Pretending to be a bard

[brian c]

So I have a character concept, a wandering performer who is actually a Rogue. This isn't for an actual campaign (yet) so I have no restrictions on what sources to use. Here's what I'm thinking: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Bard /Rogue X. The Bard levels are so that I have a little bit of actual Bardic ability, I'd just be faking being a full Bard. The fighter levels could be replaced by Swashbuckler maybe, or something else. I thought Fighter because I could use those bonus feats for melee stuff and the rest of my feats on something like Extra Music or whatever to keep faking my Bard-ness. Skill points would go to Bluff, Disguise, UMD and obviously Perform, plus Hide,Move Silently and standard Rogue stuff. Race probably Human, alignment probably CN.

Stats would be High Int and Cha, then Dex. Str and Con not all that important, and Wis much less important if I take Force of Personality (Cha to will saves instead of Wis).

This is just a rough outline for a character in my head; what does anyone think about it? I don't mind critiques (this time, :smallwink: @ Person_Man), but it has to be a Rogue-ish character with a couple levels in bard. Some thoughts:

Should I do Thief-Acrobat instead of Rogue?
How many levels in Bard would be good?
Are the Fighter levels necessary?
What about Swashbuckler (since Int would be probably my second highest stat)?
What PrCs might be good for this?
What race? I'm thinking doppelganger would be cool, but is that worth losing the bonus feat? Grey Elf has +Int and +Dex, but I don't think that really fits the flavor.

Input is appreciated, thank you

[kamikasei]

Why is he pretending to "be" a bard? Or should I say, a Bard? "Bard" as a class doesn't really exist within the game - bard as a profession can describe anyone with a good Perform skill - and having bard levels means that he is, in fact, a Bard, just not a very skilled one. So what's the pretense? Who's he aiming to fool, I suppose is the real question, and what about precisely?

[MeklorIlavator]

Why are bard levels necessary? Put some skills into preform and get a couple of low level wands(bless, cure light, etc.) and you can mimic to come extent the ablities of a bard.

The concept is a little unclear, as are the reasons for making the build specifically a bard.

[brian c]

Well, basically it's a cover for thievery. The jovial performer is less suspicious than the cloaked stranger in the corner, but in this case it wasn't the cloak-guy who stole the crown jewels, it was the bard!

You're right in that if I take levels of Bard I'm not pretending so much anymore, but I'm still pretending to be only a bard.

"Yep, I'm level 10, but that's all in Bard. I pose no threat to you on my own, I'm only dangerous if I have allies to buff. Yessir, that's me, the friendly Bard, good party member but completely unable to stab you while you sleep, and definitely not while you're awake."


The reasons for adding the Bard levels are so I can do Fascinate and actual Bard songs, and Bardic Knowledge. Potentially this character would also hide his true class from party members.


Make more sense now?

[kamikasei]

Okay... but then all you need is a straight Rogue with ranks in Bluff and Perform, really. Characters have no concept of Class; all any character you encounter outside of combat would know to identify you as a bard or not would be that you play an instrument, or sing, or orate, or whatever, and make money from it.

Unless you want to fool players, who might metagame to the extent of asking "how come this 'Bard' ain't never used fascinate or..." (which, again, they should never have reason to ask unless they see you in combat), which is a very different proposition to just trying to fool NPCs.

If what you're after is a PC who passes as a Bard in interactions with NPCs, straight Rogue should do. If you want an NPC who your players will think is a Bard, that's when you need to be more inventive.

[Assassinfox]

Make more sense now?

No, it doesn't make more sense. There are no "classes" in character. People in the middle ages didn't have conversations like this:

Peasant: Hey, there! What class are you?
Knight: Oh, me? I'm a level 8 Paladin who took a 2 level dip in Fighter. What are you?
Peasant: Oh, just a level 3 commoner. I'm thinking of dipping into bard next level for some proficiencies and UMD.

Unless your DM has no idea how to roleplay, nobody's gonna walk up and ask you "Hey, what class/level are you?"

Edit: NINJA'ED. >_<

[thorgrim29]

Yea, I'm running a character similar to that, a rogue, going for the mountebank PRC, has full ranks in perform string instruments, the game just started so I cant tell you how it goes, but the idea is similar to yours, only no bard lor fighter levels.

[MeklorIlavator]

Go Bard and then Thief acrobat(for thieving). You want ablities that are level dependent, so you might as well stay in the class. Get Subsonics(complete Adv.) as soon as you can.

[brian c]

I don't mind critiques, but it has to be a Rogue-ish character with a couple levels in bard.

Quoted just so you read it. I want my character to be a Rogue with some Bardic skill, pretending that he has a lot more.

Yes, I'm aware that "class" is a mechanics thing, and that real people don't talk about what class they are. I'm not retarded, but thanks for clearing that up just for anyone who is. (no offense to anyone who actually is learning disable, but you gotta admit it's pretty obvious)

No, I'm not interested in hearing why I shouldn't take the levels in Bard. I said I was going to, and I specifically asked people NOT to change that if they offered advice.

[kamikasei]

It sounds to me, then, that if what you're after is a thief who uses bardic ability as cover, all you need is the one or two levels of bard for the basic bardic abilities, and rogue for the rest. From both classes, max Perform, Bluff, and the thiefly skills. I don't see that there's any need for Fighter, or Swashbuckler, or whatever levels unless you want them for PrC qualification, say. As far as the game world is concerned, you will seem just as much a bard as any other character just with a maxed Perform.

I guess what I don't understand is why you have specific mechanical requirements for what sounds like a pure-fluff idea.

[brian c]

It sounds to me, then, that if what you're after is a thief who uses bardic ability as cover, all you need is the one or two levels of bard for the basic bardic abilities, and rogue for the rest. From both classes, max Perform, Bluff, and the thiefly skills. I don't see that there's any need for Fighter, or Swashbuckler, or whatever levels unless you want them for PrC qualification, say. As far as the game world is concerned, you will seem just as much a bard as any other character just with a maxed Perform.

Alright, thanks.


I guess what I don't understand is why you have specific mechanical requirements for what sounds like a pure-fluff idea.

Well, I kinda think of it as a Rogue who got the idea to learn some musical skills (taking a level or two in Bard) and use that as a cover.

[Assassinfox]

I guess what I don't understand is why you have specific mechanical requirements for what sounds like a pure-fluff idea.


"Yep, I'm level 10, but that's all in Bard. I pose no threat to you on my own, I'm only dangerous if I have allies to buff. Yessir, that's me, the friendly Bard, good party member but completely unable to stab you while you sleep, and definitely not while you're awake."

The reasons for adding the Bard levels are so I can do Fascinate and actual Bard songs, and Bardic Knowledge. Potentially this character would also hide his true class from party members.

Sounds to me like he's going to trick the other players into thinking he's a bard, and then go "I'm a rogue, suckas!" and backstab them in their sleep.

[kamikasei]

Sounds to me like he's going to trick the other players into thinking he's a bard, and then go "I'm a rogue, suckas!" and backstab them in their sleep.

If that's the case, then yeah, you'd need to pull some tricks to emulate the various bardic abilities. I'm still not sure whether the build is intended to fool NPCs who would never get to see those abilities and who have no metagame concept of a "bard class", or PCs who would and do, though.

[Tellah]

Should I do Thief-Acrobat instead of Rogue?
How many levels in Bard would be good?
Are the Fighter levels necessary?
What about Swashbuckler (since Int would be probably my second highest stat)?
What PrCs might be good for this?
What race? I'm thinking doppelganger would be cool, but is that worth losing the bonus feat? Grey Elf has +Int and +Dex, but I don't think that really fits the flavor.

Input is appreciated, thank you

All you need to make a competent fighter pretending to be a bard is to build an effective fighting character and put skill points into perform. If you want to do an int-based rapier duelist well, a Warblade with Diamond Mind maneuvers can work nicely, and it might even get some mileage out of having 3 levels of Swashbuckler as well, if you wanted to do that.

The character you're describing could be played with any number of class and prestige class combos, though. Pick one whose abilities you like and run with it. If you've got something specific you want to do, we can assist you further. Do you want to be the kind of fighter who harries opponents, providing flanking bonuses and supplemental damage to help out the main bruiser? Are you going to be the primary damage-dealer of the group? Do you want sneak attack? That'll help to narrow down which classes are appropriate.

[Amphimir Míriel]

In the name of the International Guild of Bards, Enchanters, Beguilers, and similar performers, I demand that you cease and desist of this idea. Otherwise come with me to the nearest guildhall, where we will discuss the matter of overdue fees.
The third option involves Luigi and Guido, who will be visiting you shortly if you don't leave town in 24 hours.

[brian c]

In the name of the International Guild of Bards, Enchanters, Beguilers, and similar performers, I demand that you cease and desist of this idea. Otherwise come with me to the nearest guildhall, where we will discuss the matter of overdue fees.
The third option involves Luigi and Guido, who will be visiting you shortly if you don't leave town in 24 hours.

Ah-ha, but I am actually taking levels in Bard, so that's not a misrepresentation. Do you have a problem with multi-class bards or with non-good Bards?

[Dr. Weasel]

Well, basically it's a cover for thievery. The jovial performer is less suspicious than the cloaked stranger in the corner, but in this case it wasn't the cloak-guy who stole the crown jewels, it was the bard!

You realize that Rogues can be brightly colored performers just as well as Bards, yes? There is nothing implying that they must be suspicious "cloaked stranger[s] in the corner[s]."
There also is nothing saying that only Bards can be "jovial performer[s]."

Also, if you want to be "a Rogue-ish character with a couple levels in bard" I would recommend... Bard.
Bard levels and multiclassing don't mix well since the key Bard class abilities rely on Bard levels. Pick up Arcane Strike or a couple o' archery feats and you should be at least somewhat capable in combat (more than you would be wasting only 2-3 levels in Bard).

[brian c]

You realize that Rogues can be brightly colored performers just as well as Bards, yes? There is nothing implying that they must be suspicious "cloaked stranger[s] in the corner[s]."
There also is nothing saying that only Bards can be "jovial performer[s]."

Also, if you want to be "a Rogue-ish character with a couple levels in bard" I would recommend... Bard.
Bard levels and multiclassing don't mix well since the key Bard class abilities rely on Bard levels. Pick up Arcane Strike or a couple o' archery feats and you should be at least somewhat capable in combat (more than you would be wasting only 2-3 levels in Bard).

You're missing the point I think. I don't want to be a Bard, and I only want enough Bard class abilities to make people believe that I am one. Being a full-class Bard does give me skill points to be good at hiding and sneaking, but Rogue or Thief-Acrobat is more like what I want.

[silentknight]

I have a character named Milo the Minstrel who has ranks in perform so that he can play a flute. He has no levels in bard. He is a rogue. A rogue who can pretend to be a bard if he wants. Did I mention he has no bard levels? And can still play a flute. Without bard levels. Flute. No bard. Rinse. Repeat.

[Bardbarian]

--->My Beguiler in the Xendrik RPGA campaign has enough Perform (mandolin) ranks to fake Bard enough to keep those pesky Covenant of Light fellas honest. They tend to have some misguided idea there is some kind of "Conspiracy of Darkness," or something... ;)

[Indon]

No, it doesn't make more sense. There are no "classes" in character. People in the middle ages didn't have conversations like this:


Well, some classes are more or less in-character. Druids, for instance. But Bards aren't really one of those classes.

[MeklorIlavator]

You're missing the point I think. I don't want to be a Bard, and I only want enough Bard class abilities to make people believe that I am one. Being a full-class Bard does give me skill points to be good at hiding and sneaking, but Rogue or Thief-Acrobat is more like what I want.
Then Be A Rogue and Max Preform and Use Magical device!:furious:

[brian c]

Then Be A Rogue and Max Preform and Use Magical device!:furious:

Dude. I saw what you wrote before. Please don't troll my thread.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Dude. I saw what you wrote before. Please don't troll my thread.

To be honest BC, I too have no idea what you really want. You tell us you want to pretend to be a bard. Firstly, pretend to whom? And then you take Bard levels, which means you have no need to pretend to be a bard. Those saying 'play rogue with ranks in perform' are only doing so because you first stated you wanted to pretend being a bard.

What is it, you really want?

[BardicDuelist]

Brian C: If you want to emulate bardic abilities and have a rogue, try the beguiler class. You get quicker spell casting, so it would be far more useful. Even though it is CC for perform, you can easily make that up with the cosmopolitan feat, or since your perform ranks wont suffer for missing one or two, just ignore it.

[brian c]

To be honest BC, I too have no idea what you really want. You tell us you want to pretend to be a bard. Firstly, pretend to whom? And then you take Bard levels, which means you have no need to pretend to be a bard. Those saying 'play rogue with ranks in perform' are only doing so because you first stated you wanted to pretend being a bard.

What is it, you really want?

Excuse me if I sound rude, but these questions were asked before and I answered them. To recap though: I want a thief with a couple levels in Bard who pretends that he's just a bard. I know that classes aren't "real" so much as game mechanics, but basically this guy would be a garage rocker pretending that he's a rock star. Potentially, other PCs would also not know his true class. The levels in the actual Bard class are so that I have Bardic Music, which I think should be noticeable different than "mundane" music.

[MeklorIlavator]

Excuse me if I sound rude, but these questions were asked before and I answered them. To recap though: I want a thief with a couple levels in Bard who pretends that he's just a bard. I know that classes aren't "real" so much as game mechanics, but basically this guy would be a garage rocker pretending that he's a rock star. Potentially, other PCs would also not know his true class. The levels in the actual Bard class are so that I have Bardic Music, which I think should be noticeable different than "mundane" music.
I'm not trolling, at least not in my sense of the word. You appeared to be asking for things that were apparently contradictory to you, but didn't seem so to the rest of the boards. As splashing for bard is incredibly pointless, as all of the noticeable abilities are level dependent. For instance, 2 levels of bard gives BM twice per day, and people would quickly notice that the guy calling himself a full bard isn't really displaying many bardic qualities. Better to get a couple wands and try and mimic it some other way (like with bless, or other such spells).

And since bared don't get any bonuses to Preform checks, the rogue, if played right would appear to be just as hardcore a rocker as the Bard.

And you never made it clear, only repeated what confused people in your first post, and constant repetition is probably one of the worst ways to foster understanding.

[Ruik]

The problem as far as I can tell is everyone understands the fact that you want bard levels - you did make that clear. The problem is no one can understand why, and the thread is going to be incredibly hard to keep on-topic if no one can figure out just why you would want to do that.

As to some of your other questions from the opening post... if your trying to emulate a bard but actually be a rogue, then why fighter levels at all? Are you trying to do something I missed?

As for race, for no apparent reason at all, I immediately thought of changeling from Eberron. There is something appealing to me (assuming I would ever try this build) to have a character whose class appeared to be one thing, but was actually another, and who could change their appearance at will as well.

You'd never quite know what the hell was going on...

[kamikasei]

Brian,

yes, you've answered questions, but the answers didn't actually clarify much. The main source of confusion, I think, is that you're mixing in-character and out-of-character concepts. Can you answer these questions?

- Who are you trying to fool?
* NPCs - you're a PC, and posing as a wandering minstrel is your thiefly MO
* PCs - you're an NPC, and you want to use this NPC against the players while it seems to be something else
* PCs - you're a PC, and you want to fool the other players into thinking your class is something other than what it is.

Each of these has a different degree of mechanical mimicry required of it; fooling NPCs into thinking you're a wandering minstrel requires only the Perform skill, because then you are a wandering minstrel; fooling players sitting around the table with you requires being able to duplicate most of the Bard's mechanical abilities.

- What in-game things identify someone as "a bard" and are likely to be observed? (This depends on who you're trying to fool.)
* Are "bards" a recognized component of society with known magical abilities? Are all wandering performers assumed to be moderately competent warriors with magical abilities? This strikes me as a bit strange.
* Is being able to perform inadequate to convince people that you're a performer? Will they be suspicious of any minstrel or poet who can't turn invisible?

That last point is another issue with trying to convince people you're "just a bard" - there's not much "just" about being a bard. Bards are exceptional and highly weird people, and there's not much more reason to trust a bard than a rogue not to be a thief.

edit: I almost forgot... if you do want something mechanically close to a bard, you might consider Cloistered Cleric. You'll have the light armor, but not the shields; simple weapons, but not the extra ones a bard gets; and a class feature that is identical to Bardic Knowledge. If you burn the feat to get all skills as class skills, or whatever it does, you have the same number of skill points to distribute. You won't have real Bardic Music, but you'll have full cleric casting; and if you take the Trickery domain, you'll have some extra thiefly abilities. (Actually, you might be able to get the skills you need through domains rather than a feat.)

[Scartore]

--->My Beguiler in the Xendrik RPGA campaign has enough Perform (mandolin) ranks to fake Bard enough to keep those pesky Covenant of Light fellas honest. They tend to have some misguided idea there is some kind of "Conspiracy of Darkness," or something... ;)

We once built a whole party based around the idea of a Heavy Metal band.
We called ourselves "Sonic @#$% Death Monkey" (re. High Fidelity).

We had a Barbarian Lead Guitarist, a wizard singer, and a dwarf cleric drummer.
the only actual bard in the party was Pixie, our dancer and tambourine player. She went the entire campaign without ever making an attack roll!