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Archpaladin Zousha
2007-04-24, 02:51 PM
I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the party that I've joined (including my involvement). While I enjoy the game, I feel that sometimes we're not being as efficient as we could be. I'd like to provide a list of the current party and a brief description of the party members, and I would greatly appreciate any advice that I can use to help their players become more solid.

Alexander Zosenheim - My character, a human diviner who is working towards Loremaster. I'm acting as a sort of a troubleshooter for the party, using spells like Enlarge Person or Grease to make fights easier. Is also the go-to man for knowledge checks.

Amara - An elven monk played by a friend of mine. Rather sensitive, doesn't appear to be moving towards any prestige classes. Has a slight problem with getting knocked out at least once in each session.

Ellywick (Elly) - A gnome cleric to Pelor. The player has some prior knowledge of the game, which she has used well. I've mentioned the Radiant Servant of Pelor, and she seems interested.

Teely - The party's rogue. Her player is an excellent role-player, though a bit annoying (which is intentional, as she is playing a Kender). Saved my character at least twice and moderately proficient in combat.

Giliana (I think that's her name) - Our elven bard. Player doesn't know the game too well, but we're helping her with that. Has spent more time stabbing than singing in my opinion, but again, a little more experience with the game will take care of that.

Pearl - A human druid, and something that has privately bothered me of late. Her player isn't at the table much of the only time and the only thing that she really did was mention that her animal companion was pregnant. The bard's player ended up using her in addition to her own character during the most important fight in the session.

Ranos and the Dwarf (his name escapes me at the moment - A human barbarian with an Ahnold Schvartzanegger accent and a pretty stereotypical dwarven fighter. They are both DMPC's and in my opinion, they are completely necessary, both for comic relief and the fact that they appear to be the only ones that are halfway competent in a fight.

My main issue is the size of the party. Having eight characters is rather tedious in a fight, and difficult to keep straight. The DMPCs don't hijack the game at all and they sort of fade into the background when we're not fighting.

What I'd like is to eventually eliminate our need for such assistance. If any of you have any advice that I can relay to any of our players I would greatly appreciate it.

storybookknight
2007-04-24, 03:00 PM
It seems your best bet would be to get the people who like combat (apparently Teely, Amara, and Gilliana) some feats, items, multiclassing, and prestige classes which would supplement those skills.

I'm sure people can suggest some things for them (snowflake wardance and war changer for the bard come immediately to mind), but there's a more important step.

Get your DM involved. Let him know you're trying to do this, so he can put things in to help out. Also, he can slowly start killing off the GMPCs. It'll be a sort of gishy party, but an effective one.

The DM can also step down encounters - it's not a difficult thing to do.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-04-24, 03:12 PM
I think I might need to be a bit clearer. The main reason Giliana's character is actually doing the fighting at all is because at the moment, her player is still a bit inexperienced with the bard class and the game in general at the moment (that fight with the ogres was only her third session). Also, something that has been bugging me of late involves my DM's use of sourcebooks. At the moment, he is somewhat stubbornly using the 3rd edition of the PHB, when I have offered to loan him my updated 3.5 book (at the moment, he's using my 3.5 DMG, and I think the 3rd edition Monster Manual (hard to tell though, since it doubles as a component for his screen)). While Teely is alright in a pinch, fighting isn't what she does best. Sneaking is. I hope my DM is understanding about these ideas, I've had a little quibble with him on the afformentioned sourcebook issue, and I think I might have accidentally rules lawyered (my character is currently under a Geas, and apparently while I'm under it's effects and dissobey it, I only heal at 1/10 the normal rate and magical healing doesn't work, which isn't in the 3.5 rules). I know a lot about how the game works, but I feel that I may be coming off as meddling, when what I really want is to help everyone else have a better time. I've been nervous about posting these kind of questions for a while.

By the way, what exactly do you mean by gishy? I know what a gish is, but how does that affect the party?

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-24, 03:13 PM
I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the party that I've joined (including my involvement). While I enjoy the game, I feel that sometimes we're not being as efficient as we could be. I'd like to provide a list of the current party and a brief description of the party members, and I would greatly appreciate any advice that I can use to help their players become more solid.

Alexander Zosenheim - My character, a human diviner who is working towards Loremaster. I'm acting as a sort of a troubleshooter for the party, using spells like Enlarge Person or Grease to make fights easier. Is also the go-to man for knowledge checks.

Sounds like you are doing exactly what you should be, just make sure you get good save or sucks each level to help the party.


Amara - An elven monk played by a friend of mine. Rather sensitive, doesn't appear to be moving towards any prestige classes. Has a slight problem with getting knocked out at least once in each session..

Monks aren't that effective at anything but surviving, and this one doesn't seem to be doing that well. I suggest one of the monk themed PrC(most books have one), thier usually ones that have Monk or Fist in the title.


Ellywick (Elly) - A gnome cleric to Pelor. The player has some prior knowledge of the game, which she has used well. I've mentioned the Radiant Servant of Pelor, and she seems interested.
If you need Combat personal, i would suggest church inqusitor, with Divine power/Rightious might. The problem is that gnomes aren't really masters of meele, so even thatn she miight not be uber.


Teely - The party's rogue. Her player is an excellent role-player, though a bit annoying (which is intentional, as she is playing a Kender). Saved my character at least twice and moderately proficient in combat.
Sounds like a player who knows what shes doing.


Giliana (I think that's her name) - Our elven bard. Player doesn't know the game too well, but we're helping her with that. Has spent more time stabbing than singing in my opinion, but again, a little more experience with the game will take care of that.
Bards are support characters. This guy is seriously damaging an already lackluster class by depriving it of its main ablity. I suggest getting her to take one of the Complete Arcane classes and try and focus on helping the party with the buffing song.


Pearl - A human druid, and something that has privately bothered me of late. Her player isn't at the table much of the only time and the only thing that she really did was mention that her animal companion was pregnant. The bard's player ended up using her in addition to her own character during the most important fight in the session.
Hmm... If the character were to be played well, this would most likely solve any combat problems that you are having. Wildshape+Natural spell= Spellcasting Meele monster. Then you consiger the animal companion.


Snip...

What I'd like is to eventually eliminate our need for such assistance. If any of you have any advice that I can relay to any of our players I would greatly appreciate it.
I listed dome suggestions, and if you are really having trouble, you could always retrain the bard or the monk to be a combat focused character (see Players handbook 2). Personally, I would suggest ToB.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-04-24, 03:23 PM
Another issue that contributes to me feeling like I'm meddling where I'm not wanted is the fact that I simply have more books than the DM does. I have at least 20 I think, while he has about four or five and as I've said his corebooks are out of date. I don't want to intrude too much on his authority by introducing too many unfamiliar elements. My DM is new to this, and working well with what he has, and I don't want to accidentaly derail the game. Judging from this and what I've seen elsewhere on the boards, Tome of Battle seems well worth the money. Looks like I've got some shopping to do! :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek: I just remembered! It's a little early to think about prestige classes, since everyone in the party is only level 2! :smalleek:

Matthew
2007-04-24, 06:59 PM
Okay. Here's the thing. Your Dungeon Master is in charge of what version of the game you are playing. You can offer to loan him books, but you shouldn't expect him to recognise their brilliance and use them automatically. You and your group need to get straight what version of the rules you are using. If the Dungeon Master says 'a composite of 3.0 and 3.5' without further explanation as to what that means, you are going to have to either accept that you won't be able to affect his decisions or leave the game. If you are otherwise having a good time, it hardly seems worth kicking up a fuss about it. If you want to use the books you have the way you want, you will probably have to run your own game.

Your Player Character party is dominated by Rogue types (Monk, Rogue, Bard) and Spell Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard). It is not surprising to find that your party is relying on an NPC Barbarian and Fighter to succeed in combat at this level. Really, it would be useful to knw the builds of these Characters to be able to provide advice on how to build them to be free of such reliance at the earliest opportunity.

One suggestion might to be have the Monk drop out and become a Fighter, Barbarian or Ranger. There is an Eberron Feat that would allow her to use Flurry of Blows with a Long Sword, which she could acquire as a Monk 2/Fighter 1, but there is the experience point penalty to deal with, the fact that she can never go back and the general suckiness of being a high level Fighter.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-04-24, 10:10 PM
For that, I'll need to see their character sheets...which are all computer generated (I find this a little bit inconvenient for the players). Hopefully I can find that out on Thursday with this week's session. Bill (our DM), keeps track of all the character sheets except mine so the other players don't lose them.

Thus the only build I can contribute at the moment is my own.

Level 2 Diviner, Neutral alignment
Stats:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 17
INT 18
WIS 14
CHA 12

Rat familiar

Specialized School: Divination
Banned School(s): Evocation

Feats:
Scribe Scroll (Bonus)
Skill Focus (Knowledge (arcana))
Quicken Spell

Skills (assume max ranks in each):

Concentration +8
Knowledge (arcana) +12
Knowledge (architecture & engineering) +9
Knowledge (history) +9
Knowledge (local) +9
Knowledge (the planes) +9
Spellcraft +9

Spellbook:

All 0-level spells except evocation

1st level
Cause Fear
Disguise Self
Enlarge Person
Protection from Evil
Summon Monster I
Grease
Mage Armor
Charm Person
Identify

I am playing this as a sort of spy/strategist, eventually able to use divination spells to scout an area and then use offensive spells (like Earthquake or Evard's Black Tentacles) to defeat the enemy in detail. The reason for Skill Focus is because I plan on becoming a Diviner 10/Loremaster 10. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome and encouraged. Thank you.

Matthew
2007-04-25, 02:21 PM
Okay, well it looks like your Character is okay built. You might consider getting hold of Sleep when the opportunity arises. Was this a point buy or were the Characters rolled up?

Dausuul
2007-04-25, 03:17 PM
The 3.0 versus 3.5 issue is a separate one from party composition.

As far as improving combat efficiency goes, I'd suggest simply talking to the DM about adjusting the encounters. Sounds like you have enough second-string melee types (the cleric, the monk, the rogue) to do without a heavy tank, especially with your own character providing battlefield control. If the DM is willing to nerf the encounters a bit to accommodate the less-efficient players, that seems like the best solution.

Trying to optimize other people's characters for them, unasked, is not usually the best idea. (Not to say I haven't done it, but I probably shouldn't have.)

Mellchia
2007-04-25, 03:23 PM
Something else you might want to bring up to the DM - the ecounters appear to be fairly martial which is alright, but perhaps scale them to the level of the party. Of course you're going to see problems with combat, hence the need of the DMPCs.

I'm sure if you ask politely to the DM for clarification which set of rules you are using and at the end of the session give a positive feedback but also indicate that the ecounters are far more combat oriented than the party is geared toward, you should make some progress overall.

Talk to your fellow players and see how they feel about the game. If it appears that they start ganging up on the DM, switch sides and say what worked.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-04-25, 07:41 PM
Well, I've spoken with my DM, though it may require a bit more negotiation. However, it would appear that the druid will not be with us anymore. Her player (the DM's sister) was really only there to help add an extra player (the only players that were originally there were Amara and Giliana's players). Now that the party has a rogue, wizard and cleric, the game can move much smoother, and since Pearl's player didn't really care for the game, she'll no longer be attending. While sorry to see her leave, I am a bit relieved that that'll be one less character to keep track of in a fight.