How convinient is the Favoured Soul?

[Xapi]

So, we know that Veldryna is a character designed by someone other than Rich, whom he decided could fill a role in the story that was already present, presumably taken by a different character.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the Godsmoot was gonna happen, with or without Veldryna, and that the Order was going to get to it (or maybe not) weather Veldryna was there or not.

Now, it JUST SO HAPPENS that Veldryna's class prevents her from solving the problem they have, making it really incredibly convinient to have the Order approach the Godsmoot.

So this would mean that either:

a) Rich had already thought of a Favoured Soul for this role, and was lucky enough that the cameo character happened to be one.

b) Rich had thought of another way for the Order to get to the super secret meeting, and the Favoured Soul's appearance solved the problem in another, possibly more sensible, way.

c) Rich knew they were gonna go to the Godsmoot, but he didn't know how yet because he wasn't that far along into the details of the strip. Veldryna solved it for him.

Wanna venture a guess? Wanna add another option?

In my opinion it's probably C, but maybe he was lucky enough for it to be A.

[ChristianSt]

The answer is A*): Veldrina took an existing spot, but it is not necessarily one for a Favoured Soul, but more or less of a divine caster. I'm not sure what types of divine caster other than Favoured Soul would have made sense, though. (Because I'm neither Rich nor have much clue about D&D)

Source:
Back when I ran the Kickstarter campaign, the top reward was a walk-on cameo for a D&D character of your creation. It's taken a while, but today I fulfilled that reward in strip #986. Veldrina the elven priestess is the creation of one of my loyal backers and has been included here at their request. In fact, upon hearing the character's description for the first time, I immediately decided to slot her into an existing spot in the upcoming story where a divine caster would make the most sense, so she will be sticking around a bit more than the one page that was paid for. It just took a long time to get to this specific point in the narrative, though luckily the backer has been very gracious and patient for this entire time. So enjoy the first-ever fan-created OOTS character for however long she's here.


I don't think Rich would have compromised his story for the cameo in any way. If there wouldn't be such an existing spot, I think the cameo would just have appeared in 1 strip only, most likely some sort of tavern scene in Tinkertown.

[Xapi]

The answer is A*): Veldrina took an existing spot, but it is not necessarily one for a Favoured Soul, but more or less of a divine caster. I'm not sure what types of divine caster other than Favoured Soul would have made sense, though. (Because I'm neither Rich nor have much clue about D&D)

Then the answer is not A, because in A I explicitely stated that the part was for a Favoured Soul.

So I guess you think the answer is B, that they were going to get there in another way, that involved another Divine Caster who, for some other reason, was unable or unwilling to resurrect Durkon.

[D.One]

So I guess you think the answer is B, that they were going to get there in another way, that involved another Divine Caster who, for some other reason, was unable or unwilling to resurrect Durkon.

That might have been as simple as them learning about some powerful cleric and then discovering at the inn that he/she just left, and Durkula pretending to use some sort of divine magic (Commune, Find the Path, Greater Scrying are all 7th level or lower, and he doesn't need to cast them, just to say he did, since he already know the location) to track him/her or the place he/she went.

[ChristianSt]

Then the answer is not A, because in A I explicitely stated that the part was for a Favoured Soul.

So I guess you think the answer is B, that they were going to get there in another way, that involved another Divine Caster who, for some other reason, was unable or unwilling to resurrect Durkon.

That's way I said "A*" :smallwink:. I wouldn't say B, because you worded in a way that assumes that the Favoured Soul has an impact on how the plot unfolds. While I would assume Rich didn't necessarily thought to use a Favoured Soul, I think that the details of what he planned with the plot are equally suitable for Veldrina as for the original planned divine caster. Because I think Rich (especially for unseen characters) doesn't necessarily think in D&D-classes but more in narrative roles. So I assume that the planned spot was more or less "a divine caster of some (not yet determined) class (possible with some restriction, like not being able to resurrect Durkon), which fills this spot because the character has traits X, Y, Z". Whether that character is a Favoured Soul or something else (as long as it hits some basics) is not relevant for the story.

And since there sometimes is a certain vagueness in the OotS character classes, maybe the cameo circumstances is the only reason we even know Veldrina's class. For example we don't know Tarquin's exact class, and it could be equally likely that it wasn't planned to pin down the class for that divine caster spot.


If you insist that this divine caster has to be planned as a Favoured Soul (and this change doesn't count as a mere "A*") then I would say my answer is none of your proposed options, but would be D. [But in my eyes it fits the flavor of A: Veldrina happened to fill a spot for a planned character, imo without affecting the plot.]

[Xapi]

The thing you're not taking into account is that Favoured Soul is a class that specifically prevents the character from accesing the full Cleric list.

Most any other Divine class would have been able to resurrect Durkon after a rest, and then use the Mechane to get to the Godsmoot while the OotS teleports to the Gate. Of course we know that that can't happen, because the plot requires them to go to the Godsmoot (or for the HPoH to think they're going there for a while, at least).

So, it is really convinient that they find a Divine Caster that happens to be the type that can't solve the problem.

Hence my question, was the role always supposed to be a FS, wich fits the needs of the plot so well? Or was the sequence of events that would get them to the Godsmoot different?

This obviously doesn't discount there being a different Divine Caster, but why would that caster not Resurrect Durkon then and there? Perhaps a low level caster, but he wouldn't be a High Priest of a Diety, would he? Maybe a Paladin, as a higher level Paladin still couldn't cast the spell.

B doesn't assume the FS has an impact on how the MAYOR plot unfolds, only the details. And I think it's clear that it did, if the Divine Caster they'd find was another class, Rich would have to explain why that character can't resurrect Durkon.

[Draz74]

If Veldrina's equivalent had been a Cleric instead of a Favored Soul, she probably would have just been too low-level to cast Resurrection, just like all the gnome Clerics.

Really, the only thing Veldrina as a Favored Soul allowed Rich to do differently is to introduce a higher-level character.

[Reboot]

Yup. The flashback explaining why Durkon became a cleric implied the High Priest of Thor wasn't high-level enough to cast Regenerate (either that or he wasn't a dwarf).

Also, Veldrina's an ambassador for all the Western & elven churches despite being the favoured soul of a "really minor" goddess. So clearly the other guys' Godsmoot isn't a great priority for them.

I have no trouble believing the original plan involved a cleric who simply wasn't high-level enough to cast Resurrection.

[Xapi]

Yup. The flashback explaining why Durkon became a cleric implied the High Priest of Thor wasn't high-level enough to cast Regenerate (either that or he wasn't a dwarf).

I think it implied that the HP didn't care.

[D.One]

I think it implied that the HP didn't care.

A druid wouldn't be able to resurrect Durkon, for example...

[Onyavar]

Well, the Giant had several years time to plan this "cameo". I don't think it is surprising that the character fits so neatly into the story. Other roles could have been introduced just as easily: Since the drive, there were several occasions where people could have been introduced, among them: crew members of the Mechane, any gnomes, or completely different ambassadors in the same hotel. Among the only persons who would be difficult to cameo-ize are high-level clerics.

[ChristianSt]

The thing you're not taking into account is that Favoured Soul is a class that specifically prevents the character from accesing the full Cleric list.

Most any other Divine class would have been able to resurrect Durkon after a rest, and then use the Mechane to get to the Godsmoot while the OotS teleports to the Gate. Of course we know that that can't happen, because the plot requires them to go to the Godsmoot (or for the HPoH to think they're going there for a while, at least).

So, it is really convinient that they find a Divine Caster that happens to be the type that can't solve the problem.

Hence my question, was the role always supposed to be a FS, wich fits the needs of the plot so well? Or was the sequence of events that would get them to the Godsmoot different?

This obviously doesn't discount there being a different Divine Caster, but why would that caster not Resurrect Durkon then and there? Perhaps a low level caster, but he wouldn't be a High Priest of a Diety, would he? Maybe a Paladin, as a higher level Paladin still couldn't cast the spell.

I'm not familiar with D&D, but with the tons of books and whatnot the Favoured Soul probably isn't the only divine caster that doesn't have access to resurrection. I wouldn't even surprised if there would be some special feat/prestige class/whatever for Clerics that would prevent Clerics from casting specific spells. I just don't believe that Rich had some sort of outline with characters where there is a divine caster with Resurrection that he replaced with a divine caster without Resurrection, because that change would have an extremely huge impact on the story. From what Rich told in comments he planned some stuff over years (especially the whole Vampire!Durkon thing), and making such a change just feels odd to me.


B doesn't assume the FS has an impact on how the MAYOR plot unfolds, only the details. And I think it's clear that it did, if the Divine Caster they'd find was another class, Rich would have to explain why that character can't resurrect Durkon.

I guess it depends on what you define as mayor plot/plot details. Replacing the reason why Veldrina can't resurrect Durkon from "Class is Favoured Soul" to "some other valid 1-sentence D&D reason why the character is a divine caster without being able to resurrect Durkon" is something that potentially has ZERO impact on any parts of the plot. Such a change could have an equal dramatic impact on the story as changing the name of "Greysky City" to "Darkair Town".

I understand your description of B "Rich had thought of another way for the Order to get to the super secret meeting, and the Favoured Soul's appearance solved the problem in another, possibly more sensible, way" as "changes the plot" (sure not the main plot, but the not-main part of the plot is still plot).

[Cazero]

Apparently, a high priest is high level enough to have access to Resurection... unless he's multiclassed.
V mentionned the ancient elven gods of arcane might and knowledge at one point. Let's take the high priest of that. He would probably be :
-an elf
-cleric
-multiclassed wizard
-with a pinch of mystic theurge for good measure.

There you go. Not high enough cleric slots for Resurection yet, but still a high level spellcaster who fits the requirement for high priesthood.
The cameo just happened to fit that role in a more interesting way.

[Doug Lampert]

Most any other Divine class would have been able to resurrect Durkon after a rest,

Huh?!? There are 5 core non-prestige classes with divine casting, exactly ONE of them gets Resurrection.

Druid, nope.
Paladin, nope.
Ranger, nope.
Adept, nope.

Other than cleric, just what are all these other classes such that MOST any other divine class gets the spell?

[littlebum2002]

So, it is really convinient that they find a Divine Caster that happens to be the type that can't solve the problem.


They already found 8 Divine Casters who couldn't solve the problem. One more that couldn't cast 7th level spells wouldn't be that weird. So it's really not
"convenient" at all, it's more of a running theme. It would be more of an anomaly if she COULD cast Resurrection.


Among the only persons who would be difficult to cameo-ize are high-level clerics.

Unless, you know, the characters are going to a meeting where there will be dozens of high level clerics that will only appear for a few strips. Too bad that's not happening.

[martianmister]

d) Mysterious backer is actually Rich Burlew himself.

[The Giant]

Also, Veldrina's an ambassador for all the Western & elven churches despite being the favoured soul of a "really minor" goddess. So clearly the other guys' Godsmoot isn't a great priority for them.

The only reason I made Veldrina specifically the ambassador for all the Western & elven churches—rather than a regular attending high priest—is because she's an elf, and the elves don't worship the Northern Gods. (Such a representative would have still existed, but probably not as a named character.) She's the cleric of a "really minor" deity because I didn't want to introduce the actual deity that the "real" Veldrina worships in her D&D campaign to the setting, so I just handwaved it as not important.

Without Veldrina, Roy and Durkon would have simply met a priest of another Northern God who was running late on his or her way to the Godsmoot, and that priest probably would have been a druid. Or a cleric, but not high enough level. Or maybe I would have come up with some other reason they couldn't cast Resurrection, like multiclassing. I have no idea, because by the time I needed to think about that level of detail, I already knew about Veldrina, and her class fit perfectly as "some other reason."

[Keltest]

The only reason I made Veldrina specifically the ambassador for all the Western & elven churches—rather than a regular attending high priest—is because she's an elf, and the elves don't worship the Northern Gods. (Such a representative would have still existed, but probably not as a named character.) She's the cleric of a "really minor" deity because I didn't want to introduce the actual deity that the "real" Veldrina worships in her D&D campaign to the setting, so I just handwaved it as not important.

Without Veldrina, Roy and Durkon would have simply met a priest of another Northern God who was running late on his or her way to the Godsmoot, and that priest probably would have been a druid. Or a cleric, but not high enough level. Or maybe I would have come up with some other reason they couldn't cast Resurrection, like multiclassing. I have no idea, because by the time I needed to think about that level of detail, I already knew about Veldrina, and her class fit perfectly as "some other reason."

Out of curiosity, did you consider just having her worship the northern gods at any point? I feel like it would be more work to contrive a reason why every single elf in the world worships the same pantheon than it would be to say that, yeah, free will is a thing. Although clearly you haven't actually had to justify that first position, so maybe it wont be more work this way.

[kivzirrum]

And now we know!

Seems reasonable enough to me. One way or another, they were going to get to the Godsmoot with the aid of a divine caster who was unable to cast Resurrection. And Veldrina fit the bill. Seems the simplest of the possibilities, as well!

[The Giant]

Out of curiosity, did you consider just having her worship the northern gods at any point? I feel like it would be more work to contrive a reason why every single elf in the world worships the same pantheon than it would be to say that, yeah, free will is a thing. Although clearly you haven't actually had to justify that first position, so maybe it wont be more work this way.

Why would I even care? What does it matter? What story benefit is there to making her unusual in that manner? I don't need to contrive reasons for things that are thoroughly typical; I only need to justify things that deviate from the expected.

That said, favored souls are chosen for their role by the gods, not by the character themselves. You become a favored soul because one day, a god favors your soul and you say, "OK." So no, in this case, free will isn't the only consideration. There are probably even agreements in place among the gods forbidding them from choosing a favored soul of a race not from their continent.

EDIT: And on top of that, the "real" Veldrina worships a god from an elven pantheon, and one without a ready Norse analogue. Switching her would have moved her away from the character as submitted.

[Keltest]

Why would I even care? What does it matter? What story benefit is there to making her unusual in that manner? I don't need to contrive reasons for things that are thoroughly typical; I only need to justify things that deviate from the expected.

That said, favored souls are chosen for their role by the gods, not by the character themselves. You become a favored soul because one day, a god favors your soul and you say, "OK." So no, in this case, free will isn't the only consideration. There are probably even agreements in place among the gods forbidding them from choosing a favored soul of a race not from their continent.

EDIT: And on top of that, the "real" Veldrina worships a god from an elven pantheon, and one without a ready Norse analogue. Switching her would have moved her away from the character as submitted.

I ask because either way youd end up with a deviation from how the story had been presented up til that point. A mild one, sure, but still a deviation. Up until then this had been presented as a "North Only" thing.

Ah well, I guess I got my answer.

[kivzirrum]

I ask because either way youd end up with a deviation from how the story had been presented up til that point. A mild one, sure, but still a deviation. Up until then this had been presented as a "North Only" thing.

Ah well, I guess I got my answer.

Is that really a deviation, though? We've only known about the Godsmoot for a few pages, and for there to be a delegate to represent another pantheon isn't unlikely, even if the meeting is, for the most part, of the Northern pantheon.

[Keltest]

Is that really a deviation, though? We've only known about the Godsmoot for a few pages, and for there to be a delegate to represent another pantheon isn't unlikely, even if the meeting is, for the most part, of the Northern pantheon.

Up until now, everything has indicated that it is a gathering of northern priests. However I did misread the Giant's earlier comment; I had thought he said that the only reason that the West got a representative was because Veldrina needed a way to be involved. I missed the part where he said that it likely would have happened anyway, just not as a named character.

[dancrilis]

Up until now, everything has indicated that it is a gathering of northern priests.
Did we know for a fact that there was a gathering prior to 985 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html) the exact same strip that mentioned the elven cleric?

[kivzirrum]

Did we know for a fact that there was a gathering prior to 985 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0985.html) the exact same strip that mentioned the elven cleric?

It was vaguely hinted at a strip earlier in 984, but really I would say no, we did not. Which is why I would say it's not really a deviation.

[Keltest]

It was vaguely hinted at a strip earlier in 984, but really I would say no, we did not. Which is why I would say it's not really a deviation.

Perhaps it seems longer because were watching the strip update in real time. Oh well.

[kivzirrum]

Perhaps it seems longer because were watching the strip update in real time. Oh well.

Probably! :smallsmile:

[Snails]

The OP has it backwards IMO. What is weird is how 99% of clerics are 99% the same as every other cleric, with minor, usually forgettable variations for Domains. What is weird is that the cleric class is so utterly predictable in the spell lists, for every cleric of a certain rough power level.

The Favored Soul actually makes more sense in terms of what people expect from those "blessed" with special gift from specific god who possess nameable strengths and weaknesses and peculiarities.

[Yuki Akuma]

The OP has it backwards IMO. What is weird is how 99% of clerics are 99% the same as every other cleric, with minor, usually forgettable variations for Domains. What is weird is that the cleric class is so utterly predictable in the spell lists, for every cleric of a certain rough power level.

The Favored Soul actually makes more sense in terms of what people expect from those "blessed" with special gift from specific god who possess nameable strengths and weaknesses and peculiarities.

Too bad every Favoured Soul has an identical spell list - moreso than Clerics, actually! Favoured Souls don't have domains.

So two Favoured Souls of two separate and entirely different deities could still have exactly the same spells known, and can activate the same scrolls, wands and staves.

All Favoured Souls also uniformly get the same class abilities, with the only deviation being slight differences based on alignment. Clerics, meanwhile, at least get domain abilities to differentiate them.

Really, for being the 'chosen of the gods', Favoured Souls are annoyingly samey.

[Peelee]

Too bad every Favoured Soul has an identical spell list - moreso than Clerics, actually! Favoured Souls don't have domains.

So two Favoured Souls of two separate and entirely different deities could still have exactly the same spells known, and can activate the same scrolls, wands and staves.

All Favoured Souls also uniformly get the same class abilities, with the only deviation being slight differences based on alignment. Clerics, meanwhile, at least get domain abilities to differentiate them.

Really, for being the 'chosen of the gods', Favoured Souls are annoyingly samey.

How do you figure all Favored Soul spell lists are identical?

[littlebum2002]

I ask because either way youd end up with a deviation from how the story had been presented up til that point. A mild one, sure, but still a deviation. Up until then this had been presented as a "North Only" thing.

Ah well, I guess I got my answer.

Think about it like the US Congress. The ONLY people who get to vote in Congress are those elected by one of the 50 states, but yet Guam, Puerto Rico, DC and others can still send non-voting members to observe. So the followers of the non-Northern gods can still come to this as a courtesy but it's still mainly for the Northern gods.

[Draz74]

How do you figure all Favored Soul spell lists are identical?

Technically, in 3e D&D parlance, a character's "spell list" is all the spells that they could have chosen from, not the spells that they actually chose.

Favored Souls are likely to have pretty different lists of Spells Known, but they all have the same Spell List (i.e. the non-domain Cleric spell list).

The 3e divine caster class that really gets it right is the UA Spontaneous Cleric Variant. It gets a few Spells Known from the general Cleric list, plus knows all of the spells from its Domains and casts them spontaneously. Voila, priests of different gods actually play differently!

[littlebum2002]

Technically, in 3e D&D parlance, a character's "spell list" is all the spells that they could have chosen from, not the spells that they actually chose.

Favored Souls are likely to have pretty different lists of Spells Known, but they all have the same Spell List (i.e. the non-domain Cleric spell list).

The 3e divine caster class that really gets it right is the UA Spontaneous Cleric Variant. It gets a few Spells Known from the general Cleric list, plus knows all of the spells from its Domains and casts them spontaneously. Voila, priests of different gods actually play differently!

But saying "all Favored Souls can choose spells from the same ginormous spell list" does not lead to Yuki Akuma's assertion that "All Favored Souls are the same". That's like saying all Wizards and Sorcerers are the same because they have to choose their spells from the same 1000 or so spells available to wizards and sorcerers. But that's not true, if you look at a group of level 14 Favored Souls (or wizards, or sorcerers), it will be incredibly unlikely that any two of them would have the exact same spells known list, making them not, in fact, the same at all. On the other hand, two clerics who have a small discussion before praying can literally have the exact same spell list the next morning, minus one spell per level if they don't have the same domains. THAT'S sameness.

[Xapi]

The only reason I made Veldrina specifically the ambassador for all the Western & elven churches—rather than a regular attending high priest—is because she's an elf, and the elves don't worship the Northern Gods. (Such a representative would have still existed, but probably not as a named character.) She's the cleric of a "really minor" deity because I didn't want to introduce the actual deity that the "real" Veldrina worships in her D&D campaign to the setting, so I just handwaved it as not important.

Without Veldrina, Roy and Durkon would have simply met a priest of another Northern God who was running late on his or her way to the Godsmoot, and that priest probably would have been a druid. Or a cleric, but not high enough level. Or maybe I would have come up with some other reason they couldn't cast Resurrection, like multiclassing. I have no idea, because by the time I needed to think about that level of detail, I already knew about Veldrina, and her class fit perfectly as "some other reason."

Thanks for the reply Rich, I think I can consider my OP question as answered:


c) Rich knew they were gonna go to the Godsmoot, but he didn't know how yet because he wasn't that far along into the details of the strip. Veldrina solved it for him.

[Snails]

The 3e divine caster class that really gets it right is the UA Spontaneous Cleric Variant. It gets a few Spells Known from the general Cleric list, plus knows all of the spells from its Domains and casts them spontaneously. Voila, priests of different gods actually play differently!

In principal, I completely agree. But getting the Domains right becomes a tricky job for the designers. I suspect the designers felt boxed in by the idea that the players want to always have spontaneous healing as standard, because the players of clerics want the option to prep interesting spells in the morning, even if many of those interesting spells are eventually burned for healing.

Yes, I was imprecise about the words "spell list", but my point still stands. The fact is that the Known Spells is effectively 99% the same for all Clerics always, no matter the degree of dissimilarity of their deities. The number of Domain spells in the PHB that are noteworthy enough for the PCs to care about the BBEGs domains can be counted on one hand.

The Favored Soul has such a relatively small list of Known Spells, there is no particular reason to expect two to be so similar (even if that can happen).

[Ashtagon]

The only reason I made Veldrina specifically the ambassador for all the Western & elven churches—rather than a regular attending high priest—is because she's an elf, and the elves don't worship the Northern Gods. (Such a representative would have still existed, but probably not as a named character.) She's the cleric of a "really minor" deity because I didn't want to introduce the actual deity that the "real" Veldrina worships in her D&D campaign to the setting, so I just handwaved it as not important.

Without Veldrina, Roy and Durkon would have simply met a priest of another Northern God who was running late on his or her way to the Godsmoot, and that priest probably would have been a druid. Or a cleric, but not high enough level. Or maybe I would have come up with some other reason they couldn't cast Resurrection, like multiclassing. I have no idea, because by the time I needed to think about that level of detail, I already knew about Veldrina, and her class fit perfectly as "some other reason."

Thread answered.

Before I saw this, my guess would have been that not-Veldrina was an aide for an attending priest who needed to fetch some extra supplies of gnomish wine or whatever to his high priest at the Godsmoot.