Bucklers and Parrying daggers.

[1Forge]

So I do a lot of IRL fencing and I watch a lot of people use bucklers and parryng daggers in their bouts (a bout is a duel). I DM so I was wondering how I could impliment them. So far I decided to give bucklers a +1 to AC ( if proficient) and for parrying daggers (If you dont know what parrying daggers are look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger ) also give a +1, but only for melee, no bonus vs ranged or combat. Does this seem fair?( they would still have to be proficient)

Also I might add "sword breakers" but those rules are still pending.

p.s. classes with proficiency in bucklers would probably be: fighter, ranger, paladin, cleric, and bard. Classes with proficiency with parrying daggers might be: fighter, paladin, rogue, ranger, cleric, bard, and monk.

EDIT: Read all the way through or you'll miss some ruling changes we make along the way (like dex requirements, swordbreakers, and a discussion on the dual wielder feat)

[Kane0]

I'd be tempted to make it even simpler.

Bucklers give +1 to ac and are usable by anyone proficient in shields. Probably give some other bonus to make them competitive with shields, like having your shield hand free or something.

Parrying daggers are martial weapons that grant +1 to AC and otherwise function as a dagger (minus the ability to be thrown).

[Submortimer]

I'd be tempted to make it even simpler.

Bucklers give +1 to ac and are usable by anyone proficient in shields. Probably give some other bonus to make them competitive with shields, like having your shield hand free or something.

Parrying daggers are martial weapons that grant +1 to AC and otherwise function as a dagger (minus the ability to be thrown).

I'd make a slight amendment to that. Parrying dagger increases the AC bonus granted from Dual Wielder to +2.

[Safety Sword]

I'd be tempted to make it even simpler.

Bucklers give +1 to ac and are usable by anyone proficient in shields. Probably give some other bonus to make them competitive with shields, like having your shield hand free or something.

Parrying daggers are martial weapons that grant +1 to AC and otherwise function as a dagger (minus the ability to be thrown).

I'm not understanding why you need bucklers.

There's already a Dual Wielder feat that adds +1 AC. A buckler that doesn't use your hands is just going to be a free extra +1 AC. So now you have the AC of a shield wielder but a secondary weapon too. Or worse, a two handed weapon.

It seems like a something for nothing.

If you use a shield you don't get to use two handed weapons, right? There has to be a compensating disadvantage if you get extra AC from the buckler.

Edit: If there was a feat that was balanced that might be a way to implement it. But a piece of equipment that you need a feat to use seems to be a bit much for me.

[TheOOB]

Couple of things.

Bucklers are parrying daggers are very out of time period/setting for D&D. Also, the shield rules as is work just fine for a buckler.

[Kane0]

Couple of things.

Bucklers are parrying daggers are very out of time period/setting for D&D. Also, the shield rules as is work just fine for a buckler.

Dude, the DMG has grenades and ray guns.


-Snip-

Well, how about granting disadvantage on attack rolls with a weapon your using with your buckler hand? Or just not allowing it entirely.
I can't think of many other things to do with a buckler to make them a solid decision over a regular shield apart from a stylistic point of view (which is totally valid, don't get me wrong).

I like the idea of stacking a parrying dagger with dual wielder to equal a shield's AC.

[Sindeloke]

Couple of things.

Bucklers are parrying daggers are very out of time period/setting for D&D. Also, the shield rules as is work just fine for a buckler.

There is no "time period/setting" for D&D. You've got full plate alongside alongside chain shirts alongside druids, you've got lances and cavalry alongside nunchaku and wuxia Samurai and karate masters and greek fire just for fun, you've got Arthurian knights standing side-by-side with raging viking Berserkers, and yet despite the aforementioned full plate and Samurai types, there aren't any guns.

Most significantly, there are rapiers, which is what parrying daggers go with.

That said, I agree they'd kind of interfere with Two-Weapon AC boosting.

[Giant2005]

Just boost a regular shield's AC bonus to +3. That way +1 AC parrying daggers and bucklers still come with sufficient opportunity cost while also being productive.
Because that amounts to a +1 AC to basically everybody, you might want to increase the enemy's to-hit by 1 to maintain balance... Although that basically equates to those items being little more than an equipment tax, but it is an equipment tax with flavour.

[Safety Sword]

Well, how about granting disadvantage on attack rolls with a weapon your using with your buckler hand? Or just not allowing it entirely.
I can't think of many other things to do with a buckler to make them a solid decision over a regular shield apart from a stylistic point of view (which is totally valid, don't get me wrong).

I like the idea of stacking a parrying dagger with dual wielder to equal a shield's AC.

If you're doing it for style only, then use the rules for shields and say it's a buckler.

If you want to make it give you a mechanical advantage (+ to AC) then it needs to have a drawback similar in scope.

If you wanted to use a parrying dagger and gain +2 to AC I'd run it like a shield. No attacks with the parrying dagger because you're always defending with that hand or an attack that mechanically does the same thing as a shield bash but refluffed to be stabby and daggery.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that any option you give shouldn't be stronger than the base options are.


Just boost a regular shield's AC bonus to +3. That way +1 AC parrying daggers and bucklers still come with sufficient opportunity cost while also being productive.
Because that amounts to a +1 AC to basically everybody, you might want to increase the enemy's to-hit by 1 to maintain balance... Although that basically equates to those items being little more than an equipment tax, but it is an equipment tax with flavour.

I wouldn't do that because as you said I have to modify the attack of everyone in the game to compensate. That'd be just another thing I have to remember..

[Giant2005]

I think the proposed Parrying Dagger and Buckler could work.
Just rule it that Bucklers can't be used with 2-handed weapons and it is fine. The advantage can be that they are function when using a Versatile weapon with two-hands however. The insignificant extra damage isn't really worth the loss of 1 AC for not using a real shield but it is at least offers some form of compensation for those that want to use a Buckler anyway.
As for Parrying Daggers, I think they are quite okay as described. Sure it is just a straight buff but not an overwhelming one and probably not even enough of one. It might sound like Dual Wilder + Parrying Dagger would render shilds obsolete but imo it still wouldn't compete with Shields. Sword-and-Baord + Shield Master would still be greater than Dual-Wielder + Parrying Dagger.

[Cybren]

I'm not understanding why you need bucklers.

There's already a Dual Wielder feat that adds +1 AC. A buckler that doesn't use your hands is just going to be a free extra +1 AC. So now you have the AC of a shield wielder but a secondary weapon too. Or worse, a two handed weapon.

It seems like a something for nothing.

If you use a shield you don't get to use two handed weapons, right? There has to be a compensating disadvantage if you get extra AC from the buckler.

Edit: If there was a feat that was balanced that might be a way to implement it. But a piece of equipment that you need a feat to use seems to be a bit much for me.

Historically and realistically, bucklers use your hands. Shields were strapped to the arm and bucklers were held in the hand. This is one of those weird things that D&D just decided to do backwards because Gygax and Arneson did the best research they could but didn't have the internet to do it.

[Kane0]

Sword-and-Baord + Shield Master would still be greater than Dual-Wielder + Parrying Dagger.

Yeah, pretty much that.

[1Forge]

I'm still not letting parrying daggers give an ac buff vs Ranged ot magic that wouldn't make any sense. Also buklers were designed to be used in your hand ( no two handed crazyness) but I would go as far as allowing everyone to be able to use them. Bucklers are notoriously easy to use and unlike sheilds were very light. Also I can't just use sheilds and call em bucklers that would be like using a crossbow and calling it a slingshots, bucklers are very different ( sheilds are heavy and are strapped to your arm, bucklers are light and you hold a handwl on the back) also the +2 for sheilds is using the rules for half cover ( also a +2) bucklers don't cover you nearly as much.

Heres what I leaning towards: Parrying daggers give a +1 to ac as long as you don't attack with it and dedicate it to parrying (two weapon defense dosent stack but allows you to attack with it.) Bucklers give a +1 to ac also but they also protect vs ranged attacks.

[Ninja_Prawn]

My 2cp: keep it simple. A buckler is a club, a parrying dagger is a dagger or shield. Get the +1AC from the feat. It may not be a perfect simulation of real life, but it's easy to implement and fits the 5e ethos.

Since daggers and clubs are strictly suboptimal in most situations, I'd be tempted to let longswords and rapiers count as light finesse when you've got a buckler or parrying dagger in the other hand.

[AmbientRaven]

I actually have both of these in my house-rules

Buckler
Requires: Shield proficiency
+1 AC; Versatile Use
5 GP
Versatile Use: if you are using a weapon with the versatile property, you may use the weapon two handed. if you do you lose the +1AC from the Buckler, and gain a -1Hit to the weapon attack, this persists until the beginning of your next turn.

Reasoning: it was based from the pathfinder buckler after our Paladin lamented that versatile is almost completely useless. It has worked VERY well in game, giving my players more options in how to use their weapons.

Tower Shield
Requires: 13 Str, Heavy Armour Proficiency, Shield proficiency
+2 AC; Ability: Shield Defence
60 GP
Shield Defence: At the start of your turn you can declare you are going into Shield Defence mode. When you do you get disadvantage on attacks. You gain Half cover against all attacks.

Reasoning: One of my players was a ex-legionnaire. When trying to work out if there was anything that helped show a tower shield we came up with this. He unfortunately died a few weeks in, but, the shield worked well. It captured the feel well, though could do with more play testing.

Sword Breaker
Requires: 13 Dexterity
15gp; 1D4 Piercing, Defensive Parry, Finesse
Defensive Parry: If you do not attack with this weapon as a Bonus Action you gain +1 AC until the beginning of your following turn.

Reasoning: It helped balanced dex classes to fighters with their bucklers. A player played a fencer (rapier/dagger) chaarcter and this just seemed to make sense. Trade an attack for AC

[Giant2005]

The Sword Breaker is pretty good but the Tower Shield obsoletes the regular shield and the versatile use property of the buckler is pretty rubbish - no-one in their right mind is going to trade 1 Ac and 1 to-hit for 1 damage. It actually makes the versatile property worse than it already is if someone falls into the trap of using a buckler.

[Sindeloke]

Defensive Parry: If you do not attack with this weapon as a Bonus Action you gain +1 AC until the beginning of your following turn.

You might consider switching that to "if you do not use a Bonus Action to make an attack, you gain +1 AC until the beginning of your next turn." As you have it now, I could carry two sword breakers, attack with my main hand, TFW with my off hand, and still get +1 AC with my main hand.

[Ninja_Prawn]

As you have it now, I could carry two sword breakers, attack with my main hand, TFW with my off hand, and still get +1 AC with my main hand.

There was a guy who did this in that film, Black Death. It looked stupid, but then I guess that fitted the theme perfectly. Man, that film was terrible.

[AmbientRaven]

The Sword Breaker is pretty good but the Tower Shield obsoletes the regular shield and the versatile use property of the buckler is pretty rubbish - no-one in their right mind is going to trade 1 Ac and 1 to-hit for 1 damage. It actually makes the versatile property worse than it already is if someone falls into the trap of using a buckler.

We allow GWF feat with Versatile weapons so it actually isn't to bad. Though you are correct, we may drop the -1 to hit from it and just have it you lose the AC.

Tower Shield only obsoletes it for heavy armour using shield users. So Most Clerics, Druids ect. Don't get to use them unless they dip or take a feat to get heavy armour prof. We have talked of upping the str req to 15 or making it require the Shield master feat


You might consider switching that to "if you do not use a Bonus Action to make an attack, you gain +1 AC until the beginning of your next turn." As you have it now, I could carry two sword breakers, attack with my main hand, TFW with my off hand, and still get +1 AC with my main hand.

Thank you, good point, wording is fixed :)
Changed it to
"if you do not use a Bonus Action to make an attack, you gain +1 AC until the beginning of your next turn. You may only use this ability when you are wielding a one handed weapon in your main and off hand at the same time" added the clause to prevent one handed dueling weapon that will just add AC when closing to an enemy, and because it is designed as as parrying dagger in dueling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger)

[LordVonDerp]

We already have bucklers, they give +2 to ac.

[rollingForInit]

I'd be tempted to make it even simpler.

Bucklers give +1 to ac and are usable by anyone proficient in shields. Probably give some other bonus to make them competitive with shields, like having your shield hand free or something.

Parrying daggers are martial weapons that grant +1 to AC and otherwise function as a dagger (minus the ability to be thrown).


Buckler: +1 AC instead of +2, but uses only an item interaction to don/doff.

[Logosloki]

I'd just rule bucklers and parrying daggers as "counts as" shields and carry on. Or, they could be the source of the +1 AC from . I would assume that a character that is using a buckler or a shield adjusts their attack and defence patterns accordingly. This makes parrying dagger look boss as because you could describe an arrow that misses as being sliced out of the air by the dagger.

If 5th had more complicated rules for weapons and armour then I would probably go with: +1 AC, if an attack misses you may immediately use your reaction to remove advantage from any other attacks from that attacker this turn. Though, if I was reworking the weapon system then people would have opportunities to gain more reactions and have a wider scope of things they can do with their reactions.

[MarkTriumphant]

Buckler: +1 AC instead of +2, but uses only an item interaction to don/doff.

How long does it take for a normal shield?

[-Jynx-]

Your Buckler should count as +2 just as well as any other shield. A buckler in the hands of an 'expert' for example is just as well off as say a round shield, a scutum, kite or heater shield. Each may be situationally better, but from a broader perspective the smaller surface area and thinner material of the buckler compensates by being very light and maneuverable.

That being said outside of merely fluffying the shield as a buckler specifically I do think you should change certain things like Shield Master for example if your character decides they want that feat but insist on having a buckler. You could very well shield bash with the buckler, but you're unlikely to shove someone prone with it so perhaps instead find an alternative to that portion of the feat.

As for parrying dagger I do think that it should give +2 instead of +1 in the presence of the duel-wielder feat if for no other reason than to encourage other combinations than a bland two short-sword build. I'm less inclined to think however that it should give +1 naturally to AC otherwise.


Edit: As for the sword-breaker I would make it 1d4 Bludgeoning (Most sword breakers had a pointed tip, but the sword breaker wasn't a fencing type weapon it was made to intercept sword cuts and as such is used more like a saber/short sword. Since it doesn't have a sharp edge it makes a bit more sense for it to be bludgeoning in my mind) and give it advantage on sunder/disarm attempts. I would not give it finesse for two reasons: 1. doing so makes the dagger obsolete, 2 Sword breakers by nature were more blade heavy than a scimitar, shortsword, or rapier so that they could well... sword break. So while it's not as heavy as say a greatsword it does take much more strength than dexterity.

[1Forge]

We already have bucklers, they give +2 to ac.

To everyone saying bucklers should be a +2 that is just stupid.
The +2 from sheild is because it gives half cover....(also a +2)
Yes a skilled person uses a buckler fantastically, but it's just not the same cover wise.
As for sword-breakers I think I'd use the same rules as the parrying dagger, but allow them to make a bonus action to disarm an opponent with a bladed weapon.
I might allow dual wielder to stack because that would represent a master using his chosen weapon.
Also bucklers are so light I'd say you can draw it as a free action (most were worn on the belt next to the sword)
Also note: this isn't just a shield skin change, this is an entirely different tool, with an entirely different skill set.

p.s. to whomever said longswords should be finess, i agree wholeheartedly, on avrage lng swords weigh 2-3 lbs max. Maybe I'll make it a feat (e.g. sword master: long swords are now finesse weapons for you) but thats a topic for another thread.

(oh and for tower sheilds I gave a str requirement and gave them +5 for 3/4 cover, they also lowered your speed by 5 ft)

[D.U.P.A.]

Every one handed weapon can be used as parrying dagger, but the character must be skilled enough to use the technique, aka having dual wielder feat. Bucklers were in next, gave +1 to ac, but their purpose is not clear, probably for druids or something (they were supposed to be wooden), they were cheaper and lighter, however ordinary shields were in every way superior. 4e had light and heavy shields, but classes were well differentiated even by shield proficiency, so light shield could be still useful for those not proficient in heavy shields, both needed (standard) action to don and doff, only difference than AC value was that with light shield you could still use hand for holding a shield for certain tasks (but not attack!) and heavy shield imposed more penalties to physical skills.

[1Forge]

Edit: As for the sword-breaker I would make it 1d4 Bludgeoning (Most sword breakers had a pointed tip, but the sword breaker wasn't a fencing type weapon it was made to intercept sword cuts and as such is used more like a saber/short sword. Since it doesn't have a sharp edge it makes a bit more sense for it to be bludgeoning in my mind) and give it advantage on sunder/disarm attempts. I would not give it finesse for two reasons: 1. doing so makes the dagger obsolete, 2 Sword breakers by nature were more blade heavy than a scimitar, shortsword, or rapier so that they could well... sword break. So while it's not as heavy as say a greatsword it does take much more strength than dexterity.

Dude have you ever experienced real fencing with real swordbreakers, or bucklers? Most "sword breakers" were parrying daggers with special hilts and notches, they caught blades like a parrying dagger, but the difference was you twisted your wrist to break their grip (or mythicly a crappy sword) Most fantasy sword breakers are longswords, and while that is innacurate, a few replicas were made so it is possible, for longer sword breakers I'd give advantage on disarm checks, but not change the damage type.

@D.U.P.A. : It's really not hard to use a parrying dagger, but I suppose classes like druid, and wizard might not know how to use them... I'd probably just rule that to use a parrying dagger you'd have to have a DEX of 13 or higher. Also the difference between a regular dagger and a parrying dagger is the way it was designed. A regular dagger "could" be used like a parrying dagger if they were skilled enough (dual weilder feat) but parrying daggers design give very noticable advantages over a kitchen knife. Also the shield thing is just messed up bucklers are not shields.

[-Jynx-]

Dude have you ever experienced real fencing with real swordbreakers, or bucklers? Most "sword breakers" were parrying daggers with special hilts and notches, they caught blades like a parrying dagger, but the difference was you twisted your wrist to break their grip (or mythicly a crappy sword) Most fantasy sword breakers are longswords, and while that is innacurate, a few replicas were made so it is possible, for longer sword breakers I'd give advantage on disarm checks, but not change the damage type.

Yes actually, but I believe we are thinking of different things. European sword breakers were daggers with catch notches and thicker bladed to allow a snap, oriental ones were traditionally fat-poled short swords that bludgeoned a sword apart. You referred to the former I referenced the latter, but lets not get our nickers in a bunch. Again it wouldn't change the fact that it is a d4 dmg dice, it also doesn't change the fact that it should not be a finesse weapon given it's design and relative weight to size, and doesn't change the fact that it should give advantage on sunder/disarm all point I was making earlier in creating it.



@D.U.P.A. : It's really not hard to use a parrying dagger, but I suppose classes like druid, and wizard might not know how to use them... I'd probably just rule that to use a parrying dagger you'd have to have a DEX of 13 or higher. Also the difference between a regular dagger and a parrying dagger is the way it was designed. A regular dagger "could" be used like a parrying dagger if they were skilled enough (dual weilder feat) but parrying daggers design give very noticable advantages over a kitchen knife. Also the shield thing is just messed up bucklers are not shields.


Dude have you ever experienced real fencing
Bolded to highlight the point that you clearly don't have as firm a grasp on fencing as you think you do if you believe using a parrying dagger well (against a variety of weapons mind you) is by any means easy. Daggers and Parrying daggers actually have HUGE differences. For starters most parrying daggers or any dagger meant to be coupled with a rapier or likewise smallsword generally have larger swooped hilts to help catch oncoming swords. Many also had hand guards to them though it's not necessary.

You're otherwise mainstream dagger lacks the larger swept hilt (outside of say the renaissance period) Most daggers otherwise have a thicker blade and shorter hilt. Keep in mind that DnD is a realm outside of just a renaissance era so it has many different kinds of weapons, armor and otherwise that fit a much broader spectrum of time periods.

[Mandragola]

Use the defensive duelist feat.

Defensive duelist is about parrying. The exact method you use to parry, whether it's your sword, a dagger or a buckler, is sort of a question of style more than anything, I think.

[Icewraith]

Buckler+Parrying Dagger gives a +2 AC bonus. A buckler by itself grants a +1 bonus to AC, occupies the hand as if it were a shield, and requires shield proficiency. A parrying dagger by itself is treated as a dagger without the thrown property but can be wielded in a hand holding a buckler (but not a normal shield). You may use a bonus action to attack with the Parrying Dagger as per the rules for two-weapon fighting, but forego the bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

Bucklers do not count as shields for the purposes of the shield master feat. The DM may allow any character proficient with daggers but not shields to train during downtime using the normal rules to gain a Tool Proficiency with the buckler. Tool proficiency with the buckler counts as shield proficiency for all purposes except determining whether or not the wearer can cast spells.

If you have the dual wielder feat, you do not gain the additional +1 to AC while wearing a parrying dagger+buckler. However, you may attack with your off-hand with a bonus action without foregoing your existing AC bonus and you still gain all the other benefits of the feat.

Now the buckler+parrying dagger combination allows you to bypass the don+doff rules for shields in exchange for an extra attack with a 1d4 weapon (you could be using a 1d6 weapon instead). You can never benefit from the shield bonus and the ability to attack in the same round without the dual wielder feat.

With the dual wielder feat you do not gain the extra +1 AC, but you already are at +2 ac. Compared to a normal dual wielder, your AC is 1 better but your off-hand attack is restricted to a 1d4 parrying dagger when it could be any 1d8 weapon of any damage type.

The parrying dagger+buckler provides quite a nice benefit to rogues, who are already very strong in the early levels, so they can't start off immediately knowing the combination. However, once they train for it, melee-focused rogues can pick up +2 to AC whenever they don't need to use their bonus action to land a sneak attack.

[1Forge]

Yes actually, but I believe we are thinking of different things. European sword breakers were daggers with catch notches and thicker bladed to allow a snap, oriental ones were traditionally fat-poled short swords that bludgeoned a sword apart. You referred to the former I referenced the latter, but lets not get our nickers in a bunch. Again it wouldn't change the fact that it is a d4 dmg dice, it also doesn't change the fact that it should not be a finesse weapon given it's design and relative weight to size, and doesn't change the fact that it should give advantage on sunder/disarm all point I was making earlier in creating it.




Bolded to highlight the point that you clearly don't have as firm a grasp on fencing as you think you do if you believe using a parrying dagger well (against a variety of weapons mind you) is by any means easy. Daggers and Parrying daggers actually have HUGE differences. For starters most parrying daggers or any dagger meant to be coupled with a rapier or likewise smallsword generally have larger swooped hilts to help catch oncoming swords. Many also had hand guards to them though it's not necessary.

You're otherwise mainstream dagger lacks the larger swept hilt (outside of say the renaissance period) Most daggers otherwise have a thicker blade and shorter hilt. Keep in mind that DnD is a realm outside of just a renaissance era so it has many different kinds of weapons, armor and otherwise that fit a much broader spectrum of time periods.

I think you misinterpret my point. I know that parrying daggers are different then your average run-of- the-mill combat dagger, And I never said they wern't ( edit; I see the misunderstanding, I was commenting on dagger sword breakers, and how they have even more notches and grooves). I fence alot and what I was saying is that anyone with basic experience with simple combat should be able to use a parrying dagger functionally. I dont know how you would think otherwise I have used them and when fencing an opponent similarly skilled I'ts quite simple to deflect or catch the opponents blade. I see your point that not anyone would know how to use it, my point before was it shouldnt require a feat because feats show you have extreme mastery in that area, not just basic proficiency.

As for sword breakers I did a bit of research and your right I was talking about European I see the miscommunication. If you can pls give me a link so I can see more of these oriental sword breakers.

Also I'm surprised you know what a small sword is, I admit i'm impressed, most people I talk to still think long swords are 15 lbs and rapiers are foils.

[1Forge]

Use the defensive duelist feat.

Defensive duelist is about parrying. The exact method you use to parry, whether it's your sword, a dagger or a buckler, is sort of a question of style more than anything, I think.

It's not just style, parrying daggers were specialized tools specifically for catching blades. Defensive duelist would just show mastery with these types of tools. These things should not ever require a feat.

[-Jynx-]

I think you misinterpret my point. I know that parrying daggers are different then your average run-of- the-mill combat dagger, And I never said they wern't ( edit; I see the misunderstanding, I was commenting on dagger sword breakers, and how they have even more notches and grooves). I fence alot and what I was saying is that anyone with basic experience with simple combat should be able to use a parrying dagger functionally. I dont know how you would think otherwise I have used them and when fencing an opponent similarly skilled I'ts quite simple to deflect or catch the opponents blade. I see your point that not anyone would know how to use it, my point before was it shouldnt require a feat because feats show you have extreme mastery in that area, not just basic proficiency.

Fair enough I see your point, though in contrast look at polearm master which lets you attack with the blunt end of said stick. It's common practice, most spearmen or anyone who's wielded a spear/quarterstaff/polearm have done so yet it requires a feat for your DnD character to preform. I only meant that a parrying dagger in conjunction with the dual-wield feat should boost the +1 AC the feat gives you to +2. That way more people will at least consider using a dagger when they duel wield rather than just two short swords.


As for sword breakers I did a bit of research and your right I was talking about European I see the miscommunication. If you can pls give me a link so I can see more of these oriental sword breakers.

Unfortunately I'm at work, the first one that jumps to mind that you can reference is a chinese sword breaker by cold steel (I'm not a huge fan of referencing them as "historical information" but until I can get you some references that'll have to do).


Also I'm surprised you know what a small sword is, I admit i'm impressed, most people I talk to still think long swords are 15 lbs and rapiers are foils.
Aye I'm a h.e.m.a. enthusiast myself so I do definitely know the difference between a cutlass, saber, foil, rapier, smallsword, back/side sword and the like!

[Knaight]

Historically and realistically, bucklers use your hands. Shields were strapped to the arm and bucklers were held in the hand. This is one of those weird things that D&D just decided to do backwards because Gygax and Arneson did the best research they could but didn't have the internet to do it.
There are tons of different shields that have been used where you hold them in the center and they don't strap to your arm. Shields strapped to the arm also generally had something you grabbed as a second attachment point. The idea that using a shield means you have the shield hand free is iffy at best.


It's not just style, parrying daggers were specialized tools specifically for catching blades. Defensive duelist would just show mastery with these types of tools. These things should not ever require a feat.
They are specialized tools specifically for catching some blades. Using them fairly effectively against a smallsword or rapier doesn't take an exceptional amount of skill. Getting much mileage out of them against something like a halberd? That's a fair bit trickier.

[1Forge]

Fair enough I see your point, though in contrast look at polearm master which lets you attack with the blunt end of said stick. It's common practice, most spearmen or anyone who's wielded a spear/quarterstaff/polearm have done so yet it requires a feat for your DnD character to preform. I only meant that a parrying dagger in conjunction with the dual-wield feat should boost the +1 AC the feat gives you to +2. That way more people will at least consider using a dagger when they duel wield rather than just two short swords.


Aye I'm a h.e.m.a. enthusiast myself so I do definitely know the difference between a cutlass, saber, foil, rapier, smallsword, back/side sword and the like!

h.e.m.a? cool I cant ever find orginizations like that in america.
Also your right the defensive duelist should stack with daggers, it makes sense.

@Knaigt; I didnt even think of polearms...though I suppose you could still catch the pole and push the point away.... I dont know enough about polearm fighting to make a call on that.

[Bohemond]

We have houseruled back the shields available in 3.5. We use a custom Defense Score system alternative to Armor Class and also adopted the variant Facing rule from the DMG, but the stats should work fine in vanilla 5e as well.

Buckler
A Buckler Shield grants +1 bonus to DS(AC) against melee weapon attacks. In addition, it functions as a martial weapon with the "light" and "finesse" properties that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. You may attack with a buckler as a bonus action even if the other weapon you are wielding doesn't have the "light" property.

Light Shield
A Light Shield grants +1 bonus to DS(AC) against melee weapon attacks. As it is strapped onto the forearm, the shield hand is free to perform other tasks, such as providing material and somatic components when casting, and assisting in the usage of two-handed weapons.

Heavy Shield
A Heavy Shield grants +2 bonus to DS(AC) against melee and ranged weapon attacks. As a bonus action, you forfeit the bonus and instead benefit from half cover against all attacks and effects originating in squares in your front and shield side until the start of your next turn.

Tower Shield
A Tower Shield grants +2 bonus to DS(AC) against melee and ranged weapon attacks. As a bonus action, you forfeit the bonus and instead benefit from three-quarters cover against all attacks and effects originating in squares in your front and shield side until the start of your next turn. When carrying a Tower Shield, you cannot take Dash actions.

Note: You may only wield one shield effectively, regardless of type.

[Knaight]

@Knaigt; I didnt even think of polearms...though I suppose you could still catch the pole and push the point away.... I dont know enough about polearm fighting to make a call on that.

They're only one example. A parrying dagger isn't completely useless against them, but getting much mileage out of it is going to be tricky. The same thing applies to most non-fencing weapons, and that's before we get into the implications of an AC boost against ranged weapons, particularly arrows and the like.

[1Forge]

They're only one example. A parrying dagger isn't completely useless against them, but getting much mileage out of it is going to be tricky. The same thing applies to most non-fencing weapons, and that's before we get into the implications of an AC boost against ranged weapons, particularly arrows and the like.

I noted on page one that parrying daggers only give the AC bonus to melee weapons, though now I might restrict that to blades (I cant see my bard catching a morning star or flail with his dagger) Thats why bucklers are "better" they protect from all attacks.

EDIT: I think I'll restrict sword breakers to blades also (trying to snap a morning star in half would be ridiculous) I think this will also make shields still very valuble so not everyone will just grab parrying daggers.

[1Forge]

We have houseruled back the shields available in 3.5. We use a custom Defense Score system alternative to Armor Class and also adopted the variant Facing rule from the DMG, but the stats should work fine in vanilla 5e as well.

Buckler
A Buckler Shield grants +1 bonus to DS(AC) against melee weapon attacks. In addition, it functions as a martial weapon with the "light" and "finesse" properties that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. You may attack with a buckler as a bonus action even if the other weapon you are wielding doesn't have the "light" property.

Light Shield
A Light Shield grants +1 bonus to DS(AC) against melee weapon attacks. As it is strapped onto the forearm, the shield hand is free to perform other tasks, such as providing material and somatic components when casting, and assisting in the usage of two-handed weapons.

Heavy Shield
A Heavy Shield grants +2 bonus to DS(AC) against melee and ranged weapon attacks. As a bonus action, you forfeit the bonus and instead benefit from half cover against all attacks and effects originating in squares in your front and shield side until the start of your next turn.

Tower Shield
A Tower Shield grants +2 bonus to DS(AC) against melee and ranged weapon attacks. As a bonus action, you forfeit the bonus and instead benefit from three-quarters cover against all attacks and effects originating in squares in your front and shield side until the start of your next turn. When carrying a Tower Shield, you cannot take Dash actions.

Note: You may only wield one shield effectively, regardless of type.

Interesting system, but I make it even simpler:
buckler +1 to AC (I like the light/finess multiattack thing I might use it)
shield +2 to AC (material just affects wieght and durability)
tower shield +5 to AC, heavy reduces speed by 5 ft (the +5 is for 3/4 cover)
no bonuses if you arnt facing the attack.

[-Jynx-]

Interesting system, but I make it even simpler:
buckler +1 to AC (I like the light/finess multiattack thing I might use it)
shield +2 to AC (material just affects wieght and durability)
tower shield +5 to AC, heavy reduces speed by 5 ft (the +5 is for 3/4 cover)
no bonuses if you arnt facing the attack.

The largest issue you're going to see with that is the Tower Shield. +5 to AC is HUGE especially when couple with plate armor putting you at a comfy 23 AC before Racial bonuses (like the +1 Ac from warforged) or fighting styles or magic items etc. etc. This will break bounded accuracy and push a PC to a very high CR AC at a relatively low level (since plate armor and presumably your tower shield wouldn't be that hard to come by and after a couple levels is easily purchasable).

Also the -5ft isn't enough a drawback to never not use the tower shield. Dwarves could care less (heck most races/classes bent on raising their AC that high would be willing to sacrifice the 5ft movement) you effectively create a situation where tower shields are the only shields anyone would ever use. You may say only certain classes get proficiency in it (fighters, paladins, other heavy armor prof. classes) but even taking a feat to gain heavy armor proficiency is well worth the +5AC tower shield coupled with plate armor.

Edit: If you insist on having Tower shields though consider making it +3 AC only. If the relative size of your buckler is only 1 AC less than a much larger round shield for example it stands to reason that the much larger tower shield would only offer +1 AC from the base +2 of a normal shield. This helps keep the flow of bounded accuracy, forces non heavy-armor proficient classes to still have to take a feat for that shield (and plate) and with the -5 ft movement it at least gives a small drawback to the shield.

[1Forge]

The largest issue you're going to see with that is the Tower Shield. +5 to AC is HUGE especially when couple with plate armor putting you at a comfy 23 AC before Racial bonuses (like the +1 Ac from warforged) or fighting styles or magic items etc. etc. This will break bounded accuracy and push a PC to a very high CR AC at a relatively low level (since plate armor and presumably your tower shield wouldn't be that hard to come by and after a couple levels is easily purchasable).

Also the -5ft isn't enough a drawback to never not use the tower shield. Dwarves could care less (heck most races/classes bent on raising their AC that high would be willing to sacrifice the 5ft movement) you effectively create a situation where tower shields are the only shields anyone would ever use. You may say only certain classes get proficiency in it (fighters, paladins, other heavy armor prof. classes) but even taking a feat to gain heavy armor proficiency is well worth the +5AC tower shield coupled with plate armor.


Okay i see your point I have a tower shield thread, but I lost it....Ill start a new one.

[Easy_Lee]

Here's what makes sense to me:
Defensive Duelist (Updated) - in addition to the reaction, you gain +1 AC and may ignore the light requirement for two weapon fighting while wielding a dagger.

[1Forge]

Here's what makes sense to me:
Defensive Duelist (Updated) - in addition to the reaction, you gain +1 AC and may ignore the light requirement for two weapon fighting while wielding a dagger.

I dont know about the light part, then they could wield a battle axe in one hand and a dagger in the other. Or a hammer, or a table...

[Easy_Lee]

I dont know about the light part, then they could wield a battle axe in one hand and a dagger in the other. Or a hammer, or a table...

As these would have a maximum damage die of a D8, same as a rapier, I see nothing wrong with that.

[1Forge]

oh yeah i forgot 5e....