Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXIX

[Heliomance]

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef LXIX. Here in Optimisation Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a "sweet spot" of their choosing that represents what they believe to be the high point of the build. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

Menu: The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was 60 threads ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 09:59 GMT on Sunday, June 21st, 2015 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Heliomance. Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 09:59 GMT on Sunday, July 5th, 2015 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

You've been asking for a while, and I finally got round to typing it up, so this month's Secret Ingredient is:
Oriental Adventures' Shiba Protector!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honourable Mention will go to the chairwoman's favourite build.

Allez, optimiser!

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall to Orcus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302487)
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307823)
Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312773)
Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317934)
Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325164)
Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330890)
Iron Chef LV: Mountebank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336373-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LV)
Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342807-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVI)
Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349040-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVII)
Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357412-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVIII)
Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LIX)
Iron Chef LX: Lasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371835-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372145-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXII)
Iron Cheff LXIII: WItchborn Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382632-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIII)
Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387166-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIV)
Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394981-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXV)
Iron Chef LXVI: Dwarven Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXVI)
Irogn Chef LXVII: Gnome Giant Slayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406613-Irogn-Chef-Optimisatiogn-Challegnge-ign-the-Playgrougnd-LXVII)
Iron Chef LXIX: Fang of Lolth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412530-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXVIII)

[Heliomance]

FAQ:
Q: What's this even about?
A: I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?
A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

Q: What about 3.0 materials?
A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?
A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

Q: What about online sources in general?
A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?
A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Heliomance is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?
A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavourably on it.

Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armour, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favourably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

[Zaq]

Huh. What a strange class. I've never really looked at it before. Nothing leaps out at me as being especially noteworthy, but maybe I'll get inspired.

Can we get an official ruling on whether One With Nothing is as useless as it is by RAW? As a supernatural ability without a listed activation time, it defaults to being a standard action to turn it on. Which means that you can't really do much with it, since it'll have worn off by the time you get another action. I guess you can use it to run far with your move action . . . but probably not farther than you could have moved just by taking a double move action.

RAI seems that it would be a free action (or maybe a swift action, though I think those didn't exist when OA was written), but RAW, it's a standard action and therefore pretty much a useless ability. How do you want us to treat it?

[Sian]

Been asking for this one for some time ... now to figure out how to use this glorified 10 level long 1-level prc in its full length

[KrimsonNekros]

... Heliomance you are a devil....

[Heliomance]

I am ruling that One with Nothing and One with All and Nothing are both nonactions. For three rounds per day you may simply choose to act as if hasted, no activation required. Similarly, no activation is required to replace an ability score - you choose it, and it is so.

[The Viscount]

Yeah, I'm likely in. I love the OA classes, even this one.

For the Aid Shugenja class feature, just to be clear, does the Shugenja make the spellcraft check, or does the Shiba Protector?

I'm assuming that when the text says "For a single round, the samurai can act as if under the effect of a haste spell." it instead means the Shiba Protector?

[Deadline]

For anyone who's having trouble finding the class, it's on pages 222-223 in the book (it's not listed with the normal prestige classes).

[WhamBamSam]

I've had one stewing for this for a while. I'll be sure to get a build in.

[Venger]

I am ruling that One with Nothing and One with All and Nothing are both nonactions. For three rounds per day you may simply choose to act as if hasted, no activation required. Similarly, no activation is required to replace an ability score - you choose it, and it is so.

you are merciful. this takes the class from "complete trash" to "there's still some cheese left on this pizza box"


Yeah, I'm likely in. I love the OA classes, even this one.

For the Aid Shugenja class feature, just to be clear, does the Shugenja make the spellcraft check, or does the Shiba Protector?

I'm assuming that when the text says "For a single round, the samurai can act as if under the effect of a haste spell." it instead means the Shiba Protector?

same. I just can't help myself. this is what I get for requesting this class.

that's actually clear in the RAW (shocking, I know) the sample shiba protector is consistently referred to using female pronouns. ergo, the shugenja makes the spellcraft check, not you.

as far as the second one, never assume

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2013%2F0408%2Fmlb_a_abbott_costel lo_300.jpg

this weird class tells a member of one class what to do as a class feature, why not another? :smalltongue:

(NB: I'm kidding, heliomance, please don't take away our haste)


For anyone who's having trouble finding the class, it's on pages 222-223 in the book (it's not listed with the normal prestige classes).

even OA is trying to protect us from this class.

[Deadline]

that's actually clear in the RAW (shocking, I know) the sample shiba protector is consistently referred to using female pronouns. ergo, the shugenja makes the spellcraft check, not you.

See, I thought that given the low DC (10) and the fact that the Shiba Protector gets Spellcraft as a class skill, that it was the Shiba Protector that makes the check.

[Venger]

See, I thought that given the low DC (10) and the fact that the Shiba Protector gets Spellcraft as a class skill, that it was the Shiba Protector that makes the check.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2013%2F0408%2Fmlb_a_abbott_costel lo_300.jpg

that was your first mistake :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

I'll judge this round, using the following criteria.
Building a viable PC in accordance with the rules (of D&D, and of the contest) is the mission.
If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. I'll try to reconsider the character after it's stripped of whatever was illegal, but you may well get to a minimum score if significant parts of the character are invalid. (I'm not going to try to redo your build to make the illegal parts right and then judge my version of the character.) Failing to follow the rules may cause your build to fall apart. For instance, if you fail to meet the requirements to enter a prestige class, all the levels of that class you don't qualify for will have to be stripped out and you might be left with a build of just a few levels instead of the 20 you're supposed to have. If you choose to use a race which has no level adjustment listed for PCs you'll automatically receive a minimum score in all categories, with no further consideration of the character.

Dot your Ts and cross your Is, Chefs! Errors can be embarrassing!


Innovation
Innovation is half (2.5 points) subjective, and half based on what the other competitors come up with. If you suprise me you're good for the subjective part, but if everyone surprises me with similar ingredients you'll all suffer lower scores. Top marks come when you surprise me and also distinguish yourself from the competition. Your original choices also have to make sense for the meal; nobody is going to applaud horseradish on your ice cream.

Power
Power of the overall character should be in line with the power of the SI. Slightly better in all respects is perfectly acceptable; that's the ideal recipe. Much more powerful in any one aspect will lose you points, just as adding habanero peppers to a dish that calls for a little cayenne will ruin the meal. More powerful in many ways will send your score toward the minimum; you'll have made something quite zesty, but it won't be the right dish for the competition. You'll receive similar deductions if you fall significantly below the power of the SI. If your character relies on gear you need to list all such equipment requirements, just as you would specify a Culinique pan in a Baked Alaska recipe.

Elegance
No story is required, but if you do include one you need to make it both readable and worth reading.
Use it, link it. Every element of your build is going to get scrutinized by all the judges. If there's an opportunity to link to an online class description, feat, spell, or whatever: use it, link it; it will save time in evaluating your build. If you fail to follow this rule you're deliberately prioritizing your time over that of every judge. If there's no online source please include book title and page number at the first use of each reference.

Adding a section which explains how your entry satisfies each of the the Innovation, Power, Elegance, and Use of Secret Ingredient contest criteria is your opportunity to show your culinary skills to maximum effect. Don't assume that build synergies are obvious to anyone but you: explain to the judges how your recipe combines flavors. I'm disinclined to improve scores afterward for elements you failed to highlight in your entry, so finish your presentation before submitting rather than later as disputes.

Using many sources will never hurt your score if the elements work together. If they don't work well together, keeping the list of sources short won't help you. Similarly, I won't penalize for class dips if they result in a build which works well with the Secret Ingredient. Spending XP gratuitously (on multiclassing penalties, for instance) will hurt your score; I'll consider XP use exceeding the maximum for level 20 (209,999) a mechanically illegal build. If you've got any Level Adjustment, include it at the end of your build table so feats and skills are represented at the correct levels.

Finally, don't forget the little details. Include place of origin, alignment, subrace, patron deity, point buy numbers, racial and template adjustments, schedule of ability increments, languages, class variants, ACFs, substitution levels, and anything else that's necessary to understand your character.

Use of Secret Ingredient
Your meal should make the best use of the SI from first course to last. If you cram the SI in the last levels of your build without justifying that choice you should expect a low score; you'll have served up only desert rather than a full meal. If you make the rest of the meal bland purposely to showcase the SI you should expect a low score. If the rest of the build doesn't blend harmoniously with the SI you should expect a low score, regardless of whether those choices make the character stronger or weaker. You don't have to use every level of the Secret Ingredient, but if you leave something out you need to show that doing so results in a build which makes better use of the SI (not merely a better character overall).

In short, the build needs to demonstrate why the Secret Ingredient is the best choice for your meal, and not simply there to satisfy a contest requirement.
By posting these criteria well ahead of time I hope to head off avoidable disappointment.

[Amphetryon]

Two SI's in a row that can't use the spreadsheet makes me sad.

Please, tell me the judges aren't going to penalize us this round for assuming that the party has a Shugenja in it.

[Venger]

Power
Power of the overall character should be in line with the power of the SI. Slightly better in all respects is perfectly acceptable; that's the ideal recipe. Much more powerful in any one aspect will lose you points, just as adding habanero peppers to a dish that calls for a little cayenne will ruin the meal. More powerful in many ways will send your score toward the minimum; you'll have made something quite zesty, but it won't be the right dish for the competition. You'll receive similar deductions if you fall significantly below the power of the SI. If your character relies on gear you need to list all such equipment requirements, just as you would specify a Culinique pan in a Baked Alaska recipe.

I have some questions.

I do not understand this. you are saying that if a character is too powerful, it will score low in power, but if it's not powerful enough, it will also score low in power. I do not foresee any circumstances, where a character could get a 5 in power under these rules.


EleganceUsing many sources will never hurt your score if the elements work together. If they don't work well together, keeping the list of sources short won't help you. Similarly, I won't penalize for class dips if they result in a build which works well with the Secret Ingredient. Level Adjustment and a moderate amount of LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) are fine with me as long as you follow all the related rules. Spending XP gratuitously (on multiclassing penalties, for instance) will hurt your score; I'll consider XP use exceeding the maximum for level 20 (209,999) a mechanically illegal build. If you've got LA that's not bought off, include it at the end of your build table so feats and skills are represented at the correct levels.


Finally, don't forget the little details. Include place of origin, alignment, subrace, patron deity, point buy numbers, racial and template adjustments, schedule of ability increments, languages, class variants, ACFs, substitution levels, and anything else that's necessary to understand your character.

LA buyoff is actually explicitly disallowed by the rules, like gestalt or spellpoints, since it is a variant system and puts contestants who use it at an unfair advantage. it is illegal for iron chef.

what is "place of origin?" do you just mean what setting, or something more specific like breland or silverymoon? do you want all of these things listed in a footnote, or just if they are relevant? (i.e., does someone who's not required specifically to revere a particular god and it doesn't come up narratively still need a listed patron)


Use of Secret Ingredient
Your meal should make the best use of the SI from first course to last. If you cram the SI in the last levels of your build without justifying that choice you should expect a low score; you'll have served up only desert rather than a full meal. If you make the rest of the meal bland purposely to showcase the SI you should expect a low score. If the rest of the build doesn't blend harmoniously with the SI you should expect a low score, regardless of whether those choices make the character stronger or weaker. You don't have to use every level of the Secret Ingredient, but if you leave something out you need to show that doing so results in a build which makes better use of the SI (not merely a better character overall).

so everyone needs to finish it early/ontime to get a good uotsi score? but then I also see that if I put it early to show it off, I will be penalized. and I don't have to finish? I do not understand how these ideas fit together. like with power, they seem at odds. would you kindly explain what a 5 in uotsi looks like to you? (not "tell me what to build" but how would it fulfill these things you said?)

[Curmudgeon]

I do not understand this. you are saying that if a character is too powerful, it will score low in power, but if it's not powerful enough, it will also score low in power. I do not foresee any circumstances, where a character could get a 5 in power under these rules.
The overall power of the character would need to be close to that of the SI to gain a top score.

LA buyoff is actually explicitly disallowed by the rules ...

Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.
You've ignored the "such as" limitation in this rule, and I don't see the "reducing level adjustments" rule as either being like Gestalt/generic classes or creating a different playing field. LA buyoff is pretty simple; the rule (with examples) takes less than a page. I've also made it very clear that there's a reasonable, quantified limit to extra XP (for all purposes, not only LA buyoff). You can ask our esteemed IC Chair for an additional contest rule tightening things up here (such as a fixed 190,000 XP budget so that someone using LA buyoff or casting a spell costing a few XP during character development wouldn't be able to go past level 19), but I don't see how that makes for better cooking. I've always thought that flexibility was to be encouraged in creative endeavors such as Iron Chef.

what is "place of origin?" do you just mean what setting, or something more specific like breland or silverymoon? do you want all of these things listed in a footnote, or just if they are relevant?
It's whatever is necessary to understand the build. If "Greyhawk" is sufficient for the character, it's sufficient for me. If you're relying on a [Regional] feat you need to be more specific.

so everyone needs to finish it early/ontime to get a good uotsi score? but then I also see that if I put it early to show it off, I will be penalized. and I don't have to finish? I do not understand how these ideas fit together. like with power, they seem at odds. would you kindly explain what a 5 in uotsi looks like to you? (not "tell me what to build" but how would it fulfill these things you said?)
The highlighted statement is incorrect. Making the other classes in the build uninteresting to show off the SI will make for an overall dull character, and the score will reflect that. Entering the SI as soon as you can, other factors being equal, is a good thing. This competition is about creating an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D 3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient". Reading level 5 and level 10 character snapshots when there's no trace of Secret Ingredient is not flavorful (at least not flavorful in ways that satisfy the competition goals). The SI should be central to the build, not a tacked-on appendage.

As I stated, if you delay SI entry you simply need to explain why that makes its use in the character better. Making the SI the last levels in the build for no stated reason means you've failed to use the SI up until that point. What score for "Use of Secret Ingredient" should you expect if you've purposely avoided using the Secret Ingredient for half the build?

[Venger]

The overall power of the character would need to be close to that of the SI to gain a top score.
harsh. but I understand now what you're saying.


You've ignored the "such as" limitation in this rule, and I don't see the "reducing level adjustments" rule as either being like Gestalt/generic classes or creating a different playing field. LA buyoff is pretty simple; the rule (with examples) takes less than a page. I've also made it very clear that there's a reasonable, quantified limit to extra XP (for all purposes, not only LA buyoff). You can ask our esteemed IC Chair for an additional contest rule tightening things up here (such as a fixed 190,000 XP budget so that someone using LA buyoff or casting a spell costing a few XP during character development wouldn't be able to go past level 19), but I don't see how that makes for better cooking. I've always thought that flexibility was to be encouraged in creative endeavors such as Iron Chef.

in every past round, people who took LA buyoff were rightfully penalized for giving themselves free templates, because it is against the rules of the competition.

I never said it wasn't simple, just that, like gestalt, it gives cooks who use it an unfair free boost over those who don't cheat.

as you said, I will leave it to the chair to officially rule against it. I thought it was clear from the FAQ for our past contests.

flexibility is, but giving yourself free boosts (such as saying a dread necro with all the corpsecrafter things boosted your undead guy) is not.


It's whatever is necessary to understand the build. If "Greyhawk" is sufficient for the character, it's sufficient for me. If you're relying on a [Regional] feat you need to be more specific.
got it.


The highlighted statement is incorrect. Making the other classes in the build uninteresting to show off the SI will make for an overall dull character, and the score will reflect that. Entering the SI as soon as you can, other factors being equal, is a good thing. This competition is about creating an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D 3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient". Reading level 5 and level 10 character snapshots when there's no trace of Secret Ingredient is not flavorful (at least not flavorful in ways that satisfy the competition goals). The SI should be central to the build, not a tacked-on appendage.

As I stated, if you delay SI entry you simply need to explain why that makes its use in the character better. Making the SI the last levels in the build for no stated reason means you've failed to use the SI up until that point. What score for "Use of Secret Ingredient" should you expect if you've purposely avoided using the Secret Ingredient for half the build?
oh, okay. I misunderstood what you meant by "bland"

I don't agree with your uotsi criteria, but they are internally consistent and I understand them now. thanks for clarifying.

[Sian]

got a qulification question.

Race: Human (Phoenix) ... Is this explicitly disallowing everything but humans or would human-like races, being Humanoid (Human) (as per variant rules in Races of Destiny p150), or taking Human Heritage (Feat from same book), be allowed.

[KrimsonNekros]

Expertise was updated to Combat Expertise in 3.5 right?

[Sian]

Says so in the 3 -> 3.5 update booklets

[Heliomance]

See, I thought that given the low DC (10) and the fact that the Shiba Protector gets Spellcraft as a class skill, that it was the Shiba Protector that makes the check.

Huh. That was my thinking as well. And seeing as it'll force you all to take some Spellcraft,that's the interpretation I'll run with :evillaugh:


Two SI's in a row that can't use the spreadsheet makes me sad.

Please, tell me the judges aren't going to penalize us this round for assuming that the party has a Shugenja in it.

Actually you can, as of last week.

As for LA buyoff, I thought I'd disallowed it in the rules. Apparently I hadn't, so I will do so now. No LA Buyoff. I won't enforce a hard and fast XP limit for crafters and such, but I'll issue a subjective don't go overboard.


got a qulification question.

Race: Human (Phoenix) ... Is this explicitly disallowing everything but humans or would human-like races, being Humanoid (Human) (as per variant rules in Races of Destiny p150), or taking Human Heritage (Feat from same book), be allowed.

AFB at the moment, so I can't check. I think it means Human only, but I'm willing to be proved wrong by those who know therules better than I.

[Sian]

clarifying (or expanding) on the previous question.

Is it only standard 'no-frills' Core Human or does 'Variant Humans' such as Azurin or Silverbrow qualify?

[WeaselGuy]

Depending on free time available, I might be in for this one. I like me some OA.

[Darrin]

Race: Human (Phoenix) ... Is this explicitly disallowing everything but humans or would human-like races, being Humanoid (Human) (as per variant rules in Races of Destiny p150), or taking Human Heritage (Feat from same book), be allowed.

Taking a feat to gain the human subtype when you already have the human subtype would be redundant. I will be exceedingly obstinate about this point. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17864425&postcount=524)


clarifying (or expanding) on the previous question.

Is it only standard 'no-frills' Core Human or does 'Variant Humans' such as Azurin or Silverbrow qualify?

Choosing your clan has nothing to do with your subrace, and there's nothing in the OA rules that says the clans are exclusively restricted to vanilla humans. So presumably Azurin or Silverbrow humans that grew up in the Phoenix clan are treated just like any other Human (Phoenix).

Once your clan is chosen, then you get one skill that is always considered a class skill, and your human bonus feat must [EDIT] may be selected from a list of [ancestor] feats specified by your clan. For the Phoenix clan:

Knowledge (arcana) is always a class skill.
Favored class: Shugenja.

Ancestor feats:
Discipline
Great Diplomat (likely banned, as it is too similar to Leadership)
Keen Intellect
Oni's Bane
Scholar of Nature
Spellcaster Support

(Many of these feats were updated or reworded in Dragon #318.)

[samduke]

Once your clan is chosen, then you get one skill that is always considered a class skill, and your human bonus feat must be selected from a list of [ancestor] feats specified by your clan. For the Phoenix clan:

Knowledge (arcana) is always a class skill.

Ancestor feats:
Discipline
Great Diplomat
Keen Intellect
Oni's Bane
Scholar of Nature
Spellcaster Support


I would like to know where in OA that this is stated , what page please, as I am not finding the above information in the book

[Curmudgeon]

Says so in the 3 -> 3.5 update booklets
For reference, you can find these booklets here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a).

The steps to use Oriental Adventures content in a 3.5 build are as follows:

Apply the 3.0 errata file, which you can download here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a).
Apply the 3.5 update in Dragon # 318.
Make general 3.0->3.5 updates using those booklets (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a).
Go through the early 3.5 list of replacements for Feats, Prestige Classes, and Spells here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x).
Consult the Consolidated Lists Archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists) for more replacements, such as the Void Disciple PrC being replaced (in Complete Divine) just one month after the OA 3.5 update.
If you had a DM, this would be where you'd talk to them about issues which still aren't addressed.

I think that's all of it. If I've overlooked anything, please send up a flare.

[Sian]

I would like to know where in OA that this is stated , what page please, as I am not finding the above information in the book

Page 9 has the infomation


[...]If the character comes from one of the great clans, this feat must be an ancestor feat. Otherwise it may be any feat

scratch that, Dragon 318 update revokes this rule, in the intro-blurb about ancestor feats.

[Darrin]

I would like to know where in OA that this is stated , what page please, as I am not finding the above information in the book

OA page 59, second paragraph after "Feats".


scratch that, Dragon 318 update revokes this rule, in the intro-blurb about ancestor feats.

Huh. I missed that. Thanks!

Here's the relevant text from page 37 of Dragon #318:

"Human characters from one of the great clans are no longer required to spend their bonus feat slot on an ancestor feat. Choosing an ancestor feat is a good option for many characters, but never a requirement. Any character can choose an ancestor feat, but only at 1st level. No character can have more than one ancestor feat."

Something else I forgot... if you choose the Phoenix clan, your favored class becomes shugenja. I don't see any indication that this is in addition to the existing Human favored class, so I'm assuming this means "shugenja" *replaces* how favored class normally works for humans. This means you could get dinged with a multiclass penalty by a judge who penalizes that sort of thing. I have no idea if selecting a clan also supercedes your racial abilities as a subrace, such as Azurin or Illumian... primary source gets a bit muddled, as OA is the primary source for the Phoenix Clan but something like MoI is the primary source for Azurin. However, the changes to favored class were never mentioned in Dragon #318, so we may want to rely on the "minor adjustments" clause from page 4 of the DMG to resolve a discrepancy between the 3.0 OA rules and the subsequent 3.5 sourcebooks. I would encourage the judges to be flexible on this point.

[Amphetryon]

Oriental Adventures specifically bans certain Base Classes (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Wizard). Are those bans in effect here? If not, how will they impact judging, if at all?

[Curmudgeon]

Oriental Adventures specifically bans certain Base Classes (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Wizard). Are those bans in effect here? If not, how will they impact judging, if at all?
That ban is for characters native to Rokugan. To enter Shiba Protector you have to be a Phoenix Clan Human. Phoenix Clan is a noble house native to Rokugan. I don't see how choosing any of those base classes can be other than a failure to qualify.

[Sian]

yeah, because its obviously impossible to be of a french family while living in USA :smalltongue: even if you move back at some point after having worked for a number of years. A question of cooking the fluff properly

[The Viscount]

On the subject of variant humans like azurin, I'm inclined to think no, since the Phoenix clan is mentioned to be genetically homogeneous enough that they have common physical characteristics. Phoenix is essentially a variant human itself. That's just my thoughts, though. I'd be interested in a ruling from the chair.

[Deadline]

That ban is for characters native to Rokugan. To enter Shiba Protector you have to be a Phoenix Clan Human. Phoenix Clan is a noble house native to Rokugan. I don't see how choosing any of those base classes can be other than a failure to qualify.

Gaijin adopted into the clan? It's out there, but not impossible (and the adopted outlander is a Trope).

[Amphetryon]

Gaijin adopted into the clan? It's out there, but not impossible (and the adopted outlander is a Trope).

"Your ways are strange to us, but you have done a great service to our clan. We would be honored to consider you one of us, now." Nah. Can't see anyone making a story with that element to it.

I'm curious if the "infant left on the doorstep" backstory would also result in FTQ, since the infant was not of Phoenix Clan blood.

Anyway, forewarned is forearmed.

[Heliomance]

That ban is for characters native to Rokugan. To enter Shiba Protector you have to be a Phoenix Clan Human. Phoenix Clan is a noble house native to Rokugan. I don't see how choosing any of those base classes can be other than a failure to qualify.

This is an unnecessarily harsh stance and I would discourage it on two counts: One, it harshly limits the variety of builds we'll see. Two, there are many possible ways and rationales for it to happen. Official verdict from the chair on non-Rokugani classes: You'd better have a damn good reason for it.

The Rokugani clans adopt outsiders on a semi-regular basis. They have a concept called "Twenty Goblin Winters" that they sometimes declare when they need manpower. Any samurai (the social class, not the mechanical class) who shows up during a Twenty Goblin Winter carrying twenty goblin heads is adopted into the clan, no questions asked. I would be surprised if a gaijin couldn't do the same thing.

[Sian]

Not that its relevant due to none of the nations actually having Shiba Protector listed (as the only PrC as far as i can see), but would Official Updates/Errata also cover Dragon Magazine 315, which has updated many of the old Campaign settings?, in this case the specific question would have been on Kara-Tur

[Heliomance]

Ancestor feats:
Discipline
Great Diplomat
Keen Intellect
Oni's Bane
Scholar of Nature
Spellcaster Support

(There were no changes to these feats in Dragon #318.)

Uh... all those feats have been changed.


Not that its relevant due to none of the nations actually having Shiba Protector listed (as the only PrC as far as i can see), but would Official Updates/Errata also cover Dragon Magazine 315, which has updated many of the old Campaign settings?, in this case the specific question would have been on Kara-Tur

Shiba Protector isn't from Kara-Tur, it's from Rokugan. But yes, if it's the main 3.5 update for 3.0 material, it's allowed by Iron Chef rules.

[Sian]

it is a 3.5 update for 2ad&d ...

and while Shiba protector aren't in the Kara-Tur part, all the other clan-specific classes are as far as i can glance

[Heliomance]

it is a 3.5 update for 2ad&d ...


Then no, that's essentially new 3.5 content, and is not allowed.

[Darrin]

Uh... all those feats have been changed.


Whoops. I was looking at the table of replacement feats on page 39, and didn't see any Phoenix feats mentioned. Sorry, I should have read through the article more carefully.

Here's a brief summary of changes to the Phoenix Ancestor feats:

Discipline: +2 bonus on Concentration and Will saves.
Great Diplomat: likely banned, as this is too similar to Leadership.
Keen Intellect: Use Int bonus instead of Wis bonus for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, and Will saves.
Oni's Bane: +3 bonus on checks to beat an outsider's SR, on Spellcraft checks to cast a divine spell in the Shadowlands, and on opposed Charisma checks to control an oni summoned via planar binding.
Scholar of Nature: +2 bonus on Knowledge (Nature), Survival, and Heal.
Spellcaster Support: make an aid another check to add +1 caster level to an ally's spell, and an ally casting a spell in your threatened area does not provoke an AoO.

[Sian]

could a call please be made on variant humans and other Humanoid [Human] races?

[Curmudgeon]

could a call please be made on variant humans and other Humanoid [Human] races?
You've listed a race (Human) and a type and subtype (Humanoid (human)). These are three different categories. The names being the same or similar makes for a bit of confusion, but the categories are distinct. The requirement for the SI is racial, so that's the only category which matters. Your type and subtype could be Fey (extraplanar) and that wouldn't matter as long as you satisfied the "Race: Human (Phoenix)" entry requirement. On the other hand, being Humanoid (human) won't help if your race is something other than Human.

That's the RAW: the entry requirement is one of race, so the type/subtype stuff doesn't either help or hinder. It'll have to be up to our esteemed Chair to decide if she wants to exclude Human sub-races.

[Sian]

You've listed a race (Human) and a type and subtype Humanoid (human). These are three different categories. The names being the same or similar makes for a bit of confusion, but the categories are distinct.

The point i'm making is that its generally accepted that say Half-elves or one of the gazillion variant Elves races all qualify for Prestige Classes asking for Race = Elf as they are Humanoid (Elf), so I'm simply trying to figure out exactly where the line between accepted and unaccepted is ... is it between Core Humans and everything else, is it between Variant Humans that call back to "As Human but this" such as Azurin or Silverbrow, or is it everything that (semi-retroactively) have gotten Humanoid (Human) Such as Half-elf (Humanoid [Elf]), Half-orc (Humanoid [Orc]) or say Lesser Planetouched (Humanoid [Planetouched]) which previous to Races of Destiny wouldn't have Humanoid (Human), even if they all had at least just as much human ancestry as they had whatever else.

And even then i've can't remember ever having seen a clearcut acceptence of the last one, unless you either pay a feat-tax (Human Heritage) or play with the Variant rule in RoD p150 on Half-Humans and Humanlike Races.

I'm simply looking for clarification, is that so hard to understand?

[Curmudgeon]

The point i'm making is that its generally accepted that say Half-elves or one of the gazillion variant Elves races all qualify for Prestige Classes asking for Race = Elf as they are Humanoid (Elf) ...
Those all qualify based on race, not subtype.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.

[WhamBamSam]

Those all qualify based on race, not subtype.But something like, say, a Star Elf has no elven blood ability. It has the Elf subtype, and it has the word "Elf" in its name. Since it's an example that's unlikely to come up this round, could you clarify your position on what happens when a Star Elf tries to take a PrC requiring Race: Elf?

Is it...
A) The Star Elf qualifies because its name includes the word Elf or B) The Star Elf is somehow not an Elf by race and doesn't qualify?

What about something like a Drow, which is a type of Elf, but doesn't have Elf in its name?

It seems to me that the Elf subtype is the only rational way of determining what is or is not an Elf. Similarly, I would argue very strongly that Humanoid (Human) is the same as Race: Human.

[Darrin]

You've listed a race (Human) and a type and subtype (Humanoid (human)). These are three different categories. The names being the same or similar makes for a bit of confusion, but the categories are distinct. The requirement for the SI is racial, so that's the only category which matters. Your type and subtype could be Fey (extraplanar) and that wouldn't matter as long as you satisfied the "Race: Human (Phoenix)" entry requirement. On the other hand, being Humanoid (human) won't help if your race is something other than Human.

I'm not sure this really answered the question. By your criteria, disregarding any fluff/backstory explanations (and assuming Heliomance leaves this up to the judges), how would you score the following examples:

1) Azurin. Description includes, "Azurins are of human descent and are affected by spells and the like as if they were purely human."

2) Aventi. Description includes, "For all effects related to race, an aventi is considered a human."

3) Neanderthal. Description includes, "For all effects related to race, a Neanderthal is considered a human."

4) Silverbrow Human. Description includes, "identical to the humans described in the Player's Handbook, except as noted below".

5) Illumian. Human subtype, but nothing in the description referring to identical/effects.

6) Mongrelfolk. Human subtype, and some fluff about passing as other races, but Emulate Race (Ex) only applies to UMD checks.

7) Spirit Folk (Bamboo) with the Human Heritage feat.

8) Vanilla Human Half-Dragon with the Human Heritage feat.

9) Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat.

10) Elan permanently polymorphed into a human.

[Sian]

Those all qualify based on race, not subtype.

My whole point is that Elven Blood (to take that example) is an archaic way of showing that they're subtype (Elf), with the usage of Subtype first becoming commonly used somewhere halfway through 3.5 when they started sprewing out sub-races by the dozen, needing a cleaner way to show it. OA, being 3.0 was way before, hence shouldn't be excepted to be up to date jargon-wise

[Deadline]

On the whole race issue, I personally (if I were judging) would go off of Type and Subtype, as that system is relatively well put together. That said, I think the RAW is a little weird here. For example, what race is an Illumian?

Illumians are Humanoid(Human). So if you take a PrC that requires Illumian, can humans get in?

(And before you ask, in my games I put racial subtypes in there, so an Illumian would be a Humanoid(Human, Illumian), but that's definitely a houserule).

[Heliomance]

Okay, having now had a chance to look at Races of Destiny and seen that it claims that giving half-human races the human subtype

means that such races qualify as human for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite for a feat or prestige class, for activating a human-only magic item, for adjudicating effects that treat humans differently from other races, and the like.
I'm going to say that the Human subtype counts as being Human for all intents and purposes. That said, you will need to have a VERY good reason why a non vanilla human is a member of the Phoenix clan, being taught their special techniques.

[Sian]

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/c/cb/AudienceApplauseBnW.gif

[Venger]

That ban is for characters native to Rokugan. To enter Shiba Protector you have to be a Phoenix Clan Human. Phoenix Clan is a noble house native to Rokugan. I don't see how choosing any of those base classes can be other than a failure to qualify.


This is an unnecessarily harsh stance and I would discourage it on two counts: One, it harshly limits the variety of builds we'll see. Two, there are many possible ways and rationales for it to happen. Official verdict from the chair on non-Rokugani classes: You'd better have a damn good reason for it.

wait, so curmudgeon is allowed to slam us for using non-OA classes? we've never done anything like that before, there's nothing in the rules about it, and I don't see a reason to start now. we weren't limited to greyhawk for our greyhawk ingredients, or eberron for our eberron ingredients.

being 3.0, it only has core+its own classes, leaving out a huge amount of options. besides, the rule only applies to people running a rokugon campaign setting, due to the 5 rings adaptation, not to anyone using any of its classes.

I don't like the precedent it sets. it needlessly penalizes contestants and will only serve to make everyone's dishes look the same, especially problematic since we'll also be penalized for resembling one another. I respectfully request you not allow this.

[KrimsonNekros]

wait, so curmudgeon is allowed to slam us for using non-OA classes? we've never done anything like that before, there's nothing in the rules about it, and I don't see a reason to start now. we weren't limited to greyhawk for our greyhawk ingredients, or eberron for our eberron ingredients.

being 3.0, it only has core+its own classes, leaving out a huge amount of options. besides, the rule only applies to people running a rokugon campaign setting, due to the 5 rings adaptation, not to anyone using any of its classes.

I don't like the precedent it sets. it needlessly penalizes contestants and will only serve to make everyone's dishes look the same, especially problematic since we'll also be penalized for resembling one another. I respectfully request you not allow this.

As I recall a penalty has always been assigned for cross setting material.

[Deadline]

wait, so curmudgeon is allowed to slam us for using non-OA classes? we've never done anything like that before, there's nothing in the rules about it, and I don't see a reason to start now. we weren't limited to greyhawk for our greyhawk ingredients, or eberron for our eberron ingredients.

I believe it would fall under that whole cross-setting material thing that several judges use. *shrug* At least you know about it in advance.

[Darrin]

I think the judges have always had wide latitude for their scoring criteria, and I'd like to see that continue, but I think I'm with Venger on this... Background fluff doesn't match the setting material, or cross-setting material doesn't match, that's fine, deduct points for that. But FTQ (and essentially disqualifying the entry) for not following the Rokugan setting fluff? That may be a hashi too far for me.

If we stick to the "cooking" metaphor... I think you'll get more creativity and better-tasting dishes if you allow the full menu of ingredients. I don't see how restricting ingredients to a particular nationality or culture is in keeping with the spirit of the competition.

[Venger]

As I recall a penalty has always been assigned for cross setting material.
no. one or two judges chooses to do this, but there's no rule forcing them to unnecessarily penalize people.


I believe it would fall under that whole cross-setting material thing that several judges use. *shrug* At least you know about it in advance.
a ding for using knowledge to qualify for something because it's eberron while my guy is from thay is merely annoying. disqualifying a dish, as though it were on the same level as someone who used gestalt or bone creature, is something that should not be allowed


I think the judges have always had wide latitude for their scoring criteria, and I'd like to see that continue, but I think I'm with Venger on this... Background fluff doesn't match the setting material, or cross-setting material doesn't match, that's fine, deduct points for that. But FTQ (and essentially disqualifying the entry) for not following the Rokugan setting fluff? That may be a bridge too far for me.
If we stick to the "cooking" metaphor... I think you'll get more creativity and better-tasting dishes if you allow the full menu of ingredients. I don't see how restricting ingredients to a particular nationality or culture is in keeping with the spirit of the competition.
that said, we do have rules in place and they're there for a reason. I'm glad you're with me on this. it sets a bad precedent.

[samduke]

so let me see if I have this all straight.
must be human (phoenix) or you get dinged
must take a base class that is not only in OA but able to be part of Rokugan clan phoenix otherwise you get dinged
use a background that goes along with the whole Rokugan clan phoenix otherwise you get dinged


geez I see 10 judges and 0 entries or 10 entries that all look exactly like each other that will get dinged for being unoriginal...

I don't see a scenario where anyone can get a 5 in any area based on this ...

is that about it?

[Darrin]

that said, we do have rules in place and they're there for a reason. I'm glad you're with me on this. it sets a bad precedent.

Well, maybe I'm being a little too cynical, but even if I disagree with Curmudgeon's criteria...

He's allowed, by the rules, to declare "FTQ" as he sees fit.

I am allowed, by the rules, to argue with him and attempt to change his mind.

And on the gripping hand, I am not going to win that argument.



geez I see 10 judges and 0 entries or 10 entries that all look exactly like each other that will get dinged for being unoriginal...

I don't see a scenario where anyone can get a 5 in any area based on this ...


The problem is only magnified by a small number of judges. With only one judge, then it's very easy to get completely screwed by a difference in opinion over fluff, or a disagreement over a rules interpretation.

More judges should even out the scoring. For example, if I'm judging, I could care less whether you used Paladin, Druid, Artificer, or Red Wizard of Thay in your Rokugan build, all I care about was did you pull off something with flavor. I'm also more likely to overlook questionable rules wankery if you did it with *style*. And when I can figure out how to do the judging so it doesn't take up 3-4 whole days, then I'll do it more often.

[Venger]

Well, maybe I'm being a little too cynical, but even if I disagree with Curmudgeon's criteria...

He's allowed, by the rules, to declare "FTQ" as he sees fit.

I am allowed, by the rules, to argue with him.

And on the gripping hand, I am not going to win that argument.

see, the thing is there are rules for what judges can and can't do, and exclude legal content is one of them. a judge can't say "you used a feat from CArc. minus points." this is no different. you can't fail to qualify unless you actually... fail to qualify.

well, fortunately, we don't have to argue with curmudgeon. the book says "these classes" so he says "these classes." fortunately, we don't have to, we just need to wait for heliomance to enforce the rules of iron chef, as ever.

[Kesnit]

so let me see if I have this all straight.
must be human (phoenix) or you get dinged
must take a base class that is not only in OA but able to be part of Rokugan clan phoenix otherwise you get dinged

Er... No. That isn't what is at issue. OA only bans Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Wizard. It says nothing about any other base class. Curmudgeon's comment was made in reference to a question about those specific classes. I read Helio's comment the same way - you'd better have a good reason to take classes that explicitly do not exist in Rokugan.

[Heliomance]

wait, so curmudgeon is allowed to slam us for using non-OA classes? we've never done anything like that before, there's nothing in the rules about it, and I don't see a reason to start now. we weren't limited to greyhawk for our greyhawk ingredients, or eberron for our eberron ingredients.

being 3.0, it only has core+its own classes, leaving out a huge amount of options. besides, the rule only applies to people running a rokugon campaign setting, due to the 5 rings adaptation, not to anyone using any of its classes.

I don't like the precedent it sets. it needlessly penalizes contestants and will only serve to make everyone's dishes look the same, especially problematic since we'll also be penalized for resembling one another. I respectfully request you not allow this.

Rokugan, unlike other campaign settings, has an explicit list of classes that simply are not found in the country. Shiba protector is the secret teachings of one particular Rokugani clan. I have disallowed simply calling using a banned class a FTQ, which I actually think is quite generous - using a class explicitly called out as banned will not totally wreck your entry. I'm not going to stop Curmudgeon (or any other judge) from giving you a hefty ding, though, if you use material that specifically and explicitly does not exist in the setting without a very good reason as to why.

[dysprosium]

Well this round sure looks like it will be interesting . . .

I hope to be able to enter this one.

[Deadasadoor]

As I seem to be in a bit of an Iron Chef slump (my last few dishes have all been fairly mediocre) and I have little interest in this ingredient due to how restrictive it is, I think I'll be sitting this one out. Good luck to the chefs!

[KrimsonNekros]

Got my idea hacked out for this one, and most of the table done now.

[samduke]

well while I have what could be an entry by the preset conditions outlined I feel that they are to restrictive and makes it nigh impossible to get a score of 5 so I am not going to build this round, do not think I would judge either as this SI is ripe for disputes. so sitting it out to see if the next one is this crazy.

[Venger]

against my better judgement, I am going to cook.

[Zaq]

Just so we're all on the same page, "Expertise" means Combat Expertise, right?

Not convinced I'm going to cook this round (the harsh restrictions on classes kind of threaten to suck all the fun out of this, especially if it's any indication of what the judging is going to be like), but in the event that I get inspired, I want to make sure that I'm working with the same assumptions about the prereqs as everyone else is.

[Venger]

Just so we're all on the same page, "Expertise" means Combat Expertise, right?

Not convinced I'm going to cook this round (the harsh restrictions on classes kind of threaten to suck all the fun out of this, especially if it's any indication of what the judging is going to be like), but in the event that I get inspired, I want to make sure that I'm working with the same assumptions about the prereqs as everyone else is.

yah, expertise was updated to combat expertise in the 3.0>3.5 transition, which is in play with all OA material in iron chef, including the SI.

probably a good call, all things considered. this ingredient is killing me.

[Heliomance]

Just so we're all on the same page, "Expertise" means Combat Expertise, right?

Not convinced I'm going to cook this round (the harsh restrictions on classes kind of threaten to suck all the fun out of this, especially if it's any indication of what the judging is going to be like), but in the event that I get inspired, I want to make sure that I'm working with the same assumptions about the prereqs as everyone else is.

Yes, it does.

[dysprosium]

Looking back I don't think that I have ever been critiqued by Curmudgeon before. Assuming I can get my entry in on time, this would be the first time.

[Vaz]

if I can come up with a good enough story, then yes I will emter.

Are the Rokugan books for 3.0/3.5 available for use with this? And in regards to Samurai, does it matter which are used; OA or CW, or are they considered two seperate classes sharing the same name?

[Heliomance]

if I can come up with a good enough story, then yes I will emter.

Are the Rokugan books for 3.0/3.5 available for use with this? And in regards to Samurai, does it matter which are used; OA or CW, or are they considered two seperate classes sharing the same name?

No, the Rokugan books other than Oriental Adventures are third party and thus not allowed. As for the Samurai, I personally don't mind, but I suspect that the RAW is that the CW version, sharing its name with the OA version, is the offical update, and thus the OA version doesn't exist. Curmudgeon, is that correct?

[Darrin]

As for the Samurai, I personally don't mind, but I suspect that the RAW is that the CW version, sharing its name with the OA version, is the offical update, and thus the OA version doesn't exist. Curmudgeon, is that correct?

Before Curmudgeon weighs in... Complete Warrior was printed in December 2003. Dragon Magazine #318 was printed in April 2004. There is text in the Dragon article to update the Samurai class, which suggests a change to the Ancestral Daisho ability so that a 4th level Samurai wielding his katana/wakizashi can consider his attacks "honorable" to bypass the DR of certain creatures. Since this class ability only exists on the OA Samurai, then I would consider this a clear indication that the designers intended the OA Samurai to be used in the Rokugan setting rather than the Complete Warrior version.

[dysprosium]

I was going to say that if I remembered correctly that the Dragon update for Oriental Adventures had something about the Samurai class, which would imply that the two classes are distinctly different.

Darrin had the specifics at the ready though.

[Curmudgeon]

Before Curmudgeon weighs in... Complete Warrior was printed in December 2003. Dragon Magazine #318 was printed in April 2004. There is text in the Dragon article to update the Samurai class, which suggests a change to the Ancestral Daisho ability so that a 4th level Samurai wielding his katana/wakizashi can consider his attacks "honorable" to bypass the DR of certain creatures. Since this class ability only exists on the OA Samurai, then I would consider this a clear indication that the designers intended the OA Samurai to be used in the Rokugan setting rather than the Complete Warrior version.
The D&D authors tended to reuse names, with context providing the distinction. For instance, there is an Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedCombatReflexes) feat, and also an Improved Combat Reflexes feat (Dragon # 340, page 87). While the Samurai (Rokugan) was updated after the Samurai (Complete Warrior, pages 8-11), the Shugenja (Rokugan) was updated before the Shugenja (Complete Divine, pages 10-14). There's a Mountebank base class (Dragon Compendium, pages 42-45) and a Mountebank prestige class (Complete Scoundrel, pages 57-60).

There's no general rule about what to do here. The later update for the Rokugan Samurai would clear that class for use in a Rokugan setting, whereas the Rokugan-specific language in the class would make it clash in other settings. However, the Rokugan Shugenja being updated before the Complete Divine Shugenja would make the Rokugan Shugenja iffy even in Rokugan. (The CD Shugenja has language suggesting it's best suited to Oriental settings like Rokugan.)

[Amphetryon]

Clearly, someone needs to go OA Samurai/CW Samurai/SI 10/Master Samurai

[Darrin]

There's no general rule about what to do here.

You don't appear to be endorsing any particular interpretation. Are you saying that both Samurai classes, so long as they are properly identified, and cross-campaign issues are adequately explained/supported in the backstory, would be legal and not incur a penalty?

[dysprosium]

Clearly, someone needs to go OA Samurai/CW Samurai/SI 10/Master Samurai

You took my idea!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Curmudgeon]

You don't appear to be endorsing any particular interpretation. Are you saying that both Samurai classes, so long as they are properly identified, and cross-campaign issues are adequately explained/supported in the backstory, would be legal and not incur a penalty?
Because there's no general rule to handle this update case (setting-specific class followed by general class followed by setting-specific class update), you could justify use of either Samurai in Rokugan (but not both in the same character, as Amphetryon sarcastically helpfully pointed out). However, mixing content from multiple settings might be penalized in the Elegance category, even with explanations; that's up to each individual judge* to decide. I personally wouldn't do so, but I put the bar for adequate explanation moderately high. If you've got a simple build I don't require any story. If you need to include a story, you should make it both readable and worth reading.

* - Just because I've volunteered to judge is no reason for everyone else to give this a pass. I think a competition is better with multiple judges. Come on, you slackers! Now would be the perfect time to list judging criteria at cross-purposes to mine, and give all the contestants headaches! :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

* - Just because I've volunteered to judge is no reason for everyone else to give this a pass. I think a competition is better with multiple judges. Come on, you slackers! Now would be the perfect time to list judging criteria at cross-purposes to mine, and give all the contestants headaches! :smallbiggrin:

Joking aside, this is the reason I don't think we're gonna have any judges besides Darrin. people are unlikely to judge when they think their opinions will be counteracted. (no judgements, just a prediction)

[A_S]

Eh, screw it. I'm in to judge; I've always meant to and I got no big time-consuming plans for the near future.

-----

Criteria:

Each category will start with a default score of 3.0. Bonuses will be added to this based on exceptionally good features; penalties will accrue based on problems. Generally, the size of bonuses/penalties for a single feature will range from +/-0.25 for minor features, to +/-1.0 for SICK TRICKS or plan-derailing flaws; there may be exceptions for extreme cases.

Does the build use classes or races that are unexpected?
Does the build showcase a trick, synergy, etc. that I haven't seen before?
Is the build overly reliant on "known cheese?" Builds won't be penalized for taking strong options just because they're commonly taken (e.g., I'm not taking points away from stealth builds for taking Darkstalker), but if your only tricks are well known optimization staples, expect penalties.
Note: I will not be penalizing based on how many of a given race or class appear in this particular competition.
Is the build a mechanically effective example of its general build type? Power will be judged according to what kind of character the build is (so Wizard builds will be judged relative to other Wizards, while chargers will be judged relative to other charger builds).
Is the build overly reliant on resources it may not have access to (e.g., frequent rests to constantly use nova powers, specific equipment that may not be available, etc.)?
Can the build meaningfully contribute to gameplay when its favorite tricks aren't appropriate?
Note: Please (briefly) explain how your tricks work to me! I might be able to immediately see the synergy among all your build choices, but then again, I might not. You're likely to have the power of your build reckoned higher if you make sure I know what's so good about combining X and Y.
Do the class levels, feats, etc. line up nicely? Bonuses may be applied for builds where everything fits together neatly; penalties may result from, e.g., feats taken many levels before they become useful.
Does the build qualify for everything it takes? Expect a penalty for each failure to qualify (but see also Use of the Secret Ingredient if you don't qualify for that).
Does the build rely on any questionable rules interpretations? If so, it may accrue penalties accordingly. Convincingly making the case for the required rules interpretation (or arguing why the build is still functional under different interpretations) may reduce or eliminate these penalties.
Does the fluff line up with the crunch? Is the build you serve actually good at the things that the character is presented as being good at in their fluff?
Does the build use material designed for mutually exclusive settings? Note that just coming from a setting-specific source book won't necessarily trigger this penalty, but actually setting-specific material (e.g., using both Dragonmarks and Initiate of Mystra) will.
Is the presentation and fluff exceptionally good? I won't be penalizing based on missing or poor fluff, but small bonuses may be awarded for particularly good fluff.
Note: I will not be penalizing for dipping or for multiclass XP penalties.
Does the build take all levels of the secret ingredient? No bonus will be awarded for doing so, but penalties will be assigned for not doing so. By default, these penalties will be -.25 for missing 1-2 levels, -.5 for missing 3-4 levels, and -1 for missing 5 or more levels. However, these penalties may be reduced or negated if an argument is made for why skipping those levels helps your build use the secret ingredient better than it would otherwise have been able to.
Do you make good use of the class features of the secret ingredient? Did you just use them as obviously intended, or have you found other stuff to combine them with that makes them shine more than they do on their own?
Do you make good use of the requirements of the secret ingredient? Did you find a silver lining in the things you had to use as prerequisites, or are they just sitting around in your build for qualification purposes and then ignored?
Note: Any build which fails to qualify for the secret ingredient will automatically receive a score of 1 in this category, regardless of other factors.
Specific rulings for this competition: I will consider Humanoid (Human) races to qualify as human for purposes of meeting prerequisites. By my reading, the relevant verbiage from the second paragraph in the variant rule sidebar on p.150 of Races of Destiny refers to general rules, not to part of the variant rule described in that sidebar; essentially, I agree with Piggy Knowles' interpretation here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15160164&postcount=42). I understand that Curmudgeon disagrees; such is life. *edit* Already ruled on by the chairperson.
The secret ingredient is, itself, Rokugan-specific material. Thus, using any of the base classes which are banned in the Rokugan setting will constitute material from multiple settings, and will be penalized accordingly under Elegance. However, I will not be considering it a failure to qualify for the secret ingredient, as I consider this a fluff conflict rather than a mechanical failure to meet prerequisites.

[Venger]

Eh, screw it. I'm in to judge; I've always meant to and I got no big time-consuming plans for the near future.
great, thanks a million, criteria look great. thanks for not slamming us in the originality for doubling on race in a race specific ingredient. and classes too. since the competition's anonymous, I never really agreed with that, so it's nice to see a judge have a similar interpretation

re: power, you mention undue reliance on equipment.

does this mean the iron chef standard of "your character is naked at all times, if you mention so much as a +stat item, you have ruined your chances of medaling" or is it less stringent? I want to know where the line falls for you, if you'd be so kind. what is undue in your evaluation?

what level of explanation of tricks/combos would you like? in my earlier work, I tended to make my strategy writeups too long, so people wouldn't read them. is just a mention good, or would you prefer a step-by-step thing or something else?

I can't think of a way to ask this without sounding stupid, so I'll just throw it out there:
what do you mean by "fluff/crunch must line up" do we need to mention all our feats in our story? should we not mention any fluff thing our guy can't do? do you mean we should stick with the suggested setting? (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_E-1UW-S4zb8/R6S9KBh1-bI/AAAAAAAAAag/Sx4reqkTGN8/s320/Maruchan+Ramen+-+Oriental+Flavor+Package.jpg) something else?



Specific rulings for this competition:[list] I will consider Humanoid (Human) races to qualify as human for purposes of meeting prerequisites. By my reading, the relevant verbiage from the second paragraph in the variant rule sidebar on p.150 of Races of Destiny refers to general rules, not to part of the variant rule described in that sidebar; essentially, I agree with Piggy Knowles' interpretation here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15160164&postcount=42). I understand that Curmudgeon disagrees; such is life.

psst, the chair ruled that this is the case already:

Okay, having now had a chance to look at Races of Destiny and seen that it claims that giving half-human races the human subtype

I'm going to say that the Human subtype counts as being Human for all intents and purposes. That said, you will need to have a VERY good reason why a non vanilla human is a member of the Phoenix clan, being taught their special techniques.

so don't worry, no one will be dinged for this

uotsi's gonna be rough this round since almost everything is passive.

[A_S]

Thanks for the feedback, Venger.

re: power, you mention undue reliance on equipment.

does this mean the iron chef standard of "your character is naked at all times, if you mention so much as a +stat item, you have ruined your chances of medaling" or is it less stringent? I want to know where the line falls for you, if you'd be so kind. what is undue in your evaluation?
Nothing so scary as assumption of constant nudity! D&D is balanced around WBL; I assume characters have access to a reasonable variety of equipment at most times. I would penalize builds that require extremely specific or not-quite-RAW equipment to function.

For instance, back in the day, I remember a build whose main schtick was projecting itself through a pair of Ring Gates. If it didn't have access to a pair of Ring Gates, its main tricks didn't work. That build would receive a penalty in Power from me. So would a build whose main trick relied on hitting epic skill check DC's that could only be met reliably if the DM OK'ed a custom Competence bonus skill item.

If a build is so non-reliant on equipment that it's able to do everything it does naked, that level of adaptability might merit a bonus in Power. But I'm not going to be penalizing sword-fighters for needing a sword, or spellcasters for needing a component pouch.


what level of explanation of tricks/combos would you like? in my earlier work, I tended to make my strategy writeups too long, so people wouldn't read them. is just a mention good, or would you prefer a step-by-step thing or something else?
I'm not sure I can give a catch-all answer to this one; it's going to depend on the trick. If it's something very simple, like "I have a bunch of ways to apply fear effects, and stacking fear effects is good," then a sentence plus a list of the things that go together is probably enough. If the trick only works because of an interaction between obscure rule wordings that I might not know about, it might merit a couple paragraphs worth of explanation (like, if I didn't already know how the d2 Crusader worked, that's the kind of thing that would probably need some explanatory text).

I probably don't need pages and pages of text, though. Something between a sentence and a paragraph or two for a given trick should suffice. Even just a couple bullet points for totally obvious tricks.


I can't think of a way to ask this without sounding stupid, so I'll just throw it out there:
what do you mean by "fluff/crunch must line up" do we need to mention all our feats in our story? should we not mention any fluff thing our guy can't do? do you mean we should stick with the suggested setting? (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_E-1UW-S4zb8/R6S9KBh1-bI/AAAAAAAAAag/Sx4reqkTGN8/s320/Maruchan+Ramen+-+Oriental+Flavor+Package.jpg) something else?
I mean that the build as presented should be mechanically good at the things that the character is presented as being good at in the fluff. So, if you tell me a story about a master swordsman, you should serve up a build that is exceptionally good at dealing damage with a sword. If your story is about a holy man so pure and wise that the elements themselves willingly serve his whim, then he'd better be able to do some cool elemental magic. Basically, don't repeat the mistake of the Monk class, and make a badass martial artist who is actually terrible at martial arts.


psst, the chair ruled that this is the case already:
Whoops, I missed that ruling! Thanks for the update.

-----

Updating my criteria post to be a little clearer about this stuff now.

[Venger]

Thanks for the feedback, Venger.
happy to do it. thanks for taking it so well, I really appreciate it.


Nothing so scary as assumption of constant nudity! D&D is balanced around WBL; I assume characters have access to a reasonable variety of equipment at most times. I would penalize builds that require extremely specific or not-quite-RAW equipment to function.
god I wish that were the case. I've gotten slammed many times early on for not having a naked ability high enough to take a feat or similar, because apparently +stat items are something that you can't reasonably be expected to buy for your governing stat. oh, okay, great, thanks.


For instance, back in the day, I remember a build whose main schtick was projecting itself through a pair of Ring Gates. If it didn't have access to a pair of Ring Gates, its main tricks didn't work. That build would receive a penalty in Power from me. So would a build whose main trick relied on hitting epic skill check DC's that could only be met reliably if the DM OK'ed a custom Competence bonus skill item.
gross. well don't worry (spoiler alert: my dish won't do any of those things)


If a build is so non-reliant on equipment that it's able to do everything it does naked, that level of adaptability might merit a bonus in Power. But I'm not going to be penalizing sword-fighters for needing a sword, or spellcasters for needing a component pouch.

that's at best unlikely with a mundane ingredient, but good to know.



I'm not sure I can give a catch-all answer to this one; it's going to depend on the trick. If it's something very simple, like "I have a bunch of ways to apply fear effects, and stacking fear effects is good," then a sentence plus a list of the things that go together is probably enough. If the trick only works because of an interaction between obscure rule wordings that I might not know about, it might merit a couple paragraphs worth of explanation (like, if I didn't already know how the d2 Crusader worked, that's the kind of thing that would probably need some explanatory text).

I probably don't need pages and pages of text, though. Something between a sentence and a paragraph or two for a given trick should suffice. Even just a couple bullet points for totally obvious tricks.
fair enough. thanks, that's basically what I needed to know.



I mean that the build as presented should be mechanically good at the things that the character is presented as being good at in the fluff. So, if you tell me a story about a master swordsman, you should serve up a build that is exceptionally good at dealing damage with a sword. If your story is about a holy man so pure and wise that the elements themselves willingly serve his whim, then he'd better be able to do some cool elemental magic. Basically, don't repeat the mistake of the Monk class, and make a badass martial artist who is actually terrible at martial arts.
oh, okay, great. you understand why I wanted to ask, right? it's just hard to phrase it right. sounds reasonable to me.



Whoops, I missed that ruling! Thanks for the update.

-----
Updating my criteria post to be a little clearer about this stuff now.
sure thing!I want you up to date, and I know these threads move fast.

[A_S]

The Ring Gate build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15129854&postcount=268) was actually super cool, but I'd still have had to penalize it :smallyuk: .

[Occasional Sage]

And on the gripping hand, I am not going to win that argument.


Thank you for that. Motie references need to happen more.

[Venger]

The Ring Gate build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15129854&postcount=268) was actually super cool, but I'd still have had to penalize it :smallyuk: .

nothing in the world is more heartbreaking to me than looking at old iron chef dishes and seeing all the tables being broken.

[A_S]

nothing in the world is more heartbreaking to me than looking at old iron chef dishes and seeing all the tables being broken.

I knoooooooooowwwwwwww........

*gross cry*

[Venger]

I knoooooooooowwwwwwww........

*gross cry*

Let's make that a goal by the end of the year. same as how ponies did the archive.

maybe we could just do it by request (at least at first) for greats like gazebo jones or whoever since there are billions of dishes. we could break it up on a volunteer basis and assign people to rounds like the dysfunctional rules handbook thread.

[A_S]

Let's make that a goal by the end of the year. same as how ponies did the archive.

maybe we could just do it by request (at least at first) for greats like gazebo jones or whoever since there are billions of dishes. we could break it up on a volunteer basis and assign people to rounds like the dysfunctional rules handbook thread.
I could actually probably write a script that would convert old tables into new tables. If it turns out to be too much of a pain, we can always man-hour it up. But the automated route is at least worth looking into. I'll get back to you.

*edit* Done with the quick and dirty version. PM'ing you.

[Darrin]

I could actually probably write a script that would convert old tables into new tables. If it turns out to be too much of a pain, we can always man-hour it up. But the automated route is at least worth looking into. I'll get back to you.

*edit* Done with the quick and dirty version. PM'ing you.

If we're going to fix all the old entries... should we post those to the original thread or start a new thread? Probably something we should clarify with the Mods.

[Amphetryon]

If we're going to fix all the old entries... should we post those to the original thread or start a new thread? Probably something we should clarify with the Mods.

My first instinct would be to start a single Build Compilation thread of all the old entries, to avoid any issues with thread necromancy. I know Mr. Ponies has a spreadsheet collecting them and a HoF, but I believe the HoF fell by the wayside due to Daemon Real Life.

[OMG PONIES]

god I wish that were the case. I've gotten slammed many times early on for not having a naked ability high enough to take a feat or similar, because apparently +stat items are something that you can't reasonably be expected to buy for your governing stat. oh, okay, great, thanks.

I may have been one of the judges in question. I'd say there's a difference between buying a +stat item for your governing stat and requiring a +stat item to ensure you qualify for something. :smallconfused: Neither here nor there, though.


I could actually probably write a script that would convert old tables into new tables. If it turns out to be too much of a pain, we can always man-hour it up. But the automated route is at least worth looking into. I'll get back to you.

*edit* Done with the quick and dirty version. PM'ing you.

One already exists (http://makaze-kanra.tumblr.com/ForumTableConverter). Pop the old table in and change the first { into a [, then click and presto-change-o.


My first instinct would be to start a single Build Compilation thread of all the old entries, to avoid any issues with thread necromancy. I know Mr. Ponies has a spreadsheet collecting them and a HoF, but I believe the HoF fell by the wayside due to Daemon Real Life.

Forsooth. It's still out there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276993-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-Hall-of-Heroes-(Under-Construction)) if anybody's looking for a hobby. I found the spreadsheet is already enough to keep me busy. If anyone wants to complete the info for one of the rounds I've already reserved PM it to me and I can edit it into the existing thread. When it comes to new content, I'd have to check w/ the mods.

[Venger]

I could actually probably write a script that would convert old tables into new tables. If it turns out to be too much of a pain, we can always man-hour it up. But the automated route is at least worth looking into. I'll get back to you.

*edit* Done with the quick and dirty version. PM'ing you.

Looks great. I'll start a thread after work and we can see about getting started.


If we're going to fix all the old entries... should we post those to the original thread or start a new thread? Probably something we should clarify with the Mods.

New thread is probably best since some of the old threads are locked.

[A_S]

One already exists (http://makaze-kanra.tumblr.com/ForumTableConverter). Pop the old table in and change the first { into a [, then click and presto-change-o.
That one appears to be broken, unless I'm doing something wrong. Starting with this, from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15129854&postcount=268):

{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Totemist 1|
+0
|
+2
|
+2
|
+0
|Knowledge (Local) 4, Listen 4, Gather Information 4, Diplomacy 2, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 2, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2|Mercantile Background, Able Learner|Wild Empathy, Illiteracy

2nd|Totemist 2|
+1
|
+3
|
+3
|
+0
|Knowledge (Local) 5, Listen 5, Gather Information 5, Diplomacy 2, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 2, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1||Totem Chakra Bind (+1 capacity)

3rd|Chaos Incarnate 1|
+1
|
+5
|
+3
|
+2
|Knowledge (Local) 6, Listen 5, Gather Information 6, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 3, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1|Wild Cohort (Riding Dog)|Aura, detect opposition

4th|Warlock 1|
+1
|
+5
|
+3
|
+4
|Knowledge (Local) 7, Listen 5, Gather Information 7, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 3, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 4, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1||Eldritch blast 1d6, invocation (least)

5th|Warlock 2|
+2
|
+5
|
+3
|
+5
|Knowledge (Local) 8, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 4, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1||Detect magic

6th|Warlock 3|
+2
|
+6
|
+4
|
+5
|Knowledge (Local) 9, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 5, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1|Imperious Command|Damage reduction 1/cold iron, eldritch blast 2d6

7th|Warlock 4|
+3
|
+6
|
+4
|
+6
|Knowledge (Local) 9, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 5, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1||Deceive item

8th|Warlock 5|
+3
|
+6
|
+4
|
+6
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 8, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1||Eldritch blast 3d6

9th|Warlock 6|
+4
|
+7
|
+5
|
+7
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Spot 2, Intimidate 9, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1|Landlord|New invocation (least or lesser)

10th|Urban Soul 1|
+4
|
+9
|
+7
|
+7
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Spot 5, Intimidate 13, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 3, Spellcraft 1||City ramparts 1/day, urban sustenance

11th|Urban Soul 2|
+5
|
+10
|
+8
|
+7
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 7, Bluff 7, Spot 6, Intimidate 14, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1||Citybred senses +2

12th|Urban Soul 3|
+6
|
+10
|
+8
|
+8
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 9, Diplomacy 9, Bluff 9, Spot 8, Intimidate 15, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1|Bonus Essentia|Meld into city

13th|Urban Soul 4|
+7
|
+11
|
+9
|
+8
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 9, Diplomacy 11, Bluff 11, Spot 11, Intimidate 16, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1||See the city

14th|Urban Soul 5|
+7
|
+11
|
+9
|
+8
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 13, Bluff 13, Spot 13, Intimidate 17, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1||City ramparts 2/day

15th|Urban Soul 6|
+8
|
+12
|
+10
|
+9
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 13, Bluff 13, Spot 13, Intimidate 18, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 12, Spellcraft 1|Darkstalker|Citybred senses +4, urban skill mastery

16th|Urban Soul 7|
+8
|
+12
|
+10
|
+9
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 15, Bluff 14, Spot 14, Intimidate 19, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 15, Spellcraft 1||Hear the city 1/day

17th|Urban Soul 8|
+9
|
+13
|
+11
|
+9
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 11, Diplomacy 16, Bluff 16, Spot 16, Intimidate 20, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 16, Spellcraft 1||Mob violence

18th|Urban Soul 9|
+9
|
+13
|
+11
|
+10
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 12, Diplomacy 18, Bluff 18, Spot 17, Intimidate 21, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 17, Spellcraft 1|Ability Focus (Basilisk Mask)|City ramparts 3/day

19th|Urban Soul 10|
+10
|
+14
|
+12
|
+10
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 14, Diplomacy 19, Bluff 19, Spot 19, Intimidate 22, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 18, Spellcraft 1||Citybred senses +6, hear the city 2/day, citywalk

20th|Chaos Incarnate 2|
+11
|
+15
|
+12
|
+11
|Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 14, Diplomacy 20, Bluff 20, Spot 20, Intimidate 23, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 18, Spellcraft 1||Chakra bind (crown)[/table]
...it's giving me this:



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Totemist 1



+0






+2






+2






+0



Knowledge (Local) 4, Listen 4, Gather Information 4, Diplomacy 2, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 2, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2
Mercantile Background, Able Learner
Wild Empathy, Illiteracy


2nd
Totemist 2



+1






+3






+3






+0



Knowledge (Local) 5, Listen 5, Gather Information 5, Diplomacy 2, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 2, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Totem Chakra Bind (+1 capacity)


3rd
Chaos Incarnate 1



+1






+5






+3






+2



Knowledge (Local) 6, Listen 5, Gather Information 6, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 3, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1
Wild Cohort (Riding Dog)
Aura, detect opposition


4th
Warlock 1



+1






+5






+3






+4



Knowledge (Local) 7, Listen 5, Gather Information 7, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 3, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 4, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Eldritch blast 1d6, invocation (least)


5th
Warlock 2



+2






+5






+3






+5



Knowledge (Local) 8, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 4, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Detect magic


6th
Warlock 3



+2






+6






+4






+5



Knowledge (Local) 9, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 5, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1
Imperious Command
Damage reduction 1/cold iron, eldritch blast 2d6


7th
Warlock 4



+3






+6






+4






+6



Knowledge (Local) 9, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 5, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Deceive item


8th
Warlock 5



+3






+6






+4






+6



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 8, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Eldritch blast 3d6


9th
Warlock 6



+4






+7






+5






+7



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Spot 2, Intimidate 9, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1
Landlord
New invocation (least or lesser)


10th
Urban Soul 1



+4






+9






+7






+7



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Spot 5, Intimidate 13, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 3, Spellcraft 1

City ramparts 1/day, urban sustenance


11th
Urban Soul 2



+5






+10






+8






+7



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 7, Bluff 7, Spot 6, Intimidate 14, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1

Citybred senses +2


12th
Urban Soul 3



+6






+10






+8






+8



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 9, Diplomacy 9, Bluff 9, Spot 8, Intimidate 15, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1
Bonus Essentia
Meld into city


13th
Urban Soul 4



+7






+11






+9






+8



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 9, Diplomacy 11, Bluff 11, Spot 11, Intimidate 16, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1

See the city


14th
Urban Soul 5



+7






+11






+9






+8



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 13, Bluff 13, Spot 13, Intimidate 17, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1

City ramparts 2/day


15th
Urban Soul 6



+8






+12






+10






+9



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 13, Bluff 13, Spot 13, Intimidate 18, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 12, Spellcraft 1
Darkstalker
Citybred senses +4, urban skill mastery


16th
Urban Soul 7



+8






+12






+10






+9



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 15, Bluff 14, Spot 14, Intimidate 19, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 15, Spellcraft 1

Hear the city 1/day


17th
Urban Soul 8



+9






+13






+11






+9



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 11, Diplomacy 16, Bluff 16, Spot 16, Intimidate 20, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 16, Spellcraft 1

Mob violence


18th
Urban Soul 9



+9






+13






+11






+10



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 12, Diplomacy 18, Bluff 18, Spot 17, Intimidate 21, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 17, Spellcraft 1
Ability Focus (Basilisk Mask)
City ramparts 3/day


19th
Urban Soul 10



+10






+14






+12






+10



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 14, Diplomacy 19, Bluff 19, Spot 19, Intimidate 22, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 18, Spellcraft 1

Citybred senses +6, hear the city 2/day, citywalk


20th
Chaos Incarnate 2



+11






+15






+12






+11



Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 14, Diplomacy 20, Bluff 20, Spot 20, Intimidate 23, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 18, Spellcraft 1

Chakra bind (crown)


I think it might work on the actual code that you put into your posts for the old tables, but we currently only have access to the text that appears in the Chairperson's posts after they go up, which include a whole bunch of extra newlines that are messing things up. Unless Kuulvheysoon, Amph, et al feel like going back, clicking the edit button on every one of their old posts, and putting the contents into a text dump for us to work with, which sounds...tedious. And even then it won't work on any threads that have been locked.

Can anyone else get the one PONIES posted to work?

Here (http://pastebin.com/cvXf9gDf)'s mine, but I haven't made it do anything fancy like accept input via a web interface yet; it just works with text copy+pasted to .txt files, running on Python locally.

[A_S]

Okay, now it plays nice with the internet, thanks to the magic of Trinket.

Here (https://trinket.io/python/afece59bcc)'s my converter. Paste the garbled code from an old table in a post into the right-hand box (where it says "Paste text of old table here") and hit enter. Then copy all the black text below your input from that same right-hand box. That'll be the code for a table like this one:



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Totemist 1
+0
+2
+2
+0
Knowledge (Local) 4, Listen 4, Gather Information 4, Diplomacy 2, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 2, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2
Mercantile Background, Able Learner
Wild Empathy, Illiteracy


2nd
Totemist 2
+1
+3
+3
+0
Knowledge (Local) 5, Listen 5, Gather Information 5, Diplomacy 2, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 2, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Totem Chakra Bind (+1 capacity)


3rd
Chaos Incarnate 1
+1
+5
+3
+2
Knowledge (Local) 6, Listen 5, Gather Information 6, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 3, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 2, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1
Wild Cohort (Riding Dog)
Aura, detect opposition


4th
Warlock 1
+1
+5
+3
+4
Knowledge (Local) 7, Listen 5, Gather Information 7, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 3, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 4, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Eldritch blast 1d6, invocation (least)


5th
Warlock 2
+2
+5
+3
+5
Knowledge (Local) 8, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 3, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 4, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Detect magic


6th
Warlock 3
+2
+6
+4
+5
Knowledge (Local) 9, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 5, UMD 2, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1
Imperious Command
Damage reduction 1/cold iron, eldritch blast 2d6


7th
Warlock 4
+3
+6
+4
+6
Knowledge (Local) 9, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 5, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Deceive item


8th
Warlock 5
+3
+6
+4
+6
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 2, Spot 2, Intimidate 8, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1

Eldritch blast 3d6


9th
Warlock 6
+4
+7
+5
+7
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Spot 2, Intimidate 9, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 2, Spellcraft 1
Landlord
New invocation (least or lesser)


10th
Urban Soul 1
+4
+9
+7
+7
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 5, Bluff 5, Spot 5, Intimidate 13, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 3, Spellcraft 1

City ramparts 1/day, urban sustenance


11th
Urban Soul 2
+5
+10
+8
+7
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 8, Diplomacy 7, Bluff 7, Spot 6, Intimidate 14, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1

Citybred senses +2


12th
Urban Soul 3
+6
+10
+8
+8
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 9, Diplomacy 9, Bluff 9, Spot 8, Intimidate 15, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1
Bonus Essentia
Meld into city


13th
Urban Soul 4
+7
+11
+9
+8
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 9, Diplomacy 11, Bluff 11, Spot 11, Intimidate 16, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1

See the city


14th
Urban Soul 5
+7
+11
+9
+8
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 13, Bluff 13, Spot 13, Intimidate 17, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 5, Spellcraft 1

City ramparts 2/day


15th
Urban Soul 6
+8
+12
+10
+9
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 13, Bluff 13, Spot 13, Intimidate 18, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 12, Spellcraft 1
Darkstalker
Citybred senses +4, urban skill mastery


16th
Urban Soul 7
+8
+12
+10
+9
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 10, Diplomacy 15, Bluff 14, Spot 14, Intimidate 19, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 15, Spellcraft 1

Hear the city 1/day


17th
Urban Soul 8
+9
+13
+11
+9
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 11, Diplomacy 16, Bluff 16, Spot 16, Intimidate 20, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 16, Spellcraft 1

Mob violence


18th
Urban Soul 9
+9
+13
+11
+10
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 12, Diplomacy 18, Bluff 18, Spot 17, Intimidate 21, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 17, Spellcraft 1
Ability Focus (Basilisk Mask)
City ramparts 3/day


19th
Urban Soul 10
+10
+14
+12
+10
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 14, Diplomacy 19, Bluff 19, Spot 19, Intimidate 22, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 18, Spellcraft 1

Citybred senses +6, hear the city 2/day, citywalk


20th
Chaos Incarnate 2
+11
+15
+12
+11
Knowledge (Local) 10, Listen 5, Gather Information 14, Diplomacy 20, Bluff 20, Spot 20, Intimidate 23, UMD 6, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Move Silently 18, Spellcraft 1

Chakra bind (crown)

[Venger]

Wow, that looks great. Thanks a bunch, A_S.

Link to the thread's up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422395-Iron-Chef-Deep-Freeze&p=19415868#post19415868) I filled in what we've come up with here so far. Process is still up in the air, and tweaks are certainly expected.

If you're interested, please feel free to come on over, and we can figure out how to best move forward. I've subscribed to the thread, so I'll be dealing with all inquiries in a timely fashion over there, so we don't detract further from the sublime joy that is shiba protector.

[Amphetryon]

Finally got my table filled out. We'll call that progress.

[dysprosium]

Well I got my entry in. Let's see how this plays out. :smallcool:

[Venger]

Got mine in. This was hard to cook with.

[KrimsonNekros]

*sighs* Life sadly keeps getting in the way here.

[WhamBamSam]

*sighs* Life sadly keeps getting in the way here.Same, I got the table done during the week, but a big day today killed my motivation for level write-ups and fluff. I may still finish the entry and post it if no one else does anything similar.

[Heliomance]

Quiet round - I only have five entries. For the sake of a more interesting competition, I could extend the deadline a few hours if there are some that are almost ready to go?

With how requested this thing was, I was expecting more entries.

[Sian]

at least in my end it was the hyper-strict judging put ahead that soured me on it.

I have good ideas but i'm not going to put the effort i feel they deserve, when the judge have gone out ahead of time saying that they won't be appreciated for what they is

[samduke]

I would tend to agree - 5 entries and at least 1 judge no sense in waiting around for more entries...

[Venger]

Quiet round - I only have five entries. For the sake of a more interesting competition, I could extend the deadline a few hours if there are some that are almost ready to go?

With how requested this thing was, I was expecting more entries.

I don't remember this being that strongly requested. besides, even if it was, there's a difference between how strongly requested it is and how many people actually show up when it's time to cook (and survive the attrition process, since we never have as many finished dishes as chefs who declare intent)

I don't see a reason to bother. Only about five people had intent to cook (the viscount, whambamsam, myself, dysprosium and deadline) krimsonnekros, zaq, sian, samduke, and deadasadoor dropped out at various points of the thread (no shame! this is a tough SI) mainly due to concerns about the judging:


at least in my end it was the hyper-strict judging put ahead that soured me on it.

I have good ideas but i'm not going to put the effort i feel they deserve, when the judge have gone out ahead of time saying that they won't be appreciated for what they is


I would tend to agree - 5 entries and at least 1 judge no sense in waiting around for more entries...

5 dishes in is good enough for me. we had that many in acolyte of the ego. plus we have three judges: darrin, A_S, and Curmudgeon.

I agree there's no point waiting around. I'd like to get this round over with.

[KrimsonNekros]

I could have mine up and ready tomorrow, but I'll leave that up to the Chairman if she wishes to accept it or not.

[Heliomance]

Right, entry posting starts now!

[Heliomance]

I think someone took a certain joke suggestion too seriously!


Sam Urai

LN: Human (Phoenix): OA Samurai/CW Samurai/Shiba Protector/Master Samurai

Character Background

Background
has lived in a quite town his entire childhood, when disaster struck his home in the form of a fire that killed his parents. He spent the next few days in town with members of the Phoenix Clan, assisting where he could. having nowhere else to go he joined the Phoenix clan and set out to protect the town from unforeseen dangers. As he grew he took lessons from the masters in the art of the samurai learning all that he could, during his studies he learned from different teachers in the arts of the samurai, from the master in hopes of one day becoming a master himself.


Character Abilities

Abilities
Str 13 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 14

lvl 4: +1 dex
lvl 8: +1 con
lvl 12: +1 dex
lvl 16: +1 con
lvl 20: +1 str

@ lvl 20:
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 14


Effective Character Levels
Effective Character Levels



Level
Class/Prc
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
OA Samurai 1
1
2
0
2
Iaijutsu Focus 4, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (religion) 2CC, Knowledge (noble) 4, Ride 4, Sense Motive 1, Tumble 4
Alertness, Combat Expertise
Ancestral Daisho


2nd
CW Samurai 1
2
4
0
2
Iaijutsu Focus 5, Intimidate 5, Knowledge (religion) 2.5CC, Knowledge (noble) 5, Sense Motive 2
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana/bastard sword)
Daisho Proficiency


3rd
OA Samurai 2
3
5
0
3
Iaijutsu Focus 6, Intimidate 6, Knowledge (religion) 3CC, Knowledge (noble) 6, Ride 5, Sense Motive 3, Tumble 5
Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Bonus feat


4th
CW Samurai 2
4
6
0
3
Iaijutsu Focus 7, Intimidate 7, Knowledge (religion) 3.5CC, Knowledge (noble) 7, Sense Motive 4
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two swords as one


5th
OA Samurai 3
5
6
1
3
Iaijutsu Focus 8, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (religion) 4CC, Knowledge (noble) 8, Ride 6, Sense Motive 5, Tumble 6
-
-


6th
Shiba Protector 1
5
8
1
5
Iaijutsu Focus 9, Intimidate 9, Knowledge (religion) 4.5CC, Knowledge (noble) 9cc, Sense Motive 6
Power Attack
No thought


7th
Shiba Protector 2
6
9
1
6
Iaijutsu Focus 10, Intimidate 10, Knowledge (religion) 5CC, Knowledge (noble) 10cc, Sense Motive 7
-
Aid shugenja 1 /day


8th
Shiba Protector 3
7
9
2
6
Iaijutsu Focus 11, Intimidate 11, Ride 7, Tumble 7cc, Sense Motive 8
-
Dancing with the elements +2


9th
Shiba Protector 4
8
10
2
7
Iaijutsu Focus 12, Intimidate 12, Ride 8, Tumble 8cc, Sense Motive 9
Cleave
Aid shugenja 2/day


10th
Shiba Protector 5
8
10
2
7
Iaijutsu Focus 13, Intimidate 13, Ride 9, Tumble 9cc, Sense Motive 10
-
Dancing with the elements +4


11th
Shiba Protector 6
9
11
3
8
Iaijutsu Focus 14, Intimidate 14, Ride 11, Tumble 10cc
-
One with nothing, aid shugenja 3/day


12th
Shiba Protector 7
10
11
3
8
Iaijutsu Focus 15, Intimidate 15, Ride 12, Tumble 12cc
Mounted Combat
Dancing with the elements +6


13th
Shiba Protector 8
11
12
3
9
Iaijutsu Focus 16, Intimidate 16, Ride 14, Tumble 13cc
-
Aid shugenja (maximize) 4/day


14th
Shiba Protector 9
11
12
4
9
Iaijutsu Focus 17, Intimidate 17, Ride 15, Tumble 15cc
-
Diamond soul


15th
Shiba Protector 10
12
13
4
10
Iaijutsu Focus 18, Intimidate 18, Ride 17, Tumble 16cc
Mounted Archery
One with all and nothing


16th
OA Samurai 4
13
14
4
11
Iaijutsu Focus 19, Intimidate 19, Ride 18, Tumble 18
weapon focus katana/bastard sword
Bonus feat


17th
CW Samurai 3
14
14
5
12
Iaijutsu Focus 20, Intimidate 20, Ride 20, Tumble 19
-
Kiai smite 1/day


18th
CW Samurai 4
15
15
5
12
Iaijutsu Focus 21, Intimidate 21, Ride 21, Tumble 21
Combat Reflexes
-


19th
CW Samurai 5
16
15
5
12
Iaijutsu Focus 22, Intimidate 22, Ride 22, Sense Motive 11, Tumble 22
-
Iaijutsu master


20th
Master Samurai 1
17
15
7
14
Iaijutsu Focus 23, Intimidate 23, Ride 23, Sense Motive 12, Tumble 23
Great Cleave
Tumble Bonus, Great Cleave

[Heliomance]

Truth is mutable.



Fang Xue, Soul Protector of the Phoenix Clan

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/6/67/Madame_Gao.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150325185209

abilities

str 8
dex 12
con 14
int 14
wis 14 (increases here)*
cha 16
lvl breakdown
LE Human (phoenix) binder 7/shiba protector 10/binder10

Within the faraway mists that cling to distant shores lie four islands.

Common wisdom once dictated that they fell from the tip of a god’s sword, forming perfect droplets within the ocean.

It was not, everyone thought, within human grasp to do such a thing.

Others felt differently.

Control over the elements was thought to be bottled in one’s blood (at the time, you see, blood was thought to be immutable, inviolate) and for a time, the lands of men were separated by what elements their people possessed affinity for.

This too passed.

When magic men came from distant lands and performed unspeakable acts, exchanging their very minds with the natives of the isles of ember, stone, mist, and water, it was found that their magic travelled with them.

Eventually the intruders left or were disposed of by one island or the other, but the impact they made could not be so easily forgotten.

Now that it was known magic lived within the mind, members of the Phoenix clan began to turn to other pursuits, those outside the mere magic of the natural world.

If one mind possessed of true strength of character could contain magic to reshape the world, what could be done with two?

or more?

Despite their ancient taboos, shugenjas found themselves dabbling more and more with the magic of the mind.

Some of their number, unable to tap the elemental magic of old on their own found by some twist of their fate, they were able to call upon the departed souls of their ancestors within their family shrines.

The elders initially objected, since to disturb the dead was an unthinkable offense, but when it became clear that a totem could be within more than one person at a time, it was ruled that they could not possibly be the ancestor themselves, but mere shades.

It was decided that the practice could continue, but the spirits they called upon were no longer to be called by the names they had in life, since they were no more than a vestige of what they once were.

These shamans were able to invest themselves with the deep growl of Dog, the swiftness of Raven, and even the tenacity of Snake and the craftiness of Spider.

And so they watch over the Phoenix clan, shugenja companions in tow. Until the next schism redefines the way things are.




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Binder 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
bluff 4, diplo 4, intimidate 4, k:religion 4, sm 4
Iron Will, Combat Expertise
Soul binding (1 vestige)


2nd
Binder 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
bluff 1 (5), diplo 1 (5), intimidate 1 (5), k:religion 1 (5), sm 1 (5)

Pact augmentation (1 ability), suppress sign


3rd
Binder 3
+2
+3
+1
+3
bluff 1 (6), diplo 1 (6), intimidate 1 (6), k:religion 1 (6), sm 1 (6)
Alertness



4th
Binder 4
+3
+4
+1
+4
bluff 1 (7), diplo 1 (7), intimidate 1 (7), k:religion 1 (7), sm 1 (7)

Bonus feat (Improved Binding)


5th
Binder 5
+3
+4
+1
+4
bluff 1 (8), diplo 1 (8), intimidate 1 (8), never outnumbered

Pact augmentation (2 abilities)


6th
Binder 6
+4
+5
+2
+5
bluff 1 (9), diplo 1 (9), intimidate 1 (9), k:religion 1 (8), sm 1 (8)
Insane Defiance
Soul guardian (immune to fear)


7th
Binder 7
+5
+5
+2
+5
bluff 1 (10), diplo 1 (10), intimidate 1 (10), k:religion 1 (9), sm 1 (9)




8th
Shiba Protector 1
+5
+7
+2
+7
intimidate 1 (11), spellcraft 4

No thought


9th
Shiba Protector 2
+6/+1
+8
+2
+8
iaijutsu focus 1, intimidate 1 (12), spellcraft 3 (7)
Shape Soulmeld (astral vambraces)
Aid shugenja 1/day


10th
Shiba Protector 3
+7/+2
+8
+3
+8
iaijutsu focus 4 (5), intimidate 1 (13)

Dancing with the elements +2


11th
Shiba Protector 4
+8/+3
+9
+3
+9
iaijutsu focus 4 (9), intimidate 1 (14)

Aid shugenja 2/day


12th
Shiba Protector 5
+8/+3
+9
+3
+9
iaijutsu focus 4 (13), intimidate 1 (15)
Open Lesser Chakra (Arms)
Dancing with the elements +4


13th
Shiba Protector 6
+9/+4
+10
+4
+10
bluff 1 (11), iaijutsu focus 3 (16), intimidate 1 (16)

One with nothing, aid shugenja 3/day


14th
Shiba Protector 7
+10/+5
+10
+4
+10
bluff 3 (14), iaijutsu focus 1 (17), intimidate 1 (17)

Dancing with the elements +6


15th
Shiba Protector 8
+11/+6/+1
+11
+4
+11
bluff 3 (17), iaijutsu focus 1 (18), intimidate 1 (18)
Imperious command
Aid shugenja (maximize) 4/day


16th
Shiba Protector 9
+11/+6/+1
+11
+5
+11
bluff 2 (19), diplo 1 (10), iaijutsu focus 1 (19), intimidate 1 (19)

Diamond soul


17th
Shiba Protector 10
+12/+7/+2
+12
+5
+12
bluff 1 (20), diplo 2 (12), iaijutsu focus 1 (20), intimidate 1 (20)

One with all and nothing


18th
Binder 8
+13/+8/+3
+13
+5
+13
bluff 1 (21), diplo 3 (15), intimidate 1 (21)
Chosen of Evil
Soul binding (2 vestiges)


19th
Binder 9
+13/+8/+3
+13
+6
+13
bluff 1 (22), diplo 3 (18), intimidate 1 (22)

Soul guardian (slippery mind)


20th
Binder 10
+14/+9/+4
+13
+6
+14
bluff 1 (23), diplo 3 (21), intimidate 1 (23)

Pact augmentation (3 abilities)






Your journey begins.

Standard tips for a finesse-focused binder apply. Enjoy Naberius and his fast talking for social situations, Malphas for skulking, Focalor for direct damage, Paimon for mobility, and Buer for support. Tenebrous pulls his weight with his seeing in darkness in addition to turns.

Scare the heck out of everybody with never outnumbered and keep them in their place. stack fear with wands via karsus or raw intimidate checks. your bonus is pretty solid, so take advantage, it only gets easier from here.


you’re in shiba protector now, ASAP, so bully for you.

To continue our years-long food analogy with Iron Chef, when I saw shiba protector as a secret ingredient, I went into my pantry to get a very special spice.

If shiba protector is short-grain rice, insane defiance is the strand of saffron I add to give it taste, color, and joy.

Every time you are targeted with a mind-affecting spell, you can spend an immediate and shunt it to another legal target in range. The really fun part is he takes -4 to his save. as a circumstance penalty. so it’ll stack with everything.

the traditional use of this is defensively: an enemy picks on you, so you throw it back in his face.

the twist on it here is to use insane defiance offensively.

rather than waiting for your enemies to attack, take the fight to them. shugenjas have a lot of cool mind-affecting spells on their list, including feeblemind, hold person, and power word blind.

a free +4 on their DCs pretty much whenever they want is certainly a welcome addition.

but what about the wisdom damage?

well, when you use insane defance, you take 1 wis damage. fortunately, you’ve got a fat pad to sit on since it’s your primary, and the grinning hound himself has your back. Naberius lets you heal ability damage at a rate of 1 point/round, and you’re all set. this synergizes with the SI’s emphasis on wisdom and lets you do something with it in addition to adding it to your to-hit and damage.

the astral vambraces are up, providing you a little extra durability

fear continues to shape and twist your tortured mind. you are now wholly immune, so have fun with that.

stand in the middle of the fracas and let your shugenja pals bomb you with aoes if they want, you’re in no danger.



you’re further along your spiritual path at this point and one with nothing is online.

use your haste to jog around the battlefield and give people a poke with andras or paimon.

your arm chakra is open now, further expanding your flexibility.

the arm bind for astral vambraces lets you pick a menu A item from the astral construct list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) which includes a lot of great stuff, but the one we want to focus on is flight. while binder does a great job providing utility, the one thing it doesn’t let you do quite yet is fly, so that’s another gap we can fill here.

your saves are good an high at this point thanks to the SI and you can help out shugenjas even more.

imperious command’s also up, helping you contribute with BFC dishing out nasty conditions to enemies.

stack fear and pick off stragglers. you keep on getting better at what you do.



All good things must come to an end.

you conclude your time in the secret ingredient, pick up spell resistance and your capstone, letting you shuffle your abilities around, which is a big help.

you drop back into binder to round out, picking up 5ths and 6ths. you’ve got 2 vestiges handy now, and they’ll probably be either zceryll and chupoclops or balam and haures, depending on your needs.

zceryll (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9094.0)
gives you a ton of summons and thus access to a lot of valuable spells for offense, defense, bfc, utility, and everything in between, so there’s a list of highlights rather than me expounding on it forever.

slippery mind aids you defensively from hostile mind-affecting effects if you’ve already used your immediate that round.

chosen of evil gives you something worthwhile to do on rounds where you aren’t using insane defiance. naberius will help you out as ever with his fast ability healing. the bonus from your vile feats in addition to dancing with the elements and all with one and nothing will make your saves very very high whenever you need it and overall.



online vestiges (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)
complete scoundrel- never outnumbered
elder evils- insane defiance, chosen of evil
OA- SI
drow of the underdark-imperious command
tome of magic- binder
core-alertness, combat expertise, iron will
magic of incarnum- shape soulmeld, open lesser chakra
psionic soulmelds web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) astral vambraces

[Heliomance]

This SI is really poor in terms of witty comment potential, I have to say.



Shiba Daisuke 芝大輔
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/l5r/images/c/c5/Shiba_Naoya.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110903135003
“My life is to serve whom I am sworn to protect”
私の人生は私が守るために宣誓しています誰提供することです

In the Beginning
初めに
The most important event in the history of the Phoenix Clan was when Shiba knelt before the mortal Isawa, casting away his pride and arrogance and promising to protect his people in exchange for Isawa's help in ending the War against Fu Leng by becoming the Phoenix Clan Thunder. Until this point, the tribe of Isawa had been a part of the Phoenix only because geographically their land was within the area granted to Shiba by Hantei. Isawa refused to acknowledge the rule of the Kami, but he also refused to leave his lands. Shiba protected him from the Emperor's wrath by claiming that the Isawa were part of his clan even though Isawa would have claimed otherwise.

Isawa had believed that the War would not affect his people because it was confined to southern Rokugan, and thought if he remained neutral the Dark Kami would leave his people alone. When the forces of the Shadowlands began attacking the Isawa lands in the far north of the empire, Isawa too realized that he could not remain neutral in the War, and that if he tried, his people would be destroyed.

Isawa then offered to help Shiba in defeating his corrupted brother but only on the condition that Shiba would kneel before him as he offered his fealty. Isawa would not have his people believing that he had sold them into bondage to a Kami. Shiba, realizing the opportunity before him, did not hesitate to kneel before Isawa and offer to protect his family once he was gone.

The Cycle Continues
サイクルが継続し
Eight year old Shiba Daisuke dressed in his finest robes as befitting his Clan is lead to the estate of the Isawa family. Daisuke is not sure why he is being brought here. He only knows that he is to obey his father and as such he follows along. Daisuke is amazed at what the Isawa family has. He had not seen much along the lines of elemental magic but he was impressed with it. For a moment he wished that he too had the ability to converse with the kami.

Daisuke is led into a large antechamber. On the other side is a girl, older than Daisuke but not yet an adolescent either. She has her father standing next to her as well.

“Lord Isawa,” Daisuke’s father began. “It is time that my family renewed its pledge to yours.” He began to kneel bowing his head. He motioned for Daisuke to do the same.

“Is your son ready?” the girl’s father asked.

“He is, Lord Isawa.”

“Lady Isawa Koniko," Lord Isawa turned to his daughter. "Meet your protector, Shiba Daisuke.”

From that day forward, Daisuke made sure that nothing was going to happen to Koniko. Though at first he felt overwhelmed or maybe deceived by his father, Daisuke trained in the ways of bushido. He was entrusted with Uyoku 羽翼 the Feather Blade. He learned how to both protect Koniko as well as himself. He learned the ways of iaijutsu as well as techniques to take hits for his charge. Once he was ready to take the next step, he was officially known as a Shiba Protector.

Basics
基本原則
LN human (Phoenix Clan) OA Samurai 4/Crusader 1/Shiba Protector 10/Iaijutsu Master 2/Devoted Defender 3
32 point buy
Starting stats Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14
All ability increases to Wis

Build Table
テーブルを構築


Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
OA Samurai 1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Diplomacy 4, Iaijutsu Focus 4, Jump 4, Ride 4, Search 2, Sense Motive 4, Spot 2
Alertness, Iron Will
ancestral daisho


2nd
OA Samurai 2
+2
+3
+0
+3
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Perform (tea ceremony) 2, Ride +1, Sense Motive +1
Improved Initiative (B)



3rd
OA Samurai 3
+3
+3
+1
+3
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Ride +1, Search +1, Sense Motive +1
Quick Draw



4th
OA Samurai 4
+4
+4
+1
+4
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Ride +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +1
Combat Expertise (B)



5th
Crusader 1
+5
+6
+1
+4
Diplomacy +1, Jump +1, Knowledge (religion) 4, Ride +1

furious counterstike, steely resolve 5


6th
Shiba Protector 1
+5
+8
+1
+6
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Spellcraft 3
Weapon Focus (katana)
no thought


7th
Shiba Protector 2
+6
+9
+1
+7
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Ride +1, Spellcraft +1

aid shugenja 1/day


8th
Shiba Protector 3
+7
+9
+2
+7
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Ride +1, Spellcraft +1

dancing with the elements +2


9th
Iaijutsu Master 1
+8
+9
+4
+7
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Tumble 3
Dodge, Weapon Finesse (katana) (B)
canny defense


10th
Iaijutsu Master 2
+9
+9
+5
+7
Diplomcay +1 Iaijutsu Focus +1, Search +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +1

lightning blade


11th
Devoted Defender 1
+10
+11
+7
+7
Jump +1, Listen 1, Search +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +1

harm’s way


12th
Devoted Defender 2
+11
+12
+9
+7
Jump +1, Listen +1, Seach +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +1
Combat Intuition
defensive strike


13th
Devoted Defender 3
+12
+12
+9
+8
Jump +1, Listen +1, Search +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +1

deflect attack +1


14th
Shiba Protector 4
+13
+13
+9
+9
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1

aid shugenja 2/day


15th
Shiba Protector 5
+13
+13
+9
+9
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1
Riposte
dancing with the elements +4


16th
Shiba Protector 6
+14
+14
+10
+10
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1

aid shugenja 3/day, one with nothing


17th
Shiba Protector 7
+15
+14
+10
+10
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1

dancing with the elements +6


18th
Shiba Protector 8
+16
+15
+10
+11
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1
Deceptive Dodge
aid shugenja (maximize) 4/day


19th
Shiba Protector 9
+16
+15
+11
+11
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1

diamond soul


20th
Shiba Protector 10
+17
+16
+12
+12
Diplomacy +1, Iaijutsu Focus +1, Jump +1, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +1

one with all or nothing



Skill Ranks at Level 20: Diplomacy 20, Iaijutsu Focus 19, Jump 21, Knowledge (religion) 4, Listen 3, Perform (tea ceremony) 2, Ride 10, Search 7, Sense Motive 19, Spellcraft 12, Spot 7, Tumble 3

Maneuvers Known (5): crusader’s strike (DS), douse the flames (WR), foehammer (DS), mountain hammer (SD), stone bones (SD)
Stance (1): iron guard’s glare (DS)

Class Features Showcase
クラスの機能のショーケース
Building on the Prerequisites 前提条件でのビルド: Outside of the race and clan restrictions, the SI has pretty easy requirements to enter. By virtue of his classes outside of the SI, Shiba Daisuke has increased his BAB to as high as it can be with taking all ten levels of the SI. The feat Alertness is also a prerequisite for the classic 3.0 prestige class Devoted Defender which helps protect his charge. Both of the feats Deceptive Dodge and Riposte have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite as does the SI. These two feats provide extra offensive power to a character that is admittedly going to be spending a lot of time within five feet of the Lady Isawa. These feats take advantage of fighting in a defensive style, which is not considered to be very optimal. Fighting defensively goes along with the fluff of the Phoenix Clan. Riposte allows for an attack of opportunity when the first miss against him occurs. Considering his full defensive suite, his Armor Class can be quite high. Deceptive Dodge allows for a miss to possibly hit another target--more specifically someone else that is not Lady Isawa.
No Thought無思想ません: This class feature is well known and is the reason why the SI makes a great class for dipping. Wisdom bonus to attack and defense rolls. What is not to like? For Daisuke it is the main attribute to help overcome his average Strength score.
Aid Shugenja援助修験者: This ability allows Daisuke to make Shugenja spells cast on him better via metamagic feats that the casting Shugenja doesn’t even need to have. By using just the 3.5 spells available, the better spells include bear’s endurance and bull’s strength. Empowering increases the bonuses to six, which makes Daisuke even more able to take and dish out damage. The entire line of cure spells would ba another excellent use of this ability. Note that if the entire line of d20 Rokugan books are in play, then this ability becomes even more interesting as there are more spells that would be applicable for this ability.
Dancing with the Elements要素とダンス: This is a class feature that is not very interesting per se. In a low magic campaign this ability is just as good as a cloak of resistance. Or put another way, it frees up resources from WBL as he does not have to spend them on such protective gear. Nevertheless, for Daisuke it becomes even more important. It protects him against enemy spellcasters that would do him harm. Having bonuses help him be able to stay in the fight and continue protecting the Lady Isawa.
One with Nothing何もない一: The Chairman’s ruling made this ability much more playable. The extra attack is much more useful for those situations when the opponents close in. These are the times that Daisuke will be able to land an extra hit to defeat his enemies. An increase to both AC and Reflex saves also increases Daisuke’s durability against his mistress’ foes. Though back in the 3.0 days, haste actually gave an extra partial action. If this old interpretation is in use, then Daisuke can activate his haste to move back to Lady Isawa after making an attack farther away from her.
Diamond Soulダイヤモンドソウル: Free spell resistance. Again what not to like? This is another barrier that keeps [shiba] in the fight to protect his charge. Even better is the fact that it exists in non combat situations as well. Is the enemy trying to dominate during a tense negotiation? Now Daisuke has another layer of protection for the enemy to penetrate. Admittedly, this comes a little late to be amazing but free spell resistance is always appreciated. It is also based off of Wisdom, which happens to be [shiba]’s highest ability score as it is.
One with All and Nothingすべて及び何もワン: A great buff for when something really really really needs to be successful. Since it is keyed off of Daisuke’s best ability modifier, Wisdom is once again in play. It is also usable as many times per day as the modifier. For him that means that it is five times per day (without WBL increasing that amount). The fact that it is usable for virtually any kind of roll means that this can be used nearly any time the situation calls for it. And with the Chairman’s ruling that it can come in handy at the right time.

Design Notes
デザインノート:
Too Dippy!: It has been said that sometimes martial characters need to dip to become more effective. This is one of those cases. One level of Crusader provided some maneuvers that would help with early level play. All of these maneuvers are usable throughout Daisuke’s career. This one Crusader level also gives him heavy armor proficiency which none of his other classes offer. This way he can wear the o-yoroi (great armor) that most people picture when the word samurai is mentioned. Crusader also has Knowledge (religion) as a class skill which allowed Daisuke to enter the SI as early as possible. Staying with Iaijutsu Master to its second level expands upon the skill Iaijutsu Focus plus adds his positive Charisma bonus to attack and damage (when using a katana). This along with the free Weapon Finesse (katana) he gains, Daisuke does not have to worry about his very average Strength score. As an added bonus, he gets to add his Intelligence bonus to Armor Class when he does not where his armor. And there is always at least one instance where the characters cannot wear their armor for some reason. Devoted Defender allows Daisuke to be the best bodyguard around with one of the best abilities in the game – harm’s way.
Why OA Samurai?: There are three reasons for going this route. The first is the fact that ancestral daisho is a great way to get increased benefits for magic weapons and it is based on character level and not class level. That means that he did not have to stay in this class forever. It is also like getting the feat Ancestral Relic for free! Secondly, the flavor of the SI lended itself more to this version of Samurai. Since the SI has a clan requirement, and the Samurai bonus feats are sorted by clan, it seemed more appropriate to utilize it. Thirdly, and maybe most importantly, the Complete Warrior version of Samurai lends itself more for two weapon fighting and intimidation stacking. The former did not fit with the bodyguard concept envisioned for Daisuke and the latter has been done quite well before. Also the Complete Warrior Samurai does not have Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill. (For shame!)
Shenanigans: There are a few items that can be tried at certain tables. Your mileage may vary. First is the idea that making Daisuke’s ancestral katana have the properties of the cursed sword -2, he would be able to create multiple iaijutsu attacks. Dropping an item is a free action. Per the cursed sword, attempting to draw any other weapon results in drawing the cursed sword. Daisuke has the Quick Draw feat so it all comes together. For another possible shenanigan, consider the combination of harm’s way and the feat Deceptive Dodge and the iron guard’s glare stance. Deceptive Dodge allows for the possibility of striking an adjacent foe. In this case this would be Lady Isawa. Daisuke will be in the iron guard’s glare stance that forces a -4 penalty on those not attacking him. Deceptive Dodge says that this new attack uses the same modifiers as the old one. Now harm’s way kicks in making the two switch places and once again he is attacking Daisuke but this time it would be at the -4 penalty since this attack was not originally against him.
Tell me about this ancestral daisho: Uyoku the Feather Blade is the name of Daisuke's katana. The abilities of the blade itself can be adjusted depending upon the nature of the campaign being played. The only weapon property that would be essential to Daisuke's style would be the eager property, so he could gain an even larger initiative bonus. The defending property would also be appropriate, if not optimal. The bane property could be acquired if the campaign itself was to focus upon a certain kind of enemy.
Is harm’s way really that good?: Yes it is. It is triggered whenever the charge is attacked. Any time that Lady Isawa is attacked, the attack instead goes towards Daisuke. There is no limit to the amount of times that harm’s way is triggered and that is what makes it such a powerful ability. However it does take the right mind set to play this kind of character. Daisuke is not going to be leading a charge attacking all enemies on the front lines. He is going to be within five feet of Lady Isawa. Not everyone can play a character built to play such a protective role.
I got it already. He’s a bodyguard. What else can he do?: Going along with the fluff from the Legend of the Five Rings and Rokugan d20, the Phoenix Clan is known to be pacifists. As such, diplomacy is going to be held in high regard among the higher ranking samurai and the rest of the leadership. Daisuke can play the role of party face with his ranks in Diplomacy. His Sense Motive ranks are high enough to go along with his high Wisdom to be able to know when he or his Lady is being deceived. Plus he has ranks in Perform (tea ceremony) as a shout out to 1st edition. To be most successful, Daisuke would be suited for a Rokugan style campaign. Indeed he needs a Shugenja for his aid shugenja ability to work. However, the role of bodyguard can be adapted to any kind of campaign and he would do well in any kind of campaign.

Sources
ソース
Complete Adventurer: Combat Intuition
Dragon Compendium: Deceptive Dodge and Riposte feats
Legend of the Five Rings and d20 Rokugan Campaign Setting: fluff only
Oriental Adventures: Samurai base class, Iaijutsu Master and Shiba Protector prestige classes
Sword and Fist: Devoted Defender prestige class
Tome of Battle: Crusader base class, maneuvers

[Heliomance]

Warming flame of the Phoenix


Fletcher's Flame


Anna had been around for as long as Fletcher could remember. They used to play together as kids when she could sneak out of the kitchen and his parents weren't around to catch them at it. His mother had said on more than one occasion, "What would the neighbors think if they saw you playing with a servant girl and such an ugly one at that?" But there was no other kids his age within the estate. Later when Fletcher started learning the magical arts of the shugenja, Anna tried to learn as well, but had no aptitude. She instead turn to martial and mystical and swore an oath to protect Fletcher always.

Lawful neutral skilled city dweller Human Hexblade 4 / Swordsage 5 / Shiba Protector 10 / Devoted Defender 1

Starting Abilities: STR 14, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 13, WIS 17, CHA 8
All lvl increases go to WIS
Final Abilities: STR 14, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 13, WIS 22, CHA 8





Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Hexblade 1
+1
+0
+0
+2
Tumble 4(4), Spellcraft 4(4), Knowledge(Nature) 2(4)
Iron Will, Combat Reflexes
Hexblade's curse 1/day


2nd
Hexblade 2
+2
+0
+0
+3
Tumble 5(1), Spellcraft 5(1), Knowledge(Nature) 2.5(1)

Arcane resistance


3rd
Hexblade 3
+3
+1
+1
+3
Tumble 6(1), Spellcraft 6(1), Knowledge(Nature) 3(1)
Combat Expertise
Mettle


4th
Hexblade 4
+4
+1
+1
+4
Tumble 7(1), Spellcraft 7(1), Knowledge(Nature) 3.5(1)
Alertness(familiar)
Summon familiar


5th
Swordsage 1
+4
+1
+3
+6
Tumble 8(1), Knowledge(Nature) 4(1), Sense Motive 1(1), Spot 1(2), Search 1(2)

Quick to act +1, Discipline focus(weapon focus: Desert Wind)


6th
Swordsage 2
+5
+1
+4
+7
Tumble 9(1), Sense Motive 3(2), Spot 2(2), Search 2(2)
Adaptive Style
AC bonus


7th
Shiba Protector 1
+5
+3
+4
+9
Spellcraft 9(2), Iaijutsu Focus 1(1)

No thought


8th
Shiba Protector 2
+6
+4
+4
+10
Tumble 10(1), Iaijutsu Focus 3(2)

Aid shugenja 1/day


9th
Shiba Protector 3
+7
+4
+5
+10
Tumble 11(1), Iaijutsu Focus 5(2)
Power attack
Dancing with the elements +2


10th
Shiba Protector 4
+8
+5
+5
+11
Spellcraft 10(1), Iaijutsu Focus 7(2)

Aid shugenja 2/day


11th
Shiba Protector 5
+8
+5
+5
+11
Spellcraft 11(1), Iaijutsu Focus 9(2)

Dancing with the elements +4


12th
Shiba Protector 6
+9
+6
+6
+12
Spellcraft 12(1), Iaijutsu Focus 11(2)
Improved Critical
One with nothing, Aid shugenja 3/day


13th
Swordsage 3
+10
+7
+6
+12
Tumble 14(2), Sense Motive 4(1) Search 3(2), Spot 3(2)




14th
Swordsage 4
+11
+7
+7
+13
Tumble 16(3), Search 4(2), Spot 4(2)

Discipline focus (insightful strike: Desert Wind)


15th
Shiba Protector 7
+12
+7
+7
+13
Spellcraft 13(1), Iaijutsu Focus 13(2)
Quickdraw
Dancing with the elements +6


16th
Shiba Protector 8
+13
+8
+7
+14
Spellcraft 14(1), Iaijutsu Focus 15(2)

Aid shugenja 4/day


17th
Shiba Protector 9
+13
+8
+8
+14
Iaijutsu Focus 18(3)

Diamond soul


18th
Shiba Protector 10
+14
+9
+8
+15
Iaijutsu Focus 21(3)
Improved Initiative
One with all and nothing


19th
Swordsage 5
+14
+9
+8
+15
Tumble 22(6), Iaijutsu Focus 21.5(1)

Quick to act +2


20th
Devoted Defender 1
+15
+11
+10
+15
Iaijutsu Focus 23(3)

Harm's way





Spells per Day


Level
1st



4th-20th
0





Spell list

1 - Read Magic, Detect Magic

Maneuvers


Level
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known



5th
Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Rabid Wolf Strike, Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun
4
Blood in the Water



6th-12th
Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Rabid Wolf Strike, Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun, Clever Positioning
4
Blood in the Water, Flame's Blessing



13th
Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Rabid Wolf Strike, Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun, Clever Positioning, Searing Charge
5
Blood in the Water, Flame's Blessing



14th-18th
Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Rabid Wolf Strike, Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun, Clever Positioning, Searing Charge, Leaping Flame
5
Blood in the Water, Flame's Blessing



19th-20th
Mountain Hammer, Counter Charge, Shadow Jaunt, Rabid Wolf Strike, Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun, Clever Positioning, Searing Charge, Leaping Flame, Desert Tempest
6
Blood in the Water, Flame's Blessing, Shifting Defense







I start out as your run of the mill Hexblade that's not particularly good at cursing and only has the bare minimum of additional resistance. I pick up a rat familiar to help my Fort saves and to keep me company when Fletcher isn't around, but realize that I'm unable to cast spells without powerful magic items so it's time to try another tact. I learn some of the mystical martial arts of the Swordsage to better wield my falchion(flashing sun, burning blade, blood in the water, and weapon focus) and turn the tide of a battle(Counter charge, shadow jaunt). I've got all the requirements for the SI except for the 5th BAB.



I can now add my WIS to attack, damage, and AC and even use power attack to squeeze out a bit more damage from that WIS induced accuracy. My Hexblade's arcane resistance is bolstered in a different manner by Dancing with the Elements so I become even better at resisting spells. Even though I can't cast spells myself I know the theory behind the magic so can help Fletcher empower spells that he casts on me.



I can now haste myself three times per day, my saves against spells increase by 4 more points, and I can help Fletcher Empower up to 3 spells cast on me per day. I've picked up the ability to add WIS to damage twice instead of just once while using Desert Wind strikes. I've picked up 2 more maneuvers that help with better positioning myself to deal with enemies, one of which (searing charge) gives me the potential to melee flying creatures. I have also increase the critical threat range of my falchion to 15-20 which pairs nicely with my Blood in the Water stance and grabbed Quickdraw to help get Iaijutsu strikes on charge attacks.



Here is where everything comes together. I now have a pretty substantial spell resistance thanks to Diamond Soul, but if a caster does get through that resistance I get +6 from Dancing with the elements and also get to add my WIS to saves by replacing the CHA bonus from Hexblade's Arcane resistance feature using One with all and nothing and I still have mettle in play so I can shrug off and secondary effects on a Fort or Ref save. I can help Fletcher Maximize spells cast on me instead of Empower and if he gets attacked when I'm within 5 feet, I can switch places with him and take the attack myself (Harm's Way) then using Leaping Flame I can teleport next to the foe who attacked me. Finally by using Desert Tempest and Shifting Defenses, I can plot a path through the enemy combatants taking a swing at each one of them and teleporting out of reach of the first three attacks of opportunity then use tumble on the rest. This lets me damage a group of foes with little risk to myself and potentially end up back where I started. If I use this trick at the beginning of combat and win the initaitive, which is pretty likely due to Improved initiative and Swordsage's quick to act feature, each of the attacks in the maneuver become iaijutsu strikes (modified by WIS instead of CHA thanks to One with all and nothing).



If Dragon Magazine is available pick a hummingbird familiar instead of rat to help with initiative. It's not strictly RAW, but talk to your DM about letting you sub, using One with all and nothing, your WIS for DEX modifier when calculating the number of attacks of opportunity you get with Combat Reflexes as this seems in line with the fluff.



Cityscape: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) skilled city dweller
Complete Warrior: Hexblade
Oriental Adventures: Shiba Protector, Iaijutsu Focus
Player's Handbook: various feat and spells, familiar
Sword and Fist: Devoted Defender
Tome of Battle: Swordsage, various maneuvers, adaptive style

[Heliomance]

"Why must I post this, Iron Bear?"
"It is your duty."


Iron Bear

LN Azurin (Phoenix) Crusader 5/Incarnate 2/Shiba Protector 10/Devoted Defender 3

Stats
Str 13 (Increase at 4)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16 (Other increases here)
Cha 8
Build


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Crusader 1
+1
+2
+0
+0
Balance 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Jump 4, Tumble 4
Weapon Focus (Longsword), Iron Will
Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike, Skilled City Dweller


2nd
Crusader 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Balance 5, Diplomacy 5, Intimidate 5, Jump 5, Tumble 5

Indomitable Soul


3rd
Crusader 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Diplomacy 6, Intimidate 6, Spot 1 (2), Tumble 6
Combat Expertise
Zealous Surge


4th
Crusader 4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Diplomacy 7, Intimidate 7, Spot 2 (2), Tumble 7

Steely Resolve 10


5th
Crusader 5
+5
+4
+1
+1
Diplomacy 8, Intimidate 8, Spot 3 (2), Tumble 8




6th
Incarnate 1
+5
+6
+1
+3
Knowledge (Religion) 3
Power Attack
Aura, Detect Chaos


7th
Incarnate 2
+6/+1
+7
+1
+4
Knowledge (Religion) 4, Spot 4 (2)

Chakra Bind (Crown)


8th
Shiba Protector 1
+6/+1
+9
+1
+6
Sense Motive 3

No Thought


9th
Shiba Protector 2
+7/+2
+10
+1
+7
Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 2
Combat Reflexes
Aid Shugenja 1/day


10th
Shiba Protector 3
+8/+3
+10
+2
+7
Search 1 (2), Spellcraft 3

Dancing with the Elements +2


11th
Shiba Protector 4
+9/+4
+11
+2
+8
Search 2 (2), Spellcraft 4

Aid Sjugenja 2/day


12th
Shiba Protector 5
+9/+4
+11
+2
+8
Search 3 (2), Spellcraft 5
Martial Maneuver (Wall of Blades)
Dancing with the Elements +4


13th
Shiba Protector 6
+10/+5
+12
+3
+9
Search 4 (2), Spellcraft 6

One with Nothing, Aid Shugenja 3/day


14th
Shiba Protector 7
+11/+6/+1
+12
+3
+9
Spellcraft 9

Dancing with the Elements +6


15th
Shiba Protector 8
+12/+7/+2
+13
+3
+10
Spellcraft 12
Spellcaster Support
Aid Shugenja (Maximize) 4/day


16th
Shiba Protector 9
+12/+7/+2
+13
+4
+10
Intimidate 10, Spellcraft 13

Diamond Soul


17th
Shiba Protector 10
+13/+8/+3
+14
+4
+11
Intimidate 13

One with All and Nothing


18th
Devoted Defender 1
+14/+9/+4
+16
+6
+11
Spot 7
Martial Stance (Aura of Perfect Order)
AC Bonus +1, Harm’s Way


19th
Devoted Defender 2
+15/+10/+5
+17
+7
+11
Spot 10

Defensive Strike


20th
Devoted Defender 3
+16/+11/+6/+1
+17
+7
+12
Spot 13

AC Bonus +2, Deflect Attack +1



Maneuvers
1st: Douse the Flames, Vanguard Strike, Crusader’s Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones (trade at 4)

2nd: Foehammer, Tactical Strike (at 4), Wall of Blades (at 12)

3rd: White Raven Tactics

Stances: Martial Spirit, Leading the Charge (at 2), Aura of Perfect Order (at 18)
Backstory
“Why can I not go fishing in the lake, Iron Bear?”
“Because the rains have swelled the waters, and the kappa will be using this advantage to stalk for his prey.”
“What is his prey, Iron Bear?”
“His prey is young men like you, foolish enough to wander too close.”
“But I’m not just some Crab peasant! I’m a Phoenix Fire Shugenja, shaper of flame! I will roast the kappa dry!”
“That means you have not done hard labor and rely on those like me to be your strength. Your meat will be all the more tender and tempting to the kappa.”
“But Iron Bear, listen to me! You have to protect me from the kappa. I command you.”
“You listen to me, boy. I am not your servant. I serve the clan Phoenix, and it will be many years before you can dream of speaking for the clan. You are my superior when we attend court, but do not think that gives you any power over me. I work to guard you to uphold the traditions of the Shiba family, as my profession has done for generations. Ours is an ancient pact that has lasted this long because the Shugenja and their Protectors understand each other. To twist the rules of this pact would be to spit in the face of our ancestors, and an insult to the law.”
“I am sorry, Iron Bear.”
“It is forgiven. Your youth makes you impetuous. I am not only here to protect you from physical harm, Isawa. I am here to prevent harm from occurring. You learn not to insult the Protectors, and we avoid a possible conflict in court, or an encounter with one less forgiving than I.”

The young Isawa thought Iron Bears warnings overly protective. The kappa surely was not that dangerous, and an attack was unlikely in a quick fishing trip. He snuck out during Iron Bear’s afternoon meditation and set up on a rock with a fishing pole to catch something to eat and simply pass the time.

He relaxed into a sense-dulling calm as the burbling of the stream into the lake and the rustle of wind through the trees masked the sound of the creeping kappa. It was upon him with lightning speed, leaving him no time to fight back, only to call for help.

Iron Bear was to the lake in the blink of an eye, running with a speed unseen for a man of his years and bulk. His sword flashed out quickly, striking aside the kappa’s claws as it swung for the young shugenja. With a quick stroke he lashed at the beast’s legs, then delivered a brutal pommel blow to the neck, forcing the kappa onto its knees, head bowed and spilling water upon the ground. The kappa shriveled and screamed with parched anger. Iron Bear gave the beast a solid kick, and sent it tumbling to the ground.

“Finish it, young Isawa.”
“But why, Iron Bear? You have defeated it, have you not earned the right to kill it?”
“I have killed more powerful men than this creature, and many of its kind as well. To slay this kappa would bring me no glory, and no pleasure. My task of protecting you is complete. If I slay the kappa it becomes another bead in a meaningless counting string for me. But you, Isawa, you are a rising Shugenja who will some day lead this clan. For a young man such as you victory over a kappa is something over your rivals. It is an impressing story to relay in court. It is a small foundation to build a reputation on. It will mean much more for you.”
“Thank you, Iron Bear. I won’t forget how well you have served me.”
“I served the Clan Phoenix, young Isawa.”
His tone was stern as ever, but Iron Bear’s lips curved up in a faint hint of a smile.
Level 5
Crusader is always a good place to start things. It means a durability that will last through later levels and a smattering of maneuvers that blend with your other classes. Feat choices right now are all tied up in prerequisites for the time being. Longsword is the Weapon Focus object because it helps you use your incarnate weapon when you get it. Steely Resolve 10 is a pretty large amount at early levels, and Furious Counterstrike helps bring the pain and prop up sagging BA from the SI, as does Weapon Focus.
Maneuvers are focusing mainly on Devoted Spirit and White Raven. Douse the Flames negates AoOs for your friends, Vanguard Strike gives a bonus to attack (crucial at low level), Crusader’s Strike is healing, Charging Minotaur’s for crude battlefield control. Foehammer punches through DR, Tactical Strike allows better positioning. White Raven Tactics is of course the quintessential Crusader spell, help your allies for a force to be reckoned with.

For stances things are simple for now. Begin combat using Leading the Charge and charge for extra damage, Charging Minotaur if you like and it’s available. Then once combat starts switch over to Martial Spirit and keep it on, heal yourself and allies.

I hear you asking about Azurin, and how and why it’s here. As for how, Magic of Incarnum explains that Azurin are often born not from Azurin parents, but from incarnum somehow influencing the soul of the child. Suffice to say, Azurin can be found in any environment with humans, including Clan Phoenix. As for why, you’ll see in the next breakdown.

Level 10
I told you you’d see why Azurin’s here. Extra essential for Incarnate is why! Incarnate is very friendly to adding taste to the dish because a single level gains access to every meld you can ever shape. A second level gives access to the crown bind, which means no magic hats, but access to 3 bind effects we care about: Crystal Helm, Enigma Helm, and Soulspark Familiar. Crystal helm gives deflection to AC and adds force descriptor to all attacks (take that ghosts!), Enigma Helm boosts will saves and grants immunity to charm effects (take that enchanters!), and Soulspark Familiar makes the Soulspark Familiar you create bigger and tougher. This is a weird little meld, the familiar’s useful as a flanking buddy, can be used to scout and harass, and gives you the Alertness feat, which is your in to the SI. You have 2 other melds to do anything and everything with as you please (you can boost or alter nearly any aspect on your sheet), though remember keep to shaped and essential effect only.

Other melds worth mentioning: Lucky dice to boos pretty much anything (or everything if you roll a 7. Gotta love craps!), Bluesteel bracers boost initiative and damage, Incarnate weapon for a nicer longsword you can boost attack and damage on, Dissolving Spittle for when a foe’s out of reach, and Incarnate Avatar to boost attack.

Now on to the SI. No Thought more than makes up for the Sis average BA, and is a great addition to your rising pool of attack and damage boosters. Aid Shugenja means your charge gets the most out of buffing you for combat, be sure to use it when it makes a difference. Dancing with the Elements combined with your already formidable saves and your ability to boost them makes you hard to put down, and even if you’re hit Zealous Surge gives you another chance.

Power Attack adds much needed damage, and you can offset the penalty pretty readily. Combat Reflexes is needed for the defender type, denying attacks on your charge. It’ll kick up more later.
Level 15
Almost done with the SI, we’ve added quite a few more tools to the bag. Saves are getting really high now thanks to Dancing with the Elements, and more uses of Aid Shugenja means you can be less stingy with using it. As for the Maximize ability, if you can most of the time I’d choose Empower instead. From a straight math perspective it’s more advantageous as the playground often says. Obviously there are certain spells with rolls you want to fix at maximum, but on the whole stick with Empower if you can. Not that the DC matters, you hit both without really trying. One with nothing’s boost is best used when really tearing into someone you want to bring down. Pairs nicely with Martial Spirit, more hits, more healing.

Wall of Blades is a great maneuver, roll attack and use in place of AC, pair well with your attack boosters for when you just don’t feel like getting ht.

Spellcaster Support is an odd little feat. If you make a Spellcraft check you can increase a friendly casters CL by 1. Not earth-shattering, but no limit so never bad. The real appeal is the second effect. If you threaten an opponent and the square your allied caster occupies, the caster does not have to cast defensively. They don’t automatically succeed, they simply don’t have to. This is very important because it means it trumps Mage Slayer. Your charge is safe in your hands. A reach weapon would pair well with this if you like.
Level 20
Finish the SI, now it’s time to have fun! Diamond Soul’s SR isn’t an impenetrable defense, but it is enough to stop wands and spells from paladin, ranger, etc. It’s one less thing to worry about, and even big casters can still fudge their rolls and make you feel like a king. One with All and Nothing’s super great, obviously you’re replacing everything with Wisdom. It’s great for rerolling with Zealous Surge to make sure you’re not affected, or countering a nasty attack with Wall of Blades. And of course, using it on an attack or save along with Aura of Perfect order is just jam on toast.

Martial Stance nabs Crusader’s best stance (in my opinion), the mighty Aura of Perfect Order. Once per round, treat any d20 as an 11. Attacking, Saving, making a bulrush attempt. It will come up a lot, and you should be in this stance as much as you can. Having the knowledge that you will roll 11 also lets you really let loose with power attack, because you know you can’t roll badly and just miss by a little.

And now our final class: Devoted Defender. It’s an odd class from Sword and Fist centered around protecting a single charge (here the Shugenja you protect) in combat, and it does that job very well It only has 3 class features, but they’re all granted in the first three levels. First it gives a +2 dodge bonus to AC which is never bad. Then the first real class feature: Harm’s Way. At any time if you are within 5 feet of your charge and your charge is attacked, you can simply swap places with your charge and take the hit instead. This occurs before attack rolls, so the attacker still has to roll to hit you, and just as importantly, you can Wall of Blades to knock it away. Or just take the hit in your large stack of replenishing hp and store for furious counterstrike. Your choice, as many times per round as you want.

Next, Defensive Strike: You gain an attack of opportunity any time anyone attacks your charge. Now Combat Reflexes really pays off. Note that you can use both this and Harm’s way in a single round, so penalize your foe for attacking, then deny them the right of actually getting to hit your charge.

Finally we have Deflect Attack: Once per round when adjacent to your charge you can make an opposed attack roll when your charge is attacked. If you beat the attacker, the attack is negated. Essentially Wall of Blades for your friend, with a free +1 bonus. How to make sure the attack is negated when it really counts? Aura of Perfect Order plus One with all and Nothing, plus stacked meld effects. You will beat the attacker and deny the attack from even happening. Make sure to also make your attack of opportunity as punishment for attacking your charge, since this feature isn’t an action.

These great unlimited abilities combined with your ability to move your Shugenja charge about with White Raven Maneuvers should give you near total control of the situation at all times.
Sources
Azurin, Incarnate: Magic of Incarnum
Crusader, Martial Study, Martial Stance: Tome of Battle
Devoted Defender: Sword and Fist
Spellcaster Support: Dragon Magazine OA update
Skilled City Dweller: Cityscape Web Enhancement
Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will: srd

[Heliomance]

And another triple samurai!


Shiba Sanjuu

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/l5r/images/6/66/Isawa's_Last_Wish.jpg

Race: Human (Phoenix Clan)
Build Stub: OA Samurai 2/CW Samurai 1/Fighter 2/Shiba Protector 10/Master Samurai 5
Ability Scores: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
Ability Increases: Dex 15 (4th), Wis 17 (8th), Wis 18 (12th), Wis 19 (16th), Wis 20 (20th)
Languages: Rokugani, Spirit Tongue, Tengu
Alignment: LG
Multiclass Penalty: No.



Sanjuu was praying at the family shrine when he heard the panel behind him open, but he was on his feat and standing at attention before the panel stopped moving and Lord Akuma stepped through.

"Kuriko, is she--" Sanyuu blurted out, but Lord Akuma cut him short with an icy stare.

"Lady Isawa will recover," said Lord Akuma, with a sharp emphasis on the formal family name. "You got her out in time, and my healers have cleaned out the assassins' poison. The Crown Prince, however... was not so fortunate."

A heavy silence filled the room, although it took a few moments for Sanjuu to realize Lord Akuma had said something else that didn't involve Kuriko. Sanjuu felt the blood in his veins go cold as the realization sunk in. His head spun as he felt his senses detach from the world around him. Then, as if only dimly aware of it from a great distance away, he felt his tongue move: "But you said... the healers... the poison..."

Lord Akuma barely shook his head, but the movement was iron-sharp and precise, like a katana slice. "It was more than just the poison. His body was badly burned. And there was something else, something that destroyed more than his body. His soul, I fear it may have already crossed the Golden Bridge. It is beyond the magic of my healers. Undoubtedly, the Dragon Emperor will try his healers. If they fail, we face the full wrath of the Dragon Emperor. If they succeed... then we face the full wrath of the Dragon Emperor and his son. Either way... there will be no Betrothal."

Another heavy silence filled the room. Sanjuu waited as Lord Akuma silently stared at him. Finally, after what seemed like a lifetime, the old lord's face sagged and his eyes closed. Lord Akuma said quietly, barely a whisper, "Shibu Sanyuu. Why did rescue my daughter first, before going back in for the Crown Prince?"

Sanyuu felt his blood suddenly enflame. "I swore an oath! To protect Lady Isawa--"

Lord Akuma cut him off again. "Yes, but *I* swore an oath to the Dragon Emperor! This was not an escort mission, this was not in the Shadowlands. This was under my own roof. By choosing to save Kuriko first... oh, you damnable fool, you lovesick little fool! You have saved my daughter, but doomed us all. And yet... Kuriko lives. My only daughter, she lives. For that, I am in your debt." Lord Akuma opened his eyes and locked them on Sanyuu. "I will now discharge that debt. Take Kuriko. Get her out of the city. Keep her alive, as you have done tonight, you will do so for every waking and unwaking moment hereafter. But this is not my gift to you, these are my orders as your lord. My gift to you is a tiny, fragile flicker of hope. I do not know how long this hope will last. If I survive the Dragon Emperor's wrath, Kuriko may need to marry for political reasons. If I do not survive the Dragon Emperor's wrath, you will be hunted to the ends of the earth. She may tire of you, or fall for some other fool that strikes her fancy. But if you keep Kuriko alive, and you both survive everything that follows... then I give you hope that some day, I think you may be worthy of her."

"Lord Akuma, I... I c-c-c-" stammered Sanyuu.

Lord Akuma cut him off. "Don't you dare talk! Go, you lovesick fool, go!"






Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
OA Samurai 1
+1
+3
+2
+6
Balance 2(cc), Diplomacy 4, Iajutsu Focus 4, Intimidate 4, Jump 4, Know:Rel 2(cc), Tumble 4(ACF)
Alertness, Iron Will
Ancestral Daisho


2nd
OA Samurai 2
+2
+4
+2
+7
Diplomacy 5, Iajutsu Focus 5, Jump 5, Sense Motive 3, Tumble 5(ACF)
Combat Expertise



3rd
CW Samurai
+3
+6
+2
+7
Know:Nob&Roy 5
Power Attack, EWP:Bastard Sword
Daisho Proficiency


4th
Fighter 1
+4
+8
+2
+7
Jump 6, Know:Rel 3(cc), Tumble 7(ACF)
Cleave



5th
Fighter 2
+5
+9
+2
+7
Jump 8, Know:Rel 4(cc), Tumble 8(ACF)
TWF



6th
Shiba Protector 1
+5
+11
+2
+9
Balance 3(cc), Jump 9, Sense Motive 4, Tumble 9(ACF)
WF:Bastard Sword
No Thought


7th
Shiba Protector 2
+6
+12
+2
+10
Balance 4(cc), Jump 10, Sense Motive 5, Tumble 10(ACF)

Aid Shugenja 1/day


8th
Shiba Protector 3
+7
+12
+3
+10
Balance 5(cc), Jump 11, Spellcraft 1, Tumble 11(ACF)

Dancing With The Elements +2


9th
Shiba Protector 4
+8
+13
+3
+11
Jump 12, Spellcraft 4, Tumble 12(ACF)
Improved Initiative
Aid Shugenja 2/day


10th
Shiba Protector 5
+8
+13
+3
+11
Jump 13, Ride 1(cc), Tumble 13(ACF)

Dancing With The Elements +4


11th
Shiba Protector 6
+9
+14
+4
+12
Iajutsu Focus 6, Jump 14, Ride 2(cc), Tumble 14(ACF)

One With Nothing, Aid Shugenja 3/day


12th
Shiba Protector 7
+10
+14
+4
+13
Iajutsu Focus 7, Jump 15, Ride 3(cc), Tumble 15(ACF)
Mounted Combat
Dancing With The Elements +6


13th
Shiba Protector 8
+11
+15
+4
+14
Iajutsu Focus 8, Jump 16, Ride 4(cc), Tumble 16(ACF)

Aid Shugenja (Maximize) 4/day


14th
Shiba Protector 9
+11
+15
+5
+14
Craft:Weaponsmith 3, Jump 17, Tumble 17(ACF)

Diamond Soul


15th
Shiba Protector 10
+12
+16
+5
+15
Iajutsu Focus 11, Jump 18, Tumble 18(ACF)
Mounted Archery
One With All And Nothing


16th
Master Samurai 1
+13
+16
+7
+17
Iajutsu Focus 12(cc), Jump 19, Ride 5, Tumble 19
Great Cleave
Tumble Bonus


17th
Master Samurai 2
+14
+16
+8
+18
Iajutsu Focus 13(cc), Jump 20, Ride 6, Tumble 20

Blades of Fury, Supreme Cleave


18th
Master Samurai 3
+15
+17
+8
+18
Iajutsu Focus 14(cc), Jump 21, Ride 7, Tumble 21
Oversized TWF
Supreme Mobility


19th
Master Samurai 4
+16
+17
+9
+19
Iajutsu Focus 15(cc), Jump 22, Ride 8, Tumble 22

Blades of Death


20th
Exotic Weapon Master 1
+17
+19
+9
+20
Intimidate 5, Jump 23(cc), Tumble 23(cc)

Exotic Weapon Stunt: Uncanny Blow






My original idea was to start with OA Samurai 2/CW Samurai 3, but... words cannot describe just how much the CW version is so thoroughly wretched and asinine. "Two Swords As One" locks me into wakizashi as my offhand weapon, which means I can't take advantage of Power Attack by using Improved Unarmed Strike or Oversized TWF as my offhand weapon. So I took Fighter 2 instead to get standard TWF and another feat to help qualify for Master Samurai later. Kiai Smite (CW Samurai 3) was nearly useless, because I was drowning in useless feat taxes that required Dex 15 and Int 13, so I had to dump Charisma. I wound up keeping one level of CW Samurai because it does two things: it gives me EWP Bastard Sword (Ugh... why do OA Samurai have to spend a feat on this?), and it gives me Knowledge (nobility and royalty) as a class skill, which is something I needed later for Master Samurai.

For the first 5 levels, Sanjuu plays like any typical meatbag samurai:
1) Hit it with your katana.
2) Repeat step 1.
In combat, Sanjuu typically wields his katana two-handed and uses armor spikes as his offhand weapon until he can save up enough for an item that can give him Improved Unarmed Strike, such as: Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic). Once he has IUS, he can use Power Attack for both his primary and offhand weapon.

Level 5 is Sanjuu's first "Sweet Spot" in that he's got a couple more feats than a standard Samurai or Fighter, he's still pulling his weight as a frontline meatbag, and most spellcasters haven't quite gone quadratic yet. There's another bright spot at Level 14, but there's a long dry stretch in between.

(If your DM ixnays using both the OA and CW Samurai in the same build, consider replacing CW Samurai with a level of Ranger for the Arcane Hunter ACF, wield the katana as a two-handed martial weapon, and maybe replace TWF and Oversized TWF with Blind-Fight and Mage Slayer.)




Sanjuu gets into the SI and, other than the easy cop-out of "It's traditional for Clan Phoenix to protect their shugenjas with Shiba Protectors", one might wonder *why*? "No Thought" is the gem every Wis-based build is eager to dip, although Sanjuu has some difficulty focusing his SAD (Single Ability Dependency) on Wis if he wants to use both Power Attack and TWF. As someone who commonly escorts shugenjas and other important Clan Phoenix notables through the Shadowlands, Sanjuu will frequently run into Oni, and the "Dancing With The Elements" bonus allows him to shrug off the nasty SLAs they frequently have. "Aid shugenja" is tougher to use, as at these levels there are hardly any shugenja spells outside of the cure/restoration lines, so this is more commonly used to help keep Sanjuu alive rather than Sanjuu keeping his shugenja alive, but presumably a cured/restored Shiba Protector is more capable of returning the favor than a dead Shiba Protector.




Sanjuu finishes off the SI while he collects more feats to qualify for Master Samurai, saving the two Mounted Combat feats for last. One might wonder why he'd even bother with riding skills/feats, but presumably the designers felt that the "historical" samurai rode horses into battle. More likely this is just for ceremonial reasons now that most shugenja around this level can cast teleport. But in any case, should the need arise, Sanjuu can now ride and fight from the saddle, if need be. Using Diplomacy, he can try to pick up an intelligent flying mount, such as a giant eagle, pegasus, or griffon (preferably with the Fire subtype). This would allow him to challenge opponents with flight capabilities.

Sanjuu's second "Sweet Spot" is Level 14, when he gets Diamond Soul. Spell Resistance isn't something you commonly find on melee builds, and on top of Dancing with the Elements, this makes him particularly resistant to a wide variety of spells and magical attacks. Yes, a bog-standard Fighter 14 or Samurai 14 could just *buy* Spell Resistance as an item or armor enhancement, but it's really expensive and it's difficult to buy anything higher than SR 21 (90K for Mantle of Spell Resistance). Sanjuu's SR is (Ex) so it can't be dispelled/stolen/disjuncted, works in an AMF, and is at least 24 without Wis buffs, so for at least for a few levels has a decent chance to beat caster level checks against similar-ECL spellcasters.

Let's review what else the SI does for Sanjuu.

No Thought: Allows Sanjuu to focus his resources on a single ability score (SAD), or save money by buffing both Str and Wis (Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 and Periapt of Wisdom +2 is half the cost of a Periapt of Wisdom +4). He doesn't have Wis to AC, but he can get that by picking up a Monk's Belt.

Aid Shugenja: Sanjuu doesn't have any spellcasting, so he can't use this on himself, but shugenja is the favored class of Clan Phoenix, and as one of the chosen Shiba Protectors of the Clan, it's his *job* to protect the shugenjas in his clan. So it can be reasonably assumed that he will frequently travelling with and protecting a fair share of Clan Phoenix shugenjas. With only Con 12, he's going to need to empower/maximize quite a few cure spells to keep fighting. Also, Sanjuu will likely invest in a few Glyph Seals (1000/4000 GP, MIC), so a friendly shugenja can cast some buffs pre-battle and let Sanjuu trigger them later. Unfortunately, outside of the cure/restoration/heal spells, there are hardly any shugenja spells with variable effects that can be cast on a Shiba Protector. There are a couple weaponlike spells that might work: yari of air or tetsubo of earth both have "Range: touch", but Clan Phoenix's preferred element/school is [fire] and flame blade has "Range: 0 ft." Fortunately, Agasha/Fire shugenjas can cast fires of purity on Sanjuu, and that can certainly be Empowered/Maximized.

Dancing With the Elements: The two greatest threats a shugenja is likely to run into are Oni in the Shadowlands and enemy spellcasters. This helps Sanjuu shrug off spell effects/SLAs (and hopefully shore up that horrible Ref save). It's kinda odd, though... most "element" spells involve Ref saves, but Ref is the Shiba Protector's worst save.

One With Nothing: Do extra attacks go well with TWF? Yes, have some! I wish it were more than 3/day. Also, I mentioned that horrible Ref save... well, every +1 counts!

Diamond Soul: I already talked about this as Sanjuu's "Sweet Spot", but to reiterate: the ability to shrug off spells and various magical attacks helps Sanjuu stand out from your standard meatbags. It can't be dispelled/stolen/disjuncted, works in an AMF, and for a few levels at least has a chance to beat caster level checks against similar-ECL spellcasters.

One With All And Nothing: 5/day, Sanjuu can switch in his +5 Wis bonus for a Ref save, Fort save, or one of those make-or-break skill checks (probably Charisma-related). In combat... well, see Sanjuu's "Capstone Attack" below.




Sanjuu finally qualifies for Master Samurai, mostly for "prestige reasons" (he certainly didn't do it for all those nearly useless prereq feats). Great Cleave/Supreme Cleave are unlikely to ever be useful... but that one time he actually gets surrounded by mooks and cleaves through them all? It.. will... be... GLORIOUS! With Blades of Fury we maybe see some of the idiocy that gave rise to the CW Samurai. He had to take Improved Initative to qualify for Master Samurai, but in order to use Blades of Fury he has to deliberately stop using it... however, at least by RAW the +2 untyped bonus to attack/damage applies to all his attacks rather than just his katana. Supreme Mobility makes a point about superseding boring ol' normal Mobility, but thankfully this notorious feat tax was not included among the laundry list of prereqs. Blades of Death helps set up Sanjuu's "Capstone Attack":

At ECL 20, Sanjuu takes Exotic Weapon Master and the Exotic Weapon Stunt: Uncanny Blow. He has Power Attack, so when he's wielding a katana in each hand, "he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls". Since the katanas now count as being wielded two-handed, Blades of Death gives him double his Str bonus. 10 levels of Shiba Protector finally pays off, as he can now use "One With All Or Nothing" to substitute his +5 Wis bonus for his Str bonus, which gets doubled to +10, and then he gets another +5 damage from "No Thought". Sanjuu's full attack at level 20 (without magic items):

katana1 +22/katana2 +22/katana1 +17/katana1 +12/katana1 +7
Average damage per hit: 20.5 (54.5 at Full Power Attack)

Ok, maybe not so impressive compared to an Ubercharger, but not too shabby for a Shiba Protector. Ancestral Daisho allows Sanyuu to add weapon properties to his katana while saving him GP that would be lost on trade-ins or paying someone with Craft Weapons & Armor. At 18th level, his katana would likely have the Flaming Burst (+2), Corrosive (+1), Desiccating (+1), Enfeebling (+1), Holy (+2), and Collision (+2) properties. If funds allow, his wakizashi would likely have the same properties, except instead of Collision would have Morphing (+1) and Variable (+1) instead. This would allow him to morph the wakizashi into a light spiked shield (light melee weapon), switch it to a heavy spiked shield (one-handed melee weapon), and then morph it into a katana (one-handed melee weapon). Thus, he can dual-wield two katanas while still taking advantage of his Ancestral Daisho.

(Yes, I am aware that the "Uncanny Blow" trick is ambiguous, and some DMs may not agree with this interpretation, but... ok, this is at ECL 20, so I figure even a tightwad DM would give me a break here. If the DM says "No", then take a different stunt, such as TWin Exotic Weapon Fighting, or just drop one katana and two-hand it for the "finishing move". Armor spikes can be offhand, or Fanged Ring for IUS should be well within WBL.)




Book of Exalted Deeds: Enfeebling enchantment
Cityscape Web Enhancement: Skilled City-Dweller ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)
Complete Adventurer: Oversized TWF
Complete Warrior: Samurai, Exotic Weapon Master
Magic Item Compendium: Corrosive, Desiccating, Collision, Morphing, Variable enchantments
Sword & Fist: Master Samurai

[Heliomance]

And that's the lot! Go, judges!

[Venger]

well that's some http://www.nohighscores.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/calendar-man-4-30-slim-pickens.jpg

two samurai/samurai/samurai. how about that?

[The Viscount]

Three devoted defenders, two triple samurai, and only one entry that isn't plain OA Phoenix human. And a partridge in a pear tree.
Looks like judges have quite the menu before them.

[Sian]

the one i had in the tank but didn't flesh out was a Azurin [Shou] (subtribe of Humans in Forgotten realms which have a strong tie to Kara-Tur which were where Oriental Adventures ran around in AD&D), Cleric of Tyr 4 / Ordained Champion 5 / Devoted Defender 1 / Shiba Protector, leaning on Azurin Cleric ACFs and Shape Soulmeld Lammasu Mantle + Open Least Chakra Bind, to defend my liege to the best of my ability in his travels back and forth between Unapproachable East and Shou Lung (Strong Imperial China)

[WhamBamSam]

My idea was Changeling Martial Rogue 2/Paladin 3/Swordsage 4/Shiba Protector 10/Battlesmith 1, using Racial Emulation to take Shiba Protector, Battlesmith, and Yondalla's Sense (the default form would be a halfling since Yondalla's Sense is the only thing you actually seem to be able to disqualify yourself from. Also Serenity and Intuitive Attack, becuase no Sir Wisdom the SAD build is complete without them. Ends up with Wis to attack twice (thrice on the one daily Smite), damage twice with a warhammer (thrice on Diamond Mind strikes, 4.5 times if you also replace Str with Wis using One with All and Nothing, 9 if the particular Diamond Mind strike happens to be Ruby Nightmare Blade), AC, Saves, and Initiative. Also had a few other nice things like Social Intuition+Baffling Defense, the Spell Reflection ACF in Complete Mage to use in conjunction with Aid Shugenja (with some miss chances from low level Shadow Hand stuff to help it along, sadly, spell reflection eats your immediate action, so it can't be used with the Social Intuition/Baffling Defense combo like I initially thought) to fling back attack roll spells that enemy Shugenjas try to cast at you, and CL23 for magic arms and armor crafting, thanks to Secrets of the Forge and the Draconic Rite of Passage.

It would have taken a hammering from the judges of course, not least because it requires some manner of "everything connects to the great wheel" hand waive to exist in Rokugan at all. I still wish I'd finished the write up though.

[Amphetryon]

Huh. I guess Ardent wasn't as obvious a fit as I'd originally figured.

[Venger]

Huh. I guess Ardent wasn't as obvious a fit as I'd originally figured.

how'd you figure?

[dysprosium]

I'm befuddled by Ardent as well. It never even occurred to me to use that.

Though I am really surprised at three Devoted Defenders. I guessed that there was going to be at least one triple samurai but not two.

[Vaz]

Wis focus, can Dip very effextively, 10/10 builds can get extremely powerful with dominant mantle acf, substitute power acf to pick up bargain bin choice powers/spell equivalents if you want to cheese it via spell to power and wyrm wizards, in combination with haste and other time bending funzies available for caster, and psionics being a fantastic equivalent for 'chi' resources rather than highly limited stunning fist resources, poor saves on ardent are nicely improved upon by prc. Powers like Sense Danger+Anticipatory Strike, etc all fit well with bodyguard ideals

It was my first choice, but ardents are like my favourite class ever, and I wanted to a - try something different b - I couldn't make it work c - I figured somebody else would and d - procradtination e - I might judge

[Darrin]

My first idea, I was looking through the shugenja spells for something interesting to empower/maximize, and stumbled across bewildering mischance in Complete Champion. I thought, hey, what happens when you maximize this "roll twice" effect? Do you get two natural 20's? Can I persist that for 24 hours of natural 20's? And while that would have been amaziborked, I didn't think any sane DM/judge would let that fly. Even if I can convince someone that the "roll twice" is a variable spell effect, it boils down to: can you maximize an attack roll? Take a maximized scorching ray, for example... the ranged touch attack is a random variable, but it doesn't get maximized.

My second idea was a 20-foot-punch build with a persisted blood wind, leveraging No Thought with Intuitive Attack and possibly Zen Archery. But getting that spell on a shugenja spell list was a horrible PITA. I figured out something that would work, but it took too long to set up, and sacrificed so many resources getting the trick working that there wasn't enough left to make the trick effective. The basic gist of it:

Race: Illumian (Naen-Hoon)
1) Shugenja 1. Feat: Extend Spell.
2) Shaman 1.
3) Shaman 2. Feat: Versatile Spellcaster.
4) Shaman 3.
5) Shaman 4. Bonus: Iron Will.
6) Sorcerer 1. Feat: Ocular Spell. Bonus: Alertness (familiar).
7) Geomancer 1.
8) Geomancer 2.
9) Passive Way Monk 1. Feat: Persist Spell. Bonus: Combat Expertise.
10) Passive Way Monk 2. Bonus: Improved Trip.
11) Shiba 1.
12) Shiba 2. Feat: Intuitive Attack.
13) Shiba 3.
14) Shiba 4.
15) Shiba 5. Feat: Zen Archery.
16) Shiba 6.
17) Shiba 7.
18) Shiba 8. Feat: Something... maybe Knock-Down or Superior Unarmed Strike.
19) Shiba 9.
20) Shiba 10.

Cast blood wind into one of my eyes, using Geomancer to make it count as divine, and using Naen-Hoon's DMM to keep it as a 1st level spell. Then cast it again as an ocular spell, and use my second Naen-Hoon DMM to persist it. (There was also a version with regular DMM and Improved Sigil: Krau, and I wasn't sure which method was best.)

But Zen Archery doesn't stack with Intuitive Attack. The former replaces Dex with Wis, the latter Str with Wis. I tried reworking it with Kensai/Bloodstorm Blade (throwing my fists), but couldn't fit everything in. While I was working out the kinks, I got distracted by my third idea, and wound up finishing that instead.

I am surprised none of the entries took shugenja levels. I thought that would be the best way to get the most out of Aid Shugenja.

[Venger]

Probably for the best you didn't then. That does sound tricky. As far as why there weren't more shugenjas for one no one uses them. Also the secret ingredient doesn't progress casting so they certainty would've seen a power ding. Plus it drags charisma in and that's about the only stat you could otherwise afford to neglect

[Amphetryon]

One big problem I had with this particular SI was that, to an extent, you had to think in terms of optimizing a second Character, or at least a second Character's Spells. You had to work under the assumption that a Shugenja was in the party (and, as I hinted at earlier in the thread, such assumptions about Party composition have gotten deductions in the past), and then you likely had to specify which Spells - or even which Element and Order - your Party's Shugenja had, providing more potential for trouble in scoring.

[KrimsonNekros]

this is where I got to sadly.


http://wallpaperres.com/wp-content/uploads/Assassin-Ninja-Anime-001.jpg
Ketsuiki, Hidden Guardian
Human, LG, Monk 4/ Ninja 6/ Shiba Protector 10

Abilities:



Strength Dexterity Constitution Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Reason
12 15 12 14 16 8 32-point buy
12 16 12 14 16 8 4th
12 16 12 14 17 8 8th
12 16 12 14 18 8 12th
12 16 12 14 19 8 16th
12 16 12 14 20 8 20th



Build:


Level Class BAB Fort Ref Will Skills Feats Features
1 Monk +0 + 2 + 2 + 2 Balance (Dex) 4
Jump (Str) 4
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 4
Listen (Wis) 4
Move Silently (Dex) 4
Spot (Wis) 4
Tumble (Dex) 4 Combat Expertise
Two-Weapon Fighting
Stunning Fist
Improved Unarmed Strike Flurry of Blows
Unarmed Damage
2 Monk +1 + 3 + 3 + 3 Balance (Dex) 5 (1)
Jump (Str) 5 (1)
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5 (1)
Listen (Wis) 5 (1)
Move Silently (Dex) 5 (1)
Spot (Wis) 5 (1)
Tumble (Dex) 5 (1) Combat Reflexes Evasion
3 Ninja +1 + 3 + 5 + 3 Balance (Dex) 6 (1)
Disable Device (Int) 2 (2)
Hide (Dex) 2 (2)
Jump (Str) 6 (1)
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 5
Move Silently (Dex) 6 (1)
Spot (Wis) 6 (1)
Tumble (Dex) 6 (1) Weapon Finesse Ki Power
Sudden Strike
Trapfinding
4 Ninja +2 + 3 + 6 + 3 Balance (Dex) 7 (1)
Disable Device (Int) 6 (4)
Hide (Dex) 4 (2)
Jump (Str) 7 (1)
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 5
Move Silently (Dex) 7 (1)
Spot (Wis) 6
Tumble (Dex) 6 - Ghost Step (Invisible)
5 Ninja +3 + 4 + 6 + 4 Balance (Dex) 8 (1)
Disable Device (Int) 8 (2)
Hide (Dex) 6 (2)
Jump (Str) 8 (1)
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 6 (1)
Move Silently (Dex) 8 (1)
Open Locks (Dex) 1 (1)
Spot (Wis) 6
Tumble (Dex) 6
- Sudden Strike +2d6, Poison Use
6 Monk +4 + 4 + 6 + 4 Balance (Dex) 9 (1)
Disable Device (Int) 8
Hide (Dex) 7 (1)
Jump (Str) 9 (1)
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 7 (1)
Move Silently (Dex) 9 (1)
Open Locks (Dex) 1
Spot (Wis) 7 (1)
Tumble (Dex) 7 (1)
Iron Will Still Mind
7 Monk +5 + 5 + 7 + 5 Balance (Dex) 10(1)
Disable Device (Int) 8
Hide (Dex) 8 (1)
Jump (Str) 10 (1)
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 8 (1)
Move Silently (Dex) 10 (1)
Open Locks (Dex) 1
Spot (Wis) 8 (1)
Tumble (Dex) 8 (1) - Ki Strike (Magic), Slow Fall 20 ft
8 Ninja +6/+1 + 5 + 8 + 5 Balance (Dex) 11(1)
Disable Device (Int) 8
Hide (Dex) 9 (1)
Jump (Str) 10
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 9 (1)
Move Silently (Dex) 11 (1)
Open Locks (Dex) 4 (3)
Spot (Wis) 9 (1)
Tumble (Dex) 9 (1) - Great Leap
9 Ninja +6/+1 + 5 + 8 + 5 Balance (Dex) 12(1)
Disable Device (Int) 8
Hide (Dex) 10 (1)
Jump (Str) 10
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 10 (1)
Move Silently (Dex) 12 (1)
Open Locks (Dex) 7 (3)
Spot (Wis) 10 (1)
Tumble (Dex) 10 (1) Alertness Sudden Strike +3d6
10 Shiba Protector +6/+1 + 7 + 8 + 7 Balance (Dex) 12
Disable Device (Int) 8
Hide (Dex) 10
Iajutsu Focus (Cha) 2 (2)
Jump (Str) 10
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 10
Move Silently (Dex) 12
Open Locks (Dex) 7
Search (Int) 1 (1)
Spellcraft 1 (1)
Spot (Wis) 10
Tumble (Dex) 10.5(1) -
No Thought
11 Shiba Protector +7/+2 + 8 + 8 + 8 Balance (Dex) 12
Disable Device (Int) 8
Hide (Dex) 10
Iajutsu Focus (Cha) 4 (2)
Jump (Str) 10
Knowledge (Religion)(Int) 5
Listen (Wis) 10
Move Silently (Dex) 12
Open Locks (Dex) 7
Search (Int) 2 (1)
Spellcraft 2 (1)
Spot (Wis) 10
Tumble (Dex) 11(1) -
Aid Shugenja 1/Day
12 Shiba Protector +8/+3 + 8 + 9 + 8 - Ascetic Stalker Dancing With The Elements +2
13 Ninja +9/+4 + 9 + 10 + 9 - - Acrobatics +2, Ki Dodge
14 Shiba Protector +10/+5 + 10 + 10 + 10 - - Aid Shugenja 2/Day
15 Shiba Protector +10/+5 + 10 + 10 + 10 - Freezing the Lifeblood Dancing With The Elements +4
16 Shiba Protector +11/+6/+1 + 11 + 11 + 11 - - One With Nothing, Aid Shugenja 3/Day
17 Shiba Protector +12/+7/+2 + 11 + 11 + 11 - - Dancing With The Elements +6
18 Shiba Protector +12/+7/+2 + 12 + 11 + 12 - Snap Kick Aid Shugenja (Maximize) 4/Day
19 Shiba Protector +13/+8/+3 + 12 + 12 + 12 - - Diamond Soul
20 Shiba Protector +14/+9/+4 + 13 + 12 + 13 - - One With All and Nothing





Fluff:



Sources:


Item Source Page
Ninja Complete Adventurer 5
Ascetic Stalker Complete Scoundrel 10
Freezing the Lifeblood Complete Warrior 99
Snap Kick Tome of Battle 32



Notes:

[OMG PONIES]

The farthest I got was to "head scratching." Looks like I'm spectating this round.

[Darrin]

One big problem I had with this particular SI was that, to an extent, you had to think in terms of optimizing a second Character, or at least a second Character's Spells. You had to work under the assumption that a Shugenja was in the party (and, as I hinted at earlier in the thread, such assumptions about Party composition have gotten deductions in the past), and then you likely had to specify which Spells - or even which Element and Order - your Party's Shugenja had, providing more potential for trouble in scoring.

I was surprised at how few shugenja spells could be cast on an ally that could also be empowered/maximized. But that's what makes this such an appropriate ingredient for Iron Chef: "Hey, let's design some class abilities that are almost impossible to use, or are just nearly useless!" Even if the Shiba Protector takes shugenja levels to cast personal spells on himself, the spell list is almost devoid of anything with variable effects. I looked at maybe adding some more interesting spells to the shugenja list, but most of the non-controversial methods are all arcane-only. Sand Shaper might have worked, but was extremely dubious: Desert Insight doesn't say which spell list it adds the new spells to, so a Shugenja/Sorcerer could maybe add them to the shugenja list? Probably not. And even though Sand Shaper adds a lot of spells, I didn't see any with variable effects that you'd want to cast on yourself. That and having enough shugenja levels and enough sorcerer levels while taking 10 levels of a non-caster PrC wasn't looking workable.

Oh, that reminds me of another trick that I fiddled with... and while it was also kinda dubious from a rules standpoint, I'm surprised no one else tried it:

The wording on "Aid Shugenja" mentions "shugenja's spell", but doesn't specify that it has to be a divine spell from the shugenja's spell list. What originally led me to blood wind (another spell that can't be empowered/maximized) was something that started with Shugenja 1/Sorcerer X, and empowering/maximizing spells from the Sorcerer list. I figured I'd get dinged by a judge for exploiting the ambiguous wording, but that opens up a lot more interesting options for empower/maximize. Might be some Channel Spell shenanigans in that direction as well.

[WhamBamSam]

One big problem I had with this particular SI was that, to an extent, you had to think in terms of optimizing a second Character, or at least a second Character's Spells. You had to work under the assumption that a Shugenja was in the party (and, as I hinted at earlier in the thread, such assumptions about Party composition have gotten deductions in the past), and then you likely had to specify which Spells - or even which Element and Order - your Party's Shugenja had, providing more potential for trouble in scoring.This is sort of true. I spent a fair bit of time looking over the Shugenja list to see if there was anything that targeted an ally and was worth Empowering/Maximizing, or anything that used an attack roll that would be funny to reflect back Empowered/Maximized.

I then spent another decent chunk of time just figuring out how I could get a Shugenja to cast Owl's Insight, since it can be Empowered and my build was almost entirely about being Wis-SAD. The most elegant solution ended up being the tried and true Holt Warden 1/Contemplative 1 for domain slots and the Spell Domain, so as to cast it with Greater Anyspell, though that required a dip in another divine spellcasting class with access to Entangle (Probably Urban Companion Swift and Deadly Hunter Druid, or Consecrated Harrier for a more Rokugan friendly solution).


I was surprised at how few shugenja spells could be cast on an ally that could also be empowered/maximized. But that's what makes this such an appropriate ingredient for Iron Chef: "Hey, let's design some class abilities that are almost impossible to use, or are just nearly useless!" Even if the Shiba Protector takes shugenja levels to cast personal spells on himself, the spell list is almost devoid of anything with variable effects. I looked at maybe adding some more interesting spells to the shugenja list, but most of the non-controversial methods are all arcane-only. Sand Shaper might have worked, but was extremely dubious: Desert Insight doesn't say which spell list it adds the new spells to, so a Shugenja/Sorcerer could maybe add them to the shugenja list? Probably not. And even though Sand Shaper adds a lot of spells, I didn't see any with variable effects that you'd want to cast on yourself. That and having enough shugenja levels and enough sorcerer levels while taking 10 levels of a non-caster PrC wasn't looking workable.

Oh, that reminds me of another trick that I fiddled with... and while it was also kinda dubious from a rules standpoint, I'm surprised no one else tried it:

The wording on "Aid Shugenja" mentions "shugenja's spell", but doesn't specify that it has to be a divine spell from the shugenja's spell list. What originally led me to blood wind (another spell that can't be empowered/maximized) was something that started with Shugenja 1/Sorcerer X, and empowering/maximizing spells from the Sorcerer list. I figured I'd get dinged by a judge for exploiting the ambiguous wording, but that opens up a lot more interesting options for empower/maximize. Might be some Channel Spell shenanigans in that direction as well.I had thought that was what your Geomancer levels were for. So you could cast Sorcerer spells as if they were Shugenja spells. That's a bit of a stretch in its own right though.

I kinda figure that Shugenja's spell refers to a spell cast as a Shugenja spell, sort of like how a multiclass Wizard's banned spells don't extend to his other spellcasting classes.

[Darrin]

I had thought that was what your Geomancer levels were for. So you could cast Sorcerer spells as if they were Shugenja spells. That's a bit of a stretch in its own right though.


There's some controversy over what exactly counts as a "spellcasting parameter" that I don't think we properly explored with IC XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266709-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XLI). Switching arcane/divine was explicitly listed as possible, while changing which spell list a spell originates from was not. This comes up often with Battle Blessing.

But all I wanted was the "divine" part for blood wind to satisfy DMM. Hmm. Now that I think about it, I didn't need the Geomancer levels to use Naen-Hoon DMM. Dagnabbit!



I kinda figure that Shugenja's spell refers to a spell cast as a Shugenja spell, sort of like how a multiclass Wizard's banned spells don't extend to his other spellcasting classes.

The text says "shugenja's spell" but doesn't specify if that spell needs to be divine, from his spell list, etc. If I am a shugenja with sorcerer levels, and I cast an arcane spell from the sorcerer's list, I am still a shugenja casting a spell. At least, that's the RAW argument... but I had a feeling it might not go over well with the judges. I thought it was such an obvious trick, I should post about it and ask for a ruling beforehand, but decided not to because it might be considered "speculation".

[Deadline]

The farthest I got was to "head scratching." Looks like I'm spectating this round.

I got to thinking that I should take Shugenja levels myself so that I wouldn't have to rely on one being in the party, but that train of thought didn't even leave the station.

[Venger]

I got to thinking that I should take Shugenja levels myself so that I wouldn't have to rely on one being in the party, but that train of thought didn't even leave the station.

well, the chair said it was ok if we assumed we had a shugenja to pal around with, so no one missed out on anything.

[Amphetryon]

well, the chair said it was ok if we assumed we had a shugenja to pal around with, so no one missed out on anything.

I just went back and looked; when, exactly, did she do that? I asked about it, but that did not appear to be the part of my post which she answered

[OMG PONIES]

I just maaay have time to judge. If I do, I'm going to try a departure from my usual rubric that will be widely embraced or hated. So you know, the usual :smallwink:.

[Venger]

I just went back and looked; when, exactly, did she do that? I asked about it, but that did not appear to be the part of my post which she answered
it seems as though you're right. I must've remembered your question and attributed it to the chair. either way, I can't see a reasonable judge punishing us for daring to think we'd actually get to use our crummy class features.


I just maaay have time to judge.

no harm if you don't. we've got quite the ratio of judges:cooks as it stands.


If I do, I'm going to try a departure from my usual rubric that will be widely embraced or hated. So you know, the usual :smallwink:.
god, what now? :smalltongue:
(I like your rubric, it makes your intentions known and lets chefs know how they failed to live up to your expectations)

[OMG PONIES]

god, what now? :smalltongue:
(I like your rubric, it makes your intentions known and lets chefs know how they failed to live up to your expectations)

I'm thinking of trying a stack ranking by category. For example, if there are six entries:

The least original entry will get 1 point for Originality.
The second-least original will get 2 points for Originality.
The two middling entries will each get 3 points for Originality.
The second-most original will get 4 points for Originality.
The most original entry will get 5 points for Originality..."Best in Show," if you will.
I'd still provide judges' commentary on each category for each entry, but it would be a little more free-wheeling than my current series of "Yes, No, Maybe So"s.

I plan on making sure my commentary isn't too sparse, but I anticipate it causing issues and disputes when Chef A tries to present a case for why their dish is more original than Chef B's or more powerful than Chef C's. However, we may see a more interesting spread of scores, with perfect 5s being more attainable. Rather than trying to surprise me (which I've heard is difficult), for instance, all it would take to snag a 5 in Originality would simply be to rise above this round's competition. To pick up a 5 in Power, you wouldn't have to beat out full Tier 1 casting; you'd just have to be more powerful & versatile than fellow entries. To snag a 5 in Elegance, you don't have to dot every I and cross every T--just play by the rules more than the others. And to snag a 5 in UoSI, you may not have to use every part of the god-awful buffalo...just more of it than your competitors.

More formal criteria on how I'll be stack ranking the entries will follow if I do wind up having time to judge. Preliminary thoughts from contestants, fellow judges, spectators, or the Chairwoman are welcome.

[Darrin]

More formal criteria on how I'll be stack ranking the entries will follow if I do wind up having time to judge. Preliminary thoughts from contestants, fellow judges, spectators, or the Chairwoman are welcome.

Very tempting, with just six entries... sounds a little similar to Kuulv's "instant runoff" experiment in IC: LIX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667). I tried to restrict myself to whole numbers in an attempt to speed things up for Dungeon Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376810), but wound up with too many ties and had to resort to half-points. Without half-points, you'll want to put some thought into tie-breakers.

[Venger]

I'm thinking of trying a stack ranking by category. For example, if there are six entries:

The least original entry will get 1 point for Originality.
The second-least original will get 2 points for Originality.
The two middling entries will each get 3 points for Originality.
The second-most original will get 4 points for Originality.
The most original entry will get 5 points for Originality..."Best in Show," if you will.
I'd still provide judges' commentary on each category for each entry, but it would be a little more free-wheeling than my current series of "Yes, No, Maybe So"s.

I plan on making sure my commentary isn't too sparse, but I anticipate it causing issues and disputes when Chef A tries to present a case for why their dish is more original than Chef B's or more powerful than Chef C's. However, we may see a more interesting spread of scores, with perfect 5s being more attainable. Rather than trying to surprise me (which I've heard is difficult), for instance, all it would take to snag a 5 in Originality would simply be to rise above this round's competition. To pick up a 5 in Power, you wouldn't have to beat out full Tier 1 casting; you'd just have to be more powerful & versatile than fellow entries. To snag a 5 in Elegance, you don't have to dot every I and cross every T--just play by the rules more than the others. And to snag a 5 in UoSI, you may not have to use every part of the god-awful buffalo...just more of it than your competitors.

More formal criteria on how I'll be stack ranking the entries will follow if I do wind up having time to judge. Preliminary thoughts from contestants, fellow judges, spectators, or the Chairwoman are welcome.

I urge you as strongly asi can not to do this. You yourself anticipate the issues will cause, so already that's a sign.

As a teacher , it is unconscionable to award different grades to two or more people who have done the same quality of work.

What you're suggesting is only assigning a certain number of As for arbitrary reasons rather than the actual quality of work.

This Will screw over chefs in larger rounds even more Since you are implying the middle Will be the only one to grow.


Having set grades also means if everyone does well or poorly your judging will not accurately reflect this.

I understand your desire to avoid having to justify your judging at length by having a system that has no room for argument in It but this is not the way. If you don't want to explain yourself toa dissatisfied chef you have to. It doesn't Mean you need to change your rubric

[Heliomance]

I'm... really not a fan of grading on a curve, in general. I'm significantly dubious about the idea.

[Venger]

I'm... really not a fan of grading on a curve, in general. I'm significantly dubious about the idea.

Thank you, chair.

[The Viscount]

I would advise against this. This system creates a flat disparity between entries regardless of actual skill. If a single entry outshines a mediocre rest, this entry is only a tad above, enough to be displaced by a dispute. If a single entry is illegal, not done right, or simply much worse than the one above it is only a tad below, enough to shift up from a dispute.

This system will make it much harder on you, because it means you cannot judge entries individually. In order to assign any score you have to read and fully asses all entries. In a round like dragon disciple where we have 20 entries, deciding which fraction of a point each gradation gets will be intensely annoying as well. Also, the more entries, the closer everyone gets, and the greater incentive to dispute.

I love your current system of judging because it lets us know exactly what you are looking for, objectively. If we must compete subjectively with everyone else for your attention, it will be impossible to properly build to expectations.

I understand your pain with the rising number of disputes, and it worries me as well, but the chefs are a contentious and bitter lot, and they will dispute regardless of system. That being said, if disputing is your largest concern, I do not see this helping. It might actually be time to enforce some rules about the dispute process.

[dysprosium]

I just maaay have time to judge.

I hope you will be able to. Your judging comments are greatly appreciated.


If I do, I'm going to try a departure from my usual rubric that will be widely embraced or hated. So you know, the usual :smallwink:.

I'm thinking of trying a stack ranking by category. For example, if there are six entries:
•The least original entry will get 1 point for Originality.
•The second-least original will get 2 points for Originality.
•The two middling entries will each get 3 points for Originality.
•The second-most original will get 4 points for Originality.
•The most original entry will get 5 points for Originality..."Best in Show," if you will.

I'd still provide judges' commentary on each category for each entry, but it would be a little more free-wheeling than my current series of "Yes, No, Maybe So"s.

:smallconfused:

But I like the way you judge now!

Though when I first read this I was reminded of Round LIX and how you did there. There are similarities between the two systems and it could work. At least with Round LIX the possibility existed for more than one entry to have the best score. There were multiple entries that had the top rating in each of the categories.

Let me put it this way. If there are say three entries this round that really pique your interest with Originality, you should give all three high marks and not try to figure out which one of those three were better than the others.

I know you have posted about the rising within the disputing process and I believe, like the others have said that your system as is now could create more.

[Zaq]

My first half-formed idea was to go into Soulbow with Zen Archery, thereby double-dipping on WIS to attack and damage. I was possibly going to use PsyWar to pick up some bonus feats and add even more WIS synergy. But it just required too many feats to really come together, and it peaked pretty early on (meaning that the latter part of the build just kind of sat there).

I had a couple ideas that weren't even half-formed (maybe quarter-formed): Spellthief, to let the bonuses against spells make Absorb Spell easier (that fell flat because Absorb Spell is based on your Spellthief level, which is basically impossible to advance outside of bloodlines, and I don't touch bloodlines). DFA, because No Thought adds your WIS to ALL damage rolls, not just ones that involve attacks (that fell flat because it had nothing going for it other than that). Shugenja, to cast spells on yourself and Maximize/Empower them (that fell flat because the stats don't line up, and Shugenja isn't powerful enough to carry the build with only 10 levels of spellcasting advancement). But as you can see, nothing came together enough for me to want to submit it.

I might—MIGHT—judge this round. I started a new job yesterday (woo!), so my time's more spoken for than it has been in a while, but it's only a part-time job, and there aren't THAT many entries. I'll see just how mentally taxing the job ends up being. No promises, though.

[samduke]

I had also considered a soulbow option but with the things laid out as possibly deductions I did not see a way for the build to score well.

[Venger]

I would advise against this. This system creates a flat disparity between entries regardless of actual skill. If a single entry outshines a mediocre rest, this entry is only a tad above, enough to be displaced by a dispute. If a single entry is illegal, not done right, or simply much worse than the one above it is only a tad below, enough to shift up from a dispute.

This system will make it much harder on you, because it means you cannot judge entries individually. In order to assign any score you have to read and fully asses all entries. In a round like dragon disciple where we have 20 entries, deciding which fraction of a point each gradation gets will be intensely annoying as well. Also, the more entries, the closer everyone gets, and the greater incentive to dispute.

I love your current system of judging because it lets us know exactly what you are looking for, objectively. If we must compete subjectively with everyone else for your attention, it will be impossible to properly build to expectations.

I understand your pain with the rising number of disputes, and it worries me as well, but the chefs are a contentious and bitter lot, and they will dispute regardless of system. That being said, if disputing is your largest concern, I do not see this helping. It might actually be time to enforce some rules about the dispute process.

good points all.

I'd be open to hearing some rules re: disputes. not disputing if you're not in the running for a medal would really cut down on wait time.

[A_S]

Scoring update: 3/6 complete. Should have them finished (and ready for disputes, wheeeeeee) tonight or tomorrow.

[A_S]

Judgings! Let the disputes commence.

-----

Total Score: 8.25

Originality: 1.75

Neither Human (Phoenix) nor the various flavors of Samurai are at all unexpected (-.25).
I don't see any unexpected tricks or synergies here at all...everything the build does seems like bog-standard melee fare, mixed up only as much as it has to be by including the Shiba Protector levels (-1).
The build is not overly reliant on known cheese (or, indeed, any cheese). (0)

Power: 1

The build seems extremely low-power, even for non-casting melee. You appear to be intended to fight with two weapons in melee combat...but only invest as far as Two-Weapon Fighting. You take Power Attack...which is terrible with TWF. You take Combat Reflexes...but you don't appear to fight with a reach weapon or have Improved Trip etc. to take advantage of it. You take Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery...but you have no way beyond normal WBL-expenditure to get yourself a cool mount, and no investment at all into archery. I understand these are mostly prerequisites, but they're not worth what you're buying with them. Your low Str, Dex, and Con scores will hurt your effectiveness in combat. Overall, your build seems unfocused, and like it won't be good at anything it tries. (-1)
The build is not overly reliant on any particular resources to do what it does (0).
I don't see anything the build can do other than hit stuff (poorly). You've invested in ranks in Intimidate, but you have no feat or class feature support for demoralize shenanigans. Overall, I don't see any way for the character to contribute to the party when its main schtick (hitting stuff) isn't appropriate. (-1)
No rundown on what your character is actually supposed to do. No penalty, but maybe this would have helped me see something I missed in the previous items! (0)

Elegance: 3.75

Everything fits in appropriately, though there's nothing that makes me go "woah, it's really cool that you got that to line up in time." You don't have any useless feats hanging around for many levels before you can use them (+.5).
The build qualifies for everything it takes (0).
The build does not rely on any questionable rules interpretations (0).
Well, he doesn't really have much fluff, but what little there is ("he's a samurai") lines up with the crunch ("he's a samurai"). (+.25)
There are no cross-setting issues (0).
The fluff is minimal, and the presentation is absolutely bare-bones. Could have used some more explanatory text, but no penalty (0).

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1.75

The build takes all 10 levels of the SI (0).
I see no use of the SI's class features besides "I have them." Nothing else in the build seems particularly better because you're a Shiba Protector. Even the Wis SAD goes unused because you don't invest in Wis. (-1)
All of the SI's requirements are completely ignored; you don't take anything that requires any of the feats besides the SI, and you don't do anything with knowledge (religion). I suppose you use your BAB to hit things... (-.25)



Total Score: 16.25

Originality: 4

Human (Phoenix) is expected, but Binder is a breath of fresh air! (+.5 for totally unexpected class)
Empower/Maximize your Shugenja buddy's hostile spells with Aid Shugenja, retarget them to enemies with Insane Defiance to give them a save penalty, and heal the Wis damage with Naberius? I love it! (+.5)
The build is not overly reliant on known cheese; the only thing that might qualify is the demoralize optimization, and that's far from your only trick. (0)

Power: 4.5

The build seems solidly capable at what it does. Getting to double-count your fairly high Wis modifier, along with your fancy Binder tricks and occasional Haste, will make you a competent melee combatant. Your spell-boosting combo will make you every Shugenja's best friend. With maxed Intimidate, Imperious Command, and Never Outnumbered, your demoralize is worth worrying about. Your Binder levels give you access to plenty of other strong abilities. All that said, it's hard to ignore what you're giving up in the 10 levels of Binder you're not taking. Overall, the build seems fairly strong for a melee-and-fear-focused Binder, though not overwhelmingly so, and it has some neat extra tricks. (+.5)
The build is not overly reliant on any particular resources to do what it does. The only thing it desperately wants is Fearsome armor, and demoralize isn't central enough to the build to merit a penalty for reliance on it. (0)
Between melee power, assisting a Shugenja's spellcasting, demoralize shenanigans, strong diplomacy with Naberius and maxed social skills, summons from Zceryll, and the rest of Binder's bag of tricks, it's hard to imagine a situation where this character couldn't contribute. Impressive! (+1)

Elegance: 4

The build lines up quite nicely, especially early on; nice to see Never Outnumbered grabbed as soon as possible and then Insane Defiance on your level 6 feat, the first level you meet the Will save prerequisite. It feels like the character's main tricks come online impressively early. (+.75)
You don't qualify for Open Lesser Chakra out of the box, due to missing the Con prerequisite by 1. If you're intending to qualify for this via items or buffs, you gotta tell me about it! Small penalty because it's such a minor fix, via either items or stat rearrangement (-.25)
The build does not rely on any questionable rules interpretations (0).
The whole, "new, foreign magics unexpectedly synergize with local magical traditions" fluff lines right up with your Binder crunch (+.5).
There are no cross-setting issues (0).
The fluff and presentation are brief and pretty standard (0).

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.75

The build takes all 10 levels of the SI (0).
The Aid Shugenja + Insane Defiance + Naberius combo is awesome. The other features are used more prosaically, but well enough, with the Haste and Wis SAD leveraged for melee combat, and the passive defenses being...passive defenses. (+1)
All of the SI's requirements are ignored, aside from using your BAB in melee (-.25)



Total Score: 14.5

Originality: 3.25

Human (Phoenix) is expected. Samurai and Iaijutsu Master are also pretty standard fare, but Crusader is something a little different, and I didn't expect Devoted Defender (though apparently I should have). (0)
Your various ways of deflecting attacks away from your Shugenja and using them to trigger AoO's are a combination I haven't specifically seen before (+.25).
The build is not overly reliant on known cheese (0).

Power: 3

The build seems quite good at its "make sure nobody hits my Shugenja, and then hit them when they try and hit me instead" schtick. However, with all your ways to trigger AoO's, I would have loved to see more resources invested in making them impactful. You trigger AoO's when somebody attacks your Shugenja, then you make them attack you and miss due to your high AC, triggering another AoO. So where's your Combat Reflexes?! Still, doesn't detract from the fact that the build does its job quite well. (+.5)
The build is not overly reliant on any particular resources to do what it does (0).
The build looks like it struggles to contribute when its main schtick (protecting its Shugenja) isn't required. You have some high social skills (Diplomacy and Sense Motive), but no class feature support for them, and not much to do in combat besides stand next to your Shugenja and pummel anything that tries to touch her. (-.5)

Elegance: 4

Everything fits in appropriately, if unremarkably. No useless or dangling feats/features for too long. (+.5)
The build qualifies for everything it takes (0).
The build does not rely on any questionable rules interpretations (0).
The build's fluff as a bodyguard for a Shugenja lines right up with what it does (protect Shugenja). (+.5)
There are no cross-setting issues (0).
The fluff and presentation are brief and pretty standard (0).

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.25

The build takes all 10 levels of the SI (0).
Aid Shugenja synergizes with your bodyguard features for obvious reasons (the build is designed to protect a Shugenja). Your high Wis makes good use of No Thought and One with All and Nothing. Overall, the class features are mostly well-used. (+.75)
The prerequisites are largely used for other key facets of the build: Alertness for Devoted Defender, Combat Expertise for feats that are key to the build's tricks, BAB for fighting and trading into Combat Expertise to force misses (and the AoO's that go with them). Only Iron Will and knowledge (religion) are largely ignored. (+.5)



Total Score: 8.75

Originality: 2.5

Human (Phoenix) is expected, but the classes are something a bit different (0).
I don't see a lot here that surprises me. Hexblade is unexpected, but I don't see that you're really doing anything with its class features (no Improved Familiar, no Dark Companion to help with your Shugenja's save DC's, not enough spellcasting to matter). You get Harm's Way out of Devoted Defender, but don't invest much in taking advantage of the attacks you force against yourself. (-.5)
The build is not overly reliant on known cheese (0).

Power: 2

The build's dedication to Wis synergy is nice, and effective for buffing up your melee presence. The rest of your build doesn't seem like it fits together too well, though...much of your build (e.g., most of your Swordsage maneuvers) seems designed for highly mobile combat, while Devoted Defender and many of your Shiba Protector features want you to stay near Fletcher. Overall, pretty average for a ToB-dipping melee build. (0)
The build is not overly reliant on any particular resources to do what it does (0).
The build doesn't seem to do much of anything other than hit stuff. No social skills, no spellcasting, no UMD, no scouting abilities, nothing besides Aid Shugenja to make your party's abilities more effective. If a problem can't be solved with a falchion, you don't seem to have any way to solve it. (-1)

Elegance: 3.25

Most things fit in appropriately, if unremarkably. Major exception is that, given your investment in Iaijutsu Focus, I would have liked to see Quick Draw much earlier in the build. No useless or dangling feats/features for too long. (+.25)
You qualify for almost everything. See below. (0)
A number of things don't work the way you say they do in your build write-up. For instance, you don't get your Iaijutsu Focus damage on multiple attacks unless you have a way to draw weapons between attacks (e.g., Gnomish Quickrazors). Mettle doesn't allow you to ignore partial effects on successful Reflex saves. One with All or Nothing probably doesn't let you replace the Hexblade's Cha-to-saves class feature with Wis; it just lets you replace the roll's normal ability bonus (Dex, Con, or Wis, depending on the save). And replacing Dex with Wis for Combat Reflexes would definitely be a pure house-rule. Overall, minor penalty, since none of this stuff is required for your build's central tactics to work. (-.25)
Your fluff is minimal, but you've at least worked the "protector" theme from your intro into the build (+.25).
There are no cross-setting issues (0).
The fluff is minimal, and the presentation is pretty standard. I'd recommend a prettier table next time; no penalty for that, though. (0)

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1

Man, this is rough. Shiba Protector requires ranks in knowledge (religion), and you've taken your ranks in knowledge (nature) instead. I hate to slam you for such a small mistake, but I gotta stick to my rubric to be fair, and you don't qualify for the SI. Automatic score of 1.



Total Score: 13.5

Originality: 3.5

Nice to see something other than vanilla Human, complete with appropriate explanation of why Azurin's fluff isn't incompatible with being a member of the Phoenix clan. Classes are nothing shocking, but at least not the bog-standard expected entry. (+.25)
Another build that does a nice job of building around Devoted Defender's bodyguard features in a way I hadn't seen too much of before this competition (+.25).
The build is not overly reliant on known cheese (0).
Power: 2.25

This build has the opposite problem of Shiba Daisuke; it picks up Combat Reflexes to take advantage of any AoO's it gets, but it's missing ways to trigger them. Crusaders are even really good at that; I would have liked to see something like Thicket of Blades picked up to get more AoO's in on anybody who tried to move in on your Shugenja. Still, it seems like a pretty competent ToB-based melee build. (+.5)
Your use of Soulspark Familiar to qualify for Shiba Protector is a problem, because Soulspark Familiars can very easily be killed. Losing all 10 levels worth of the SI's class features if your tiny, extremely vulnerable familiar ever dies is a bit of a problem. (-.5)
As with some of the other builds, this dude lacks much in the way of things to do if he can't hit stuff. The Incarnate dip helps a bit with that, but at only 2 levels and no investment in UMD to go with it, it's not much to be going on. 8 ranks in Diplomacy with a Cha penalty certainly isn't getting you anywhere socially. (-.75)
Elegance: 4.25

Everything fits in appropriately, if unremarkably. No useless or dangling feats/features for too long. (+.5)
The build qualifies for everything it takes (0).
The build does not rely on any questionable rules interpretations (0).
Your bodyguard fluff matches your bodyguard crunch (+.5).
There are no cross-setting issues (0).
I thought your story was really quite cute! (+.25)
Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5

The build takes all 10 levels of the SI (0).
I like the synergy of Aid Shugenja with Spellcaster Support, even if the feat is a little underwhelming. Devoted Defender's bodyguard stuff obviously goes well with beefing up a Shugenja's spellcasting, as already discussed. And you make good use of Wis synergy for your melee attacks. Overall, good use of the SI's class features. (+.75)
All of the SI's requirements are ignored, aside from using your BAB in melee (-.25)

Total Score: 9.5

Originality: 2.25

Human (Phoenix), three kinds of Samurai, and Fighter? *yawn* (-.25)
Not a lot going on here I haven't seen before. You hit things with katanas. The Oversized TWF + Exotic Weapon Master + Power Attack combo is at least somewhat interesting. (-.5)
The build is not overly reliant on known cheese (0).
Power: 1.25
This seems like a fairly low-power melee build. The investment you've made into beefing up your two-handed Power Attack helps that be less of an anti-combo than it usually is. Unfortunately, it doesn't really come online until level 20, and you're stuck in unfocused-melee-land for the rest of the build. (-.75)
The build is not overly reliant on any particular resources to do what it does (0).
Another melee build that doesn't do anything besides hit stuff (-1).
Elegance: 3.75
Everything fits in appropriately, if unremarkably. No useless or dangling feats/features for too long. (+.5)
The build qualifies for everything it takes (0).
As you acknowledge, the Power Attack combo is slightly questionable, due to the wording of Uncanny Blow. (-.25)
Seems like a lot of bodyguard fluff for not a lot of bodyguard abilities, but...I guess hitting your charge's enemies is a good way to protect them. Good enough. (+.25)
There are no cross-setting issues (0).
I quite liked the story, consise though it was (+.25).
Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.25

The build takes all 10 levels of the SI (0).
There's not a lot going on in terms of using the class features. Nothing in the build particularly works well with having a Shugenja around. The passive defenses are just passive defenses. You do at least invest in Wis to make use of No Thought and One With All And Nothing. (-.5)
All of the SI's requirements are ignored, aside from using your BAB in melee (-.25)
-----

Edits: Shiba Sanjuu's UotSI score changed due to my arithmetic error; -.5 in UotSI.
Builds with Human (Phoenix) updated to remove penalty for expected race; everybody but Iron Bear gets +.25 in Originality.

[Venger]

excellent and speedy judging, A_S. no disputes from me right now.

[The Viscount]

Wonderful! Fast, thorough, and easy to understand.

[Venger]

Wonderful! Fast, thorough, and easy to understand.
wholeheartedly agree. I strongly encourage you to judge more often if this is what we're going to get.

[dysprosium]

Thanks for judging A_S! You definitely should judge more often considering how well you did.

[Heliomance]

Penalising for being Human (Phoenix) strikes me as a little unfair, given that it's a prereq, and we had that discussion about how any human subraces would need to be extremely well justified.

[OMG PONIES]

Anyone who saw this pop up in their subscribed threads and eagerly clicked looking for scores...check back later :smallredface:. Sorry, this is the "PONIES has an abstract discussion about judging methods & disputes" portion of our program.


Very tempting, with just six entries... sounds a little similar to Kuulv's "instant runoff" experiment in IC: LIX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667). I tried to restrict myself to whole numbers in an attempt to speed things up for Dungeon Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376810), but wound up with too many ties and had to resort to half-points. Without half-points, you'll want to put some thought into tie-breakers.

Essentially, yes...but a more quantifiable version. Good insight about the difficulty caused by full points only.


I urge you as strongly asi can not to do this. You yourself anticipate the issues will cause, so already that's a sign.

Ah yes, but just because trying something new has risks doesn't always mean that risky thing shouldn't be done. :smallwink:


As a teacher , it is unconscionable to award different grades to two or more people who have done the same quality of work.

I wish someone had told my teachers this back in the day :smalltongue:.


What you're suggesting is only assigning a certain number of As for arbitrary reasons rather than the actual quality of work.

Note quite; what I'm suggesting is only assigning a certain number of As to those who exemplify mastery of a given category. Bs for those who demonstrate aptitude, Cs for those who represent competency, Ds for those who represent incompetent familiarity, and Fs for those who represent complete ignorance. Es don't exist because IIRC they were only created so students wouldn't feel so rubbish about getting Fs...is that right or is it an urban legend?


This Will screw over chefs in larger rounds even more Since you are implying the middle Will be the only one to grow.

Hmm, didn't quite consider this implication...but perhaps that's because the perfectionist in me has always looked to improve, even if I received a 100% grade.


Having set grades also means if everyone does well or poorly your judging will not accurately reflect this.

Fair point. Should all builds be unoriginal, for instance, a 5 would represent nothing more than "the best bad option," to quote Argo. Not Fargo--they're different. :smalltongue:


I understand your desire to avoid having to justify your judging at length by having a system that has no room for argument in It but this is not the way. If you don't want to explain yourself toa dissatisfied chef you have to. It doesn't Mean you need to change your rubric

Wait, what? :smalleek: I always took it that judging carried with it a commitment to respond to disputes. If I can just give them the cold shoulder, that changes everything. Nah, I love having to justify my judging at length (mostly because I have that problem where I like to listen to myself talk type). I realize that every system has room for argument; the reason I wanted to move to stack ranking is because that's how contestants have been responding to my scores in the past. If I said, "Your build isn't too powerful for the following reasons," chefs have often come back with "out of this round, here's why my build is more powerful than the others." Since that seemed to be the lingua franca, I figured judging comparatively instead of in a vacuum might be a welcome change.


I'm... really not a fan of grading on a curve, in general. I'm significantly dubious about the idea.

Duly noted. I can't expect to drop a new scoring method on everyone without Chairwoman approval. I'll stick to my individual scoring method for now. For kicks & giggles, I'll also take a look at what the scores would have been if I had stack ranked. Should any interesting findings emerge, I'll share them with the class.


I would advise against this. This system creates a flat disparity between entries regardless of actual skill. If a single entry outshines a mediocre rest, this entry is only a tad above, enough to be displaced by a dispute. If a single entry is illegal, not done right, or simply much worse than the one above it is only a tad below, enough to shift up from a dispute.

This is reminiscent of the group's discussions around whether illegal builds should still be scored at all a few rounds back. In my proposed system, there is a maximum margin of 16 between the worst conceivable build and the best. The worst conceivable build would receive a 1 in all categories, while the best receives a 5. However, I understand what you're saying; in practice, most scores would fall closer to the middle of the spectrum and thus the spread between builds might be closer. Also, if we look only at the level of an individual category...if 5/6 builds had completely rubbish Power, all of them would not receive 1s. Thus, what may have been the difference b/w a 1 in 2nd place and a 5 in 1st place would have the gap closed to a 4 in 2nd place and a 5 in 1st place. Interesting.


This system will make it much harder on you, because it means you cannot judge entries individually. In order to assign any score you have to read and fully asses all entries. In a round like dragon disciple where we have 20 entries, deciding which fraction of a point each gradation gets will be intensely annoying as well. Also, the more entries, the closer everyone gets, and the greater incentive to dispute.

The problem is that I already read and fully assess all entries before assigning scores. This is mostly a matter of consistency; if I'm calling a feat tree "unique" in Build 2, I want to make sure I'm calling the same feat tree unique in Build 13 (or that it's not unique in either). You make an astute point about how more entries would complicate this method and make the scores "too close for comfort," though.


I love your current system of judging because it lets us know exactly what you are looking for, objectively. If we must compete subjectively with everyone else for your attention, it will be impossible to properly build to expectations.

I have one expectation: build something you're proud of. Everything else is just infrastructure. Build for your own approval, not mine. If I find out anyone is building specifically to cater to my expectations, I'll give you 0s across the board :smalltongue:. Heck, I'm still trying to use Ember Flamereader in a game, and she got a score of "NaN."


I understand your pain with the rising number of disputes, and it worries me as well, but the chefs are a contentious and bitter lot, and they will dispute regardless of system. That being said, if disputing is your largest concern, I do not see this helping. It might actually be time to enforce some rules about the dispute process.

A drum I have been beating for how many rounds now? :smalltongue: My problem is not the rising number of disputes, but the content of them. If the number was rising but every dispute pointed out clearly how a judge fudged the math or misread the rules, I'd be all for it.


I hope you will be able to. Your judging comments are greatly appreciated.

Glad someone thinks so :smalltongue:.


Though when I first read this I was reminded of Round LIX and how you did there. There are similarities between the two systems and it could work. At least with Round LIX the possibility existed for more than one entry to have the best score. There were multiple entries that had the top rating in each of the categories.

Let me put it this way. If there are say three entries this round that really pique your interest with Originality, you should give all three high marks and not try to figure out which one of those three were better than the others.

So in a race, if the fast competitor completes in 6:00, 2nd finishes in 6:01, 3rd finishes in 6:02, 4th crosses the line at 10:34, 5th is done in 11:02, and 6th brings up the rear at 12:12, should I give gold medals to our first three finishers? :smallconfused: Not trying to sound difficult; just trying to play devil's advocate to help us dig into the idea.


I know you have posted about the rising within the disputing process and I believe, like the others have said that your system as is now could create more

I would posit that the rising trend in disputes has more to do with the competitive spirit of our chefs than the particular system any judge or judges use to evaluate them :smallbiggrin:. However, if anyone's curious here's the most recent data around our tendency to dispute:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2dqv9rp.png


My first half-formed idea was to go into Soulbow with Zen Archery, thereby double-dipping on WIS to attack and damage. I was possibly going to use PsyWar to pick up some bonus feats and add even more WIS synergy. But it just required too many feats to really come together, and it peaked pretty early on (meaning that the latter part of the build just kind of sat there).

Soulbow with Zen Archery sounds like a really unique approach! I also didn't even think of PsyWar for picking up bonus feats with a WIS focus...shame on me! :smallfurious:


I had a couple ideas that weren't even half-formed (maybe quarter-formed): Spellthief, to let the bonuses against spells make Absorb Spell easier (that fell flat because Absorb Spell is based on your Spellthief level, which is basically impossible to advance outside of bloodlines, and I don't touch bloodlines).

My thoughts every single time I want to use Spellthief. Why did they give it such interesting class features with so little support?


I might—MIGHT—judge this round.

Propose a new method of judging; folks seem to enjoy that. :smalltongue:


I started a new job yesterday (woo!), so my time's more spoken for than it has been in a while, but it's only a part-time job, and there aren't THAT many entries. I'll see just how mentally taxing the job ends up being. No promises, though.

Congrats! :smallcool:


I'd be open to hearing some rules re: disputes. not disputing if you're not in the running for a medal would really cut down on wait time.

Indeed, but what defines "in the running for a medal?" For example, if I'm in last place but I believe the judge was wrong on every single salient point of my build, a change in score of that magnitude could send me on a rocket ride to Gold. WRT Dispute Rules, they were proposed a few times in past competitions when Ozymandias & Private Prinny were chairs:

Regarding any and all disputes:

If you feel the need to point out something, there are exactly 2 things that I will pay attention to for the judges scores to be altered. Neither is debatable, therefore they have a place here.

1. If a judge has made a rules error that significantly affects their score, cite the correct passage i.e. Shneeky's judging of Braham or Nefarious Tate. The level of Duskblade spells, or the CL of a Nar Demonbinder (p.26 of UE) is an undisputable fact, and a clear mistake that needs to be corrected. If a contestant fears for their anonymity, they can feel free to PM me with these concerns. Always cite the book, page, and possibly passage.

2. If a judge marks down a build explicitly for a certain factor, and ignores that factor in a different build, bring it up. The judges are reasonable people, only looking to be fair. Only*explicit deductions*are eligible for this, since something that only deserves a passing mention may not be a large enough part of their scoring process.

The above represent the written rules regarding the entry, or a judge's consistency in their scoring. Any other disputes, such as the viability of a certain technique or exactly how original an entry is, will be nipped in the bud. They gum up the thread, accomplish little to nothing, and are otherwise unacceptable.

In deciding which disputes to present, I had to put aside quite a few this round. For brief reference: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9418299&postcount=307

Not Even a Dispute

Math Errors

Valid Disputes

Rules Error (If I can resolve it definitively one way or another, I will. These will be handled immediately rather than with other disputes)
You believe that the judge overlooked a specific element of your build
You believe that the judge misunderstood the purpose, function, or scope of a specific element of your build
There is an element in the judge's posted criteria (if they have one) that you believe you qualify for but which was not applied
Another entry was scored differently for the*exact*same thing. Note the word exact. If there is a difference (even if you don't feel it was substantive), I'm not going to present it. A good example would be if everyone else were scored down 1 point for using Stoneblessed and you were scored down 1.5.

Not a Valid Dispute

Points Awarded or Deducted for elements not listed in a Judge's posted criteria
Disagreements over the Judge's scoring methodology or judgment



Judgings! Let the disputes commence.

Sweet, I've updated the scoring archive (and thanks for the sig link, by the way). One point of arithmetic: Shiba Sanjuu's UoSI score is listed as 2.75, but tallying the adjustments from your bullet points actually brings me to 2.25. Did I do my math wrong, or should Sanjuu's UoSI stay at 2.75 due to judge's math error? :smallwink:

Standings After One Judge (Before Disputes)
EntryPlaceTotalAverage
Fang XueGold164
Shiba DaisukeSilver14.253.5625
Iron BearBronze13.53.375
Shiba SanjuuFourth9.752.4375
Fletcher's FlameFifth8.52.125
Sam UraiSixth82

[Venger]

Penalising for being Human (Phoenix) strikes me as a little unfair, given that it's a prereq, and we had that discussion about how any human subraces would need to be extremely well justified.

I agree it's a bad rule, but at least he applied it consistently and punished all the humans and rewarded the nonhuman. it reminds me of when ponies slammed everyone in shadowdancer who didn't take darkstalker and rewarded the 2 builds who did.


Anyone who saw this pop up in their subscribed threads and eagerly clicked looking for scores...check back later :smallredface:. Sorry, this is the "PONIES has an abstract discussion about judging methods & disputes" portion of our program.

why did you ask for feedback if you're just going to ignore everything everybody said? :smalltongue:


Ah yes, but just because trying something new has risks doesn't always mean that risky thing shouldn't be done. :smallwink:
no one said "don't do this because it's risky" we said "don't do this because it's a bad way to judge"


I wish someone had told my teachers this back in the day :smalltongue:.
well here's your chance to be better than them and not worse



Note quite; what I'm suggesting is only assigning a certain number of As to those who exemplify mastery of a given category. Bs for those who demonstrate aptitude, Cs for those who represent competency, Ds for those who represent incompetent familiarity, and Fs for those who represent complete ignorance.
no. since the grades are preset, they have nothing to do with quality. if you have two A-level builds, you will be purposely not rewarding one of them because of Reasons, rather than actual quality of the build. what you're describing is how your existing, good judging style functions.



Hmm, didn't quite consider this implication...but perhaps that's because the perfectionist in me has always looked to improve, even if I received a 100% grade.
are you one of those people who will give someone a 99 on a paper and then when they ask what's wrong say "there's no such thing as a perfect paper" ?


Fair point. Should all builds be unoriginal, for instance, a 5 would represent nothing more than "the best bad option," to quote Argo. Not Fargo--they're different. :smalltongue:
yes, which is why you shouldn't do this.



Wait, what? :smalleek: I always took it that judging carried with it a commitment to respond to disputes. If I can just give them the cold shoulder, that changes everything. Nah, I love having to justify my judging at length (mostly because I have that problem where I like to listen to myself talk type). I realize that every system has room for argument; the reason I wanted to move to stack ranking is because that's how contestants have been responding to my scores in the past. If I said, "Your build isn't too powerful for the following reasons," chefs have often come back with "out of this round, here's why my build is more powerful than the others." Since that seemed to be the lingua franca, I figured judging comparatively instead of in a vacuum might be a welcome change.

not really.

you complained last round about having to justify yourself to vacuous disputes, so if you don't feel like it, you shouldn't have to. that's your real problem with judging from what I see through your posts, not the way you score. if anything, you will have to fight a million times more disputes with this metric because of how bad it is, it universal disapproval, and the fact that it won't let you accurately reflect your opinions, much less the objective quality of the dishes.

if chefs keep complaining, but have no substance to their disputes, you can ignore them and say "no change." it's not a reason to wreck your criteria to spite them.



Duly noted. I can't expect to drop a new scoring method on everyone without Chairwoman approval. I'll stick to my individual scoring method for now. For kicks & giggles, I'll also take a look at what the scores would have been if I had stack ranked. Should any interesting findings emerge, I'll share them with the class.
thank god. glad that's settled. wish you'd lead with this before I had a heart attack. :smalltongue:


This is reminiscent of the group's discussions around whether illegal builds should still be scored at all a few rounds back. In my proposed system, there is a maximum margin of 16 between the worst conceivable build and the best. The worst conceivable build would receive a 1 in all categories, while the best receives a 5. However, I understand what you're saying; in practice, most scores would fall closer to the middle of the spectrum and thus the spread between builds might be closer. Also, if we look only at the level of an individual category...if 5/6 builds had completely rubbish Power, all of them would not receive 1s. Thus, what may have been the difference b/w a 1 in 2nd place and a 5 in 1st place would have the gap closed to a 4 in 2nd place and a 5 in 1st place. Interesting.
illegal builds should not be scored at all.

being judged is a privilege, not a right. you earn this privilege by following the rules. if you spit in the faces of the other chefs by giving yourself free LA, or gestalting or whatever nonsense, you forfeit that privilege. to do otherwise is disrespectful to chefs who do things the right way.

having a pre-set difference of any number between best and worst is wrong. dishes can sometimes exceed it. illegal dishes do not even deserve a score at all. I know some judges disagree with this, but even they will at least award zeroes in one or more categories. refusing to do this will sometime place illegal ingredients ahead of real ones, which is unconscionable.

if 5/6 builds are rubbish in power and have a 1, then they all deserve a 1. giving one of them a 5 makes no sense. I know that it stems from wanting to make the scores so far apart from each other that no one will bother to dispute you, but again, this is not the way to solve that problem.


The problem is that I already read and fully assess all entries before assigning scores. This is mostly a matter of consistency; if I'm calling a feat tree "unique" in Build 2, I want to make sure I'm calling the same feat tree unique in Build 13 (or that it's not unique in either). You make an astute point about how more entries would complicate this method and make the scores "too close for comfort," though.
no one's saying you don't read. we're saying that the point of judging is to evaluate based on a dish's own merits, not how it stands up to others. yes, you've always been good about consistency, and this new system would render that impossible.


I have one expectation: build something you're proud of. Everything else is just infrastructure. Build for your own approval, not mine. If I find out anyone is building specifically to cater to my expectations, I'll give you 0s across the board :smalltongue:. Heck, I'm still trying to use Ember Flamereader in a game, and she got a score of "NaN."
people have been doomsaying about "building to the judges" since day 1, but I really don't think it's ever gonna happen. even though we've had you and many others as a judge before, it's not really possible to cook to pander to one judge or the other. besides, since most rounds have more than one judge, it'll cancel out anyway since judges often have mutually exclusive criteria (e.g. one will penalize for human, one will penalize for nonhuman) so it's not like it matters.


A drum I have been beating for how many rounds now? :smalltongue: My problem is not the rising number of disputes, but the content of them. If the number was rising but every dispute pointed out clearly how a judge fudged the math or misread the rules, I'd be all for it.
right, I agree with you, as discussed I think in the last thread.


Glad someone thinks so :smalltongue:.
he just wants you to give him your one existing 5



So in a race, if the fast competitor completes in 6:00, 2nd finishes in 6:01, 3rd finishes in 6:02, 4th crosses the line at 10:34, 5th is done in 11:02, and 6th brings up the rear at 12:12, should I give gold medals to our first three finishers? :smallconfused: Not trying to sound difficult; just trying to play devil's advocate to help us dig into the idea.
that's a false analogy and you know it. dishes are, to a certain degree, subjective. it's not like we all meet some number of objective standard like running a race. if that were the case, we wouldn't need judges at all.


Indeed, but what defines "in the running for a medal?" For example, if I'm in last place but I believe the judge was wrong on every single salient point of my build, a change in score of that magnitude could send me on a rocket ride to Gold. WRT Dispute Rules, they were proposed a few times in past competitions when Ozymandias & Private Prinny were chairs:

being one point away.

that example will never make a difference. if you're in last, you're probably trailing by five or six points. a judge is never going to give you that many. disputes have historically given at most .75-1.25 points back. I tink it'd be extremely generous to say "in the running" meaning "lagging 1.25 or less behind bronze." and otherwise not to waste everyone's time.

[Amphetryon]

no one's saying you don't read. we're saying that the point of judging is to evaluate based on a dish's own merits, not how it stands up to others. yes, you've always been good about consistency, and this new system would render that impossible.
Point of order:

Several judges and contestants have historically disagreed with this stance, and have judged builds against the other ones presented, rather than against a hypothetical ideal. The argument goes that this method prevents contestants from having to compete against a build the judge envisioned but nobody presented. There have been rounds in the past where nobody scored higher than something like 3.5 in a category simply because the judge doing that scoring saw a particular trick nobody used (perhaps because of The Vizzini Effect).

[dysprosium]

A physically timed race has a clear winner. It is the person who comes first across the finish line. There is no subjectivity involved. The person who crossed the finish line first doesn't lose because the person who crossed last looked better while running.

Competitions like these don't have that kind of luxury. Yes there is the infrastructure that you mentioned but it really is only part of the whole. More than likely no two builds are going to be the same and that is where the subjectivity comes in.

All I was saying, which was echoed by others, was that awarding points 5/4/3/2/1 won't solve the problem when say for example, four of the six builds really lack any power at all. One or two of those builds that lacks power are going to get a higher score than it "should."

Similarly, let's say three builds are all mechanically sound, qualify for every feat, skill trick, prestige class, etc. None of these three rely on crazy RAW shenanigans to function and any of them can be inserted at any table with no difficulty. Only one of them is going to get the 5. One is going to get a 4 and another is going to get a 3 (which will rank him the same as an entry with some questionable RAW or not qualifying for things or what have you).

These things are making more sense in my head. I hope I am conveying what I'm trying to say clearly.

[Venger]

A physically timed race has a clear winner. It is the person who comes first across the finish line. There is no subjectivity involved. The person who crossed the finish line first doesn't lose because the person who crossed last looked better while running.

Competitions like these don't have that kind of luxury. Yes there is the infrastructure that you mentioned but it really is only part of the whole. More than likely no two builds are going to be the same and that is where the subjectivity comes in.

All I was saying, which was echoed by others, was that awarding points 5/4/3/2/1 won't solve the problem when say for example, four of the six builds really lack any power at all. One or two of those builds that lacks power are going to get a higher score than it "should."

Similarly, let's say three builds are all mechanically sound, qualify for every feat, skill trick, prestige class, etc. None of these three rely on crazy RAW shenanigans to function and any of them can be inserted at any table with no difficulty. Only one of them is going to get the 5. One is going to get a 4 and another is going to get a 3 (which will rank him the same as an entry with some questionable RAW or not qualifying for things or what have you).

These things are making more sense in my head. I hope I am conveying what I'm trying to say clearly.

No you articulated yourself perfectly well. Your points are well made; you're being too hard on yourself

In that analogy, the problems you mentioned are evident. Since we are at the stage where we decide into tortured metaphors, to use ponies example it would be like if the runners all had the same time but you assigned them different places

[Darrin]

illegal builds should not be scored at all.


I vehemently disagree with this. There is existing guidance in the FAQ that explains what happens if a judge thinks a build is "illegal":



If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included.


In the interests of pedantry:

1) "Legal" is not a binary issue. Many groups or players have a wide variety of interpretations for how the rules should work. Even that warped yardstick of "RAW" is a messy, messy can of worms full of hyperbolic contortions and salacious recriminations.

2) Most contestants do not set out to deliberately waste the judge's time, and almost all qualification issues are honest mistakes or something the contestant misunderstood. If they made a good-faith effort to submit something, then I think it behooves the judge to do his best to inform them how the build can be improved. Refusing to judge teaches them nothing useful. [Except, of course, for me. If you see me doing something deliberately illegal, you can go ahead and give me zeros. =)]

3) I would like to reserve the right for contestants to "color outside the lines" because I believe it may result in more creative dishes or new optimization tricks that could inspire others to experiment with similar tricks. Entries that break the rules can still generate insightful discussion and a deeper understanding of why the rules work the way they do.

4) "But a FTQ could score higher than a legal build! That's unfair!" Poop happens. If a FTQ beats out your build, then there are probably some *really* good reasons why it did so.



being judged is a privilege, not a right. you earn this privilege by following the rules. if you spit in the faces of the other chefs by giving yourself free LA, or gestalting or whatever nonsense, you forfeit that privilege. to do otherwise is disrespectful to chefs who do things the right way.


You can't teach someone how to play the piano better by cutting off their fingers when they screw up.



that example will never make a difference. if you're in last, you're probably trailing by five or six points. a judge is never going to give you that many. disputes have historically given at most .75-1.25 points back. I tink it'd be extremely generous to say "in the running" meaning "lagging 1.25 or less behind bronze." and otherwise not to waste everyone's time.

We've seen large point swings before. A rules clarification could turn a 0 or 1 into a 3 or 4. The addition of a new judge can also jumble up the rankings quite a bit, and it's hard to know when another judge will post scores. I'm hesitant to restrict disputes to only those builds "in the running". In the last IC, Karl was absolutely dead last, and scored so poorly there was no hope I could argue him into "placing" territory. So I seriously debated with myself over keeping my mouth shut and letting it stand. But I eventually decided to send a dispute anyway. My reasoning:

1) The first issue was a math error, and I couldn't figure out how Ponies thought I'd spent 34 points on my stats. In all the restrictions I've seen for disputes, "math errors" is at the top of the list for things you can legitimately dispute.

2) The Soul Eater issue affected another build that was close to placing.

3) I post to the Iron Chef thread to argue about discuss things. Not arguing about discussing things, particularly a thing I had created, seemed counter-intuitive. (Or rather, I was feeling embarrassed and defensive about such a poor showing, and I hoped that a well-reasoned discourse would show that... I wasn't deliberately trying to waste people's time? I dunno, I'm a bit fuzzy on this one.)

When I dispute something, I try to restrict myself to a single dispute post. The dispute has to be a math error or a rules error. If the judge is expressing an opinion over the appropriateness of "cheese", then I leave that out of the post if at all possible. Judges are allowed to have opinions. That's the entire point of being a judge.

[Sian]

I would posit that the rising trend in disputes has more to do with the competitive spirit of our chefs than the particular system any judge or judges use to evaluate them :smallbiggrin:. However, if anyone's curious here's the most recent data around our tendency to dispute:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2dqv9rp.png

While it certainly rose sharply from around round ~35 to ~55, since then i'd say the spead seems to be to inconsistently spead to make call it a average raise since then, just a wider distribution sticking in all directions. If anything it looks like there might be a very slightly lower average dispute rate since about 60 although its hardly noticeable.

If you can post the raw numbers it might be interesting to look at a graph in which each point lists say 5 rounds with a reasonable overlap (starting at say 31-35, 33-37, 35-39 and so on up to present time), that might make it easier to see if there is any tendency

[Venger]

I vehemently disagree with this. There is existing guidance in the FAQ that explains what happens if a judge thinks a build is "illegal":



In the interests of pedantry:

1) "Legal" is not a binary issue. Many groups or players have a wide variety of interpretations for how the rules should work. Even that warped yardstick of "RAW" is a messy, messy can of worms full of hyperbolic contortions and salacious recriminations.

2) Most contestants do not set out to deliberately waste the judge's time, and almost all qualification issues are honest mistakes or something the contestant misunderstood. If they made a good-faith effort to submit something, then I think it behooves the judge to do his best to inform them how the build can be improved. Refusing to judge teaches them nothing useful. [Except, of course, for me. If you see me doing something deliberately illegal, you can go ahead and give me zeros. =)]

3) I would like to reserve the right for contestants to "color outside the lines" because I believe it may result in more creative dishes or new optimization tricks that could inspire others to experiment with similar tricks. Entries that break the rules can still generate insightful discussion and a deeper understanding of why the rules work the way they do.

4) "But a FTQ could score higher than a legal build! That's unfair!" Poop happens. If a FTQ beats out your build, then there are probably some *really* good reasons why it did so.



You can't teach someone how to play the piano better by cutting off their fingers when they screw up.



We've seen large point swings before. A rules clarification could turn a 0 or 1 into a 3 or 4. The addition of a new judge can also jumble up the rankings quite a bit, and it's hard to know when another judge will post scores. I'm hesitant to restrict disputes to only those builds "in the running". In the last IC, Karl was absolutely dead last, and scored so poorly there was no hope I could argue him into "placing" territory. So I seriously debated with myself over keeping my mouth shut and letting it stand. But I eventually decided to send a dispute anyway. My reasoning:

1) The first issue was a math error, and I couldn't figure out how Ponies thought I'd spent 34 points on my stats. In all the restrictions I've seen for disputes, "math errors" is at the top of the list for things you can legitimately dispute.

2) The Soul Eater issue affected another build that was close to placing.

3) I post to the Iron Chef thread to argue about discuss things. Not arguing about discussing things, particularly a thing I had created, seemed counter-intuitive. (Or rather, I was feeling embarrassed and defensive about such a poor showing, and I hoped that a well-reasoned discourse would show that... I wasn't deliberately trying to waste people's time? I dunno, I'm a bit fuzzy on this one.)
,
I agree with every one of your points. My apologies I should have been more clear. By illegali meant by iron chef rules as I said like using gestalt or spell points or something not by missing a skill rank to qualify for the Secret ingredient


I understand motivations for disputing last round and apologize if it seemed like I was insulting you that my intent. I can understand wanting to seta precedent witha ruling even if you get a medal

[A_S]

Thanks for the kind words on my judgings, folks.


Penalising for being Human (Phoenix) strikes me as a little unfair, given that it's a prereq, and we had that discussion about how any human subraces would need to be extremely well justified.
I scored them that way in order to be as consistent as possible with the rubric I posted ahead of time. That said, I'm not terribly invested in whether that penalty gets applied or not. Would you like me to change it? The net effect would be +.25 for every build besides Iron Bear.


One point of arithmetic: Shiba Sanjuu's UoSI score is listed as 2.75, but tallying the adjustments from your bullet points actually brings me to 2.25. Did I do my math wrong, or should Sanjuu's UoSI stay at 2.75 due to judge's math error? :smallwink:
This is my arithmetic error. I'm inclined to change it, since otherwise it seems unfair to the other contestants (they all got penalized if they didn't make good use of the SI's features, but Shiba Sanjuu effectively didn't if we let my error stand). Is there a standing policy on what to do in the case of a judge's clear mistake?

[Venger]

Thanks for the kind words on my judgings, folks.


I scored them that way in order to be as consistent as possible with the rubric I posted ahead of time. That said, I'm not terribly invested in whether that penalty gets applied or not. Would you like me to change it? The net effect would be +.25 for every build besides Iron Bear.


This is my arithmetic error. I'm inclined to change it, since otherwise it seems unfair to the other contestants (they all got penalized if they didn't make good use of the SI's features, but Shiba Sanjuu effectively didn't if we let my error stand). Is there a standing policy on what to do in the case of a judge's clear mistake?

Since you gave iron bear a bonus I'd suggest giving him the same positive adJustment.

Yes in the instance of a judge adding wrong we change it. He's just joking

[Darrin]

I scored them that way in order to be as consistent as possible with the rubric I posted ahead of time. That said, I'm not terribly invested in whether that penalty gets applied or not. Would you like me to change it? The net effect would be +.25 for every build besides Iron Bear.


I'm in favor of removing the penalties for the reason Heliomance stated. I'm not sure that matching the "setting fluff" should be the goal of an Iron Chef competition, but the discussion before the entries were posted was pretty blunt about encouraging people to adhere to the campaign setting material or warning them away from convoluted racial snowflakery. It doesn't change the existing standings, but the +.25 could become more important if additional judges weigh in.



This is my arithmetic error. I'm inclined to change it, since otherwise it seems unfair to the other contestants (they all got penalized if they didn't make good use of the SI's features, but Shiba Sanjuu effectively didn't if we let my error stand). Is there a standing policy on what to do in the case of a judge's clear mistake?

Standing policy is the judge just edits the post when the error gets pointed out. There's no need for a rigorous "math error" formal dispute process.

[A_S]

Since you gave iron bear a bonus I'd suggest giving him the same positive adJustment.
Erm, why? Iron Bear is already receiving the bonus (+.25) I thought should apply for an unexpected race. If I'm being told, "you shouldn't have penalized for using the expected race," shouldn't I just remove those penalties and leave bonuses alone? Iron Bear will still be getting more points out of his race than the others, just not by as much.

To my mind, increasing Iron Bear's bonus seems like it's not in the spirit of "following the Chairwoman's instructions," and more like "retroactively reassessing how much I think a bonus should be worth specifically so that the change the Chairwoman is asking me to make won't make any difference." Which seems not super fair to me.

Anyway...I'll wait on Heliomance's word on whether that was a Chairperson Instruction or just general commentary.

[Venger]

Erm, why? Iron Bear is already receiving the bonus (+.25) I thought should apply for an unexpected race. If I'm being told, "you shouldn't have penalized for using the expected race," shouldn't I just remove those penalties and leave bonuses alone? Iron Bear will still be getting more points out of his race than the others, just not by as much.

To my mind, increasing Iron Bear's bonus seems like it's not in the spirit of "following the Chairwoman's instructions," and more like "retroactively reassessing how much I think a bonus should be worth specifically so that the change the Chairwoman is asking me to make won't make any difference." Which seems not super fair to me.

Anyway...I'll wait on Heliomance's word on whether that was a Chairperson Instruction or just general commentary.

Oh sorry I misunderstood. Yeah removing the penalty sound like it makes the most sense. That way he still gets the bonus you gave him

[Heliomance]

Okay, can we all stop jumping down Ponies' throat now? He's sticking to the old metric, it's fine, we can stop that discussion now. It was getting quite heated, and i'd like this to stay a friendly place.

Ponies, I rather like Ozymandias' guidelines. Think I might adopt those.

A_S, consider it... pointed commentary. If you'd rather keep the penalty that's your prerogative as a judge, but I'd prefer it to be nixed. By all means though, keep Iron Bear's bonus.

I do actually have a couple of disputes that I'll post when I get on a computer - I'm posting from my phone atm,thus the lack of quotes.

[Heliomance]

Having read the disputes, I'm only going to post one of them, pending further discussion with the originator of the other.


I was all full of piss & vinegar to argue why my scores should be higher but... my most serious crime appears to be boring the judge. And I don't think I can argue against that. In fact, I think the only thing I can complain about is my "Use of the Secret Ingredient" is higher than it should be. Unless I was getting points from something else, 3 - 0.5 - 2.5 = 2.25.

[A_S]

A_S, consider it... pointed commentary. If you'd rather keep the penalty that's your prerogative as a judge, but I'd prefer it to be nixed. By all means though, keep Iron Bear's bonus.
If you'd prefer it changed, I'll change it. My only reason to want to keep it was a general "I ought to stick to what my rubric said about unexpected races" kinda thing, plus a general desire to be conservative about changing scores. But as you say, even just keeping just the bonus is still consistent with my rubric.

Either way, advice taken; I won't apply that kind of penalty if it comes up next time I judge. Editing judging post now.


I was all full of piss & vinegar to argue why my scores should be higher but... my most serious crime appears to be boring the judge. And I don't think I can argue against that. In fact, I think the only thing I can complain about is my "Use of the Secret Ingredient" is higher than it should be. Unless I was getting points from something else, 3 - 0.5 - 2.5 = 2.25.
Already pointed out by PONIES and fixed.

[Curmudgeon]

Progress report: I've completed 3/6 judgings. My writeups tend to be more verbose than others, so it'll be several days until I'm finished.

[OMG PONIES]

are you one of those people who will give someone a 99 on a paper and then when they ask what's wrong say "there's no such thing as a perfect paper"?

You've seen me judge before, right? :smallwink:


Okay, can we all stop jumping down Ponies' throat now? He's sticking to the old metric, it's fine, we can stop that discussion now. It was getting quite heated, and i'd like this to stay a friendly place.

Oh, I took it as friendly. Sorry I broke the thread, though.


Ponies, I rather like Ozymandias' guidelines. Think I might adopt those.

Blessings on your head. I anticipate it may just shift some of the existing conversations to the Chair instead of the judge, so I thank you in advance for adding a bit of rigor to dispute screening.

[Vaz]

Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.

On another note, judgelings should be in tinight, or tomorrow morning.

[A_S]

judgelings
That's me alright.

[OMG PONIES]

Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.

So you basically made this to be stolen for my signature, right? :smallwink: No really, I'm asking permission so as not to steal your words.

[Curmudgeon]

One of these turned out to be distressingly easy to score, so I finished a day earlier than expected.

Originality: 1
Your race and classes had nothing unique in this Iron Chef round, so you get nothing for the half of Originality based on distinguishing yourself from other contestants. You also matched a build suggested in the thread (as a joke), so there was nothing surprising in those classes. Your feats were straight out of the Player's Handbook, so nothing surprising there, either.

Power: 1.25
Aid Shugenja requires a Spellcraft check by the Shiba Protector (as specified by the Chairwoman here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19372186&postcount=21)), but you've never trained that skill so you're forbidden from using this class ability. You're a simple sword fighter who gets no benfit from No Thought. You don't have 5 ranks in Balance, a basic defensive need. You've got lots of Iaijutsu Focus skill, but nothing to create the flat-footed condition necessary for use of that skill. CW Samurai gives you Two-Weapon Fighting (which normally requires DEX 15) and the benefit of Quick Draw (fairly late, at level 19), so with the maximum possible BAB maybe you could get Iaijutsu Focus damage bonus on both katana and wakizashi. That slight chance of one good attack, perhaps aided by Shiba Protector One with Nothing, is about the best I can say for you in this category.

Let's say you spend the surprise round closing with an enemy (a big supposition considering you have no ranks in Spot or Listen and are likely to be surprised instead). To gain maximum benefit from Iaijutsu Focus you have to get quite lucky. If the enemy isn't surprised they'll get to attack you right after you close with them. If they are surprised, they might have superior initiative and get to make a full attack against you in the first regular round of combat. Then you can move away, hoping that your half speed Tumble lets you get to another enemy who's still flat-footed and you'll be able to make a single melee strike, after which that new enemy gets to make their own full attack against you. Only if the first enemy is both surprised and has worse initiative will they be flat-footed and enable you to get the Iaijutsu Focus damage bonus from both katana and wakizashi.

Shiba Protector sets a low bar for character Power. Unfortunately, you devoted so much of your resources simply to satisfying the entry requirements for a 1-level dip into Master Samurai that you didn't even measure up to that level of Power.

Elegance: 1.5

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below.
You failed to follow the above rule.

You appear to have confused the OA Samurai and CW Samurai skills. You failed to spend all your skill points at OA Samurai level 1, but you did illegally include 4 ranks in two cross-class skills (Knowledge: nobility and Tumble). You didn't make any effort to distinguish skill points spent from skill rank totals in the build table.

Your arithmetic for level 20 DEX was off.

Your OA Samurai class gives you a katana and a wakizashi. You don't list any required gear, so that's all your character has. Your Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery feats don't help you with no horse and no bow.

You didn't include Ancestral Daisho improvement on the OA Samurai's level 4 class features (Dragon # 318, page 34).

You didn't follow the "use it, link it" rule.

You failed to cite your sources.

The story was minimalist and added nothing to help understand the build.

Your 1-level dip into Master Samurai doesn't synergize with the SI in any significant way, so that dip hurts your score in Elegance.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.25
You entered the SI in a timely manner and took all 10 levels of Shiba Protector, but don't appear to use anything from the class. Class features No Thought and One with All and Nothing are useless because you made Wisdom a dump stat (+0 modifier). Diamond Soul would have been better-served if you had a high Wisdom, but it might still be viable against a weak caster level check. You're not even permitted to use Aid Shugenja; it requires a Spellcraft check which you can't make untrained.

Your build also does nothing with Combat Expertise: you don't have any stratagem involving fighting defensively, nor do you build on it (take any feat which has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite). You do have enough Tumble ranks for an AC bonus when you're fighting defensively, so that at least would synergize with use of Combat Expertise.


Originality: 4
You picked a class that was unique for this round, and which also surprised me. Your race was as expected, while your feat choices were largely novel (not necessarily effective, but still novel). Maximizing Intimidate and adding Never Outnumbered and Imperious Command was the only hackneyed bit. Overall a very good show.

Power: 3.25
The combination of binding Naberius and choosing [Vile] feats which cause you damage is a good one. Of course, from the time you take Insane Defiance (level 6) until you get the ability to bind 2 vestiges (level 18) you lose flexibility; you either only bind Naberius (and really hope there's not a pulpit, soap box, or stage wherever combat finds you†), or you don't get the value of the abilty damage + immediate healing combo.

you’ve got 2 vestiges handy now, and they’ll probably be either zceryll and chupoclops or balam and haures, depending on your needs.
You don't have Expel Vestige or Rapid Pact Making, so you really don't have that flexibility. Either you're going to be using your [Vile] feats with Naberius, or you're not. You have to guess what your needs are going to be for the next 24 hours, and you're stuck even if your guess is a bad one.
† - My characters generally paint "Naberius: Talking Stick!" on the sides of all their darts, arrows, and bolts. It's really precious to have an enemy pick a missed arrow up off the ground and stand there yelling at you while you fire volley after volley at their friends.

By the time you get Astral Vambraces many attacks will be magical and thus overcome your DR/magic. This choice is of limited value, which value declines rapidly as most attacks become magical at higher levels.

Imperious Command is another feat of limited value to you. Simply put, intimidation is very tough without abilities beyond those you've chosen. To use the feat you must succeed at demoralizing an enemy, which attempt takes a standard action after you've invested in many skill ranks and the feat. Enemies resist with a modified level check, which costs them no special resources. Enemies of reasonable CR will maybe be a couple of HD below yours, and a maximized skill is 3 above, so that's perhaps a +5 advantage — except that's before their WIS bonus is factored in. So your 1 feat + maximized skill + standard action may yield a slightly-better-than-even chance to subject them to a fear effect for 2 rounds, and nothing if you fail. That's not good return for the investment. If you were a Zhentarim Soldier with Swift Demoralize we'd be talking a different story, but you're not. Never Outnumbered is nifty when it works, but it only affects enemies stupid enough to clump up (within 10' of you) and it's just one attempt per encounter.

You don't qualify for Open Lesser Chakra, so that's a waste.

You didn't list any required gear, so apparently you'll be fighting weaponless without Improved Unarmed Strike except on the days when you've bound a vestige which can attack.

You have no ranks in Spot or Listen; you're relying on Alertness and WIS bonus to avoid surpise. (Paying for cross-class skill ranks would be better than being clueless.) You've got enough Spellcraft skill to guarantee success on the easier Aid Shugenja check (empower) but not on the more difficult one (maximize). You don't have 5 ranks in Balance, a basic defensive need. You have no Tumble skill, whereas 5 ranks would provide an AC bonus that stacks with use of Combat Expertise to fight defensively.

Binder is a good choice to raise the Power of the overall character a bit above that of the SI, but your feats range from completely useless to situationally viable on the days you bind the right vestige.

Elegance: 2.5
Your build table abbreviations were hard to read. After "diplo 4" my first guess was that "sm 4" was 4 ranks in Swim.

You failed to specify your Pact Augmentation abilities.

Open Lesser Chakra requires CON 15, and you have 14, so the feat is illegal in the build.

Your sources were only roughly specified. You used some links.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2
You're augmenting your Wisdom, which should ordinarily work well for the SI. You've manage to put together an effective character, but that's at the expense of some Shiba Protector abilities. You've emphasized using Insane Defiance offensively. The problem from a UoSI perspective is that using Insane Defiance means that you're not using Shiba Protector abilities. If you instead use Insane Defiance defensively, you're avoiding using both Dancing with the Elements and Diamond Soul. Using Imperious Command of course means you're not using No Thought. (You might be using One with All and Nothing, but you didn't say so and it's a limited use ability.) What you did mention in your writeup doesn't actually have anything to do with the Secret Ingredient.

If shiba protector is short-grain rice, insane defiance is the strand of saffron I add to give it taste, color, and joy.
Yes, there's a Shiba Protector class feature that requires having Shugenja nearby. But you're not using that, and you're using a feat and a Binder class ability rather than anything from the SI. This tactic is not a spice, but a menu substitution.

Your build also does nothing with Combat Expertise: you don't have any stratagem involving fighting defensively, nor do you build on it (take any feat which has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite).

You list no weapons, so you can't get much out of No Thought; if you've bound a vestige like Focalor you'll get partial benefit.


Originality: 2.5
OA Samurai and Devoted Defender were used in several builds this Iron Chef round, and Crusader is duplicated in one, so you largely lose out on distinguishing yourself from the other entrants. OA Samurai is the expected entry to the SI according to the book, and I'm obviously not the only one who thought Devoted Defender was a good fit with the SI. Adding a Crusader dip, and successfully integrating it into the SI theme, was surprising. Iaijutsu Master, from the same book as the Samurai and Shiba Protector, was less surprising.

Power: 3.75
You've managed to bolster the capabilities of the Shiba Protector pretty successfully with your many class dips. You've got the maximum BAB compatible with the Secret Ingredient. Skill selections are less effective. You've got some ranks in Spot and Listen, but you're mostly relying on Alertness and WIS bonus to avoid being surpised; and if you're surprised your Iaijutsu Focus skill will be wasted. You've got just enough Spellcraft skill to guarantee success on both Aid Shugenja checks (empower and maximize), so that one's efficiently executed. Your Tumble skill is pathetic; you're 2 ranks short of a nice boost to defensive fighting (and you're wishy-washy about whether you'll be using heavy armor, which would preclude use of the skill). You've invested a lot in Jump without a clear use for the skill. You have just enough Ride skill to get into trouble in combat. You don't have 5 ranks in Balance, a basic defensive need.

You don't list any necessary gear beyond the swords you get as an OA Samurai class feature, so you don't have a horse (which you can't Ride especially well anyway) or armor (which you can't use with some abilities).

Elegance: 1.75

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below.
You failed to follow the above rule.

The story amounted to your character, a Shiba Protector, comes from a long line of Shibas who protect. It didn't make up for the lack of required write-ups.

You didn't include Ancestral Daisho improvement on the OA Samurai's level 4 class features (Dragon # 318, page 34).

You failed to cite many of your sources (everything from Player's Handbook, for instance).

You don't list any required gear beyond the swords you get as an OA Samurai class feature.

You didn't follow the "use it, link it" rule.

Your build is pretty dippy, but most of those make sense in bolstering a Shiba Protector's abilities. Iron Guard’s Glare stance is the redeeming protective feature of your 1-level Crusader dip, for instance. Devoted Defender is a natural filler for more protective capabilities. However, the Iaijutsu Master dip has nothing special in it to make you a better Shiba Protector, and it's situated to delay your acquisition of more SI capabilities. It's a good fit in terms of Power, but by only bolstering your offense and personal defense rather than anything for your protectee, this dip hurts you in Elegance.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5
Heavy investment in Wisdom gives you better use of several SI class features. Excellent all-around saves mean that with Dancing with the Elements you'll probably only get hit by spell effects when you roll a 1 for your saving throw. Two of the Shiba Protector feat requirements are passive, always-on bonuses; they don't need any tinkering. You've added a feat, Deceptive Dodge, that helps situationally (when you fight defensively), leveraging Combat Expertise. You added another feat which leverages Combat Expertise, Riposte, to create AoOs. Gaining productive use from this required feat investment is very good, though without Combat Reflexes increasing AoOs isn't necessarily productive. (I'm surprised you didn't go for Allied Defense (Shining South, page 19) to boost your protectee's AC. And I'm shocked that you managed to avoid the Tumble 5 ranks boost to defensive fighting.)

You've got excellent synergies with the SI and your Crusader stance and especially Devoted Defender Harm’s Way.


Originality: 3
With a couple of unique classes for this round, only following the pack with Devoted Defender, you score well for the part of Originality dependent on distinguishing yourself from the competition. Race is as expected. I didn't expect Hexblade, though Swordsage and Devoted Defender were unsurprising. Failing to qualify for the SI is fairly novel, but not in a good way.

Power: 1.25
This build ends up with 10 levels compared to the expected 20, with 2 attacks per full attack. You fail to qualify for your later maneuvers because removing the 10 Shiba Protector levels drops your Initiator Level by 5. Relative to an average level 20 martial character you're very weak.

Elegance: 0
You screwed the pooch by failing to satisfy the Knowledge (religion) entry requirement for Shiba Protector, so your build is mechanically illegal. You managed to satisfy the Devoted Defender entry requirements on levels other than Shiba Protector, so that's still there (assuming the Alertness qualification works, which requires that your familiar be within 5' when you gain enough XP for level advancement); your build ends up with 10 levels instead of 20 after the offending material is removed.

There are other Elegance issues, but there's no point in rubbing salt in the wound.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1
You don't use the Secret Ingredient due to a failure to qualify.


Originality: 3
Azurin was a unique race in this competition, and one I didn't expect; it was nice to see something different here. Crusader was duplicated in one other build, and Devoted Defender was fairly popular this Iron Chef round; Incarnate was your only unique class.

Power: 2
You've got BAB +14, which gives you 3 iterative attacks. Martial adept levels are a fairly standard way of boosting a melee fighter's Power. Your maneuver and stance selections seemed designed mostly to heal you or bolster you and your allies in melee combat. While self-healing might take the pressure off Your Shugenja spellcasting ally to keep you going, they are unlikely to benefit from melee combat boosts. Incarnate adds a little bit of utility, but not that much with only 2 levels.

Your skill selections aren't focused. You've got some ranks in Spot but nothing in Listen; you're mostly relying on Alertness from your Soulspark Familiar and WIS bonus to avoid being surpised. You've got more than enough Spellcraft skill to guarantee success on both Aid Shugenja checks (empower and maximize), and also more than required for Spellcaster Support, so I don't see the use of the overage. Your Tumble skill is somewhat more than you need for the boost to defensive fighting, but not enough to guarantee movement without provoking AoOs. You've got enough Jump skill to give a synergy bonus to Tumble, but not enough to clear more than a single square with a running start. You've got a few ranks in Diplomacy, but not enough to matter. With Intimidate countered by a modified level check you're unlikely to achieve anything with that skill. You do have 5 ranks in Balance, a basic defensive need.

Feats are hit or miss. Power Attack paired with Martial Stance (Aura of Perfect Order) makes sense, as it removes much of the guesswork from Power Attack calculations. Spellcaster Support is a mechanically illegal part of the build, so the fact that it's a weak feat is irrelevant. Combat Reflexes would be a much better choice if you had chosen some maneuvers or stances which provoked AoOs; as it is, you're mostly going to gain its benefit of allowing AoOs when you're flat-footed because you will be caught flat-footed a lot with weak perception skills.

All in all, your 18-level build ends up being underpowered relative to the SI.

Elegance: 1.5
The favored class for Azurins is Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum, page 8), not Incarnate. Iron Bear is subject to the Uneven Levels multiclassing rule (Player's Handbook, page 60) starting after 6th character level; from that point on, continuing for the rest of the build, he's subject to a 20% reduction in XP. The XP available is enough to get to just under level 19. Accordingly, the last 2 levels of the build are mechanically illegal. You manage to gain the most important Devoted Defender protective ability, Harm's Way, and your level 18 feat, but you don't get to BAB +16 and your fourth iterative attack.

Spellcaster Support is an [Ancestor] feat. Your terse "Sources" spoiler lists

Spellcaster Support: Dragon Magazine OA update
but apparently you missed this part (from Dragon # 318, page 37):

Any character can choose an Ancestor feat, but only at 1st level.
This isn't a legal feat at 15th level.

Soulspark Familiar as a way to gain Alertness is a fairly risky entry to all your Shiba Protector and Devoted Defender levels. Your Soulspark Familiar could be forcibly unshaped in a battle which results in enough XP to advance to the next level, at which time you would not have Alertness to qualify for your intended class. You get to assume successful attainment of those levels in your build table, but then I get to ding you for ignoring that risk here in Elegance.

You didn't follow the "use it, link it" rule.

Your sources were only roughly specified.

You mentioned only one piece of gear, a longsword.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.25
Your entry into the SI is delayed by your Incarnate levels so you can acquire Alertness, which means you're able to use the Secret Ingredient for less of the build. You emphasize Wisdom, which helps with class features No Thought, Diamond Soul, and One with All and Nothing. You've got a straightforward melee focus, so you'll get a lot of use out of No Thought to make up for low Strength. Your Fortitude save is excellent and Will is good, so you're well-situated to save against many spells with your Dancing with the Elements bonus. Reflex is low enough that even that boost may not help you.

I was rather perplexed at your maneuver and stance selections because none of them help protect your Shugenja spellcasting friends. The other Crusader build in this Iron Chef round, Shiba Daisuke, showed that there's at least one useful protective stance, Iron Guard’s Glare. Your Shugenja ally is more likely to benefit from that than from a bonus to their charge attacks. Similarly your soulmelds don't add noticeably to your protective capabilities. You're making yourself a somewhat better fighter, but not specifically a better protector. Your 1-level dip into Devoted Defender adds Harm's Way, which is a significant plus, but you failed to pick up the next 2 levels for more protective class features, including Defensive Strike to make Combat Reflexes more useful.

Your build also does nothing with Combat Expertise: you don't have any stratagem involving fighting defensively, nor do you build on it (take any feat which has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite). You do have enough Tumble ranks for an AC bonus when you're fighting defensively, so that at least would synergize with use of Combat Expertise.

Originality: 1.5
Your race and most (17/20 levels) of your classes were not unique in this Iron Chef round. You also matched a build suggested in the thread (as a joke), so there was nothing surprising in those classes. You get very little for the half of Originality based on distinguishing yourself from other contestants. The distinguishing classes were two small dips, Fighter and Exotic Weapon Master, and the first was unsurprising in a martial build. Your feats were mostly out of the Player's Handbook, so nothing much surprising there, either.

Power: 1.5
You've got the maximum BAB compatible with the Secret Ingredient. You get ease of adding weapon enhancements with Ancestral Daisho because it's a DIY project, but this doesn't give you any more gear than another 20th-level character. Your total for Ancestral Daisho enhancements is limited, independent of your funds because it's a specific class feature, so a total of +10 in katana enhancements leaves nothing available for the wakizashi. That's actually better for you, because you've set the character up to use double katanas; you simply buy a second katana and don't draw the wakizashi. You wisely avoided being locked into Two Swords as One with CW Samurai 2, and you've paid the cost in feats for this double katana combo. The problem is that you've focused a lot of build resources on being able to use those weapons, and just swinging swords well is very little to show for a 20-level build.

You're attempting to pull off a cheesy rules bypass with Power Attack and Uncanny Blow. Weapons which may have different categorizations, such as one-handed or two-handed depending on their use, do not remain in both categories simultaneously. Uncanny Blow applies when you're wielding a (normally) one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, not when you're wielding the same type of one-handed exotic melee weapon in each of your two hands. You can certainly make use of Uncanny Blow, but you do it by forgoing Two-Weapon Fighting. Or vice-versa. Uncanny Blow is redundant, though, because you've got Blades of Death from Master Samurai 4, the immediate previous level in the build. The net result is you've got a bit more flexibility in how you attack, but not noticeably greater Power, relative to what would be expected at level 19, and nothing extra for level 20. I'll take your alternative of Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting here instead.

You do have 5 ranks in Balance, a basic defensive need. You've got a fair amount of Iaijutsu Focus skill, but nothing to create the flat-footed condition necessary for use of that skill. You have just enough Ride skill to get into trouble in combat. You have excellent Tumble skill, which is a definite battlefield Power-up (if you don't throw it away by wearing Medium+ armor). You have no ranks in Spot or Listen; you're relying on Alertness and WIS bonus to avoid surpise. (Paying for cross-class skill ranks would be better than being clueless.) Aid Shugenja requires a Spellcraft check by the Shiba Protector (as specified by the Chairwoman here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19372186&postcount=21)), but you've minimally trained that skill so you'll need a rolled 4 to succeed on the easier (DC 10) check, and a rolled 9 for the other; you'll fail to maximize a useful defensive spell from your Shugenja companion almost half the time. Relative to the Power of a Secret Ingredient that's on the weak side you're still coming up short for the 20 level build.

Elegance: 2.5
Your build stub claims to have 5 levels of Master Samurai, whereas the build table has 4 levels of MS and 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master. You would have been better off with the former, because Exotic Weapon Master has no special synergies with the Secret Ingredient and I penalize for dips that don't work well with the SI.

You failed to cite many of your sources (everything from Player's Handbook, for instance).

Your other sources were only roughly specified. You used one link.

You did mention some critical gear, which was refreshing in this Iron Chef round. You didn't do it in an easily-digestible fashion (a single gear list), which was less so. You mention armor spikes, but not the armor necessary for their attachment. You're limited to Light armor with those spikes if you want to use your maximized Tumble skill. You're limited to no armor if you want to use the Monk's Belt you also mentioned. You can't have all of these incompatible options, and a separate gear list would probably have brought that issue to your attention.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.75
You entered the SI in a timely manner and took all 10 levels of Shiba Protector; that's good on both counts. You've emphasized your Wisdom, which helps with class features No Thought, Diamond Soul, and One with All and Nothing. You've got a simple melee focus, so you'll get a lot of use out of No Thought. Your many dips have given you excellent Fortitude and Will saves, so you're in pretty good shape to benefit from Dancing with the Elements. I've already mentioned your Spellcraft weakness with regard to Aid Shugenja.

Making the rest of your build amplify your ability to protect your Shugenja charge is where you come up short. You've had to put so much of your build resources into satisfying the entry requirements for all your prestige classes that you've got nothing left over to be a better protector; and those PrCs themselves aren't great choices if you're trying to augment protection capabilities. Hitting things with your swords isn't enough to ensure your protectee's safety unless you can guarantee instant death to enemies, and you can't do that.

Your build also does nothing with Combat Expertise: you don't have any stratagem involving fighting defensively, nor do you build on it (take any feat which has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite). You do have enough Tumble ranks for an AC bonus when you're fighting defensively, so that at least would synergize with use of Combat Expertise.


Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of judging dissent. :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

Thank you for judging, Curmudgeon. Extremely thorough and well-reasoned.

I have two concerns, though, not related to any particular build:

I have never provided a source for Core material, nor can I ever recall another judge asking for sources on Core material. My understanding of the reasoning for providing sources is primarily to identify obscure sources. This helps save the judge time, but I can't imagine that citing the PHB would help much in this regard. It might even make finding the more obscure sources harder if I have to dig my way through a list of PHB citations.

You mention "required equipment" several times, but many other Iron Chef judges have a long history of warning off and penalizing contestants who rely too heavily on equipment, so much so that I believe it's common practice to not include any equipment discussion. I personally prefer no mention of equipment at all, as I want to see how a build stands on its own without equipment. If you prefer otherwise, then it would be good to add that to your judging criteria. Edit: it was in the criteria, I just missed it. My fault for not reading carefully.

[Venger]

Thank you for judging, Curmudgeon. Extremely thorough and well-reasoned.

I have two concerns, though, not related to any particular build:

I have never provided a source for Core material, nor can I ever recall another judge asking for sources on Core material. My understanding of the reasoning for providing sources is primarily to identify obscure sources. This helps save the judge time, but I can't imagine that citing the PHB would help much in this regard. It might even make finding the more obscure sources harder if I have to dig my way through a list of PHB citations.

You mention "required equipment" several times, but many other Iron Chef judges have a long history of warning off and penalizing contestants who rely too heavily on equipment, so much so that I believe it's common practice to not include any equipment discussion. I personally prefer no mention of equipment at all, as I want to see how a build stands on its own without equipment. If you prefer otherwise, then it would be good to add that to your judging criteria.
Agreed on both points.

We do not list equipment at all in iron chef. It's part of how the contest is run. mentioning any equipment will result in a penalty for being "item-reliant," and unlike very very early rounds, it's not necessary to say you want a +stat item or a tome since it can be understood to be something you'd use your WBL for, much less mundane equipment like armor, weapons, or a horse.

[Curmudgeon]

I have never provided a source for Core material, nor can I ever recall another judge asking for sources on Core material.
I thought that was implicit in the "use it, link it" rule. I did pretty well with my first Iron Chef entry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18960582&postcount=75) and I thought it was a basic courtesy to the judges to include online links where available, and book and page number otherwise. Having class and feat requirements available with one click makes judging better: both quicker and less prone to missing something important.


I personally prefer no mention of equipment at all, as I want to see how a build stands on its own without equipment. If you prefer otherwise, then it would be good to add that to your judging criteria.
I thought I had that covered.

If your character relies on gear you need to list all such equipment requirements, just as you would specify a Culinique pan in a Baked Alaska recipe.
Some feats, like Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery, may be taken for no other reason than that they're required for entry to a PrC (Master Samurai). If instead the build creator intends the character to actually have and use both horse and bow, those items should be listed as necessary equipment. I don't make any presumptions. Characters get one set of clothing and whatever is stated as class features (a spellbook for Wizards, katana and wakizashi for OA Samurai). Beyond that, they've got what's stated by the build author.

Your preference requires that spellcasters be able to function without a spell component pouch and most martial characters rely on unarmed combat.


We do not list equipment at all in iron chef. It's part of how the contest is run.
If you can convince the Chairwoman to include that in the contest rules I'll agree. As it is, I think you're just advocating laziness.

[Darrin]

I thought that was implicit in the "use it, link it" rule.

"Use it, link it" appears in the FAQ rather than the contest rules, so I am not sure if it explicitly counts as a rule or "good advice". And as written, it only applies to online sources rather than books or Core materials. If the majority of judges insists on a URL for every source, including Core, then I think we can consider adding that as a rule, but at present I'm content with "online sources = link, book outside Core = citation".




If your character relies on gear you need to list all such equipment requirements, just as you would specify a Culinique pan in a Baked Alaska recipe.


Aha! Found it. Egregious reading failure on my part.



Your preference requires that spellcasters be able to function without a spell component pouch and most martial characters rely on unarmed combat.


You must be joking. This level of pedantry is beneath you. I think I can speak for most contestants when I say I am not going to waste my time listing basic equipment and spell components.



If you can convince the Chairwoman to include that in the contest rules I'll agree. As it is, I think you're just advocating laziness.

Not at all. The rules and common practice already discourage listing equipment. Meeting your requirements would be a change in the existing rules.

[A_S]

You mention "required equipment" several times, but many other Iron Chef judges have a long history of warning off and penalizing contestants who rely too heavily on equipment, so much so that I believe it's common practice to not include any equipment discussion. I personally prefer no mention of equipment at all, as I want to see how a build stands on its own without equipment.

We do not list equipment at all in iron chef. It's part of how the contest is run. mentioning any equipment will result in a penalty for being "item-reliant," and unlike very very early rounds, it's not necessary to say you want a +stat item or a tome since it can be understood to be something you'd use your WBL for, much less mundane equipment like armor, weapons, or a horse.
Are these statements really accurate? I would have framed this a bit differently from my (mostly lurker-y) view of Iron Chef rounds over the years. Something more like "some past judges were so strict on treating any mention of equipment as over-reliance on it that now people are afraid to mention it." Which I view as more of an unfortunate result of poor judging choices in the past, and a persistent problem, than as "just the way we do things around here."

I didn't do my judging on as strict a "no assumptions" policy as Curmudgeon; I assume that melee builds have access to weapons and armor, spellcasters have access to scrolls and component pouches, UMD-users have access to wands of common spells, etc. Assuming that any equipment not explicitly mentioned is non-existent seems excessively pedantic to me.

But if I were ever in a position to judge a build that benefited from some item or class of items in particular (e.g., a demoralize build wanting Fearsome armor; a build using a +stat item to qualify for something; an Iaijutsu Focus build performing best with Gnomish Quickrazors; etc.), I would want that to be included in the write-up. Some of these things I can see for myself reading a build (any build that uses the demoralize action is going to want Fearsome armor), but others I might not think of unless they're pointed out to me. Like, does your War Weaver-based arcane healer build have enough ranks in UMD and Heal to make effective use of a wand of Healing Lorecall to remove status effects when it casts healing spells? Awesome! Please mention this or I will never figure it out on my own.

If I'd realized how strongly ingrained the whole "the first rule of Iron Chef is you don't talk about equipment" thing was, I'd have been more careful to emphasize in my criteria that I would only be penalizing for over-reliance on excessively specific and not-necessarily available equipment, and that part of the whole "please include a write-up of what your build is actually supposed to do" thing was some level of description of the gear that would help it do that stuff, if the equipment used particularly mattered.

In my view, the notion of "over-reliance on equipment" is to penalize builds that are so reliant on some particular item that they just can't be brought to any table where that item doesn't exist, or become paperweights if their MacGuffin is ever stolen as a plot device by the DM (for the same reason that, if it weren't banned for this competition, I'd penalize builds that relied heavily on an Item Familiar). If that notion is being interpreted so broadly that people are afraid to mention that part of what's cool about their build is that it makes particularly good use of Widget X if it's available, then that seems like a problem to me. And if that actually is the policy, then A) that policy sucks, and should be changed, and B) Curmudgeon's right, it needs to be specified in the rules.

Not at all. The rules and common practice already discourage listing equipment. Meeting your requirements would be a change in the existing rules.
Common practice might. I don't see it anywhere in the rules...

[Curmudgeon]

Where was this from? It wasn't in the judging criteria you posted at the start of this thread.
Check again. The quote includes the link to my judging criteria post.

Edit: I see we've resolved this.


"Use it, link it" appears in the FAQ rather than the contest rules, so I am not sure if it explicitly counts as a rule or "good advice". And as written, it only applies to online sources rather than books or Core materials.
All the SRD (most of core D&D) is online source material, so there's no "rather than" distinction.

[Darrin]

Check again. The quote includes the link to my judging criteria post.

I found it. My fault for failing at basic reading comprehension.

[Venger]

Are these statements really accurate? I would have framed this a bit differently from my (mostly lurker-y) view of Iron Chef rounds over the years. Something more like "some past judges were so strict on treating any mention of equipment as over-reliance on it that now people are afraid to mention it." Which I view as more of an unfortunate result of poor judging choices in the past, and a persistent problem, than as "just the way we do things around here."

Yes, they are. As someone who has been an extremely active participant in iron chef for the last several years, that's how we've done things for quite some time. We don't talk about equipment.

There are a lot of reasons (including, as you mentioned, poor judging) but there are others as well. the primary ostensible goal is for judges to only see what's there in the build itself (re abilities, saves, etc) and to have a good view of what your numbers are due to build choices and not due to items you are using as a crutch. over time this has grown into never mentioning equipment whatsoever.


I didn't do my judging on as strict a "no assumptions" policy as Curmudgeon; I assume that melee builds have access to weapons and armor, spellcasters have access to scrolls and component pouches, UMD-users have access to wands of common spells, etc. Assuming that any equipment not explicitly mentioned is non-existent seems excessively pedantic to me.
Yes, we all agree with you on these points.



But if I were ever in a position to judge a build that benefited from some item or class of items in particular (e.g., a demoralize build wanting Fearsome armor; a build using a +stat item to qualify for something; an Iaijutsu Focus build performing best with Gnomish Quickrazors; etc.), I would want that to be included in the write-up. Some of these things I can see for myself reading a build (any build that uses the demoralize action is going to want Fearsome armor), but others I might not think of unless they're pointed out to me. Like, does your War Weaver-based arcane healer build have enough ranks in UMD and Heal to make effective use of a wand of Healing Lorecall to remove status effects when it casts healing spells? Awesome! Please mention this or I will never figure it out on my own.

I understand what you're saying. next time you judge, you might want to mention something like this. I'd certainly appreciate it.


If I'd realized how strongly ingrained the whole "the first rule of Iron Chef is you don't talk about equipment" thing was, I'd have been more careful to emphasize in my criteria that I would only be penalizing for over-reliance on excessively specific and not-necessarily available equipment, and that part of the whole "please include a write-up of what your build is actually supposed to do" thing was some level of description of the gear that would help it do that stuff, if the equipment used particularly mattered.
good idea.


In my view, the notion of "over-reliance on equipment" is to penalize builds that are so reliant on some particular item that they just can't be brought to any table where that item doesn't exist, or become paperweights if their MacGuffin is ever stolen as a plot device by the DM (for the same reason that, if it weren't banned for this competition, I'd penalize builds that relied heavily on an Item Familiar). If that notion is being interpreted so broadly that people are afraid to mention that part of what's cool about their build is that it makes particularly good use of Widget X if it's available, then that seems like a problem to me. And if that actually is the policy, then A) that policy sucks, and should be changed, and B) Curmudgeon's right, it needs to be specified in the rules.

that's correct. I think it's fair to say no one in this round is relying unfairly on equipment.

chair, we would greatly appreciate some intervention.

[Darrin]

Common practice might. I don't see it anywhere in the rules...

Fair point. I think I overstated my opinion. The current rules do not mention anything about listing equipment, either as a requirement or as something to avoid.



All the SRD (most of core D&D) is online source material, so there's no "rather than" distinction.

An irrelevant point. The context of the FAQ entry only applies to WotC articles, not the SRD. The SRD posted by WotC does not exist as articles, they exist as RTF files. I can't imagine how linking to the RTF files would save anyone any time.

If the majority of judges and contestants want to see links to the SRD, that's fine, but that's not my understanding of the current common practice.


chair, we would greatly appreciate some intervention.

I'm not sure that's necessary. I'm fine with Curmudgeon's judging as it is, as far as the scores are concerned. Everything he lays out is thoroughly explained and applied fairly. I was just concerned about his criteria breaking from common practice (which I should have brought up earlier when we were discussing it). If he wants to assign scores according to citations and equipment, that's within his rights as a judge. And I'm not opposed to changing the common practices if the majority agrees that it will save time and reduce disputes.

My stance with regards to equipment: The build should work without equipment. But if the equipment is important to show off an element of the SI, then mention it. If a build requires a piece of equipment to function properly, you may get penalized.

To use the food anology, a chef can add some notes on equipment as optional spices to highlight certain flavor variations. But if removing one item ruins the dish, then the point of the contest fails.

[A_S]

Okay, I thought a bit more about this and why the "don't mention equipment" tendency rubs me the wrong way. Hopefully this is clearer:

-----

The purpose of this contest is to produce a build, not a fully fleshed-out and equipped character. Thus, I am not interested in evaluating the quality of contestants' equipment choices. I already know that melee builds designed to fight with weapons need to have weapons. I already know that, the better the weapon they have access to, the more effective they will be. I am not interested in testing the splatbook-diving abilities of the contestants to see how powerful a weapon they can describe, and I suspect that most contestants are not interested in spending hours splatbook-diving for weapon enhancements, for fear that they might otherwise present a sub-optimal equipment list and be penalized accordingly.

However, making particularly good use of one or more type(s) of equipment can, itself, be a feature of a build: If a contestant presents an archer, and their archer is a Neraph who is capable of casting Polymorph, then the fact that he's capable of turning into an Arrow Demon and firing twice as many shots is something strong about their build. But that's only something you can claim if you can say you'll have access to two longbows.
I already mentioned a way that having certain skill ranks might allow a build to make particularly effective use of a wand of Healing Lorecall. But you can only brag about that if you can mention a Wand of Healing Lorecall.
If someone discovers a heretofore-unknown combo involving some future SI's class features that allows the user to, say, use Alchemist's Fire in a way that doesn't suck, then that discovery is something they should be able to be rewarded for. But that's only true if you can mention Alchemist's Fire.
If the policy (official or unofficial) is "don't mention equipment," then the entire category of "being able to use equipment in a particularly cool/interesting/powerful way" is unavailable to contestants as a way to distinguish their builds. That would be, in my opinion, a Bad Thing, because the whole point of a competition like this is to give contestants as many ways to show off their character-building skills as possible.

-----

I will include some (probably much briefer) reference to this reasoning in my criteria next time I judge.

[Venger]

Okay, I thought a bit more about this and why the "don't mention equipment" tendency rubs me the wrong way. Hopefully this is clearer:
-----

The purpose of this contest is to produce a build, not a fully fleshed-out and equipped character. Thus, I am not interested in evaluating the quality of contestants' equipment choices. I already know that melee builds designed to fight with weapons need to have weapons. I already know that, the better the weapon they have access to, the more effective they will be. I am not interested in testing the splatbook-diving abilities of the contestants to see how powerful a weapon they can describe, and I suspect that most contestants are not interested in spending hours splatbook-diving for weapon enhancements, for fear that they might otherwise present a sub-optimal equipment list and be penalized accordingly.

right. this is why we don't list all our equipment. because it's a waste of time and has nothing to do with our build. we can all buy the same stuff. consequently, we should not be penalized for not listing equipment, especially when it's things we should be understood through common sense to have, like a horse, armor, or a weapon.



However, making particularly good use of one or more type(s) of equipment can, itself, be a feature of a build: If a contestant presents an archer, and their archer is a Neraph who is capable of casting Polymorph, then the fact that he's capable of turning into an Arrow Demon and firing twice as many shots is something strong about their build. But that's only something you can claim if you can say you'll have access to two longbows.
I already mentioned a way that having certain skill ranks might allow a build to make particularly effective use of a wand of Healing Lorecall. But you can only brag about that if you can mention a Wand of Healing Lorecall.
If someone discovers a heretofore-unknown combo involving some future SI's class features that allows the user to, say, use Alchemist's Fire in a way that doesn't suck, then that discovery is something they should be able to be rewarded for. But that's only true if you can mention Alchemist's Fire.
I understand your feelings, but feel they are at odds with your above statement. I agree that chefs should be able to allow some equipment, as in your examples, but I don't think we should have to provide an exhaustive list of every little magical trinket we have, especially since a lot of it's gonna look the same anyway and won't (and shouldn't) affect our final score (e.g. +stat item, cloak of resistance, etc)



If the policy (official or unofficial) is "don't mention equipment," then the entire category of "being able to use equipment in a particularly cool/interesting/powerful way" is unavailable to contestants as a way to distinguish their builds. That would be, in my opinion, a Bad Thing, because the whole point of a competition like this is to give contestants as many ways to show off their character-building skills as possible.
-----

I will include some (probably much briefer) reference to this reasoning in my criteria next time I judge.
I am inclined to agree with you. while I personally have little interest in the crafting subgame, if someone wants to roll an artificer (for example) like one of the chefs did in dungeon lord, he should not be evaluated as though he "did not mention crafting magic items, so he has no magic items." the same's true to a lesser extent for those of us who merely want to use equipment normally.

that's probably a good idea.

I'm sure heliomance will provide further guidance on the issue.

[Curmudgeon]

My philosophy in judging is that I don't want to inject too many of my assumptions into the build; I want to treat it just as the author presents it. If they're going to be using a mount, will any horse do, or do they see a heavy warhorse as the minimum needed? If it's a melee character, do they assume they'll have a golf bag of weapons to cover slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, alchemical silver, adamantine, and other Damage Reduction requirements? Do they see preparing for Mirror Image with splash weapons as necessary to be viable against spellcasters? (I certainly do with my Rogues, but I've found that this use often comes as a surprise at gaming tables.)

A_S (first post; not the one just stealing my thunder here :smallwink:) made the distinction between common items and specialty gear. My distinction is between what the build author sees as the minimum necessary for the character to function and optional equipment. Mentioning light armor because the character isn't seen as viable unarmored, but you want to make sure they can still Tumble, would be an example of necessary equipment. Leaving out such a detail invites speculation by the judges (this character is too fragile, or this character is going to be too slow because they'll be wearing armor so as not to be fragile) which may be at odds with the build author's intent. If you're presenting an Elf character that you think should be viable in melee combat, listing an adamantine longsword as necessary gear (longsword because its a racial proficiency; adamantine as protection against sundering) clearly communicates that. Failing to list that gear could mean either (1) that the character has no viability in melee, or (2) that you expect the judges to magically share your assumptions that of course there's a way, with the right equipment, to make that work. Venger's "no gear listed" approach invites unhappiness in judging, with these issues being brought up as disputes rather than being clear in the builds.

A Belt of Magnificence +6 is within the budget of 20th-level characters, and useful to the majority of them. For most of them that would be optional equipment, which doesn't need to be listed. Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 used to acquire Power Attack at a convenient level (before Strength is boosted from 12 to 13 at the next increment) would be necessary equipment, probably well within the character's budget. If a judge thinks that relying on that piece of equipment for a level or two is unconscionable, but shuffling feats with Psychic Reformation is fine, I believe we've got an attitude problem related to gear listings.

[A_S]

I understand your feelings, but feel they are at odds with your above statement. I agree that chefs should be able to allow some equipment, as in your examples, but I don't think we should have to provide an exhaustive list of every little magical trinket we have, especially since a lot of it's gonna look the same anyway and won't (and shouldn't) affect our final score (e.g. +stat item, cloak of resistance, etc)
Er, in case it was unclear, I'm not advocating for full equipment lists; I'm advocating against "do not list equipment at all" as an official policy or pervasive rule of thumb.

Curmudgeon, I think I'm just comfortable with somewhat more assumptions than you are. If I see a build with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and no Improved Unarmed Strike, I feel pretty confident that they're planning on fighting with a two-handed melee weapon. Judging their build on the basis of its ability to fight with its fists, just because their write-up didn't get to mentioning that they planned on using a greatsword (and would suck without one), seems like it's just going to miss the point, rather than increase the accuracy of my assessment of their build's quality.

[Venger]

My philosophy in judging is that I don't want to inject too many of my assumptions into the build; I want to treat it just as the author presents it. If they're going to be using a mount, will any horse do, or do they see a heavy warhorse as the minimum needed? If it's a melee character, do they assume they'll have a golf bag of weapons to cover slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, alchemical silver, adamantine, and other Damage Reduction requirements? Do they see preparing for Mirror Image with splash weapons as necessary to be viable against spellcasters? (I certainly do with my Rogues, but I've found that this use often comes as a surprise at gaming tables.)
I understand what you're saying, but do you honestly think people are suggesting their melee-focused characters go into combat naked and unarmed because they don't provide an exhaustive equipment list? as explained above, we never list equipment for iron chef because it's not part of what judging evaluates.

in past rounds, even mentioning one optional piece of equipment you can pull off a neat trick with has resulted in penalties for being "item-reliant," so chefs have erred on the side of caution and omitted references to equipment altogether.

as far as the specific things you're saying (do melee have weapons to overcome dr, splashing, etc) yes, I think that's fair as the kind of basic assumptions we're talking about. they're the kind of thing everyone does, so there's no reason to mention them. it's just common sense.



A_S (first post; not the one just stealing my thunder here :smallwink:) made the distinction between common items and specialty gear. My distinction is between what the build author sees as the minimum necessary for the character to function and optional equipment. Mentioning light armor because the character isn't seen as viable unarmored, but you want to make sure they can still Tumble, would be an example of necessary equipment. Leaving out such a detail invites speculation by the judges (this character is too fragile, or this character is going to be too slow because they'll be wearing armor so as not to be fragile) which may be at odds with the build author's intent. If you're presenting an Elf character that you think should be viable in melee combat, listing an adamantine longsword as necessary gear (longsword because its a racial proficiency; adamantine as protection against sundering) clearly communicates that. Failing to list that gear could mean either (1) that the character has no viability in melee, or (2) that you expect the judges to magically share your assumptions that of course there's a way, with the right equipment, to make that work. Venger's "no gear listed" approach invites unhappiness in judging, with these issues being brought up as disputes rather than being clear in the builds.

in rounds past, I haven't neglected to list gear out of laziness, as you said earlier, but out of a desire to avoid unfair punishment from judges. now that we are being penalized for not listing gear as well, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't type scenario, hence my dissatisfaction.



A Belt of Magnificence +6 is within the budget of 20th-level characters, and useful to the majority of them. For most of them that would be optional equipment, which doesn't need to be listed. Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 used to acquire Power Attack at a convenient level (before Strength is boosted from 12 to 13 at the next increment) would be necessary equipment, probably well within the character's budget. If a judge thinks that relying on that piece of equipment for a level or two is unconscionable, but shuffling feats with Psychic Reformation is fine, I believe we've got an attitude problem related to gear listings.
I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here. no one is suggesting judges need to assume everyone has a belt of magnificence on at all times

using psyref/dcfs is disallowed in iron chef. while not explicitly outlined in the opening post, these kinds of TO tricks will invite low scoring from judges for not being in the spirit of the contest.

in a way it kind of goes back to the problem we're having with equipment. if it were allowed, we'd all be gray elves with a bunch of free feats and say "okay so DCFS this, and then you have good feats." it's the same reason we're not, as the contest rules currently stand, obligated to provide an exhaustive equipment list. it's a waste of time for the judges, chefs, and chair.

no one is saying "psyref/dcfs is fine, but mentioning equipment is not fine."

I do agree that if a judge, unlike yourself, is pro-CWar, that they should make that explicitly clear in their judging criteria so chefs know exactly how that judge will be ruling qualifications.


Er, in case it was unclear, I'm not advocating for full equipment lists; I'm advocating against "do not list equipment at all" as an official policy or pervasive rule of thumb.

Curmudgeon, I think I'm just comfortable with somewhat more assumptions than you are. If I see a build with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and no Improved Unarmed Strike, I feel pretty confident that they're planning on fighting with a two-handed melee weapon. Judging their build on the basis of its ability to fight with its fists, just because their write-up didn't get to mentioning that they planned on using a greatsword (and would suck without one), seems like it's just going to miss the point, rather than increase the accuracy of my assessment of their build's quality.

okay. I too would like to find some kind of happy medium, but I am against "if you don't mention basic equipment like a weapon and armor I assume you are unarmed and naked."

I agree with your assessment, and this is the kind of willfull misreading I'm not okay with. if a wizard-based dish doesn't say "I seek out these spells" would you say "you didn't say you have spells, so I'm judging you as though you didn't have spells" ? I don't think so.

[Curmudgeon]

in past rounds, even mentioning one optional piece of equipment you can pull off a neat trick with has resulted in penalties for being "item-reliant," so chefs have erred on the side of caution and omitted references to equipment altogether.
I'm fairly new to Iron Chef, so I'm not carrying that historical baggage with me. I did try to be explicit about what I thought was necessary to present a build with adequate clarity.

Given that judges mostly create their own standards, it's probably going to be impossible to make them all happy. I think if I've posted my criteria long before builds are due, and follow those criteria consistently in judging, I've done a reasonable job.

[Venger]

I'm fairly new to Iron Chef, so I'm not carrying that historical baggage with me. I did try to be explicit about what I thought was necessary to present a build with adequate clarity.

Given that judges mostly create their own standards, it's probably going to be impossible to make them all happy. I think if I've posted my criteria long before builds are due, and follow those criteria consistently in judging, I've done a reasonable job.

ok, I'm not. I was sharing historical context of the contest because it was relevant to the discussion, I wouldn't call it baggage.

if you were going to assume everyone had no equipment at all if they didn't explicitly mention it, I wish you had been more clear, that chefs might have prepared for it. especially since it would've been a comparatively easy fix, and wouldn't have changed anyones actual builds (which is why as it stands, equipment is not part of how we are evaluated, which was all I was making clear earlier)

no one is saying you didn't apply your criteria consistently to all dishes. you certainly did that. the issue is whether those criteria are in keeping with how judges are allowed to evaluate according to the contest rules.

I think we've all gotten our points out in the open. we'll wait for a ruling.

[Heliomance]

Regarding equipment: I've not made an official ruling on this before. I have, however, warned people who PM'd me for advice that generally equipment isn't given that much weight, and generally judges frown on being too item dependent. I propose the following addition to the FAQs:


Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armour, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favourably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

Regarding "Use it, link it": My intention when writing that rule was in relation to online-only content, not to the SRD. That said, I can see how it would be useful to a judge, and as long as it's spelled out clearly in the criteria (more clearly than it was this time, preferably), I'm okay with it. I'm less okay with people being required to link things from web enhancements and excerpts that were also printed in books, because not everyone knows that such-and-such a class also appears online. (Evidence: I wrote such-and-such a class because I couldn't remember any of said classes off the top of my head)

[Venger]

Regarding equipment: I've not made an official ruling on this before. I have, however, warned people who PM'd me for advice that generally equipment isn't given that much weight, and generally judges frown on being too item dependent. I propose the following addition to the FAQs:

Regarding "Use it, link it": My intention when writing that rule was in relation to online-only content, not to the SRD. That said, I can see how it would be useful to a judge, and as long as it's spelled out clearly in the criteria (more clearly than it was this time, preferably), I'm okay with it. I'm less okay with people being required to link things from web enhancements and excerpts that were also printed in books, because not everyone knows that such-and-such a class also appears online. (Evidence: I wrote such-and-such a class because I couldn't remember any of said classes off the top of my head)

thank you very much, heliomance. I think that FAQ should please everybody. I assume it also applies to this round.

an example of that might be nar demonbinder. while it exists online, I certainly don't think a judge should be allowed to penalize a chef who said "sources: nar demonbinder (unapproachable east)"

[Heliomance]

Please note also the following change to the contest rules which I've just remembered I implemented in Home Cooking III and then never transferred to the main thread. I've copied it into the OP here mostly so I don't forget about it when I make the next thread. This change should not affect judging this round.

Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a "sweet spot" of their choosing that represents what they believe to be the high point of the build. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

[Darrin]

Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a "sweet spot" of their choosing that represents what they believe to be the high point of the build. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

Forgive me for being dense, but what is the absolute minimum number of level write-ups? The previous criteria was to provide a write-up for 'at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build'. So previously, you'd need a 20-level build and at least one write-up at a lower level, ideally just the "sweet spot" level.

The new requirement is a 20-level build and at least four snap-shots?

[Heliomance]

Forgive me for being dense, but what is the absolute minimum number of level write-ups? The previous criteria was to provide a write-up for 'at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build'. So previously, you'd need a 20-level build and at least one write-up at a lower level, ideally just the "sweet spot" level.

The new requirement is a 20-level build and at least four snap-shots?

The requirement is a 20th level build and enough description to show how it plays all through its career. The suggested format for doing this is four snapshots, but you can do something different if you can do so and still impart the required information.

[Venger]

Forgive me for being dense, but what is the absolute minimum number of level write-ups? The previous criteria was to provide a write-up for 'at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build'. So previously, you'd need a 20-level build and at least one write-up at a lower level, ideally just the "sweet spot" level.

The new requirement is a 20-level build and at least four snap-shots?

it is an unspoken rule that you provide snapshots at 5/10/15/20. while you're not required by the rules to do this, historically ingredients that don't are penalized, so it's probably easier to conform to these guidelines if you're thinking about cooking in the future. it's rare for someone to diverge from these guidelines (or in this instance, ignore them entirely)

[Deadline]

I see that the chairwoman has already made a ruling, and it looks good to me. If I had to read through umpteen equipment lists as well as their builds, I'd go positively gibbering mad. Yes, I get that you use a shiny melee weapon. I don't need to know how shiny it is. If you use a stat enhancing item to qualify for a feat, you need to mention that (and you will get dinged for item dependent power). If you have a neat, optional trick with an item, mention that too. If the SI calls for you to build an item, again do so. But otherwise leave it off or stick it in an "optional" spoiler.

[Venger]

I see that the chairwoman has already made a ruling, and it looks good to me. If I had to read through umpteen equipment lists as well as their builds, I'd go positively gibbering mad. Yes, I get that you use a shiny melee weapon. I don't need to know how shiny it is. If you use a stat enhancing item to qualify for a feat, you need to mention that (and you will get dinged for item dependent power). If you have a neat, optional trick with an item, mention that too. If the SI calls for you to build an item, again do so. But otherwise leave it off or stick it in an "optional" spoiler.

sounds fair to me as far as your pov. I take it that if you judge in the future, you'll make these expectations clear in your criteria. assuming that, I don't foresee any problems.

[OMG PONIES]

Man alive, for a contest that "doesn't talk about equipment" we're spending an awful lot of time talking about equipment :smalltongue:.


Mentioning any equipment will result in a penalty for being "item-reliant,"

I was curious to see if mentioning items knocked builds out of contention to win, so I checked the spreadsheet and some old threads. In the first 30 rounds, 87% of gold medal entries had equipment listings. In the 38 rounds since, that has dropped to 44%. I'll leave questions of causality to others.

This may be a bit of an increased reaction from a vein of judging I think I started. Back in Round XXXVIII, I introduced my new criteria which included "Does the entry place an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other 'add-ons' for its power?" Since then, I've seen other judges follow suit. Of course, the definition of an "undue emphasis" is somewhat morphic, and admittedly I have been too harsh on it sometimes and too lax other times. It may have been a reaction on my part to the olden days when every entry had a tome and a belt of magnificence, but that's no excuse for making folks feel like they're better off excluding items. Going forward, I'm going to try "Does the entry thrive with or without requiring specific magic items, templates, or other 'add-ons?'" That way, judges can go without gear or list any gear that adds particularly cool tricks, as long as the build doesn't depend on that item/template/whatever to exist.


I don't make any presumptions. Characters get one set of clothing and whatever is stated as class features (a spellbook for Wizards, katana and wakizashi for OA Samurai). Beyond that, they've got what's stated by the build author.

By that logic, I suggest that all characters should receive complete minimum scores. Since none of their authors listed any food, they all die of starvation long before hitting level 20 :smalltongue:.


Given that judges mostly create their own standards, it's probably going to be impossible to make them all happy. I think if I've posted my criteria long before builds are due, and follow those criteria consistently in judging, I've done a reasonable job.

Hear, hear!

Standings after Two Judges
EntryPlaceTotalAverage
Fang XueGold27.753.46875
Shiba DaisukeSilver26.753.34375
Iron BearBronze22.252.78125
Shiba SanjuuFourth182.25
Fletcher's FlameFifth13.751.71875
Sam UraiSixth131.625

[dysprosium]

If I may share my thoughts on this whole latest rigamaroll . . .

First thank you Curmudgeon for judging. Some people are not going to agree with it. Indeed that's the whole point of being a judge, someone who takes a look as what was presented and what that person thinks of it. Are they tough? Yes, but like Curmudgeon has done for judging Zinc Saucier rounds, his judgments are consistent across the board. Consistency is something that I think we can all agree on as being a good trait for judging.

Equipment: I know it's been said already but what really is the point of listing equipment. I believe that there has to be some assumptions as to what an entry may or may not have. We have to remember that not everyone plays the same game here--meaning that certain tables are going to be harsh in giving out items where in others, every character gets a Green Lantern Ring and does whatever they want.

My understanding of the point of making these builds/characters in the first place is to show off what tricks they can do without items. Take a look at Tempest Stormwind and Company builds on the WotC boards. Not a single one of those showcases depend upon needing a single piece of equipment. Those builds mention at the end what standard 20th level WBL would bring to the table but the builds themselves are pretty solid without.

Part of the reliance thing I think stems from entries in the past assuming that stat boosting items are going to be the norm. From my own experience in playing, this is not necessarily the place. So a Wizard character with a listed 14 Intelligence starts talking about when they get 9th level spells we have to scratch our heads. That character is depending their entire playable life on getting tomes or headbands of intellect in order to function.

This is supposed to be an optimization style contest. If the build depends upon having certain things happen at certain times that may or may not happen at all tables, then that build is not going to do as well as a build that can exist in a no magic world. When I judge for example I note if a build needs something in order to function just like I was saying. Does the build need to wear that armor that grants the Mobility feat to meet the SI feat requirement? You have to be kidding yourself if you think that the build that needs the armor is going to score higher than the build that does not. The armor needing build is just one encounter away from losing all of their class features. How optimized is that really?

Linking of Sources: Honestly I thought that pertained to just the old WotC articles. Plus the way I have always listed sources is what is not from the SRD/PHB. I always imagined that everyone in the Playground may not be able to quote or reference every page number for every feat or class feature, but really doesn't everyone know what basic things come from the Player's Handbook?

And I would imagine that just being on the Playground here means that all of us have some kind of access to the internet. How hard really is it to open a second tab to the SRD and take a look at things? Mac users may have more difficulty. I don't know since I am a PC user exclusively.

Snapshots: I always thought this was just a guidance more than a rule. Looking back at my own entry history, I didn't actually start medaling until I went away from the 5/10/15/20 snapshots. I know that when I judge I'm not looking for what the character did between Levels 1 and 5. Is it appreciated when it is presented? Yes. Is it a necessary thing? To me, no. I have awarded high marks to builds that did not have snapshots and have likewise slammed builds that did have snapshots. I hope I didn't just give away my entry with this little tidbit.


I know some will agree with me and some will disagree with me. That is a fact. That is how life goes.

I know that I am building characters that I am proud of and would want to use at one of my tables. I also know that I am as competitive as anyone else too. As long as I am putting forward my best effect when a contestant or a judge, I will be happy with my results. My builds are better now than when I first started participating in Iron Chef (back in Bladesinger). Taking the judgings and building upon those results has made my own enjoyment of building of characters grow. Both A_S and Curmudgeon have mentioned things in their judgments that will make my building of characters even better for next time. I would say what exactly, but that would give me away. :smallwink:

[Venger]

fortunately, heliomance has put the issue to bed with a ruling, so it's moot, but I guess we have to talk about something until the reveal :smallsmile


Equipment: I know it's been said already but what really is the point of listing equipment. I believe that there has to be some assumptions as to what an entry may or may not have. We have to remember that not everyone plays the same game here--meaning that certain tables are going to be harsh in giving out items where in others, every character gets a Green Lantern Ring and does whatever they want.
precisely the reason why heliomance ruled we don't have to talk about equipment. there's no real standard as far as dming goes, so this would otherwise be an issue.


My understanding of the point of making these builds/characters in the first place is to show off what tricks they can do without items. Take a look at Tempest Stormwind and Company builds on the WotC boards. Not a single one of those showcases depend upon needing a single piece of equipment. Those builds mention at the end what standard 20th level WBL would bring to the table but the builds themselves are pretty solid without.
while I agree to a certain extent that yes, the point of the contest is the build (and not toys you buy) some builds (like melee/mundanes) just plain need equipment more, especially in an item-focused class like kensai or annointed knight. fortunately, discussing this kind of equipment is now optional (not mandatory) and won't rely in penalization.


Part of the reliance thing I think stems from entries in the past assuming that stat boosting items are going to be the norm. From my own experience in playing, this is not necessarily the place. So a Wizard character with a listed 14 Intelligence starts talking about when they get 9th level spells we have to scratch our heads. That character is depending their entire playable life on getting tomes or headbands of intellect in order to function.

this seems disingenuous to me. are you seriously suggesting that a spellcasting character would not spend some small fraction of his WBL boosting his primary class feature so he can meet the basic competence of being able to cast all his spells on time? fortunately this absolutely falls under the umbrella of "generic gear" as explicitly outlined by heliomance, so we can no longer be penalized for the assumption that yes, we want our wizards to actually be able to cast spells.


This is supposed to be an optimization style contest. If the build depends upon having certain things happen at certain times that may or may not happen at all tables, then that build is not going to do as well as a build that can exist in a no magic world. When I judge for example I note if a build needs something in order to function just like I was saying. Does the build need to wear that armor that grants the Mobility feat to meet the SI feat requirement? You have to be kidding yourself if you think that the build that needs the armor is going to score higher than the build that does not. The armor needing build is just one encounter away from losing all of their class features. How optimized is that really?
okay, so you are pro-CWAR. should you choose to judge in the future, if I am a chef, I would greatly appreciate you making that clear in your criteria so I know how you are tabulating who does and does not qualify.



Linking of Sources: Honestly I thought that pertained to just the old WotC articles. Plus the way I have always listed sources is what is not from the SRD/PHB. I always imagined that everyone in the Playground may not be able to quote or reference every page number for every feat or class feature, but really doesn't everyone know what basic things come from the Player's Handbook?
if you're judging in this contest, yes. fortunately, this has been dealt with as well


And I would imagine that just being on the Playground here means that all of us have some kind of access to the internet. How hard really is it to open a second tab to the SRD and take a look at things? Mac users may have more difficulty. I don't know since I am a PC user exclusively.
I'm... not sure what using a mac computer would change re: looking at the srd. when I look at a page through a web browser like chrome, it looks the same as it does on a PC computer. macs do not lack tabbed browsing, so this is not an issue.


Snapshots: I always thought this was just a guidance more than a rule. Looking back at my own entry history, I didn't actually start medaling until I went away from the 5/10/15/20 snapshots. I know that when I judge I'm not looking for what the character did between Levels 1 and 5. Is it appreciated when it is presented? Yes. Is it a necessary thing? To me, no. I have awarded high marks to builds that did not have snapshots and have likewise slammed builds that did have snapshots. I hope I didn't just give away my entry with this little tidbit.
it is. that's what the FAQ says. you don't have to do 5/10/15/20 if it doesn't work for you.

you're punishing people for not cooking like you? that doesn't seem right. do you put that in your judging criteria?




I know some will agree with me and some will disagree with me. That is a fact. That is how life goes.

I know that I am building characters that I am proud of and would want to use at one of my tables. I also know that I am as competitive as anyone else too. As long as I am putting forward my best effect when a contestant or a judge, I will be happy with my results. My builds are better now than when I first started participating in Iron Chef (back in Bladesinger). Taking the judgings and building upon those results has made my own enjoyment of building of characters grow. Both A_S and Curmudgeon have mentioned things in their judgments that will make my building of characters even better for next time. I would say what exactly, but that would give me away. :smallwink:

fortunately, that's immaterial since we have rules for these things now.

yeah, we can talk about it after the reveal. this was a very difficult ingredient to work with.

[Vaz]

So little surprise this weekend, found out I'm going to be a father not only for the first time, but to 3. She caught that bullet real good.

Oops.

But yes, that explains why there is no scores by myself yet. Hopefully should get some free time to finish tonight or tomorrow, depending how busy work is.

By the way, unless you can explain exactly how at each and evrty level you can counter every possible challenge up to and Including ECL+8 Challenge rating tests without help from other members, you will recieve a 0 across the board. Because pedantry in fun competitions is always enjoyable.

[Sian]

triplets? ... my condolences for severe lack of sleep in a couple of months:smalltongue:

[Amphetryon]

By the way, unless you can explain exactly how at each and evrty level you can counter every possible challenge up to and Including ECL+8 Challenge rating tests without help from other members, you will recieve a 0 across the board. Because pedantry in fun competitions is always enjoyable.
First you'll need to clarify what 'evrty' and 'recieve' mean, within your criteria, for much the same reasons. :smalltongue:

[dysprosium]

this seems disingenuous to me. are you seriously suggesting that a spellcasting character would not spend some small fraction of his WBL boosting his primary class feature so he can meet the basic competence of being able to cast all his spells on time? fortunately this absolutely falls under the umbrella of "generic gear" as explicitly outlined by heliomance, so we can no longer be penalized for the assumption that yes, we want our wizards to actually be able to cast spells.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that as part of an optimization process, it would be nice to know that even without gear that the build is good to go. In my example, if all of the level adjustments went to Intelligence, it wouldn't be a problem. I guess I'm saying that Magic Mart shouldn't be the answer to the build's shortcomings.

Because then the next character that I enter into one of these things is just going to get a Green Lantern ring at Level 1. If a judge says, "your build doesn't have the ability to do that," I can reply with, "(S)He sure can: Green Lantern Ring!" Oh and since it is effectively an artifact, with no listed price, I can afford it as a 1st level character!


okay, so you are pro-CWAR. should you choose to judge in the future, if I am a chef, I would greatly appreciate you making that clear in your criteria so I know how you are tabulating who does and does not qualify.

I usually don't list my judging criteria beforehand because it goes against my own personal philosophy of building a character. What I mean here is akin to what I said about when I build, I do so because I am proud of it. Not because I am trying to pander to any particular judge.

Plus I don't know if it has been said in this thread already, but I do know that it has been said in the past. No one is going to be able to satisfy every judge. What one judge thinks is fine, another is going to think is an atrocious sin to humanity. Curmudgeon and A_S both gave their judging criteria beforehand, which is their business. But honestly, I didn't read them because I was building a character for me, not them.

I'm reminded of that scene from the Rocky Horror Picture Show:

Dr Frank-N-Furter has just revealed his creation, Rocky, to everyone. Rocky is a good looking blonde muscle bound human male.
Frank: Oh, I just love success!
Riff Raff: He's a credit to your genius, Master.
Frank: Yes!
Magenta: A triumph of your will.
Frank: Yes!
Columbia: He's okay!
Frank: Okay? Okay? I think we can do better than that! Well, Brad and Janet, what do you think of him?
Janet: Well, I don't like men with too many muscles.
Audience Participation: Just one big muscle!
Frank: I didn't make him for you! He carries the Charles Atlas seal of approval!

Personally I think that if someone is buying the armor that gives him the Mobility feat to qualify for a prestige class, then he is already skirting the rules. Let's call it my own personal pet peeve: items should not provide feats in order to qualify for things. I feel the same way about the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will. I think it's lazy.

But like I said, that's just me. Though to answer your question, I will try to remember to put something in to cover this for my future judging criteria.


I'm... not sure what using a mac computer would change re: looking at the srd. when I look at a page through a web browser like chrome, it looks the same as it does on a PC computer. macs do not lack tabbed browsing, so this is not an issue.

I attribute this part of my rambling to me not editing my post before posting it like I normally do.


you're punishing people for not cooking like you? that doesn't seem right. do you put that in your judging criteria?

No. My point here was that I don't even consider the 5/10/15/20 thing when I judge. It is part of the presentation. Curmudgeon dinged those who didn't follow it. I was just saying that if we were to go back and look at how I've judged (like in an audit) then you would find that the 5/10/15/20 things never entered my decision making process.

But really though, shouldn't everyone cook like me? :smalltongue:


yeah, we can talk about it after the reveal. this was a very difficult ingredient to work with.

Indeed.

And congrats on your good news Vaz! I have three kids too. But luckily they didn't come all at once.

[OMG PONIES]

So little surprise this weekend, found out I'm going to be a father not only for the first time, but to 3. She caught that bullet real good.

Hey congrats!

[Deadline]

Congrats Vaz! The only potentially useful advice I can give you is, for the first several months, SLEEP WHEN THE BABIES ARE SLEEPING. You won't get a chance otherwise. Also, get used to sleeping two-three hours at a time.

My youngest just turned 5 this weekend, so I've got a whole new set of fun and trouble. :smalltongue:

[Bucky]

Curmudgeon I should point out that Fang Xue et. al. easily have the means to use untrained Crafting to make a Club or Quarterstaff, a Sling and (possibly requiring a couple of days) sling bullets. This doesn't need to be part of the build; most sensible players would do so if they were dropped into a level 20 game with the character sheet and no items or gold.

(Disclaimer: I am not the author of any affected builds; I did not submit any builds this round)

I also feels like Curmudgeon overweights the power of a build at level 20, as opposed to its sweet spot, particularly in the case of the 20th level being illegal for some reason. But I don't expect this criticism to affect his judging this round.

[Venger]

@Bucky

disputes are done privately by PMing your query to the chair. while I'm sure that chef appreciates your concern on their behalf, please edit your post so Curmudgeon doesn't think that chef is the one calling him out in public. in any event, heliomance has already ruled that that is in fact the case, so there's no need to dispute.

[sakuuya]

Congratulations, Vaz! Be sure to let us know when they're born so we can try to convince you to name your little ones after the round winners. It worked out really well for my daughter, Lawrence "Curly" Andmo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753303&postcount=315).

(She's one today, and I don't know what's harder to believe, that she was born a year ago or that the Spellsword round is that old...)

[OMG PONIES]

Congratulations, Vaz! Be sure to let us know when they're born so we can try to convince you to name your little ones after the round winners. It worked out really well for my daughter, Lawrence "Curly" Andmo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753303&postcount=315).

(She's one today, and I don't know what's harder to believe, that she was born a year ago or that the Spellsword round is that old...)

And now I can die happy. :smalltongue:

[Sian]

And now I can die happy. :smalltongue:

Is that a request? :smalltongue:

[OMG PONIES]

Is that a request? :smalltongue:

For more people to name their children after my D&D characters? It sure is. :smallbiggrin:

[Sian]

For more people to name their children after my D&D characters? It sure is. :smallbiggrin:

no ... the 'dying' part :smallwink:

[OMG PONIES]

My Criteria
All builds will start with a base score of 12, representing 3 points in each category. Those category scores will change based on my answers to a series of questions, presented below. An answer of "Yes" will earn a +0.5 boost to that category, an answer of "No" will earn a -0.5 penalty to that category, while an ambivalent "Yes and no" will not change the score of that category at all. Thus, it is possible for a build to score anywhere between 1 and 5 points in each category. The questions are as follow:

Originality
Does the build present a compelling backstory or concept?
Does the build enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the build make use of any race, class, feats, or mechanical tricks that the judge hasn't seen in use before?
Does the build avoid "known cheese" and overused optimization suggestions?

Power
Does the build utilize established power breakpoints and feat taxes for all classes and prestige classes taken?
Does the build function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers?
Does the build thrive without requiring specific magic items, templates, or other "add-ons" to qualify for anything?
Does the build contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility?

Elegance
Does the build qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the build qualify for all feats taken?
Does the build avoid any questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the build avoid multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (defined as taking 2 or less levels in 2 or more base/prestige classes)?

Use of the Secret Ingredient
Does the build qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the build complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the build pair mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build in unique ways (e.g. do something not every other entry can do)?
Does the build complement the concept of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?


My Scores

Sam Urai: 13 (3.25 average)Originality: 2.5 While you mentioned the Phoenix clan and layed out your class progression, it wasn't much of a glimpse into your character aside from the orphan trope (-0.5). No penalty for human here, but unfortunately your class levels were rather cookie cutter. OA Samurai was the heavy favorite this round, and you weren't the only triple samurai in competition (0). No race, class, feats, or tricks were new for me (-0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 3.5 You exited both samurai base classes at respectable points, but Master Samurai may have been better served by going to level 4. Granted, you spent most of your career qualifying for it, but still.. (0). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you've got 4 iteratives and bonus damage from Power Attack, No Thought, and Iajutsu Focus, but I would have liked to see a bit more pizzazz. Defensively, Combat Expertise alone isn't enough to carry you. In terms of utility, Intimidate, Ride, and Tumble are maxed but there's not much more you can do (-0.5).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). No sources were provided. Aside from that, nothing of concern was presented (0). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Without a write-up specifying how the build uses the mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient, I can't give you a bonus here (-0.5). Without a strong concept or backstory, it is impossible to tell if the Secret Ingredient complements it (-0.5).
Fang Xue: 15.5 (3.875 average)Originality: 3.5 I really like the animistic flavor you added to the fluff of pact magic (0.5). No penalties for using human here, but by picking up binder you're able to stand out from a mostly melee competitive field (0.5). While I like your idea of using Insane Defiance offensively, I suggested that with Maxwell the Mad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10948096&postcount=34) in our Iron Chef Appetizer edition (0). Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command is suggested frequently because it's powerful, but that doesn't change the fact that it's suggested frequently (-0.5).Power: 3.5 Binder 10 with pact binding is enough to snag 6th-level vestiges and a 3rd pact augmentation, which is as good a time as any to leave the class (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). Your main power source comes from using Naberius to heal away the stat damage of Insane Defiance or Chosen of Evil, but in your write-up at higher levels you've abandoned Naberius. Without his ability healing, you're putting yourself in harm's way. I'm afraid that's an undue emphasis on a class feature you won't be using frequently (-0.5). Offensively, Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered are a great start, but your offensive power lags against any enemies immune to fear. Defensively, Insane Defiance, Slippery Mind, et al contribute nicely to shore up your mental defenses but you don't have many other defensive options. In terms of utility, you've got the world at your fingertips through vestiges but lack the ability to switch them on the fly. Chosen of Evil can give you a +2 to life, but it needed more vile feats to power it; with Luxx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084470&postcount=277) in round XLIX I was able to boost the bonus to a +8. I know it causes Elegance concerns, but perhaps going LE and swearing yourself to an Elder Evil could net you some quick Vile feats for free. Just keep Naberius bound to heal that ability damage, and you can spam Chosen of Evil all day long. Overall, the answer to each of the 3 categories is "almost," so I can't award a full bonus here (0).Elegance: 5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). While you made mention of the Secret Ingredient's mechanical features, nothing was highlighted that every other entry can't do with Shiba Protector. The level of detail you provided about your Naberius/Insane Defiance/Chosen of Evil combo is what I was looking for on Shiba Protector's features as well (-0.5). The flavor of the ancestral vestige binder pairing with the elemental magicians of old was a nice pairing, and showed me how one could serve as a protector of the other. The Shiba Protector has a bit more of a melee/mystical feel, which the binder plays off of nicely (0.5).
Shiba Daisuke: 15.5 (3.875 average)Originality: 4 The Asian feudalism combined nicely with the Rokugan fluff, and I liked the introductory scene of the protector and his shugenja as children. Also, how can I not give a bonus for fluff to someone who invests skill ranks in performing a proper tea ceremony? (0.5). No penalty for human here. Instead, the penalty comes from having the dubious distinction of OA Samurai AND Devoted Defender in your build, the two classes used most by your competitors. The tiny splash of Crusader was different enough from Iron Bear to have little effect, and I liked the appearance of Iajutsu master, but it wasn't enough to stand out. If only you had been able to focus more on Iajutsu master and avoid some of the repeat classes.. (-0.5). Riposte & Deceptive Dodge were new for me, but the stars of the show were your Iajutsu Focus/Quick Draw/Cursed Katana & Deceptive Dodge/Iron Guard's Glare/Harm's Way shenanigans. Well played (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 4.5 You respect established breakpoints for your base classes, but not for your prestige classes. Iajutsu Master 5 could have given you a significant boost to your Iajutsu Focus damage output. While Devoted Defender 3 offers some nifty defensive tricks, you're really only in it for Harm's Way. Perhaps OA Samurai 4/Crusader 1/Shiba Protector 9/Devoted Defender 1/Iajutsu Master 5 would have worked better for your purposes (0). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you maintain four iterative attacks and No Thought + Iajutsu Focus damage with a focus on ways to apply it as well as a few ways to pick up unexpected AoOs. Defensively, your crusader dip and Devoted Defender really help you play the role of the bodyguard. In terms of utility, Diplomacy & Sense Motive were two of the most important skills to acquire. Your smatterings of Spellcraft & Spot can also come in handy as well, so an overall smart investment in skills nets you the triple crown here (0.5).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). While multiclass penalties were avoided, the two dips may be too much for some people. I appreciate that this was addressed in your design notes, but it still stands as a possible pain point so I can't give a full bonus here (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). While I appreciate your mention of the mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient, you do not highlight any specific uses that cannot be done by every other entry (-0.5). I get that Daisuke had sworn an oath to protect the good lady isawa, but that didn't necessarily scream Shiba Protector to me. Why not take on more Devoted Defender? (-0.5).
Fletcher's Flame: 14 (3.5 average)Originality: 3.5 While it did not have the same feudal airs as the previous Devoted Defender, I also liked this connection formed out of friendship (0.5). No penalty for human here, and hexblade and swordsage were nice standouts this round. You barely missed getting a bonus here, but since Devoted Defender was everyone's go-to prestige class this round, it keeps you in the territory of "no bonus, no deduction" (0). No race, class, feats, or tricks were new for me (-0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 3.5 Hexblade and Devoted Defender were exited at established breakpoints, and I really respect your staggering of swordsage levels to maintain access to higher level maneuvers late in the game (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). Without a CHA-boosting item, you're not getting much gain out of your hexblade levels. It would have been nice to see a different stat distribution that actually allowed you a bonus here. You mention it yourself--Anna can't even cast her hexblade spells without a stat-boosting item. Also, I'm not sure that the rat familiar was a better pick than the oft-suggested Dark Companion at Hexblade 4 from PHB II for lowering enemy saves. (-0.5). Offensively, you've got WIS to damage a few times over, a maneuver to let you engage w/ flyers (even 1/encounter helps), and a good crit boost between your increased crit range + blood in the water. Defensively, swordsage maneuvers significantly boost your abilities, and you're boosting your saves nicely along with mettle. In terms of utility, though, I would have liked to see a little more out of Anna. Iajutsu Focus and Tumble are great skills in combat, but I would have liked to see some social or scouting ability as well (0).Elegance: 4 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Not to split hairs, but you need to specify what weapon you're selecting Improved Critical for. Without selecting one, you're leaving it to the judges to assume (0). It's a minor thing, but Shiba Protector's capstone specifically lists what you can switch ability mods on…and Arcane Resistance ain't one of them (0). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3 The build fails to qualify for the Secret Ingredient, as Anna doesn't have any ranks in Knowledge: religion (-0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Hexblade's Arcane Resistance + Dancing with the Elements would have been a nice pairing…IF you had a bonus from Arcane Resistance. Mettle does pair nicely with Dancing with the Elements, though. No Thought + Swordsage Insightful Strike is a nice pairing for 2xWIS to damage, though. I like what you tried to do with the capstone ability re-activating your Arcane Resistance bonus, but see Elegance above. All said, you tried to highlight unique pairings even though some of them did not connect, so while it doesn't earn a full bonus it's not a deduction here either. I really respect the attempt (0). I get that Anna had sworn an oath to protect Fletcher, but that didn't necessarily scream Shiba Protector to me. Why not take on more Devoted Defender? (0).
Iron Bear: 16 (4 average)Originality: 4 While I love the "sworn protector" vibe of some of the other builds, the "curmudgeonly grandfather" vibe of Iron Bear really struck a unique chord. It reminded me a bit of my own grandfather, stern but paternal WWII vet, sharing terse advice around the campfire (0.5). I was excited to see someone go with an azurin and some levels in incarnate--both were a breath of fresh air this round. Crusader was repeated, but the other build that used it only had a splash so it was different enough. Just like with Fletcher's Flame, it was that irresistable Devoted Defender that kept you from getting a full bonus for standing out (0). Spellcaster Support was a new feat for me, and it matched lockstep with this build (0.5). White Raven Tactics is a great maneuver so I get why you'd select it, but when there are multiple threads devoted to arguments over how it works, I'm sure some would call it "known cheese" (0).Power: 4.5 While established breakpoints were taken in terms of sheer number of levels, staggering Crusader levels later in the build could have helped shore up higher level maneuvers without spending feats on them (0). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers. That's the beauty of both Tome of Battle classes and Incarnum classes (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you maintain four iterative attacks and various sources of bonus damage along with ways to snag some extra AoOs. Defensively, your maneuvers and soulmelds give you some options. Speaking of options, meldshaping gives you huge versatility from a utility standpoint. Even without maxed out skill ranks, you've earned yourself a triple crown (0.5).Elegance: 3 You qualify for Devoted Defender…as long as you keep your Soulspark Familiar shaped and alive. But if it goes away, expect an argument with your DM (0). I hate to be pedantic, but please be sure to list the proper name for all feats taken. For example, Iron Bear has Martial Study (Wall of Blades), rather than Martial Maneuver (Wall of Blades) (0). Please be sure to read all class features carefully. Devoted Defender's "Deflect Attack" is not based on an opposed Attack Roll, but a flat DC 20 Reflex save. No more questionable things are presented, but I can't award a full bonus to a build that misunderstands how its own class features function (0). Excessive dipping is avoided, but since Azurins have Soulborn as their favored class, you'll incur multiclass penalties in a game that enforces that rule (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and snags Alertness for free via Soulspark Familiar. However, if your familiar is ever killed or unshaped, expect an argument with your DM (as above for Devoted Defender) (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). I like the attention paid to saves via Dancing with the Elements+soulmelds+Zealous Surge & One with All & Nothing + Zealous Surge + Aura of Perfect Order. Also, One with Nothing+Martial Spirit was a nice way to reap a unique benefit from the extra attacks of that class feature. No Thought + Wall of Blades+Aura of Perfect Order turns an offensive ability to a defense booster as well. My personal favorite, though, was Spellcaster Support + Aid Shugenja; not only does it increase the shugenja's CL to get more oomph out of Empowering/Maximizing their spells, but making the need to cast defensively go away just FEELS like what a "spellcaster protector" class should have baked in. Thank you for paying attention to making sure that Iron Bear can do something unique with these mechanical abilities (0.5). The Shiba Protector is about more than just keeping the shugenja alive; it is also about making them a better caster, and this is something that Iron Bear captures beautifully through both mechanics and story (0.5).
Shiba Sanjuu: 15 (3.75 average)Originality: 4.5 …and IIIIIII, will always love Yoooouu…Okay, nobody wants to hear me sing. Seriously, I dug the "bodyguard in love with his charge" revelation of your backstory, as well as her father's reaction (0.5). No penalty for human here, and I was surprised you were the only one who used fighter levels. However, the OA samurai was the heavy favorite class this round and you weren't the only triple-samurai in competition (0). The glyph seal trick you used was a really snazzy way to give a non-spellcaster some spell support without UMD. However, I really liked it because it gives us an option for an effect similar to glyph of warding, but with positive effects in the spell glyphs as well (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 4 Power breakpoints are followed for all classes and prestige classes. While I'm not wild about CW Samurai even making an appearance, nothing more would have been gained by OA Samurai or Fighter being taken to 3 and you provided some thoughtful commentary on a level of ranger. I actually think that build would have brought even more to the table (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you've got plenty of attacks as well as ways to layer on some tasty bonus damage. Defensively, it seems like you're operating under the idea that "the best defense is a good offense," as you don't have many unique ways to boost your defenses outside what the Secret Ingredient grants. In terms of utility, you've got a smattering of various skills, but don't really focus enough on anything outside of combat (-0.5).Elegance: 3.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). I'm counting a 36-point buy (10 points for 16 STR, 6 points for 14 DEX, 4 points for 12 CON, 6 points for 14 INT, 10 points for 16 WIS, 0 points for 8 CHA); here in this competition we use 32-point buy. Also, please take note that while you mention empowering/maximizing fires of purity, that spell was updated in Spell Compendium to deal a flat 1 fire damage/CL, so it can no longer be empowered or maximized (-0.5). While we avoid multiclass penalties, you're suggesting a total of 4 dips (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Two-Weapon Fighting paired nicely with One with Nothing to continue adding attacks to Sanjuu's routine in combat. However, the real star here was Aid Shugenja + Glyph Seals, as it provides Sanjuu with some ability to cast spells himself. However, while the other class features were mentioned, none of them had the same unique pairings as these two. I would have liked to see a little more attention to some of the other class features like you paid to One with Nothing and Aid Shugenja (0). When you mention that you sweet spots are before you take the SI and once it's mostly done, it's instinctively going to raise the question of why we're using the Secret Ingredient at all here. Instead, it left me wondering if perhaps more Master Samurai (weak as it is after level 4) or, more likely, more Exotic Weapon Master and perhaps some Kensai would have helped your concept, which seemed to be more about wielding two katanas than anything specific to Shiba Protector (-0.5).

Standings After Three Judges
EntryPlaceTotalAverage
Fang XueGold43.253.604166667
Shiba DaisukeSilver42.253.520833333
Iron BearBronze38.253.1875
Shiba SanjuuFourth332.75
Fletcher's FlameFifth27.752.3125
Sam UraiSixth262.166666667

I'd like to give my Honorable mention vote to Shiba Sanjuu, as I really dug his Aid Shugenja + Glyph Seal trick!

[Venger]

Thank you very much for excellent judging as always. No disputes from me.

[dysprosium]

Thanks for judging Ponies!

I am one of those "if it ain't broke don't fix it" kind of guys. Though I can't speak for everyone, I would certainly guess that the vast majority of Playgrounders do not have a problem with your judging style.

However since you brought it up in your previous posts and I am just too nosycurious for my own good, did you line these up against your proposed criteria?

[Venger]

Thanks for judging Ponies!

I am one of those "if it ain't broke don't fix it" kind of guys. Though I can't speak for everyone, I would certainly guess that the vast majority of Playgrounders do not have a problem with your judging style.

However since you brought it up in your previous posts and I am just too nosycurious for my own good, did you line these up against your proposed criteria?

What good could come of this? :smalltongue:

Seriously though he's been nice enough to judge once already. Maybe if we're going to do this it could wait till after the reveal

[dysprosium]

What good could come of this? :smalltongue:

Seriously though he's been nice enough to judge once already. Maybe if we're going to do this it could wait till after the reveal

I did say I was too nosy for my own good.

I really wasn't trying to start anything. I thought there was a side by side analysis going on.

But you're right. No good could come of this.


I do want to say thank you to all of our judges! When was the last time we had three?

[Venger]

I did say I was too nosy for my own good.

I really wasn't trying to start anything. I thought there was a side by side analysis going on.

But you're right. No good could come of this.


I do want to say thank you to all of our judges! When was the last time we had three?

Thanks for listening. I really appreciate it.

In answer to your question we need only check ponies wonderful iron chef archive. The last round with three judges was the incomparably worthless witchborn binder

[Sian]

side question ... which round had the highest Judges to Dishes value?

[dysprosium]

Witchborn Binder was the last round I actually got to compete in and we got three judges.

I got to compete in this one and we got three judges.

Clearly the Demon Real Life must find a way to allow me to compete in order for us to have multiple judges!

[Darrin]

Thank you very much for excellent judging as always. No disputes from me.

Same here. You've restored my faith in humanity. Or equinity. Or maybe both.

[Venger]

side question ... which round had the highest Judges to Dishes value?
Disciple of ego the true naming one. Five dishes I think it had two or three judges. The sheet is down


Witchborn Binder was the last round I actually got to compete in and we got three judges.

I got to compete in this one and we got three judges.

Clearly the Demon Real Life must find a way to allow me to compete in order for us to have multiple judges!

Now that's magical thinking

[Heliomance]

Woo, three judges in! Pretty sure that's everyone that's going to judge, so unless people want some time for disputes, I could close it there to give you a head start on the next contest. Opinions on a postcard!

[Venger]

Woo, three judges in! Pretty sure that's everyone that's going to judge, so unless people want some time for disputes, I could close it there to give you a head start on the next contest. Opinions on a postcard!

I'm all for closing it. Can't wait to see what's next and would definitely appreciate a head start. It's independence day weekend here so I'd love to to spend it cooking

[The Viscount]

I've got no disputes. Extra cooking time sounds great.

[Darrin]

Woo, three judges in! Pretty sure that's everyone that's going to judge, so unless people want some time for disputes, I could close it there to give you a head start on the next contest. Opinions on a postcard!

Technically, Vaz said he was still judging so... not sure how far he got before the whole "Triplets?" thing. But at this point I'm not sure a fourth judge would affect the rankings all that much.

[Amphetryon]

No dog in this fight, but I'm all for moving on to the next round.

[Curmudgeon]

But at this point I'm not sure a fourth judge would affect the rankings all that much.
There's only 1 total point separating 1st and 2nd places with 3 judges' totals; that's too close to say another judge wouldn't make a difference.

[Venger]

well, it looks like all the chefs have weighed in, and there are no disputes. let's move on

[Heliomance]

I think we need word from Vaz first about whether he's still judging or not. Also it's quarter past midnight here and I have work in the morning, so I'm not doing it now :P

[samduke]

this meal is cooked and eaten.. time for the next menu item.

[OMG PONIES]

Thanks for judging Ponies!

I am one of those "if it ain't broke don't fix it" kind of guys. Though I can't speak for everyone, I would certainly guess that the vast majority of Playgrounders do not have a problem with your judging style.

However since you brought it up in your previous posts and I am just too nosycurious for my own good, did you line these up against your proposed criteria?

I did indeed. As Venger suggested, I was toying with posting it post-reveal, if at all.


Disciple of ego the true naming one. Five dishes I think it had two or three judges. The sheet is down

Sheet problem? Try again--it was just working for me.

[Venger]

Sheet problem? Try again--it was just working for me.

back up. I figured it was something on my end.

anyway, the highest judges to dishes ratio actually wasn't acolyte of the ego (the smallest round, with only five dishes)

it was actually cryokineticist, which also had five dishes and an unprecedented five judges, the largest number ever for a ratio of 1:1.

[Heliomance]

Well, it's been a day with no word from Vaz. I'll close this one down now.

Final Standings
EntryChefPlaceTotalAverage
Fang XueVengerGold43.253.604166667
Shiba DaisukedysprosiumSilver42.253.520833333
Iron BearThe ViscountBronze38.253.1875
Shiba SanjuuDarrinFourth332.75
Fletcher's FlameDarkcouchFifth27.752.3125
Sam UraisamdukeSixth262.166666667


Congratulations to Venger, dysprosium, and The Viscount for medalling, and to Darrin for honourable mention!

[Venger]

Congratulations to Venger, dysprosium, and The Viscount for medalling, and to Darrin for honourable mention!

Your accolades are greatly appreciated, thank you very much. Well done to everyone else who medaled as well. This was a real bear of a round.

[Heliomance]

Your accolades are greatly appreciated, thank you very much. Well done to everyone else who medaled as well. This was a real bear of a round.

Oh, you think this one was bad, you should see what I've chosen for the next one :evillaugh:

[The Viscount]

A real iron bear amirite?

Well done everyone. This was difficult to work with. Now that we're concluded I'd love to ask the other devoted defender chefs what their inspiration was to use what I thought not an obvious class.

[A_S]

Coolness! Congrats to Venger and the other medalists; good stuff!

[Venger]

Coolness! Congrats to Venger and the other medalists; good stuff!

Thank you very much.


Oh, you think this one was bad, you should see what I've chosen for the next one :evillaugh:
How bad could it

oh.

OH.

Well all right then.

[Darrin]

Something I wanted to clarify:



Also, please take note that while you mention empowering/maximizing fires of purity, that spell was updated in Spell Compendium to deal a flat 1 fire damage/CL, so it can no longer be empowered or maximized (-0.5).


Somehow I completely missed this (although it was not the only thing I missed in my build... got my point buy mixed up again, and flubbed the build stub). I wasn't going to dispute it, because there was no way a +0.5 was going to help my scores, but when I was looking for Shugenja spells, I don't think I even bothered with the Spell Compendium. Anyway... by RAW, the Spell Compendium version of fires of purity is *not* a Shugenja spell. I'm not entirely sure how to parse that, because I'm not sure if a subsequent sourcebook can remove a spell from a class spell list. I think there may be an argument that if there's a discrepancy between the Spell Compendium and Oriental Adventures, then OA is the primary source for Shugenja, so maybe that overrules the Spell Compendium version with regards to Shugenja?

I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to argue about this... maybe I'm just curious if I'd insisted that the OA version was still a legal spell for OA Shugenja, and the Spell Compendium version could be ignored... could I have gotten half a point back?

Finding any shugenja spells that were worth empowering/maximizing was tough. I thought I'd stumbled on a cool trick with bewildering mischance, but I didn't think any sane judges would be ok with maximizing attack rolls.

[WhamBamSam]

Is there some reason why the 1 fire damage/caster level can't be empowered? That would seem to me to be a textbook definition of a spell which could be empowered (I was thinking of mentioning it in the build I didn't finish as well).

Also, I think that either the OA or Complete Divine Shugenja spell list should hold, even if the SpC spell doesn't specify the class as one that can cast the spell. I'm not positive about that, but that's the way I've always ruled it (it's an issue that comes up now and again for Wu Jen spells that were updated in the SpC).

[Venger]

Something I wanted to clarify:

Somehow I completely missed this (although it was not the only thing I missed in my build... got my point buy mixed up again, and flubbed the build stub). I wasn't going to dispute it, because there was no way a +0.5 was going to help my scores, but when I was looking for Shugenja spells, I don't think I even bothered with the Spell Compendium. Anyway... by RAW, the Spell Compendium version of fires of purity is *not* a Shugenja spell. I'm not entirely sure how to parse that, because I'm not sure if a subsequent sourcebook can remove a spell from a class spell list. I think there may be an argument that if there's a discrepancy between the Spell Compendium and Oriental Adventures, then OA is the primary source for Shugenja, so maybe that overrules the Spell Compendium version with regards to Shugenja?
perfectly understandable because by strict RAW, SC has no shugenja spells listed in it, so you'd have no reason to look there

RAW, yes, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who actually enforced that.

SC also lists the orb of x line as wizard only, but that doesn't mean if someone rolls a warmage that a judge should say "see you talk about metamagiced orb of x, but warmages actually can't cast that"


I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to argue about this... maybe I'm just curious if I'd insisted that the OA version was still a legal spell for OA Shugenja, and the Spell Compendium version could be ignored... could I have gotten half a point back?

Finding any shugenja spells that were worth empowering/maximizing was tough. I thought I'd stumbled on a cool trick with bewildering mischance, but I didn't think any sane judges would be ok with maximizing attack rolls.
I entirely support your decision not to dispute during the round because you wouldn't have actually changed anything. thanks.

I think your basic point is valid: you're not quibbling for a medal this round, but to set a precedent for future rounds, where a half point might actually matter.


Is there some reason why the 1 fire damage/caster level can't be empowered? That would seem to me to be a textbook definition of a spell which could be empowered (I was thinking of mentioning it in the build I didn't finish as well).

Also, I think that either the OA or Complete Divine Shugenja spell list should hold, even if the SpC spell doesn't specify the class as one that can cast the spell. I'm not positive about that, but that's the way I've always ruled it (it's an issue that comes up now and again for Wu Jen spells that were updated in the SpC).
because it' not variable, it's flat. empowered requires variable, like enervation or orb of x. right, or warmage spells. that's how we've ruled it thus far, I don't really see a reason to change it.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyway... by RAW, the Spell Compendium version of fires of purity is *not* a Shugenja spell.
I don't think that's correct.
OTHER SPELLCASTING CLASSES
Spell Compendium deals exclusively with spells used by the classes and prestige classes introduced in the Player’s Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide, but even if you’re playing a different spellcasting class, you can still use this book.
...
Shugenja (Complete Divine): Add spells with strong elemental or weather themes. The druid spell list is a good place to look.
There's nothing about removing Spell Compendium spells from the Shugenja (or any other list), only a mention about what spells to add.

[Venger]

I don't think that's correct.
There's nothing about removing Spell Compendium spells from the Shugenja (or any other list), only a mention about what spells to add.

That's undoubtedly true, but what we mean is that under fires of purity, it's only listed as a druid,purification, sor/wiz spell. since SC says it supersedes everything it reprints, that's what we're unsure of re: it being taken off the shugenja list. do you mean that since that would be taking it away just ignore it?

that seems like a good solution.

[WhamBamSam]

because it' not variable, it's flat. empowered requires variable, like enervation or orb of x. right, or warmage spells. that's how we've ruled it thus far, I don't really see a reason to change it.Huh. I took "variable" to mean flat bonuses that vary based on CL or whatever rather than things that vary based on dice, because some of the other Empower feats talk about things like affecting half again as many targets, which is usually something that's CL dependent rather that dice dependent. Variable isn't in the D&D glossary, interestingly enough.

That would explain why you can't empower and maximize the same spell though.

[Curmudgeon]

since SC says it supersedes everything it reprints, that's what we're unsure of re: it being taken off the shugenja list. do you mean that since that would be taking it away just ignore it?
If you mean ignore the list, yes, that's what I mean. Spell Compendium doesn't update spell lists except for those classes in Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, so it has no way to change (add, remove, or change level) any lists from classes it doesn't mention. The spells themselves are updated generally.

[Venger]

Huh. I took "variable" to mean flat bonuses that vary based on CL or whatever rather than things that vary based on dice, because some of the other Empower feats talk about things like affecting half again as many targets, which is usually something that's CL dependent rather that dice dependent.

That would explain why you can't empower and maximize the same spell though.

nope, variable means that you roll dice to determine how many negative levels, hp, etc it deals. it affects extra targets if they are determined randomly, but not if they're flat.

you can totally maximize and empower the same spell. take orb of x, which is capped at 60 damage (barring any add-ons) if you maximize and empower, you deal 60 and then 1/2 of 10d6, which you roll normally.


If you mean ignore the list, yes, that's what I mean. Spell Compendium doesn't update spell lists except for those classes in Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, so it has no way to change (add, remove, or change level) any lists from classes it doesn't mention. The spells themselves are updated generally.

okay. thanks for clearing that up.

[WhamBamSam]

nope, variable means that you roll dice to determine how many negative levels, hp, etc it deals. it affects extra targets if they are determined randomly, but not if they're flat.

you can totally maximize and empower the same spell. take orb of x, which is capped at 60 damage (barring any add-ons) if you maximize and empower, you deal 60 and then 1/2 of 10d6, which you roll normally.Huh, alright. The more you know, I guess.

I must be thinking of different Empower/Maximize feats again. Some of them (Empower Supernatural Ability for instance) prevent the empowered thing from being maximized.