A happy ending - for you

[Illsbane]

A bleak possibility occurred to me as I thought on the Oracle's prophecy to Elan.

If the Snarl is real and it is an actual soul-destroying horror... what do you all think the chances are of it ending Elan?
If Elen falls into the Snarl's clutches in such a way that he can stop it from doing the same to Haley and the others, his last thought might be "Yeah. This is totally worth it." I could see him smile as he fades from existence. :smallfrown:

It just occurred to me.
We all know the Oracle plays with words. What's a happy ending for Elan need not be happy for anyone else. At all.

[Buckethead]

I don't think the story will get that depressing, and I KNOW Elan would feel cheated (by his prophecy) if his happy ending was him having his soul erased, even if he saved some people he cared about. I'll bet him and Haley are going to survive.

[ti'esar]

For the life of me I'll never understand why people keep thinking that Elan's prophecy - which the Giant has explicitly described as his way of telling the audience "It might get scary for a little while, but it'll all work out in the end" - is going to subverted in some unpleasant fashion. I mean, yes, he also notes that Durkon's reaction to his prophecy goes to show that what might count as a happy ending is up to the individual - but come on.

[Flame of Anor]

Yeah, I'm with ti'esar. The Oracle's answers have sometimes been unhelpful, but never deceptive.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Elan getting unmade would not be a happy ending to the story from his perspective. Even considering "the peace and safety of the grave" type of interpretations, the question was whether the story will have a happy ending ("yes, for you at least"), not whether Elan will.

[Kantaki]

Considerring Durkon I wouldn’t say the Oracles predictions are never deceptive. I mean returning home posthumously is not the same as returning home as the meatpuppet of a dark spirit serving Hel.

That aside I really doubt that Elans prophecy means he will be happy when he meets his end. A more conventional Happy End with Xykon stopped, the Snarl being neutralized as a threat and his fathers plans foiled, the Order of the Stick getting their happily ever after (or a brand new adventure) seems more likely.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Considering Durkon I wouldn’t say the Oracles predictions are never deceptive. I mean returning home posthumously is not the same as returning home as the meatpuppet of a dark spirit serving Hel.

I don't understand this objection. Deceptive as in "true but misleading" sure, deceptive as in "not accurate" no way. Even though he might return home as the meatpuppet of a dark spirit serving Hel, that would totally be returning "posthumously", even if the corpse being animated is an unexpected element.

[Kantaki]

Re rodneyAnonymous: Maybe its just that little sliver of lawful goodness inside me moving but I would call misleading someone either by giving false information or by withholding useful information for your personal gain - even if it is just amusement - deception.

[Mike Havran]

I would not call that a happy ending. A heroic one? Yep. A bittersweet one? Maybe. But happy? Nah.

[Bulldog Psion]

Elan, despite everything, is a cheerful kind of guy. I don't think he's much into Greek tragedy type stuff; to him, happy means sunshine, puppets, and everyone having a good time and being friends.

If he was a bleak, brooding bard, I could see it. But the chap has a fairly sunny personality. I think we need to define "happy ending" in those terms also.

[Keltest]

Re rodneyAnonymous: Maybe its just that little sliver of lawful goodness inside me moving but I would call misleading someone either by giving false information or by withholding useful information for your personal gain - even if it is just amusement - deception.

I don't believe this is a lie of omission in this case. Durkon is returning home after he died. That is entirely true and entirely in keeping with the intent of the question. Durkon's deepest (well, one of them) concern was that he would die somewhere in the wilderness and nobody would be able to bring his body back home. Durkon wasn't at all concerned with the circumstances of his death even after he got his answer, nor was he concerned with the idea that if he DIDNT get killed he would never return home in his natural lifespan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm definitely with ti'esar on this one. The Giant has said that the point of Elan's prophecy is to remind the readership that OOTS is comedy, not a tragedy. As such, I find it highly unlikely that we will see this manner of subversion that doesn't even really fit with Elan's character.

[kivzirrum]

For the life of me I'll never understand why people keep thinking that Elan's prophecy - which the Giant has explicitly described as his way of telling the audience "It might get scary for a little while, but it'll all work out in the end" - is going to subverted in some unpleasant fashion. I mean, yes, he also notes that Durkon's reaction to his prophecy goes to show that what might count as a happy ending is up to the individual - but come on.

100% agreed. I'd bet my life savings on Elan, at least, getting a real happy ending. Not some dark subversion, but an actual happy ending.

[Kish]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15874733&postcount=61) is what Rich thinks of the kind of story that would have a GRIMDARK ending because happy endings are insufficiently tragically-hip.

(And if you think Durkon's story is over, you've missed something somewhere.)

[kivzirrum]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15874733&postcount=61) is what Rich thinks of the kind of story that would have a GRIMDARK ending because happy endings are insufficiently tragically-hip.

(And if you think Durkon's story is over, you've missed something somewhere.)

Which is very gratifying for me, as my friends and I are always having debates on how works of fiction should end (or should have ended)--with many of them favoring pointlessly dark ending that are devoid of substance, and seem to exist only for creating an effect, rather than concluding a story.

The popularity of this kind of storytelling infuriates me.

[Illsbane]

Note to self: Do not post looney ideas that pop up in my head when feeling exhausted on every level and suffering a mean headache. >_<;

[Murk]

Note to self: Do not post looney ideas that pop up in my head when feeling exhausted on every level and suffering a mean headache. >_<;

We need those kind of ideas on the forum. You're the real hero here.

[theasl]

Note to self: Do not post looney ideas that pop up in my head when feeling exhausted on every level and suffering a mean headache. >_<;

Compared to some of the other ideas on this forum, it's not even that crazy! :smalltongue:

[blunk]

Even though he might return home as the meatpuppet of a dark spirit serving Hel, that would totally be returning "posthumously", even if the corpse being animated is an unexpected element.Arguably, it's one of the few ways to fulfill the prophecy. What if he'd simply been killed and his body brought back to Dwarven Lands? Sure, his *corpse* would be "home", but *he* would be in Valhalla or wherever. But as a vampire, he can be both posthumous *and* returned.

[Bulldog Psion]

Arguably, it's one of the few ways to fulfill the prophecy. What if he'd simply been killed and his body brought back to Dwarven Lands? Sure, his *corpse* would be "home", but *he* would be in Valhalla or wherever. But as a vampire, he can be both posthumous *and* returned.

Really, the only other way would be death and resurrection, as far as I can see.

[Ornithologist]

Really, Elan's question was the best one of the lot.

The others are all very specific questions, which are very easy to make technically truthful awnsers:

Durkon: Posthumusly
Roy: Girads Gate (forgot the azure gate of all things)
V: by saying 4 words etc.
Belkar: yes (killing the Oracle, but not specifiying who in the list was to be killed)
Haley: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Elan: Yes, For you at least

Elan's happy ending has several requirements:

Elan Lives
Haley Lives
Roy Lives
The snarl does not end all of creation
Xyklon goes down
The empire of blood falls ( not appearing in this series)


I gues it boils down to a game I once was GM of. One of my players had an ability to ask me 3 yes or no questions at a single time every session. In the 3 years RL of games we played 95% of those questions had me give errornous awnsers because of how they were wording them. I was required to give truthful awnsers if they passed a check and falsehoods if they fail, with me rolling the check in secret. For those D20 people the difficultly was around 15 or so. So 75% chance of sucess before we add on stats.

[Illsbane]

It makes me wonder about Belkar's ultimate fate, though.
I always got the impression he got along better with Elan than any of the other party-members, and that Elan liked him well enough...

[SirKazum]

It makes me wonder about Belkar's ultimate fate, though.
I always got the impression he got along better with Elan than any of the other party-members, and that Elan liked him well enough...

I was gonna say "what?!" but then I realized Elan has never shown absolute and utter disgust and contempt for Belkar, so... yeah, I guess, he's the one who likes him best. By virtue of generally not caring about him at all, which is why Belkar's and Elan's prophecies don't exactly collide. And his rare use of sarcasm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html) does seem to indicate he understands Belkar isn't exactly someone to look up to.

[Kish]

Elan wanted Roy to leave Belkar in Lord Shojo's prison when the Order was first taken to Azure City, remember?

[littlebum2002]

You're saying that Elan being undone by the Snarl would be a HAPPY ending for him?

http://i.imgur.com/yTTpsW5m.jpg

[rodneyAnonymous]

Re rodneyAnonymous: Maybe its just that little sliver of lawful goodness inside me moving but I would call misleading someone either by giving false information or by withholding useful information for your personal gain - even if it is just amusement - deception.

As far as we know, the Oracle has never made a false prediction , and "withholding useful information" is a standard that is impossible to enforce: define "useful", and the Oracle is not obligated to be helpful anyway. Lying (true/false) isn't the same thing as being deceptive (helpful/misleading), they are separate axes.

[Keltest]

The Oracle has never made a false prediction that we've seen, and "withholding useful information" is a standard that is impossible to enforce: define "useful", and the Oracle is not obligated to be helpful. True/false and helpful/misleading are separate axes.

Indeed. The Oracle is only obligated to answer the question asked. There is nothing that says he must provide justification or context for any of his answers, and he has no reason to want to. He gets the same payment regardless of the usefulness of his answers (and of the question asked), and he almost certainly has a monopoly on predicting the future on that scale.

[dancrilis]

We don't know if the Oracle gets predictions wrong at times, his track record for glowing predictions is perfect for the strip but his comments about stuff that would happen have not been and he has tried to alter the known outcome at least once implying a lack of perfect knowledge and further implying that free will may exists and as such that individuals can choose to change things.

[Keltest]

We don't know if the Oracle gets predictions wrong at times, his track record for glowing predictions is perfect for the strip but his comments about stuff that would happen have not been and he has tried to alter the known outcome at least once implying a lack of perfect knowledge and further implying that free will may exists and as such that individuals can choose to change things.

The thing is, free will doesn't exist since its a webcomic, and the Oracle dances on the ashes of the fourth wall.

Also, where has the oracle ever been wrong, even in casual conversation?

[dancrilis]

Also, where has the oracle ever been wrong, even in casual conversation?

In my opinion he was wrong in panel 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), note that I am aware it could be read that he meant the next time Roy physically passes the Memory Charm and so could be referring to a future event - but it is not how I read it. My reading of it had him thinking that Roy would forget everything other than the freebie after he was dismissed. Roy agrees with this in panel 12).

Further in panel 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) he says that it was worth a shot offering the theories, implying that the outcome was in question (despite having the village setup for his vengeance indicating that he knew what was coming).

[Keltest]

In my opinion he was wrong in panel 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), note that I am aware it could be read that he meant the next time Roy physically passes the Memory Charm and so could be referring to a future event - but it is not how I read it. My reading of it had him thinking that Roy would forget everything other than the freebie after he was dismissed. Roy agrees with this in panel 12).

Further in panel 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) he says that it was worth a shot offering the theories, implying that the outcome was in question (despite having the village setup for his vengeance indicating that he knew what was coming).

You are, of course, assuming that every single comment he makes is based off of his knowledge of the future. I should also point out that had the oracle not provoked Belkar, he would not have been stabbed to death. That doesn't mean he wants to be killed though, so if he can fulfil the prophecy without being its victim, nice.

Also, he wasn't wrong. Roy never passed through the memory charm.

[hroþila]

I don't think that "worth a shot" in #567 means he believed he actually had a chance of escaping what he knew was coming. In my opinion, it's just that he couldn't resist giving it a try despite knowing it was completely irrational and wasn't going to work. Because hey, what if that was the one time things worked differently for him? Even though he's probably been killed by clients and raised immediately afterwards plenty of times by now, it's still a pretty traumatic experience.

I disagree about #572 too. Might as well say that the fact that he keeps being interrupted during bathtime means he's not infallible. I see no reason personally not to go with Roy's interpretation rather than to posit that "free will" may trump what the Oracle knows.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I also don't think "worth a shot" implies the outcome was actually in question. If the Oracle's death was truly inevitable, an attempt to change it was not in fact worth it, even if that attempt took very little time and energy. But it's not like he's completely infallible in every way or that he always thinks and acts perfectly rationally.

[Ornithologist]

Really, the only oracle prediction that we can work with in regards to being incorrect is Blackwings. "Caw caw etc" "Try ginkgo bilboa." We can only assume it's about getting V to remember blackwing.

Who knows really, if it helped?

I don't think the Giant cares enough to elaborate anyway.

[falsedot]

Considerring Durkon I wouldn’t say the Oracles predictions are never deceptive. I mean returning home posthumously is not the same as returning home as the meatpuppet of a dark spirit serving Hel.

Only we have not seen yet if the prophecy will be fullfilled that way. Yes, it makes sense, in fact it seems obvious but we dont know yet. Durkon could just return after getting ressed or after getting ressed and dying again

[Porthos]

I would point out that DURKON interpeted it at the time as he would be dead when his body was returned to the Dwarven Lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html).

The idea of "his soul would have been in Valhalla, therefore it wouldn't have counted" seems needless nitpicky to me as a way to invalidate it.

Now, mind you, IF (as I suspect) Durkon does sucessfully get ressed at some point, he could have gone home and not invalidate the Oracle's prophecy. But if his body was buried in the dwarven homelands, that would have been just as good.

Now as for being "deceptive", of course they are. They wouldn't be any fun if some/most of them weren't. :smallwink:

[Benthesquid]

"For you, anyways," seems to imply that there are those for whom it will not be a happy ending. I don't think this is likely to involve Elan's death, but I'd say there is at least one member of the party for whom it will not work out happily. Now, that may very well just mean Belkar. And possibly V, who, as things are looking now, will still be left with a long, hard role to redemption once Xykon's defeated and the story ends.