Improved Grab

[Aplostor]

I need help with the special attack Improved Grab. I'm posting a new thread beacuse I feel like I need something more then a quick Q/A.

When I use Improved Grab and I decide to take -20 on grapple checks, can I use my other attacks on the opponent i grabbed? This is the relevant phrase:

If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.English is not my native language (and I think it is clear, based on this post), so i can't decide if that "other" means that he can attack ALSO other creatures or ONLY other creatures.

Thanks for your time.

[Hiro Quester]

Ordinarily you can use natural weapons in a grapple, but at -5 for the secondary attacks, and an additional -4 for use in a grapple.


Edit: they are secondary attacks because you are using primary attacks to grapple (as many as you have BAB to make iterative attacks). You use the "Attack your Opponent" option to do that.

This option of taking -20 makes the natural weapons also available to attack those you are not grappling. However, as this Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) post about improved Grab notes, this option is probably only going to be useful for really big monsters (e.g. Giant Squid or Kraken). Few monsters are going to be able to take -20 and succeed on the grapple check, and have the reach to be able to attack others.

Of course, some animals with improved grab can use other attacks freely in a grapple, because those are explicitly mentioned in the creature's attacks, such as a Tiger's rake.

And those can use all their natural weapons in the attack sequence that initiates the grapple, that is, before grappling. E.g. Tiger gets bite, claw, claw, and invokes improved grab + rake if any of those initial attacks succeed.

[Khedrac]

The problem here is that English is pretty much always open to interpretation.


and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents
This could be read to mean that one's remaining attacks can only be made against other opponents (i.e. not the one being held). Indeed, some RAW theorists will probably claim just that.

However, most of English is context, and I would not read this phrase that way.
I would read that this is clarifying that: though normally when grappling an opponent one can only attack that opponent, in this case, because one is not considered grappled, one can attack others in addition to the grappled opponent.

This is not something I had actually thought of, and it makes monsters with improved grab even nastier than they already were.
I am confident that regardless to what anyone else says, it is a valid reading of the English rules - other language versions might offer further clarification however.

[Khedrac]

And those can use all their natural weapons in the attack sequence that initiates the grapple, that is, before grappling. E.g. Tiger gets bite, claw, claw, and invokes improved grab + rake if any of those initial attacks succeed.
Where do you get this from? Surely if the attack sequence is "Claw, Claw, Bite" and the improved grab fires off the claw attacks, then the improved grab must be resolved before the bite (which could put the bite at -5 for being used in a grapple).
Since attacks must be resolved in attack bonus order, the creature cannot attack "Claw, Bite, Claw" to avoid this penalty.
The same applies to creature that have a "Bite, Claw, Claw" with a grapple from the Bite.

[Hiro Quester]

Where do you get this from? Surely if the attack sequence is "Claw, Claw, Bite" and the improved grab fires off the claw attacks, then the improved grab must be resolved before the bite (which could put the bite at -5 for being used in a grapple).
Since attacks must be resolved in attack bonus order, the creature cannot attack "Claw, Bite, Claw" to avoid this penalty.
The same applies to creature that have a "Bite, Claw, Claw" with a grapple from the Bite.

Hm. You might be right there. But it would be at -9 (-5 as normal for secondary attacks, and -4 for being used in a grapple). I usually roll all my dice at once, and all my natural attacks are secondary attacks at -5 (my Druid has a level of monk, and do makes unarmed strikes as primary attacks).

[Aplostor]

This option of taking -20 makes the natural weapons also available to attack those you are not grappling. However, as this Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) post about improved Grab notes, this option is probably only going to be useful for really big monsters (e.g. Giant Squid or Kraken). Few monsters are going to be able to take -20 and succeed on the grapple check, and have the reach to be able to attack others.
I am planning to use Multigrab and Greater Multigrab (Savage Species), so the penalty is not a problem.

If I understand Improved Grab correctly ("it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself"), I should not suffer the -4 penalty for the grapple option "Attack your Opponent", since I am not considered grappled.


they are secondary attacks because you are using primary attacks to grapple (as many as you have BAB to make iterative attacks).So, correct me if I am wrong, when I grab someone with Improved Grab and I decide to take the -20 penalty, I can use X grapple options (where X is a number derived from my BAB) against the grappled opponent and then I can use my natural attacks however I want?

If that's true, can I use these natural attacks against the grappled opponents? If the answer is yes, can I grapple him again?

[Hiro Quester]

If I understand Improved Grab correctly ("it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself"), I should not suffer the -4 penalty for the grapple option "Attack your Opponent", since I am not considered grappled.

So, correct me if I am wrong, when I grab someone with Improved Grab and I decide to take the -20 penalty, I can use X grapple options (where X is a number derived from my BAB) against the grappled opponent and then I can use my natural attacks however I want?

If that's true, can I use these natural attacks against the grappled opponents? If the answer is yes, can I grapple him again?

That sounds about right. You aren't grappled, so your other natural weapons could attack at their normal penalty. And the body part grappling can try to pin, damage, etc.

And I guess you could grab the opponent again, with another tentacle (or whatever). But it doesn't seem you get much advantage from it. No matter how many limbs you grapple with, you can only make as many grapple actions as your BAB dictates (and -5 for each successive one would still apply). You could do that whether you have grappled them with one limb or two.

And it seems that your second grapple doesn't add to their escape difficulty, either.


When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.


If their grapple check beats the highest grapple check in a multiple grapple, the grappled creature escapes. Your extra grapple doesn't change that if they beat your grapple check, they escape.

If I was DM, though, I might interpret this extra limb to give you advantage. You roll a D20 for each limb in the grapple, and they would have to beat the highest. But that's RAI, not RAW.

[Aplostor]

That sounds about right. You aren't grappled, so your other natural weapons could attack at their normal penalty. And the body part grappling can try to pin, damage, etc.

And I guess you could grab the opponent again, with another tentacle (or whatever). But it doesn't seem you get much advantage from it. No matter how many limbs you grapple with, you can only make as many grapple actions as your BAB dictates (and -5 for each successive one would still apply). You could do that whether you have grappled them with one limb or two.

And it seems that your second grapple doesn't add to their escape difficulty, either.
You don't need to add extra difficulties for your opponent if you have Constrict, a Nature's Warrior level (expecially if you are a Moonbest, MM2). Each grapple started is going to do a lot of extra damage, then, you just need to pin your opponent with a grapple option and you can release all the tentacles.

I have a last question (in order to know if I understood everything): the option Damage your Opponent substitutes an attack given by BAB, while the option "Attack your Opponent" (with a natural attack) doesn't substitute an attack given by BAB and can be made with all your natural weapons, right?

Thank you for your time, i really appreciate this.

[Hiro Quester]

I have a last question (in order to know if I understood everything): the option Damage your Opponent substitutes an attack given by BAB, while the option "Attack your Opponent" (with a natural attack) doesn't substitute an attack given by BAB and can be made with all your natural weapons, right?


It doesn't seem so. At the beginning of the "If You're Grappling" section it says that the following list of things you can do take the place of an attack, and that you get as many of those as you have BAB. It applies to both damage (using opposed grapple check) and Attack (using an attack, at -4).



When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

This seems to apply to both Damage and Attack actions.

I honestly don't know now whether all your natural attacks can be used in a grapple like they would in a full attack sequence. It does not look like you can. This might be an "talk with your DM and come to a shared interpretation" situation.

Of course, if you have stayed out of the grapple (taken the -20 option) you can use other limbs to make natural attacks, like attacking into another's grapple. But if you are grappling, it seems that you are limited to as many attempts to either damage or attack as you have iterative BAB attacks.

[Aplostor]

It doesn't seem so. At the beginning of the "If You're Grappling" section it says that the following list of things you can do take the place of an attack, and that you get as many of those as you have BAB. It applies to both damage (using opposed grapple check) and Attack (using an attack, at -4).
Okay, so both the options requires the use of a "grapple action" (I know it does not exist, but I cannot find a proper term). What made me think that the Attack your Opponent option (with a natural attack) was not a "grapple action" was this phrase: "If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling". However, the Rules Compendium says that the Attack yout Opponent option is a "grapple action".

So, that's clear.


Of course, if you have stayed out of the grapple (taken the -20 option) you can use other limbs to make natural attacks, like attacking into another's grapple. But if you are grappling, it seems that you are limited to as many attempts to either damage or attack as you have iterative BAB attacks.
The best interpretation I managed to find is:
- When I am in a grapple, normally, I can make X grapple action, where X is determined by my BAB.
- When I take the -20 penalty, I am not considered grappled, so I can use my remaining attacks against other opponents (it says so in the Improved Grab's description). In conclusion, I still have my X grapple action in order to damage the grappled opponent (using a full-round-action, based on Rules Compendium's rules about grapple), but, unlike a normal grapple, I can use my reamaining attack (natural attacks).

If someone could prove me right/wrong, I would really appreciate that.

Anyway, there's still a big point: if a creature takes the -20 penalty, can she attack the same opponent in order to start a new grapple (dealing again constrict damage)?