "falling in love" than others - with the job of succubi (manipulating humanoid) requiring them to have a much better understanding of humanoid psychology than most fiends, and more empathy.

And chaos being what it is, some small fraction of them will go overboard with that empathy and make it genuine. With some even smaller fraction of those even overpowering the evil in their makeup. It might be 0.0000000000000001% of all succubi, but the abyss has limitless numbers of them stretching backwards and forwards throughout all of time, so it's bound to happen eventually (to one that is not slaughtered or rehabilitated before it can escape.)

[Zale]

The main reason most Evil Outsiders aren't capable of genuine love is just because it requires truly caring about someone other than yourself, and most of them are physically incapable of compassion or selflessness.

But it could happen. Especially if the object of their affections is just as awful (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20120224#.VXbOp0YudhM)as they are.

For a Demon, needlessly extravagant destruction is super-hot.

[Crake]

"Love" has a strong affinity with good

I highly disagree with that sentiment. Love has made people do atrocious things in it's name.

Personally I treat all fiends as 3 dimensional beings, capable of all kinds of emotions, but with a very strong leaning toward evil. That doesn't make them mouthfrothing maim-machines (though again, some tend heavily toward that), it means that their methods toward their goals are evil.

A fiend can love, but their reaction to love would be incredibly different from that of a normal person. They might become worried that another fiend will steal them away, or fear the weakness, and thus kill the subject of their desire to rid themselves of the problem. Or maybe they would lock them away like a pet or trophy, kept safe and away from danger.

Point is, at least the way I've always run them, fiends are just as diverse as mortals in their personalities, they're just universally evil.

[The Viscount]

Intelligent undead do still possess their souls, so they could then bargain them away in a Faustian Pact. However, because the lifespan of an undead is limitless, Fiends would be far less likely to enter into such a deal, and if they did would likely be more active in seeking the creature's death. Both would be difficult, since neither can really die due to chance, someone has to seek them out and intentionally stake them in their coffin/smash their phylactery.

I doubt either demons or devils would have more respect for undead, since neither really respect anything but their own kind. They respect power to a certain degree, but only if said power is greater than their own. Obviously both would likely feign respect or deference, anything to seal the deal.

Many fiends might have special hatred for liches, since the type of person who would become a lich is exactly the type of person who would sell their soul to a devil when alive, then become a lich so they never have to pay for their end of the bargain. This may be on a more individual level if the fiend in question has been burned before, or it might be more widespread if there is enough talk of liches as bad "customers."

As for respect for a cleric of Asmodeus, I wouldn't expect much. Devils likely wouldn't pursue you with speed in mind, since you're dedicated to Asmodeus for life, and thus are equally likely to enter a pact at any time. Because you are actually worshiping Asmodeus, you could likely leverage that into something like a devil ally, and someone "assigned" to you could become an ally of sorts, thought friendship is likely difficult.

[SecretlyaFish]

Intelligent undead do still possess their souls, so they could then bargain them away in a Faustian Pact. However, because the lifespan of an undead is limitless, Fiends would be far less likely to enter into such a deal, and if they did would likely be more active in seeking the creature's death. Both would be difficult, since neither can really die due to chance, someone has to seek them out and intentionally stake them in their coffin/smash their phylactery.

I doubt either demons or devils would have more respect for undead, since neither really respect anything but their own kind. They respect power to a certain degree, but only if said power is greater than their own. Obviously both would likely feign respect or deference, anything to seal the deal.

Many fiends might have special hatred for liches, since the type of person who would become a lich is exactly the type of person who would sell their soul to a devil when alive, then become a lich so they never have to pay for their end of the bargain. This may be on a more individual level if the fiend in question has been burned before, or it might be more widespread if there is enough talk of liches as bad "customers."

As for respect for a cleric of Asmodeus, I wouldn't expect much. Devils likely wouldn't pursue you with speed in mind, since you're dedicated to Asmodeus for life, and thus are equally likely to enter a pact at any time. Because you are actually worshiping Asmodeus, you could likely leverage that into something like a devil ally, and someone "assigned" to you could become an ally of sorts, thought friendship is likely difficult.

Excellent advice, exactly what I was looking for!!! You've been a tremendous help to me in figuring out what the whole relationship could be like, etc. Really useful. Hmmm, I doubt a faustian pact could truly offer an undead creature more than what they already have, especially a Lich. Unless it was perhaps guaranteed a certain form upon death in Hell, but even so, being an actual Devil, you'll just never have any true freedom unless you ascend to archdevil. Still, some great ideas to mull over.

[Psyren]

I don't know that I'd agree with the above - while it's true that a Lich could use his undead state to delay payment on his end of the bargain, devils are just as immortal and thus likely to play the long con too. More importantly, the longer the lich is alive, the more valuable its soul becomes as it gains levels and amasses power. When it is finally destroyed - often, without the devils having to lift a finger, thanks to good adventurers - it will typically be a much stronger soul than it was before the spellcaster embraced lichdom. And the entire time it's alive, the lich is typically inflicting even more evil deeds upon the world of the living.

[hamishspence]

I highly disagree with that sentiment. Love has made people do atrocious things in it's name.


At which point "that's not love, but attachment" can get invoked.

It's certainly true that it doesn't always redeem, and that evil beings can love - but the association is still there.

[Crake]

At which point "that's not love, but attachment" can get invoked.

It's certainly true that it doesn't always redeem, and that evil beings can love - but the association is still there.

Well, in some of those cases, sure, that's more attachment (I'd probably call it desire though), since the fiend isn't really looking out for the subject of his desire, but himself.

But what about if say a fiend falls in love with a shopkeeper. That fiend could devise a plot to have the competition taken out for the benefit of his loved one, in horrible ways likely. Still evil, not antagonistic toward his loved one, they reap the benefits while the fiend gets to continue being evil as ****.

The deity of love in my campaign setting is true neutral for that express reason, love transcends morals and ethics, people have done noble and righteous things in the name of love, and they have likewise done reprehensible and cruel things in the name of love.

Fiends in my setting are more than capable of falling in love, and it typically turns out rather well for the mortal in question (assuming it's a mortal) if they return the affection, usually culminating in the mortal becoming a fiend in their own right. At the same time, fiends are just as capable of feeling a whole array of emotions, and having an entire spectrum of personalities that determine their reactions.

I suppose though, at this point I'm starting to blur the lines between my setting and the standard planescape definition of fiends.

[AvatarVecna]

As a general rule, even Evil has loved ones (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasLovedOnes). That said, pulling this off with one of the big three planar Evils (demons, daemons, and devils) is going to be an extreme balancing act, because these creatures aren't just evil, and they're not just Evil, they are the literal physical incarnation of a particular concept of Evil.

Devils don't really work in a romantic relationship, because that kind of relationship occurs between two people who accept the other as their equal. As Qarr the imp so eloquently summarized (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0625.html), devilish relationships are based on power, both absolute and relative; while a sexual relationship or a professional relationship can be maintained between two beings of different power levels, a romantic relationship is generally kept in balance by both parties accepting the other as their equal, their other half, or something similar. I'm just gonna leave this here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7UsbRG2evk), because Chad's reaction is a far better argument than any I could put into words.

Daemons are a very pragmatic evil, and are often described as "selfish". They wouldn't even fake a romantic relationship unless there was something in it for them; a genuine romantic relationship seems even less likely here than it did for the devils.

Demons can work as part of a romantic relationship under the right circumstances. As I understand it, demons are a lower-class kind of evil, a primal kind of evil. They do as they please because it's what they want to do, and they give in to their base desires with no inhibitions. This can manifest as a very raw, primal, pure love. Be careful, though: unless this love takes place between two demons, the non-demon is likely going to find the demons idea of "love" a bit strange at best, and utterly terrifying at worst. While you can play this the way the relationship between Sabine and Nale plays out (a very genuine love between a woman who is the physical incarnation of Evil and a man who acknowledges his universal role as a villain and loves it), you can also play it out as a mix between comedy and horror.

A while back, I was playing a fairly basic dungeon-of-the-week game with some high school buddies (elf cleric, dwarf wizard, human paladin, gnome bard, and half-orc ranger); it was about 8th level or so, and the players were wanting a more substantial plot. The next-to-last DotW I'd run, the Big Bad had summoned a succubus secretary, who gained a bigger and bigger role as the dungeon continued forward. She ended up being an absolute riot whenever she was in a fight, and so I asked the players if they minded me making her our new BBEG for the campaign idea I had brewing; they loved the idea, and so Synthia the Succubus added "Sorcerer" to the end of her title and became a full-on BBEG.

The basic idea was that some new overlord had opened a Gate to the Abyss and was taking command of the horde that was pouring through it. Other, stronger heroes were being roused to action, but our party was closest to the source, so we volunteered to be the first wave going in. Thankfully, because demons don't exactly take orders well, even from other demons, most of the stronger ones were back near the portal, duking it out to determine who was in charge, which left the weaker hordes for our heroes to wade through. As the heroes cut into these hordes, they took out everything they could while trying to work their way to the Gate, where it was being held open by some demon cultist (so they thought, anyway). Unfortunately, the hordes mostly just kinda flowed around them and laid waste to everything behind them.

Once they got into the tower where the Gate was, they started making their way up, looting along the way (because murderhobos gotta murderhobo); they found a journal that appeared to belong to the caster holding the gate open...that, or the ravings of a lunatic...or both. Apparently, they were doing this because they'd fallen in love with some guy; they'd watched him in battle and had been quite attracted to his unstoppable fury; this attraction eventually blossomed into love, at the expense of the kingdom. You see, the man they'd fallen in love with allowed his rage to be tempered by useless morals the caster found constricting and loathsome; the caster sought to prove to this person how fragile his worldview was, so that they could turn him around to their way of thinking, and the two of them could ride off into the sunset together in evil, wedded bliss.

Getting to the top of the tower, there were several balors flying overhead, locked in a battle of supremacy, while next to the portal spewing out demons was Synthia the Succubus Sorcerer. She looked at them, and got stars in her eyes when she saw the paladin. I gave them a short little speech that basically confirmed that what they'd found was her diary and that the paladin was her object of affection. The look on the paladin player's face was nearly priceless at that point, but it got even better after the following exchange:
"You...you did all this?! Razing my country, slaughtering my brothers-at-arms, spitting in the face of my every motivation?! YOU DID THIS FOR ME?!!"

"No silly. I did it for us. I know you feel this way now, but I can forgive you for that. Come with me, and I'll show you everything you're capable of when you're not holding yourself back. I can set you free...if you'll allow me. And then we can be together...forever."

[The Viscount]

I don't know that I'd agree with the above - while it's true that a Lich could use his undead state to delay payment on his end of the bargain, devils are just as immortal and thus likely to play the long con too. More importantly, the longer the lich is alive, the more valuable its soul becomes as it gains levels and amasses power. When it is finally destroyed - often, without the devils having to lift a finger, thanks to good adventurers - it will typically be a much stronger soul than it was before the spellcaster embraced lichdom. And the entire time it's alive, the lich is typically inflicting even more evil deeds upon the world of the living.

Oh liches certainly are tempting as souls, and most definitely will have the power and evil to become useful to either side. I simply meant that they are "high risk" investments with no certainty in the deal, as opposed to most people that make faustian pacts. With a lich as they grow more powerful, they often grow more paranoid or simply harder to kill, but they might still be tempting enough for a fiend to go after them.