Archivist and Sacred Excorcist

[BowStreetRunner]

So I was throwing together an Archivist build that picks up Sacred Exorcist in order to be able to power DMM feats and I noticed something curious.

The Archivist normally gains two free cleric spells known at each class level. But the Sacred Exorcist only gains new spells per day as if they had gained a level in Archivist, but no other class features. So they would not pick up the new spells known. We haven't actually been playing this way, but that appears to be what the rules state.

For anyone who has played in a game with an Archivist character whose spellcasting was advanced by a PrC, how have you dealt with this in your games? Do you go with RAW and the Archivist just gets the new slots but has to learn his spells the hard way, or do you keep granting the two free cleric spells known at each level?

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is a known dysfunction, many spellcasting prestige classes advance the spells per level, but not spells knows and one would have to read the Spellcasting entry on the prestige class really closely to note that. But RAW yeah you don't get them. Archivist have easier than other classes (like sorcerer) since they can add spells to their prayerbook without much hassle. Personally I would ask my DM to waive that and let all classes that advance spellcasting advance spell known/per day; it makes things so much simpler in general.

[Flickerdart]

The Archivist normally gains two free cleric spells known at each class level. But the Sacred Exorcist only gains new spells per day as if they had gained a level in Archivist, but no other class features. So they would not pick up the new spells known. We haven't actually been playing this way, but that appears to be what the rules state.
The verbiage used in prestige classes for advancing spellcasting is notoriously inconsistent. There is evidence that the designers forgot what spellcasting actually includes - archmages don't get increased caster level, for instance, while mystic theurge reads:


"When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. "

Emphases mine. Caster level increases are only listed in the reminder text, as though the designers assumed that the stuff mystic theurges gain included CL. In entries like eldritch knight, the bracketed formatting of "and spells known if applicable" also leads me to believe it was just intended as reminder text.

The discrepancies between various PrCs' "spellcasting" entries don't seem to follow any intentional pattern. The one exception is PrCs intended for divine caster entry where the writers assumed all divine casters knew their entire list. My own personal thoughts on the matter are that RAI was for casters to gain spells per day, spells known (using the mechanic appropriate for the base class used to enter), and caster level when they take a level in any "+1 spellcasting level" PrC regardless of the PrC's own actual wording.

[torrasque666]

Thing is, only spontaneous casters have a spells known class feature, prepared ones either have access to all (most divine) or are stated to know them another way(wizards/archivist). For the latter, I believe the class feature is spellbook/prayerbook. And thus, they would not benefits from the "spells known if applicable" line.

On mobile, and thus can't confirm or not.

[Flickerdart]

Thing is, only spontaneous casters have a spells known class feature, prepared ones either have access to all (most divine) or are stated to know them another way(wizards/archivist). For the latter, I believe the class feature is spellbook/prayerbook. And thus, they would not benefits from the "spells known if applicable" line.

On mobile, and thus can't confirm or not.
Wizards do know spells - "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured." Additionally, Spell Mastery (a feat that can only be taken by wizards) reads: "Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know."

[torrasque666]

Wizards do know spells - "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured." Additionally, Spell Mastery (a feat that can only be taken by wizards) reads: "Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know."
I didn't say they didn't know their spells, but that things that advance "Spells Known" wouldn't work because they don't have a class feature tracking it, limiting it. A Wizard doesn't have a Spells Known track to be advanced, a Sorcerer does. A base (no changes other than stats) Wizard 5 with 18 INT knowns minimum 61 spells and easily knows over 1000. A base Sorcerer with 18 CHA on the other hand knows 12 spells. Period. But since it has a Spells Known class feature to be advanced, when it gains a level in a prestige class that advances "Spells known if applicable" doesn't get the 2 bonus spells for leveling because that's part of a separate and differently named class feature.

[Aleolus]

Speaking of Spell Mastery, would you guys allow an Archivist to take that feat and apply it to the spells in their. prayerbook?

[Flickerdart]

I didn't say they didn't know their spells, but that things that advance "Spells Known" wouldn't work because they don't have a class feature tracking it...
Let me stop you right there - "spells known" is not a class feature. The sorcerer's spells known are discussed in the class feature Spells. A "spells known track" is not even a game term.

It's very simple. The wizard knows spells. The sorcerer knows spells. Both learn new spells when they level up. "Spells known, if applicable" applies to both.

[torrasque666]

Let me stop you right there - "spells known" is not a class feature. The sorcerer's spells known are discussed in the class feature Spells. A "spells known track" is not even a game term.

It's very simple. The wizard knows spells. The sorcerer knows spells. Both learn new spells when they level up. "Spells known, if applicable" applies to both.
You are correct, its not a class feature. However, the sorcerer does have a table for Spells Known while a Wizard does not. A Wizard has nothing to be advanced while a Sorcerer does.

[Flickerdart]

You are correct, its not a class feature. However, the sorcerer does have a table for Spells Known while a Wizard does not. A Wizard has nothing to be advanced while a Sorcerer does.
Having a table doesn't change anything - both the wizard and sorcerer have spells known, because they both know spells.

[torrasque666]

Having a table doesn't change anything - both the wizard and sorcerer have spells known, because they both know spells.
How many spells does a Wizard know? 8? 90? 1000? There is no number to be advanced, nothing that says Wizard 10 knows X amount of spells. A sorcerer of any given level(barring things like Extra Spell) knows exactly what his table says he does. Thus, he has Spells Known to be advanced. There's a difference between knowing spells and having Spells Known.

[Flickerdart]

How many spells does a Wizard know? 8? 90? 1000? There is no number to be advanced, nothing that says Wizard 10 knows X amount of spells.
It says "an increase in spells known" which is a set quantity for the wizard - two spells.


There's a difference between knowing spells and having Spells Known.
No, there isn't. See, I can make unsubstantiated statements too.

[torrasque666]

It says "an increase in spells known" which is a set quantity for the wizard - two spells.


No, there isn't. See, I can make unsubstantiated statements too.
Yes, but those spells DON'T COME FROM SPELLCASTING. They come from the Spellbook Class feature, which is entirely separate from the spellcasting ability. Lets compare the two different Spells abilities

A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the wizard spell list (see bottom of page). A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.
Her base daily spell allotment is given in the Advancement table below. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8).

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, page 179). She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night's sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177).

A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3—16: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3—17: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3—17 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can't use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. For instance, upon reaching 4th-level, a sorcerer could trade in a single 0-level spell (two spell levels below the highest-level sorcerer spell he can cast, which is 2nd) for a different 0-level spell. At 6th level, he could trade in a single 0-level or 1st-level spell (since he now can cast 3rd-level sorcerer spells) for a different spell of the same level. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. For example, at 1st level, the sorcerer Hennet can cast four 1st-level spells per day—three for being 1st level (see Table 3—16: The Sorcerer), plus one thanks to his Charisma score of 15 (see Table 1— 1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). However, he knows only two 1st-level spells: magic missile and sleep (see Table 3—17: Sorcerer Spells Known). Thus, on any given day, he can cast some combination of the two spells a total of four times. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he'll cast.

Only the sorcerer has a level-dependent Spells Known. The Wizard's Spellcasting ability makes no mention of gaining new spells ever, only that they can know any number of spells. The Spellbook, an entirely different feature, is where it gets the additional spells per day, and the classes that advance casting almost all have a note saying that they advance no other feature but Spellcasting.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but those spells DON'T COME FROM SPELLCASTING. They come from the Spellbook Class feature, which is entirely separate from the spellcasting ability. Lets compare the two different Spells abilities

A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the wizard spell list (see bottom of page). A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day.
Her base daily spell allotment is given in the Advancement table below. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8).

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, page 179). She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night's sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177).

A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3—16: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (see Table 1—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells (also called cantrips) and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3—17: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3—17 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can't use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. For instance, upon reaching 4th-level, a sorcerer could trade in a single 0-level spell (two spell levels below the highest-level sorcerer spell he can cast, which is 2nd) for a different 0-level spell. At 6th level, he could trade in a single 0-level or 1st-level spell (since he now can cast 3rd-level sorcerer spells) for a different spell of the same level. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. For example, at 1st level, the sorcerer Hennet can cast four 1st-level spells per day—three for being 1st level (see Table 3—16: The Sorcerer), plus one thanks to his Charisma score of 15 (see Table 1— 1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). However, he knows only two 1st-level spells: magic missile and sleep (see Table 3—17: Sorcerer Spells Known). Thus, on any given day, he can cast some combination of the two spells a total of four times. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he'll cast.

Only the sorcerer has a level-dependent Spells Known. The Wizard's Spellcasting ability makes no mention of gaining new spells ever, only that they can know any number of spells. The Spellbook, an entirely different feature, is where it gets the additional spells per day, and the classes that advance casting almost all have a note saying that they advance no other feature but Spellcasting.
Irrelevant. The wizard's spells known are explicitly covered by the "spells known" clause, so "other benefits from advancing" doesn't hit it.

[torrasque666]

Irrelevant. The wizard's spells known are explicitly covered by the "spells known" clause, so "other benefits from advancing" doesn't hit it.
A Wizard's known spells are known through their spellbook. Wizards themselves technically don't even know the spells they have prepared. Thus, they themselves do not gain spells known by a level, the spellbook does. Which would not be covered by the Spells Known clause and rather the Other Class Features clause.

[Flickerdart]

A Wizard's known spells are known through their spellbook. Wizards themselves technically don't even know the spells they have prepared. Thus, they themselves do not gain spells known by a level, the spellbook does. Which would not be covered by the Spells Known clause and rather the Other Class Features clause.
That is factually incorrect. Wizards are referred to several times as knowing spells with no caveats. "Knowing through their spellbook" is not a rules term.

[torrasque666]

That is factually incorrect. Wizards are referred to several times as knowing spells with no caveats. "Knowing through their spellbook" is not a rules term.

For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks If a Wizard loses their spellbook, they know NOTHING according to the glossary. Sure, they can write their prepared, uncast spells into a new one, but until they do they no longer know their spell. Weird huh? Thus, the ONLY way they know spells is because of the spellbook class feature. Which is not advanced by advancing spellcasting. Because it is separate from casting.

[Flickerdart]

If a Wizard loses their spellbook, they know NOTHING according to the glossary.
No, it doesn't. A wizard can't prepare spells from a book that's not in her possession, but nothing implies she does not know them until the spellbook stops being hers. And I'm not terribly interested into dragging this into a conversation about what ownership means in D&D.


Thus, the ONLY way they know spells is because of the spellbook class feature. Which is not advanced by advancing spellcasting. Because it is separate from casting.
That still doesn't follow. You are artificially creating a division where none exists. Nothing anywhere says that the "spells per day/spells known" section of a PrC addresses exclusively the "spells" portion of the class entry.

[torrasque666]

That still doesn't follow. You are artificially creating a division where none exists. Nothing anywhere says that the "spells per day/spells known" section of a PrC addresses exclusively the "spells" portion of the class entry.A division exists among CLASS FEATURES!. One class feature is not another. A Cleric's Domain(s) is not the same as his Turn Undead, they are separate and are advanced separately(namely any domain powers that use your Cleric level as a variable). As is a Wizard's Spellbook. His spellbook is not his casting. While it may contain what he needs to prepare, it is separate because without it he is still casting spells.