Adding power to my druid summoner!

[Max Caysey]

Hi... Im looking for ways to improve my druid summoner.

So far I'm going wizard 1, druid 19

The goal is getting invisible hasted, greebound creatures. But what else is there? I need more power.

Any suggestions would be most welcome!

[Hiro Quester]

The default power up is Augment Summoning feat, and its prerequisite of Spell Focus(conjuration). +4 to Str and Con for all summoned creatures. Especially at lower levels this makes a big difference.

Edit:
The Imbue Summons feat is a +1 metamagic that lets you cast buff spells while summoning, so the summoned creatures arrive pre-buffed. Get a ring of the beast for +1 level to your summons (cast SNA 3 and get SNA 4 creatures), to even out this metamagic cost.

The Invisible Spell makes your spell have "no visible manifestations" for no increased spell level. Applying this to a summons spell is a bit cheesy, though. If I were DM I might make that be a standard invisible spell, that expires as soon as the summoned creature attacks.

[Demidos]

Ring of Mighty Summons (Complete Mage 127, 14,000 gp) Max HP on summoned creatures, but reduced duration (halved).

Ring of the Beast (CC 141, 8,000 gp) Your Summon Nature's Ally spells count as the next highest level SNA, assuming you can cast a spell of that level. Cast SNA, use a spell slot one level lower.

Courtesy of Bunko's.

[Hiro Quester]

Ring of Mighty Summons (Complete Mage 127, 14,000 gp) Max HP on summoned creatures, but reduced duration (halved).

Ring of the Beast (CC 141, 8,000 gp) Your Summon Nature's Ally spells count as the next highest level SNA, assuming you can cast a spell of that level. Cast SNA, use a spell slot one level lower.

Courtesy of Bunko's.

Ring of Mighty Summons is of debatable value. The summoned creatures having half the duration means that their increased HP might never make a difference.

(You ninjad my edit on ring of the beast)

[Demidos]

While true, this also depends on your level and party composition and tactics. I have friends who build aggresively and they usually finish fights in one way or another within 3 rounds. I have built so defensively that fights extend to 30 rounds.


At level say, 10 -- 5 rounds vs 10 rounds. Anything with a decent attack at level 10 should be able to wipe the floor with anything you are summoning within 4 rounds, tops, faster if they have an AOE. Therefore, it is superior to have them guard you for another couple rounds if they'll survive.

Again, depends on party.

P.S:
To add to the previous commentary, I assume the level dip of wizard is to get the conjurer variant with rapid summoning and the free augment? While the free augment is nice, the rapid summoning might be suspect given that it does specify when you cast a summon monster spell (Vs SNA). You can get the SNA version with the druid shifter racial susbstitution level, where you trade your animal companion for a variety of nifty effects, increases standard action summons, bonuses to physical stats, quickened, arguably contingent spells, and some other nice stuff. As a nice fringe benefit, one type of shifter can give you bonus wisdom and see invisibility.

[eggynack]

The Imbue Summons feat is a +1 metamagic that lets you cast buff spells while summoning, so the summoned creatures arrive pre-buffed. Get a ring of the beast for +1 level to your summons (cast SNA 3 and get SNA 4 creatures), to even out this metamagic cost.
I've never really been a fan of this one. The buffs you can apply are mediocre to the point where I get the feeling that imbued summoning would still not necessarily be worth it were you paying only two of the costs, out of the feat, spell, and +1 adjustment. To make matters worse, you need to have spell focus (conjuration), which you don't necessarily have on a summoner, especially if you're getting augment in another manner. As I've occasionally noted in the past, a +1 metamagic on a summoned monster really needs to be getting something like a doubling of power, owing to the simple possibility of going 1d3 instead, and I don't think that the value applied by speed-buffing gets you there.


P.S:
To add to the previous commentary, I assume the level dip of wizard is to get the conjurer variant with rapid summoning and the free augment? While the free augment is nice, the rapid summoning might be suspect given that it does specify when you cast a summon monster spell (Vs SNA). You can get the SNA version with the druid shifter racial susbstitution level, where you trade your animal companion for a variety of nifty effects, increases standard action summons, bonuses to physical stats, quickened, arguably contingent spells, and some other nice stuff. As a nice fringe benefit, one type of shifter can give you bonus wisdom and see invisibility.
Yeah, I don't really love the wizard dip, especially on a summoner. As I noted above, spell level is even more important than usual when every advancement is offering a new and more powerful set of monsters. The shifter plan is a cool one as well, and my preferred build for it goes something like druid 8/moonspeaker 4/druid 8, perhaps with some other PrC dips added in if that's desired. You just don't get that much from more than four levels of moonspeaker. Alternatively, there's always the half-orc plan, using a dragonborn desert half-orc with half-orc substitution levels, which among other awesome things grant nearly free augment summoning.

Beyond that, it might be worthwhile to look into the chronocharm of the uncaring archmage (MIC, 86), which allows you to rapid cast a third level or lower spell once a day for 500 GP, ehlonna's brooch (CC, 134), which grants +1 HP/HD to your summons for 350 GP (though you have to worship ehlonna), golden desert honey (CM, 136), which lets you rapid cast your summons for 600 GP a pop, the summoner's totem (MIC, 187), which basically lets you do the imbued summoning thing for 3,100 GP (albeit with a swift action, and it only works on single animal summons), and of course, a belt of battle (MIC, 73), a classic action booster that is good for all occasions, including when you want more summons in a round.

[Hiro Quester]

I've never really been a fan of this one. The buffs you can apply are mediocre to the point where I get the feeling that imbued summoning would still not necessarily be worth it were you paying only two of the costs, out of the feat, spell, and +1 adjustment. To make matters worse, you need to have spell focus (conjuration), which you don't necessarily have on a summoner, especially if you're getting augment in another manner. As I've occasionally noted in the past, a +1 metamagic on a summoned monster really needs to be getting something like a doubling of power, owing to the simple possibility of going 1d3 instead, and I don't think that the value applied by speed-buffing gets you there.


This is all true. But a Ring of the Beat would even it out. When you wear the ring and cast an imbued summons, you cast a fourth level spell and summon prebuffed, SNA IV creature.

But, yeah, you have to think about what buffs are worth this. Greater magic fang? Air walk? Freedom of movement?

It might be only at very high levels I'd waste these kinds of buff spells on a rounds/level summoned ally, as opposed to on myself and AC, or on the party tank.

[eggynack]

This is all true. But a Ring of the Beat would even it out. When you wear the ring and cast an imbued summons, you cast a fourth level spell and summon prebuffed, SNA IV creature.
It wouldn't really even it out, because if you're able to apply a ring of the beast on your fourth level spell to get a prebuffed SNA IV, then you're also able to use that fourth level spell to get a normal SNA V or 1d3 SNA IV. After all, you can't use the ring to cast SNA of a level higher than you can normally cast.


But, yeah, you have to think about what buffs are worth this. Greater magic fang? Air walk? Freedom of movement?
They're decent spells, though only greater magic fang is actually usable with imbued summoning. They're just not worth the associated costs. If you were just spending the feat and the spell, or just spending the feat and the adjustment, or just spending the spell and the adjustment, then that'd at least be close to reasonable, but spending all three is ridiculous. Paying a feat for the ability to cast a third level spell on an increased rate companion is way too much investment to be worth what you're getting, because what you're getting right now is some minor bonuses to attack and damage. Realistically, the feat might not actually be that good in one of those reduced cost forms, though obviously the mode where you don't lose a feat is a rather costless ability to have access to, albeit one that I don't think it's worth using too often.

[bekeleven]

Paragnostic Apostle is solid for 1-3 levels on a summoner.

But a Ring of the Beat would even it out.
Untz untz untz untz

[Necroticplague]

Ashbound provides two excellent benefits: +3 luck to attack for summons (luck bonuses are fairly rare), and doubles the duration of summons.

[Hiro Quester]

Untz untz untz untz

Oh shoot. Even after reading your post, quoting mine, twice, I didn't notice that typo. Ring of the beat is for bard, not Druid.

[Bronk]

You could go for the 'Rashemi Elemental Summoning' feat... You could use SNA or Elemental Swarm to summon up air elementals, but as orglashes that can cast cone of cold 3 times per day with a caster level equal to its hit dice.

[eggynack]

Paragnostic Apostle is solid for 1-3 levels on a summoner.

I keep reading that class, hoping it'll be good because it's relatively cheap, but it keeps coming across as mediocre to me. Long term defensiveness isn't exactly the sort of thing I like to prioritize with summons, as an enemy killing your summon is nearly a best case scenario. I kinda like spacial awareness, because it's a nice combo with snowshoes, but it doesn't feel worth a level of class feature loss. That picking up knowledges is a non-trivial issue for druids is additionally problematic.

[bekeleven]

I keep reading that class, hoping it'll be good because it's relatively cheap, but it keeps coming across as mediocre to me. Long term defensiveness isn't exactly the sort of thing I like to prioritize with summons, as an enemy killing your summon is nearly a best case scenario. I kinda like spacial awareness, because it's a nice combo with snowshoes, but it doesn't feel worth a level of class feature loss. That picking up knowledges is a non-trivial issue for druids is additionally problematic.

I think you underestimate Mind over Matter.

Say you're level ~13 (Druid 11/Apostle 2 for simplicity). A Ringed Imbued SNA6 summons, let's say a triceratops. Imbue on Water Breathing if you need to act underwater, or Protection from Energy to fight a dragon, Rusted Blade/Greater Magic Fang to power up dem horns, or just barkskin for the +7 Natural Armor bonus. Combined with the Tri's 2 Hardness and Fast Healing 4 your tank is a threat needing attention, with the longevity to last through 26 ashbound rounds. Contrary to you, I think an enemy trying and failing to kill my summon is a best case scenario.

That said, when I went to write this up, I realized just how constrained the list of {Druid, Lv0-3, Range Touch, Beneficial} spells was. A lot of items I wanted to recommend ended up being different ranges, like dominate animal or swift fly.

It's still good on a focused summoner but as we both know there are only like 3 ways to leave druid and not lose power. If you're just in it for optimizing your awesome, go planar Shepard and stop reading this thread because this thread is interesting and you're boring.

[eggynack]

I think you underestimate Mind over Matter.

Say you're level ~13 (Druid 11/Apostle 2 for simplicity). A Ringed Imbued SNA6 summons, let's say a triceratops. Imbue on Water Breathing if you need to act underwater, or Protection from Energy to fight a dragon, Rusted Blade/Greater Magic Fang to power up dem horns, or just barkskin for the +7 Natural Armor bonus. Combined with the Tri's 2 Hardness and Fast Healing 4 your tank is a threat needing attention, with the longevity to last through 26 ashbound rounds. Contrary to you, I think an enemy trying and failing to kill my summon is a best case scenario.
What exactly are we facing here that fast healing 4 is making the difference between life and death for a long period of time? Yes, if the triceratops/combat manages to last 26 rounds, then that's 104 HP, which could plausibly be worth the level, but combat rarely if ever lasts that long, especially as you go up in level. Far more likely is the combat in question lasting, say, five rounds, meaning that paragnostic apostle is adding 20 HP, which is a really small amount at that level and attached to that much already existent beef. 20 HP will often be more than taken out by a single attack by that point, so now you're counting on there being an exact number of attacks in a combat for this to make a difference.

There are better setups in existence than the five round thing, certainly, and druids are good at extending combat, but at the same time, you're not really likely to push things all the way to 26 rounds. You'll maybe get to seven, or ten, and you're still kinda hanging out in the one attack zone, if a little less so now. Realistically, the greatest benefit here is if you want the summon to last across more than one encounter, and in that case you could have plausible benefit. Combine ashbound with some shifter stuff, and maybe even another extender, and you're pushing the summons to 50 or 100 rounds. If you're getting that kinda long term benefit, that could plausibly be worth it. That effect is especially interesting with something like animate with the spirit, which is that rare summoning spell that reads like a calling spell.

Finally, I feel like I've missed a major premise of your post, the value of mind over matter, though more because I don't really see how you expect it to work than because of straight up skimmery. SNA doesn't create a solid object, as is demanded by mind over matter. It brings one from one place to another, because it's a summoning spell, and it doesn't even do that, because I'm pretty sure that a creature isn't an object within the game rules. Barkskin also doesn't work with mind over matter, as barkskin provides a bonus to armor that is not an armor bonus. To get benefit of that ability on a druid, you'd probably be working with something like luminous armor, which makes for a good combination, but not one that especially works on a summoned triceratops (though I guess it would work on a summoned unicorn, for whatever that's worth). I definitely did underestimate mind over matter a little, because it hadn't entered my thinking at all despite its nature as essentially a blanket +2 to AC on anyone you want to buff, but you've vastly overestimated it, because it doesn't do much of anything for a summoner.


It's still good on a focused summoner but as we both know there are only like 3 ways to leave druid and not lose power. If you're just in it for optimizing your awesome, go planar Shepard and stop reading this thread because this thread is interesting and you're boring.
There's actually a lot of ways to leave druid, at least temporarily, and not lose power. A lot of them involve domain adding classes, but absolutely not all of them. I just don't currently think that paragnostic apostle is one of them. I'd like it to be, because I like there to be as many of those things as possible, but the effects here just read really marginal, and marginal isn't a place I think you want to be with a druid. On a dip, you want to be doing something like holt warden and/or contemplative, or hathran, or spelldancer. Not trying to extend the life of a summoned monster for an incredibly small amount of time.

Separately, I forgot for some reason, but holt warden is sweet on a summoner. The bar against clerics using domain slots for spontaneous curing doesn't exist for druids, so the class gives you a bunch of free summoning fuel to work with. Afterwards, you can also use a standard domain adder like contemplative to make those slots interesting in their standard form, but it's nowhere near necessary to do so. Just adding a free summoning slot per spell level, which can also be used for occasionally decent plant domain spells, is pretty awesome.