Lets play a game called "Spot the mistakes"

[RandomMissy]

There's this guy I know, he thinks he is this super amazing DnD player, but he is actually pretty terrible. Please help me find all the mistakes he made in his character sheet.

Hint: He called Incantatrix: Incantifier, and somehow took 16 levels of it by level 21. This should give you an idea of how bad it is.

Enjoy.

http://www.filedropper.com/character

[torrasque666]

That format... it hurts to read....

[RandomMissy]

But what hurts me the most is the complete butchering of game rules. Like, im not exaggerating, I have this knot in my stomach, and its quite painful.

[Malak'ai]

That format... it hurts to read....


But what hurts me the most is the complete butchering of game rules. Like, im not exaggerating, I have this knot in my stomach, and its quite painful.

I feel your pain! I have no idea who-so-ever thought that that was a good online character sheet format.

Anyway, back to the main question. I noticed he called 'cantrips' 'caltrops'. This could be just a simple type-o, but if not... :smalleek:.
Also his stats!!! How were they generated? What's he done to improve them?

[Telonius]

Wow.

Looking at the "Implants" - apparently there's something called a "Technomagical Implant" from Dungeon 351. He's completely abused the stacking rules there, and bought 5 and 10 each of most of them. The Natural Armor would drop by 10, for starters. For stats, he got three each of Divine Mind and Divine Body; he'd have to pick one of the three, since each one occupies a single item slot. EDIT: And, he got them after taking Vow of Poverty.

The AC Bonus from Vow of Poverty caps out at +10, not +11. I can almost see that as being reasonable, if you extend the bonus pattern to 21st level; but as is, there is no Epic progression for VoP bonuses.

He has Vow of Poverty while using an Item Familiar. EDIT: Seems like he added regular feats instead of Exalted feats for his VoP bonuses.

Human with Nymph's Kiss and +5 Int (ignoring for the moment how he got that at first level). That's 2+7=9 skill points per level. Times 24 (4 at first, 20 for the rest of the level ups) gives him 216 skill points. The sheet lists 240.

He's got 24 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) despite it not being a class skill for either Sorcerer or Incantatrix.

More weird than illegal, but he has a Spell Component Pouch even though he has Eschew Materials.


... and that's all the time I'm going to spend on that. There are probably a lot more things wrong with it, but what I found basically eviscerates the build.

[AvatarVecna]

Wow.

Looking at the "Implants" - apparently there's something called a "Technomagical Implant" from Dungeon 351. He's completely abused the stacking rules there, and bought 5 and 10 each of most of them. The Natural Armor would drop by 10, for starters. For stats, he got three each of Divine Mind and Divine Body; he'd have to pick one of the three, since each one occupies a single item slot. EDIT: And, he got them after taking Vow of Poverty.

The AC Bonus from Vow of Poverty caps out at +10, not +11. I can almost see that as being reasonable, if you extend the bonus pattern to 21st level; but as is, there is no Epic progression for VoP bonuses.

He has Vow of Poverty while using an Item Familiar. EDIT: Seems like he added regular feats instead of Exalted feats for his VoP bonuses.

Human with Nymph's Kiss and +5 Int (ignoring for the moment how he got that at first level). That's 2+7=9 skill points per level. Times 24 (4 at first, 20 for the rest of the level ups) gives him 216 skill points. The sheet lists 240.

He's got 24 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) despite it not being a class skill for either Sorcerer or Incantatrix.

More weird than illegal, but he has a Spell Component Pouch even though he has Eschew Materials.


... and that's all the time I'm going to spend on that. There are probably a lot more things wrong with it, but what I found basically eviscerates the build.

The only thing I'll mention is that, while the table only goes up to level 21, many of the abilities advance "every x levels", such as the armor bonus increasing by 1 every 3 levels after. So yes, it would be +11 at 21st level. That doesn't make any of the rest of this wrong, but it's still worth mentioning. Vow of Poverty is terrible on an Epic character for a lot of reasons, but giving you absolutely nothing after epic is not one of those reasons (giving you nothing new is one of those reasons, though).

[icefractal]

I tried to read over this, but that format is just too awful. I think having it completely unformatted would actually be an improvement.

[Telonius]

I think it's an Excel file kludged up to be in HTML. Copy and paste it into Excel, that might help.

[RandomMissy]

Its a saved web-page. Try opening it with google chrome maybe?


Oh, and do note how his PrC is 16 levels at level 21 (part from being named wrong)

[SparowCrow]

That format is just terrible, I didn't delve too deeply, but I noticed he doesn't have a single point in any of the knowledge skills, so he doesn't qualify for Incantatrix at level 21, much less level 6

[RandomMissy]

For all those for whom the format messes up for some reason:
http://i.imgur.com/3GsLMZr.png
http://i.imgur.com/YCeX0Q8.png
http://i.imgur.com/3sGkoNk.png

[Telonius]

Its a saved web-page. Try opening it with google chrome maybe?


Oh, and do note how his PrC is 16 levels at level 21 (part from being named wrong)

I really wish I were a bit better versed in Latin so I could tell for certain, but I'm pretty sure he even got the translation wrong. I think Incantatrix would be Incantator as a masculine word, or Incantificer if you're trying to make it gender-neutral.

[torrasque666]

For all those for whom the format messes up for some reason:
why not just give us the myth-weavers link instead?

[Snowbluff]

I really wish I were a bit better versed in Latin so I could tell for certain, but I'm pretty sure he even got the translation wrong. I think Incantatrix would be Incantator as a masculine word, or Incantificer if you're trying to make it gender-neutral.

Incantatar, according to the source book.

[AvatarVecna]

I was wondering what LordDrako was up to...

[RolkFlameraven]

I was wondering what LordDrako was up to...

Sadly I had this same thought, wow.

[Extra Anchovies]

I was wondering what LordDrako was up to...

Sorcerer base? Check.
Incantatrix, but by a different name? Check.
Blatant disregard for the rules? Check.

Too bad we don't have the spells known list to see if this person has Ruin Delver's Fortune :smallbiggrin:

[RandomMissy]

why not just give us the myth-weavers link instead?

Because the sheet isnt on mythweavers.


Sorcerer base? Check.
Incantatrix, but by a different name? Check.
Blatant disregard for the rules? Check.

Too bad we don't have the spells known list to see if this person has Ruin Delver's Fortune

Sadly he dont >_<

[Barstro]

Clearly, this player cannot be trusted to make a Level-x character. I guess you will need to print off 20+ character sheets and have him start at Level-1.

[torrasque666]

Because the sheet isnt on mythweavers. Damn mythweavers knock offs.....or things mythweavers is knocking off....

[Necroticplague]

Who's LordDrako?

[torrasque666]

Who's LordDrako?
Good.... goood...... let the amnesia flow through you....

[Andezzar]

Where can I get a bottle of this amnesia?

AvatarVecna probably refers to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD).

[Flickerdart]

I was wondering what LordDrako was up to...
Can't be him. Behold - the sorcerer in the picture is wearing a shirt!

[Bronk]

Looking at the "Implants" - apparently there's something called a "Technomagical Implant" from Dungeon 351. He's completely abused the stacking rules there, and bought 5 and 10 each of most of them. The Natural Armor would drop by 10, for starters. For stats, he got three each of Divine Mind and Divine Body; he'd have to pick one of the three, since each one occupies a single item slot. EDIT: And, he got them after taking Vow of Poverty.

Checking out Dragon 351, it turns out that this guy actually would have needed to take the 'Technomagical Implant' feat to even use these things... He seems to have forgotten...

[atemu1234]

Let's stay on topic here. How in the nine hells did this person get those bloody stats?

[RandomMissy]

Let's stay on topic here. How in the nine hells did this person get those bloody stats?

Well, the stats are a custom thing in the campaign. but everything else it totally wrong, and terrible.

[Bad Wolf]

Who's LordDrako?

A terrible being who was banished beyond space and time, never to return. Until now...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Checking out Dragon 351, it turns out that this guy actually would have needed to take the 'Technomagical Implant' feat to even use these things... He seems to have forgotten...

According to those sheets he took it at 4 via VoP. He does imply that Necromancy is stronger than Transmutation (which is kept for the celerity line). In spite of it being bad, I do love polymorph.

Also his stats are waaay too high unless those implants buff them. The human cap for a VoP stat at level 21 is 31, with the next highest being 24. He has a 44 and a 36.

Edit: His AC is off too unless those implants buff them. What the heck are these if they don't disqualify you for VoP?

[Bad Wolf]

I assume they are grafts of some sort. Do grafts count against VoP?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I assume they are grafts of some sort. Do grafts count against VoP?


Grafts taken after VoP do, before it gets kinda fuzzy. They aren't items per see, but they have material value. He took VoP at one so unless these are free he is in trouble.

Also he took Eschew Materials at 21. Not sure how he is getting 2 feats at level 21 (I know how he thinks he is...)

[Necroticplague]

Grafts taken after VoP do, before it gets kinda fuzzy. They aren't items per see, but they have material value. He took VoP at one so unless these are free he is in trouble.

Actually, grafts after VOP are OK too. The only problem would be paying for them. They aren't material possession at all (they're modifications to your statistics), so it doesn't conflict with VOP any more than leveling up does.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Actually, grafts after VOP are OK too. The only problem would be paying for them. They aren't material possession at all (they're modifications to your statistics), so it doesn't conflict with VOP any more than leveling up does.

Okay I misremembered that. How to get them without paying could be tricky; you would need to get them as a gift that is in no way a form of payment.

Edit: I found on the sheet where he lists the implants as well as their costs. He managed to get 759870 gold worth of implants in spite of VoP.

[atemu1234]

Okay I misremembered that. How to get them without paying could be tricky; you would need to get them as a gift that is in no way a form of payment.

Edit: I found on the sheet where he lists the implants as well as their costs. He managed to get 759870 gold worth of implants in spite of VoP.

That's a very generous party member.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, I think it was mentioned that he took the same implant several times and stacked its effect. I'm pretty sure that breaks the rule on stacking bonuses; sure, untyped bonuses can stack with each other, but I'm pretty sure untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.

[j_spencer93]

Well all implants stack, part of their rules, but so is the part where they must be found as treasure and they take up magical item slots. Only way to stack the same one legally would be the ability to wear several types of the same item in a certain location.

[Venger]

Well all implants stack, part of their rules, but so is the part where they must be found as treasure and they take up magical item slots.

pay double and make them slotless

[AvatarVecna]

Do implants explicitly stacking with literal copies of the same implant? Like, let's say you can buy a grafted arm that gives you +4 untyped bonus to Strength. If you have two of them, do you get +8 to your Str?

EDIT: Because if that's true, I need to go back and update my "Optimized Hulking Hurler" builds I made a while back; there's cheap, stackable Strength bonuses just waiting for me to turn my gold into cheese.

[j_spencer93]

Do implants explicitly stacking with literal copies of the same implant? Like, let's say you can buy a grafted arm that gives you +4 untyped bonus to Strength. If you have two of them, do you get +8 to your Str?

EDIT: Because if that's true, I need to go back and update my "Optimized Hulking Hurler" builds I made a while back; there's cheap, stackable Strength bonuses just waiting for me to turn my gold into cheese.

I quote "All implants, minor and major, are compatible with each other and their bonuses stack where applicable." So honestly, idk. The strength bonus is only a +1, its an inherent bonus, and can only be in the bracers or boots location, so not even the best options for a strength boost.

Also the guy above talking about making them slotless, well with VOP that would be a problem as would be getting one in the first place. Also, really don't think it applies here.

Using these and some other things you could easily make an anime based or iron man character lol but most of them are really bad anyways. Btw they are in dragon 351.

[Venger]

I quote "All implants, minor and major, are compatible with each other and their bonuses stack where applicable." So honestly, idk. The strength bonus is only a +1, its an inherent bonus, and can only be in the bracers or boots location, so not even the best options for a strength boost.

Also the guy above talking about making them slotless, well with VOP that would be a problem as would be getting one in the first place. Also, really don't think it applies here.

Using these and some other things you could easily make an anime based or iron man character lol but most of them are really bad anyways. Btw they are in dragon 351.

(emphasis mine)

inherent bonuses don't stack, so there you go.

blue means sarcasm. the point is this joker is cheating in like a million ways.

[Necroticplague]

Do implants possess a graft-like clause that says they aren't magic items? Because if not, than even having them is against VOP. Seems like it would have been easier to ask if he could use Sculpt Self and gold in place of XP.

[j_spencer93]

Well the reason i said idk, is i could see people saying that this is a specific rule so it overrides the general rule (not saying i agree), also I know blue is sarcasm. These bonuses suck, and are created for monks mainly. Actually i could see these as being a means to VOP monk build, if you had a rich partner willing to give them to you, but still they are not great. However, i think you could get them on top of a graft which might be interesting.

Wizard with his own abomination monk lol

[j_spencer93]

Do implants possess a graft-like clause that says they aren't magic items? Because if not, than even having them is against VOP. Seems like it would have been easier to ask if he could use Sculpt Self and gold in place of XP.

Actually it never says they are magical or not. Fluff wise they are supposed to be so advanced they seem magical, however it seems they forgot or didn't think of putting in a sentence saying either way. I would take it as the line saying that implants take up the appropriate magical item slot might indicate they are...but idk.
They apparently do not give off a magical aura or anything either so actually maybe not. Apparently detect magic can't sense them, and anything canceling magic isn't stated either way on them. However, thinking the lack of any mention of magical effects and them may be implying they are not magical, however incompetent designers forgot to mention it.

I haven't really read them all the way until now so sorry for any misinformation.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

[Necroticplague]

Actually it never says they are magical or not. Fluff wise they are supposed to be so advanced they seem magical, however it seems they forgot or didn't think of putting in a sentence saying either way. I would take it as the line saying that implants take up the appropriate magical item slot might indicate they are...but idk.
They apparently do not give off a magical aura or anything either so actually maybe not. Apparently detect magic can't sense them, and anything canceling magic isn't stated either way on them. However, thinking the lack of any mention of magical effects and them may be implying they are not magical, however incompetent designers forgot to mention it.

I haven't really read them all the way until now so sorry for any misinformation.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

Whether it's magical or not isn't relevent. VOP stops you from owning any material possessions not on the whitelist, not just magical ones.

[j_spencer93]

Magical part was pertaining to the question above if they were magical. Wait, didn't someone ask that? Lol wait no it was about that clause you asked about, i got off track apparently.

[Necroticplague]

Magical part was pertaining to the question above if they were magical. Wait, didn't someone ask that? Lol wait no it was about that clause you asked about, i got off track apparently.
I see. You thought I asked 'are they magic items', when I meant to ask 'are they magic items'.

[j_spencer93]

So what makes these different from grafts except that one clause? is that the only thing that saves grafts from being banned by VOP?

[marphod]

So what makes these different from grafts except that one clause? is that the only thing that saves grafts from being banned by VOP?

Hunh. I've never had a DM let someone get away with Grafts and VoP. They are still material possessions, and at the very least can be considered masterwork. (Well, I guess if someone disabled the VoP character and applied the grafts while they were unconscious, maaaaaaybe. It wasn't a voluntary violation and it would be hazardous to remove them. Probably suspend the VoP bonuses until the character rids themselves of the implants.)

Regardless, the Item Familiar is a no-go.


Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source. -- SRD

I've seen this extrapolated to include other bonuses; I'm pretty sure that ended up in an official FAQ as well. Bonuses from (distinct) implants may stack, bonuses from multiple instances of the same implant do not.

---

Wouldn't using Fell Drain violate Vow of Poverty, at least RAI? (... Why is Enervate Spell require Non-Good, but Fell Drain not?)

---

Given that the guy needs to swap out his 10 non-exalted feats for exalted ones, and there are only 7 or 8 non-vows he can take (since 3 are mutually exclusive, and depending on if he has a source of Spell Resistance), I wonder what his new vows will include.

[animewatcha]

Technomagical implants are like items in that they take up a slot, but have to be found instead of 'crafted'. They are 'on you' like your character is a cyborg. No sundering or pickpocketing, etc. Full metal alchemist kind of deal. They also don't count as grafts, but do violate vow of poverty. Grafts are same way in that they do.

-editing due to leaving thread reply open for too long-

[Necroticplague]

Hunh. I've never had a DM let someone get away with Grafts and VoP. They are still material possessions, and at the very least can be considered masterwork. (Well, I guess if someone disabled the VoP character and applied the grafts while they were unconscious, maaaaaaybe. It wasn't a voluntary violation and it would be hazardous to remove them. Probably suspend the VoP bonuses until the character rids themselves of the implants.)

Actually, grafts aren't material possession. They are merely modifications to your character. Fiend folio starts its graft section stating this ('Grafts have no statistics of their own. A graft might enhance some ability or characteristic of the creature its attached to, or grant the character some new ability'), and then goes on to say 'grafts are not magic items' twice before it gets to any in specific ones.

[jiriku]

It's not so much whether they're magic items as whether they're valuable items. No way would I let a character write 700k of combat augmentations into his backstory as gifts at the same time he's taking Vow of Poverty. Blatant exploitation.

How is he claiming so many epic feats...? Oh, wait. I see. He's starting the epic incantatrix progression at 16th level, isn't he? *facepalm*

[Crake]

the funny thing is he could have easily gotten plenty of epic feats at 21st level with just a little helping of our good ol' pal the dark chaos shuffle.

To be frank, that character sheet needs to be re-written in such a way that every single bonus is explained by the player. And basic rules need to be explained to them too...

[ZamielVanWeber]

How is he claiming so many epic feats...? Oh, wait. I see. He's starting the epic incantatrix progression at 16th level, isn't he? *facepalm*

Yerp. That and he is taking epic feats off of Vow of Poverty. He has a lot of feats he intends to take listed as well (just to be confusing).

[Necroticplague]

It's not so much whether they're magic items as whether they're valuable items. No way would I let a character write 700k of combat augmentations into his backstory as gifts at the same time he's taking Vow of Poverty. Blatant exploitation.

How is he claiming so many epic feats...? Oh, wait. I see. He's starting the epic incantatrix progression at 16th level, isn't he? *facepalm*

Actually, it's whether they're items at all. VOP doesn't let you have any material possessions outside of an annoyingly small whitelist. Whether they're magic or not is irrelevent.

[Telonius]

That's all kind of moot after third level anyway, when he takes Item Familiar.


In order to be an item familiar, a magic item must:

Have a price of at least 2,000 gp.
Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon).
Have a permanent magical effect that the character can (and knows how to) use.

So he'd need to either get rid of the Item Familiar (and all the skill bonuses from that - Autohypnosis really sticks out there, and color me shocked that Iaijutsu Focus didn't make it in there too), or get rid of all the extra feats.

[Bad Wolf]

And how is he entering at level 5? Pretty sure it requires 3rd level spells.

[Necroticplague]

And how is he entering at level 5? Pretty sure it requires 3rd level spells.

Can't see the sheet, but that's not that hard:Sanctum spell, versatile spell+heighten, Eldritch Corruption, Precocious Apprentice, Earth Spell.

[ZamielVanWeber]

He has none of those. He cannot enter at 5.

[Andezzar]

I can see it, but I don't see any of those early entry tricks I know. The character also seems to have way too many feats and not even VOP or its prerequisite Sacred Vow as mentioned earlier.

I really wonder whether the player actually looked at rulebooks before using that HTML document.

[Telonius]

He doesn't have any of that. Here's his feat list:

From Flaws: Sacred Vow, VoP
Level 1: Empower Spell, Nymph's Kiss, Able Learner [.... and, problem there. Three feats at first level. Two from Human is fine, the third is not.]
Level 2: Iron Will [Even levels = Exalted feat.]
Level 3: Item Familiar
Level 4: Techomagical Implant
Level 6: Selective Spell, Maximize Spell, Bind Vestige (Naberius) [The number, if not the type, of feats is okay here; One from regular level up, one from Incantatrix (if he'd somehow been able to qualify for it) and one from Exalted]
Level 8: Fell Drain
Level 9: Split Ray, Rapid Metamagic
Level 10: Invisible Spell
Level 12: Twin Spell, Arcane Thesis (Enervation), Great Fortitude
Level 14: Force of Personality
Level 15: Repeat Spell, Arcane Thesis (Haboob)
Level 16: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell), Retributive Spell, Widen Spell
Level 20: Miser with Magic
Level 21: Improved Spell Capacity, Eschew Materials


Just looked up Miser with Magic (a feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar) ... and it becomes clear why he wanted to bump up his Spellcraft check and get his Charisma up past +9. Holy gods. I've seen some references to errata that were issued that limited it to "spell levels per day," but can't seem to locate anything official on that.

[LoyalPaladin]

This is why we use HeroForge at my table. Too many player based mistakes from some members of the table.


AvatarVecna probably refers to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD).
Why would you remind me of this?!

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm surprised that this guy thinks he's good but took Improved Spell Capacity and Eschew Materials as his 21st level feats. I'm pretty sure there are much (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting) better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting) options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting).


Why would you remind me of this?!

So that you end up like this guy (http://www.mensagenscomamor.com/images/interna/new/frases_louco.jpg)?

[torrasque666]

He doesn't have any of that. Here's his feat list:

From Flaws: Sacred Vow, VoP
Level 1: Empower Spell, Nymph's Kiss, Able Learner [.... and, problem there. Three feats at first level. Two from Human is fine, the third is not.]You get an exalted feat at 1st if you can take it then, and Nymph's Kiss is​ exalted.


Level 6: Selective Spell, Maximize Spell, Bind Vestige (Naberius) [The number, if not the type, of feats is okay here; One from regular level up, one from Incantatrix (if he'd somehow been able to qualify for it) and one from Exalted] None of those are Exalted, and thus not valid. Then again.... stupid DCFS.

[Telonius]

He doesn't have any of that. Here's his feat list:

From Flaws: Sacred Vow, VoP
Level 1: Empower Spell, Nymph's Kiss, Able Learner [.... and, problem there. Three feats at first level. Two from Human is fine, the third is not.]
Level 2: Iron Will [Even levels = Exalted feat.]
Level 3: Item Familiar
Level 4: Techomagical Implant
Level 6: Selective Spell, Maximize Spell, Bind Vestige (Naberius) [The number, if not the type, of feats is okay here; One from regular level up, one from Incantatrix (if he'd somehow been able to qualify for it) and one from Exalted]
Level 8: Fell Drain
Level 9: Split Ray, Rapid Metamagic
Level 10: Invisible Spell
Level 12: Twin Spell, Arcane Thesis (Enervation), Great Fortitude
Level 14: Force of Personality
Level 15: Repeat Spell, Arcane Thesis (Haboob)
Level 16: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell), Retributive Spell, Widen Spell
Level 20: Miser with Magic
Level 21: Improved Spell Capacity, Eschew Materials


Just looked up Miser with Magic (a feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar) ... and it becomes clear why he wanted to bump up his Spellcraft check and get his Charisma up past +9. Holy gods. I've seen some references to errata that were issued that limited it to "spell levels per day," but can't seem to locate anything official on that.


Okay, found a link to it through Google (though not from their main site) here (http://www.kenzerco.com/errata/KoKPG.pdf). Kenzerco was the publisher of Kingdoms of Kalamar; so apparently they, and not WotC, are hosting the errata. (Also not surprising given the amount of legal wrangling the two companies have had over licensing issues).



You get an exalted feat at 1st if you can take it then, and Nymph's Kiss is​ exalted.

None of those are Exalted, and thus not valid. Then again.... stupid DCFS.

Ah, missed that - was looking in the "Voluntary Poverty" table and not in the feat description. So hooray, he actually did that right. And yeah, the problem with the feats not being exalted has been mentioned a few times.

[marphod]

Actually, it's whether they're items at all. VOP doesn't let you have any material possessions outside of an annoyingly small whitelist. Whether they're magic or not is irrelevent.


You're seriously basing this argument on the definition of an 'item'?
Lacking a definition in setting, here's the dictionary:

From thefreedictionary:

1. A single article or unit in a collection, enumeration, or series.

Grafts are a found in an enumerated list of grafts and associated function. They form part of a list of physical enhancements on a character sheet. They can be found as treasure, purchased, sold, traded, stolen, created, and destroyed. There are feats for creating them and synergy bonuses for having multiple of the same type (well, for elemental grafts from eberron). They take up physical space.

Compare this to something like using wish to get an inherent bonus (which accepting also would probably violate a VoP, given you could use the wish to help others instead) -- the bonus becomes a literal, inseparable part of the character -- You can't separate the bonus from the character (short of another wish) once granted. Once the Wish has been cast, the resulting bonus cannot be bought, sold, traded, found as treasure, etc. That is not an item.

[Ger. Bessa]

Then, from the list of his organs, a VoP should give up and cut off :
-his arms (graft or not).
-his legs (graft or not).
-his eyes (graft or not).
-his manhood/vajayjay (then again, there are other vows for that).
-his head.
-his colon.
-his feats (heh, some have priced value).
-his class levels ?

After all, they are not on the short list of allowed possessions.

EDIT : From RAW lists, organs may not be valid (must find a list of organs, I remember a vile spell that could cripple either the arms or the legs, and vorpal might add head to the list.)

Don't have the time, but there must be a list of what Not Having can give you as immunities (head for vorpal, eyes for blindness...).

Since there are class lists (and prestige class lists) and race lists, should you give up those too ?

Natural attacks, attack routines, deplacement modes and saves are also listed.

[LoyalPaladin]

So that you end up like this guy (http://www.mensagenscomamor.com/images/interna/new/frases_louco.jpg)?
I'm not a wizard!

[Flickerdart]

I'm not a wizard!
Aren't you? I bet you're wearing a shirt right now, you filthy wizard.

[Snowbluff]

Aren't you? I bet you're wearing a shirt right now, you filthy wizard.

And he is sitting.

[atemu1234]

And he is sitting.


Aren't you? I bet you're wearing a shirt right now, you filthy wizard.

Ironically I read these after just getting out of a pool, both shirtless and not sitting down.

[LoyalPaladin]

Aren't you? I bet you're wearing a shirt right now, you filthy wizard.

And he is sitting.
No! How did you know! I didn't even know I was a wizard! But all the signs point to it being true! I knew I should have put more points into Intelligence! I could be a tier 1 Paladin right now!


Ironically I read these after just getting out of a pool, both shirtless and not sitting down.
I think that makes you a Sorcerer.

[Uncle Pine]

No! How did you know! I didn't even know I was a wizard! But all the signs point to it being true! I knew I should have put more points into Intelligence! I could be a tier 1 Paladin right now!

:durkon:: You're a Wizard, LoyalPaladin. And a thumping good one at that, I'd wager. Once you train up a little.

By the way, how is a Sorcerer/Incantifier getting proficiency with all types of armor (assuming that ✓ means "proficient")?
Also, he technically managed to botch his spell component pouch's weight.

[LoyalPaladin]

Is said player really volatile? If you were to bring up the issues, would they say "Oh man, my bad. Can you help me fix this?" or would they say "Go bug someone else, I know what I'm doing. Gawd."?


:durkon:: You're a Wizard, LoyalPaladin. And a thumping good one at that, I'd wager. Once you train up a little.
This made me laugh so hard...

[Necroticplague]

Compare this to something like using wish to get an inherent bonus (which accepting also would probably violate a VoP, given you could use the wish to help others instead) -- the bonus becomes a literal, inseparable part of the character -- You can't separate the bonus from the character (short of another wish) once granted. Once the Wish has been cast, the resulting bonus cannot be bought, sold, traded, found as treasure, etc. That is not an item.

Tell me, would a VOP character have to cut off their own arm when they take the Vow? No? Then why does it matter if that arm is their original or one made out of metal gears? Would a Raptoran be forced to shred its wings? Then why one who had wings grafted to their form? Either way, it's just a trait that the character has. Grafts aren't a material possession. They are a modification to your stats, much like Prestige Races.

Side note: Actually, it's perfectly acceptable to use Wish on a VOP character. Not a material possession, doesn't violate. Grafts actually are similar, being permanent modifications to a character (heck, some grafts do give inherit bonuses to STR).

[Platymus Pus]

Doesn't look all that optimized, pretty sure you could turn around and full attack him if you felt like it.

[RandomMissy]

Tell me, would a VOP character have to cut off their own arm when they take the Vow? No? Then why does it matter if that arm is their original or one made out of metal gears? Would a Raptoran be forced to shred its wings? Then why one who had wings grafted to their form? Either way, it's just a trait that the character has. Grafts aren't a material possession. They are a modification to your stats, much like Prestige Races.

Side note: Actually, it's perfectly acceptable to use Wish on a VOP character. Not a material possession, doesn't violate. Grafts actually are similar, being permanent modifications to a character (heck, some grafts do give inherit bonuses to STR).

Here's all the things wrong with his grafts:

1) They dont stack. Their bonuses stack with each other where applicable, but it does not specify that it supersedes the rule about stacking from same source.
2) They each occupy a body slot, thus you cant stack them even if 1 is false.
3) He got VoP at level 1. So unless you completely disregard the fact that the items have a cost, he cant have them. This cost is the same as Magical Locations cost, a way to make you pay for getting the item during character creation.

So unless he got them with his level 1 gold... and THEN took VoP, then he is violating the vow. Not to mention he has the item familiar, which shows he doesnt care about the vow.

[Karl Aegis]

Don't you need 6th level spells, 120,000 gold, and be of nongood alignment to be an incantifier? Technically, it is also a Planescape only class, having to be a member of a faction that the Lady of Pain blasted out of existence long ago. Also, it is a pretty bad class, only gaining 2 metamagic feats, weird spell resistance and a random spell recharge/healing ability while also gaining no age limit. 3/5 casting also doesn't help it much. Pretty bad class all around.

[Starbuck_II]

Here's all the things wrong with his grafts:

1) They dont stack. Their bonuses stack with each other where applicable, but it does not specify that it supersedes the rule about stacking from same source.
2) They each occupy a body slot, thus you cant stack them even if 1 is false.
3) He got VoP at level 1. So unless you completely disregard the fact that the items have a cost, he cant have them. This cost is the same as Magical Locations cost, a way to make you pay for getting the item during character creation.

So unless he got them with his level 1 gold... and THEN took VoP, then he is violating the vow. Not to mention he has the item familiar, which shows he doesnt care about the vow.

Wait, don't Slither's (CG creatures in Underdark) give you their grafts for free if you volunteer for experimentation?
So if that was in his backstory then he did that.

[Necroticplague]

Wait, don't Slither's (CG creatures in Underdark) give you their grafts for free if you volunteer for experimentation?
So if that was in his backstory then he did that.

Silithar, actually (though that's probably an autocorrect error). Also, it's kinda beyond the point, because from what I've heard, he doesn't actually have grafts, he has 'technomagic implants', which lack the clause grafts has that makes them allowable by VOP ('grafts have no statistics of their own....').

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wait, don't Slither's (CG creatures in Underdark) give you their grafts for free if you volunteer for experimentation?
So if that was in his backstory then he did that.

They were updated in Lords of Madness but kept that fluff. You could argue, though, that taking payment from a silithar, graft or otherwise, violates VoP and causes you to lose it.

[Telonius]

Having a good chuckle about this one - apparently there is actually a prestige class in Dragon 339 called "Incantifier." Requires Alignment: Any nongood, and paying for a 120,000gp ritual. :smallbiggrin:

[atemu1234]

Having a good chuckle about this one - apparently there is actually a prestige class in Dragon 339 called "Incantifier." Requires Alignment: Any nongood, and paying for a 120,000gp ritual. :smallbiggrin:

Apart from the steep entry requirements, I liked that class.

[Andezzar]

So unless he got them with his level 1 gold... and THEN took VoP, then he is violating the vow. Not to mention he has the item familiar, which shows he doesnt care about the vow.This does not work either. It violates the character creation process detailed on p. 6 of the PHB. You take your feat(s) before spending any money.

[Crake]

They were updated in Lords of Madness but kept that fluff. You could argue, though, that taking payment from a silithar, graft or otherwise, violates VoP and causes you to lose it.

Well, it could be argued that the grafts are not payment, but the result of experimentation. Another way to put it would be: would you lose VoP if you had stuff grafted to you against your will? It's not exactly something you can just give away to an orphanage or something. I don't think you can even extract it and sell it even if you wanted to.

It's not like they'd've offered you cash instead, i'd image the deal would be "let me experiment on you, and you can reap whatever benefits may arise from said experimentation"

[Telonius]

::looks at a poster in the town square::
Wanted: Research volunteers. Contact Prof. Igor Xystus (Wiz. Nec.) for further details.
"Seems legit!"

[atemu1234]

::looks at a poster in the town square::
Wanted: Research volunteers. Contact Prof. Igor Xystus (Wiz. Nec.) for further details.
"Seems legit!"

Hey, he is a Sorcerer.

[SinsI]

Hunh. I've never had a DM let someone get away with Grafts and VoP. They are still material possessions, and at the very least can be considered masterwork.

A "friendly" demon has installed a graft inside you, replacing, say, your heart. How, exactly, do you remove that "material possession"? It is a part of you.

And lots of grafts can be gained by abusing Wish/Gate.

[Andezzar]

The problem is that the rules for VOP were not written with grafts in mind and vice versa. If they were, the rules would have mentioned the intended interaction.

[SinsI]

Without knowing his spells, it is impossible to tell what exactly is a mistake. I.e. you can get any amount of Skill Points by abusing Dark Chaos Shuffle - just take Open Minded, use up the points, and Shuffle it away. Skill points are not retroactive, so loss of the feat granting skill points doesn't result in the loss of the skill points you've already invested.

[Marlowe]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/elitest.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/grafts1.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/grafts2.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/grafts3.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/Joncharlesspencer/grafts4_1.jpg

[Andezzar]

Without knowing his spells, it is impossible to tell what exactly is a mistake. I.e. you can get any amount of Skill Points by abusing Dark Chaos Shuffle - just take Open Minded, use up the points, and Shuffle it away. Skill points are not retroactive, so loss of the feat granting skill points doesn't result in the loss of the skill points you've already invested.Open minded is dysfunctional. It does not even grant usable skill points if you select the feat normally, much less when you get it through DCS.

[Uncle Pine]

Open minded is dysfunctional. It does not even grant usable skill points if you select the feat normally, much less when you get it through DCS.

How exactly is Open Minded dysfunctional? I can't find it in the dysfunctional handbook and fail to see any contradiction in the feat's description, with itself or other rules.

[Andezzar]

You spend the skill points "as normal" which is during step 6 of the level up process and at no other point in time. You gain feats at step 7 or at some point totally outside the level up process with DCS.

[Uncle Pine]

You spend the skill points "as normal" which is during step 6 of the level up process and at no other point in time. You gain feats at step 7 or at some point totally outside the level up process with DCS.

This is nitpicking at best. "As normal" can also refer to the basic rules described in the Skills Summary section of the SRD:

If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point.

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).
Which is also probably what the writers had in mind, seeing as in the following sentence it's specified that you cannot exceed the normal maximum ranks cap with Open Minded.

[Andezzar]

As you quoted, skill ranks are bought with skill points. Skill points normally do not exist outside step 6 of the leveling up process. The open minded feat changes nothing about that.

[JeenLeen]

With Eschew Materials at level 21, he could have meant the epic version of it (Epic Eschew Materials, or Epic <some verb> Materials, I think?) that lets you disregard expensive material components. (In an epic game I was in, the cleric got that so that True Resurrection was free.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ignore Material Components. He is taking it at 22.

[atemu1234]

Ignore Material Components. He is taking it at 22.

... How in the nine hells is he taking it at level 22??

[Andezzar]

You can fulfil all prerequisites at level 22. Your maximum skill rank is level+3. Skill points are allocated before feats are selected.

[ZamielVanWeber]

... How in the nine hells is he taking it at level 22??

VoP I assume. He is taking everything under the sun with VoP feat slots.

[icefractal]

To be fair, having VoP allow any type of feats would get closer to making it balanced, and at Epic it's still almost certainly less than items would give.

... Except for the fact that he's taking items also. :smalltongue:

This reminds me of someone who used to be in the same group as me. Took great pride in his min/maxing skills - he could legitimately optimize to an extent, but a lot of it was blatantly stacking things that don't stack. Like wearing bracers of armor, full plate, and some cloak that granted an armor bonus all at the same time and saying they combined to give him 60 AC. Always got kind of annoyed when called on it, like being asked to follow the rules was an imposition.

[Menzath]

On techno magical implants

.Unsure of their true purposes, the newer civilizations revere such items as divine relics, ensconcing them in shrines and temples.
Emphasis mine.

Also in the revised graft rules in magic of eberon it says

Grafting is a complex and, for the most part, new method of item creation.
Again emphasis mine.
So I think in both cases they are clearly stated to be items, and have a gold cost value. So yeah either the grafts/implants or the VoP and all its bonus feats go.

Edit: holy shebang. Just read that lorddrako thread. Talk about insanity.