How to fight a dragon... in B/X

[Yora]

I looked at the dragons in basic, and first they looked quite laughable. Red dragon with an average of 58 hp? Looks easy.

But it bites with 4d6 damage (24) and its breath deals damage equal to its hp (58) with half damage on a save (29).

Now look at our wizard and thief who max out at 9d4 hp. With an average of... 22 hp.

If it breathes at you while unharmed, you die. If it bites you, you die.

The only coceivable way you wouldn't die in the first round that I can see is to know the dragon is there and get to a spot where it can't reach you with its breath. Which basically means "don't fight it".

The alternative could be to get a lot of archers spread out and just hope you're not in one of those spots that get burninated. Some people will instantly die every round, but maybe you're not one of them.

What can possibly be done to fight a dragon?

[Rakaydos]

What do you get out of fighting the dragon? Isnt it better to sneak off with it's hoard for all the XP, without fighting it?

[Lord Torath]

Well, how about Resist Fire? Striking on the best archer's bow (+1d6 damage per hit). Sticks to Snakes (50% chance of getting poisonous ones). Light or Continual Light on the beast's eyes. Ventriloquism and Phantasmal Force to get the dragon to breathe in the wrong direction. Charm Monster or Confusion. Haste (which is free from the aging effects in B/X) on the person with Striking on their weapon. And Mirror Image.

Also, I don't know if this is correct, but I've always based the breath weapon damage off the dragons current hit points, not its maximum. So getting in a few early hits can reduce the damage from the breath in later rounds. EDIT: Yes, this is correct, according to page B34 in the Moldvay version.

Also, 4d6 averages 14 damage, so a 22 hp character will probably survive one bite. Hopefully the fighter can distract the beast before it gets a second one on a soft character.

Edit: 10 HD averages 45 hit points, not 58. Which rulebook are you getting the dragons out of? Red Dragons also claw/bite for 1d8/4d8 in the Moldvay book.

[Yora]

The 58 hp would be from a 13 HD dragon, which I somehow mixed up when I wrote this. And 4d6 is indeed 14 damage on average, almost just half as much as I mistakenly calculated. The odds to be instant chomped are indeed not too high. That makes it a lot more survivable.

But still, if you don't see it coming and can do something about it, that initial fire blast would be absolutely brutal.

[Digitalelf]

That makes it a lot more survivable.

There was a Basic D&D module for characters of levels 1-3 that featured a young red dragon.

The module was B5: Horror on the Hill

[Lord Torath]

But still, if you don't see it coming and can do something about it, that initial fire blast would be absolutely brutal.So as long as the PCs take sensible precautions, it's on the DM to give the players enough clues to figure out Something Big and Nasty is coming. If it's a part of the planned adventure, the PCs should have plenty of hints. If it's a random encounter, it's up to the DM to give the PCs enough warning.

[hamlet]

There was a Basic D&D module for characters of levels 1-3 that featured a young red dragon.

The module was B5: Horror on the Hill

I love that module. Fantastic thing it was.

To be fair, though, it did give you a way to deal with the situation.

And, for Yora, keep in mind that "fight and kill it" was actually very infrequently the "correct" response to any given situation. In older versions of the game, the risk to reward ratio was just wrong. It was much better to sneak away with the cash, bargain with the monsters, or something else equally less confrontational.

[kyoryu]

The 58 hp would be from a 13 HD dragon, which I somehow mixed up when I wrote this. And 4d6 is indeed 14 damage on average, almost just half as much as I mistakenly calculated. The odds to be instant chomped are indeed not too high. That makes it a lot more survivable.

But still, if you don't see it coming and can do something about it, that initial fire blast would be absolutely brutal.

Yes. Exactly. You don't waltz into a dragon's den unprepared and expect to win. If you happen on a dragon's den without preparation, you go "holy bejeezus, run!" Then you make plans and come back when you *are* prepared.

(This, of course, doesn't work well with the style of game where the GM feeds you a certain number of encounters in linear order.)

[Lord Torath]

I do find it interesting that the Moldvay rules have dragon hit points at 1 per die per age level, just like in the AD&D Monster Manual. The 1983 Frank Mentzer printing (Red Box/BECMI) abandoned that concept (as did AD&D when it went to 2nd Edition).

[Yora]

Really? I don't see anything like that in B/X Basic.

[kyoryu]

Yeah, Moldvay doesn't seem to have that...


AGE: The statistics given are for an average-sized dragon of its type. Younger dragons are smaller and have acquired less treasure; older dragons are larger and have acquired more. Dragons generally range in size from 3 hit dice smaller to 3 hit dice larger than average. For example, red dragons could be found having 7 to 13 hit dice, depending on their age.

By virtue of the fact that it says to vary hit dice based on age, it seems reasonable to assume that you wouldn't do the 'age=hp/hd' thing.

[Lord Torath]

Really? I don't see anything like that in B/X Basic.


Yeah, Moldvay doesn't seem to have that...
By virtue of the fact that it says to vary hit dice based on age, it seems reasonable to assume that you wouldn't do the 'age=hp/hd' thing.My mistake. I was looking at the Blue Holmes version and got confused. :smallredface:

[Knaight]

Personally, I'm fond of rockslides for situations like this. You've got a large creature that is conventionally living in a cave somewhere, you've likely got passages that fit you and not it, and that's the sort of situation that suggests ambushes. A bunch of arrows then a lance to the face is one kind of ambush (and cave-mouth ambushes can be pretty nicely done), but if you've got some rocks ready to fall somewhere in a cave system - which you probably do - you might as well use them.

[Thrudd]

Hopefully, by the time you are expected to face an adult dragon, you do have a small army. Probably at least one henchman per PC. Knowing you're going up against a dragon, you might get some hirelings as well (if anyone will take the job). With the standard party size of 6-8 PC's, you could easily have 20 or more bodies in the fight. Yeah, a few people will probably die in the attempt, but in the proper environment and with foreknowledge you can make it work.

[Telok]

Incompetent or unprepared dragon hunters die and wizards foolish enough to be standing close to an angry dragon have very short life spans. Sounds like things are working as intended.