VMC's: How Do They Work

[Molosse]

As a follow up from the previous VMC thread I though it'd be nice to invite Gtitp'ers to bring forwards any confusion they have over the whole system and perhaps through discussion and opinion we can work our way through it.

For my first then:

If I take a Tactician Fighter, who gains Tactician at level 5, VMC Cavalier, who gains Tactician at level 11, how do these abilities interact?

The Fighter's ability states: "At 5th level, a tactician gains the tactician ability as the cavalier class feature... If the tactician also has cavalier levels, these levels stack for determining the number of uses per day, and he can take the better progression."

So then would the hypothetical Tactician Fighter (VMC Cavalier) have:

I) Two teamwork feats that can be used with Tactician with a Cavaliers better progression.
II) One teamwork feat that can be used with Tactician with a Cavaliers better progression.
III) Two teamwork feats that work with two iterations of Tactician with separate uses per day.
IV) Two teamwork feats that work with two iterations of Tactician with separate uses per day that both progress as a Cavalier.

Have a go with mine and throw your own into the pit.

[Vhaidara]

No one knows. I was actually talking to my local PFS buddies, and they explained this very interaction is why VMC isn't PFS legal.

As a note, my group is pretty rules savvy. I'm in Boston, so the former home of Rogue Eidolon.

[Molosse]

No one knows. I was actually talking to my local PFS buddies, and they explained this very interaction is why VMC isn't PFS legal.

As a note, my group is pretty rules savvy. I'm in Boston, so the former home of Rogue Eidolon.

Well then, as a community outside of PFS, perhaps it'd be best to work out some rules that we can work on.

For example:
I) Unless you'd argue that (VMC Fighter) grants a PC access to Fighter only feats it can be said that VMC's function less as a Multiclass and more of a non-optional Feat Chain that grants specific Class abilities. To that end you could argue that whenever a VMC states "treating his character level as his effective cavalier level -X..." it is only in regards to that specific iteration of that specific ability.

So then using our question above we can argue that:
Similarly to a Level 5 Tactician taking a level of Cavalier, the PC does gain a second teamwork bonus feat however, unlike a 5/1 Tactician/Cavalier who would progress his/her Tactician ability as a level 6 Cavalier, a Tactician (VMC Cavalier) would, at level 11, count as having one Tactician pool as a level 11 Cavalier (8rds 3/Day) and another pool as a level 11 Tactician Fighter (8rds 2/Day).

Or at least that's my understanding.

[daryen]

New confusion: Just want to confirm that the only abilities gained from the VMC are those specifically listed in the VMC entries. So, even if you take VMC Sorcerer, you do NOT actually gain any spells; you only gain the listed bloodline powers. Likewise, if you take VMC Fighter, you do NOT actually gain any armor or weapon proficiencies; you only gain the listed class features.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Also, is it really intended to make getting two animal companions (or an animal companion and familiar, or two familiars) that easy? Seems kinda off.

When I look at the VMC, it seems like it actively encourages using a VMC similar to your starting class, rather than one widely divergent. Which seems kinda counter-productive.

Oh, one more: Can you VMC into your starting class? For most VMC classes that would be worthless, but Sorcerer/VMC Sorcerer or Wizard/VMC Wizard could be pretty useful.

[Molosse]

New confusion: Just want to confirm that the only abilities gained from the VMC are those specifically listed in the VMC entries. So, even if you take VMC Sorcerer, you do NOT actually gain any spells; you only gain the listed bloodline powers. Likewise, if you take VMC Fighter, you do NOT actually gain any armor or weapon proficiencies; you only gain the listed class features.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Also, is it really intended to make getting two animal companions (or an animal companion and familiar, or two familiars) that easy? Seems kinda off.

When I look at the VMC, it seems like it actively encourages using a VMC similar to your starting class, rather than one widely divergent. Which seems kinda counter-productive.

Oh, one more: Can you VMC into your starting class? For most VMC classes that would be worthless, but Sorcerer/VMC Sorcerer or Wizard/VMC Wizard could be pretty useful.

In order:
A) Yes, only the specific's that the VMC states you gain, no Armour/Weapon proficiency unless it specifically mentions that the VMC grants the specific proficiency (See Gunslinger VMC).
B) Don't feel comfortable answering, I'd assume it wasn't designed as such but it does allow for multiple AC's or Familiars.
C) No. I'm sure there's a rule reason but I don't have the book on me at the moment, so this will be a gut-shot with me saying I don't believe that's the case.

[Psyren]

When I look at the VMC, it seems like it actively encourages using a VMC similar to your starting class, rather than one widely divergent. Which seems kinda counter-productive.

This entirely depends on what you consider to be "similar" and "divergent." But even then I consider this to be false. I would argue for example that Fighter and Wizard are as dissimilar as they come, yet a Fighter with the Wizard VMC is a very solid combination. You get a full-progression familiar (and can give it a helpful archetype even), useful school powers (note in particular that the touch powers work exceedingly well on a fighter, who doesn't mind getting close), and a 15 or lower Arcane Discovery.

For example, I could make a grandmaster smith with the Creation school who can literally pull minor objects out of thin air (including any weapon he can think of) plus the Arcane Builder or even Golem Constructor arcane discoveries. Or I could make an Awesomeness By Analysis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomenessByAnalysis) Lore Warden Fighter with the Divination school and Knowledge Is Power or Time Stutter arcane discoveries. Or I could make a bestial warrior with the Shapechange school and the Multimorph or Feral Speech discoveries. There are a lot of cool options out there.

[Molosse]

This entirely depends on what you consider to be "similar" and "divergent." But even then I consider this to be false. I would argue for example that Fighter and Wizard are as dissimilar as they come, yet a Fighter with the Wizard VMC is a very solid combination. You get a full-progression familiar (and can give it a helpful archetype even), useful school powers (note in particular that the touch powers work exceedingly well on a fighter, who doesn't mind getting close), and a 15 or lower Arcane Discovery.

For example, I could make a grandmaster smith with the Creation school who can literally pull minor objects out of thin air (including any weapon he can think of) plus the Arcane Builder or even Golem Constructor arcane discoveries. Or I could make an Awesomeness By Analysis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomenessByAnalysis) Lore Warden Fighter with the Divination school and Knowledge Is Power or Time Stutter arcane discoveries. Or I could make a bestial warrior with the Shapechange school and the Multimorph or Feral Speech discoveries. There are a lot of cool options out there.

Or a Witcher-esque Warrior with Slayer (VMC Alchemist) or a Would-be-mage Rogue with Rogue (VMC Wizard) or a demonically possessed soldier with Fighter (VMC Sorcerer).

Suffice to say there a lot of... "Interesting" combinations one can make when utilising VMC's that may, at first glance, not quite fit together. For example, to reverse Psyren's example, A Wizard (VMC Battle Oracle) works well as a Eldritch Knight without really dipping into the Divine elements you see with the Oracle.

[grarrrg]

Also, is it really intended to make getting two animal companions (or an animal companion and familiar, or two familiars) that easy? Seems kinda off.

It is very likely NOT intended for you to have multiple companions.
The default rulings are that Effective druid levels always stack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions)
"The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."

Effective wizard levels always stack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar)
"Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level."

With regards to Druid VMC, you'd probably just take the better of your 'normal' Companion and your VMC companions effective levels, as the Druid VMC has a strict "nothing stacks" rider.

With regards to Wizard/Witch VMC, most Familiar stats are independent of "wizard level", such as HP, Saves, Skills, etc... Your Familiar would get their Special Abilities, INT boosts, and Nat-Armor increases sooner, but as the bonus table stops at 20, anything after that is wasted.


When I look at the VMC, it seems like it actively encourages using a VMC similar to your starting class, rather than one widely divergent. Which seems kinda counter-productive.

Yes and no.
I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle.
It's not that a Barbarian is "encouraged" to take, say, Fighter-VMC, but that a Fighter-VMC is more likely to compliment a Barbarian than, say, Witch-VMC.
A Barbarian can use all of the Fighter bonuses while Raging, but many of the Witch bonuses would probably require "concentration" and thus could not be used in a Rage.
Likewise, a Wizard has very little need for Fighter-VMC, as they can't wear most armor anyway, and won't benefit much from using a Weapon. But Oracle-VMC opens up casting focused Revelations that can be VERY handy.

[The Random NPC]

There's a line in Unchained that says you can't take levels in a class that you VMC in, and vice versa.

[Psyren]

I agree with grarrrg (I always get the number of "r's" wrong and have to retype it) that it's very likely not intended to give you multiple familiars/companions/eidolons. Until they FAQrrata it however, that is what happens, because the FAQ covers "different classes" rather than what VMC does, which is to give you a second instance of the class feature without actually being a second class themselves. And if you rule that you still only get one, you end up with either a really fast-accelerating companion (since the VMC companions usually scale with character level already), or you end up with a VMC feature that trades a feat away for nothing at all. I don't think either of these are desirable outcomes.

[grarrrg]

I agree with grarrrg (I always get the number of "r's" wrong and have to retype it)

Yeah...I hate that guy's name.
It's not even really a name, you know?
It's more like some random gibberish, like smacking your hand on the keyboard repeatedly.

But seriously, spell it however you like, everyone else does.

[Molosse]

I agree with grarrrg (I always get the number of "r's" wrong and have to retype it) that it's very likely not intended to give you multiple familiars/companions/eidolons. Until they FAQrrata it however, that is what happens, because the FAQ covers "different classes" rather than what VMC does, which is to give you a second instance of the class feature without actually being a second class themselves. And if you rule that you still only get one, you end up with either a really fast-accelerating companion (since the VMC companions usually scale with character level already), or you end up with a VMC feature that trades a feat away for nothing at all. I don't think either of these are desirable outcomes.

I copy and paste his name every time I have to type it.

[Palanan]

grarrrg clearly has the Education feat, because he's got the three R's plus one more.

:smallyuk: