Fighter mult-iclassing, how good is shield master with experitse?

[djreynolds]

I'm playing a campaign and there is no healer or thief. I'm afraid one of us must help fill a niche. I'm a champion 3 level mountain dwarf fighter, we rolled and I was very lucky.
18s
12d
16c
10i
14w
8ch
I thought about multi-classing to rouge but it would require an ASI in dexterity. I could then pick expertise in Athletics, for shield master latter on, and expertise in thieves tools. I wish I had picked battle master as an archetype, but this is my first go round so 20/20 is hindsight. We have two monks and a ranger so perhaps it would be best just to go cleric, maybe light or life.

But the question is, just how good is shield master with the rouge's expertise in Athletics and a high strength?

[Once a Fool]

The bonus action shove part of shield master synergizes well with expertise in athletics, but does compete with the rogue's cunning action. Some people feel like that's not optimal, although I'm of the opinion that more options are never a bad thing in actual play.

That said, you might instead consider multiclassing into barbarian for advantage on strength checks while raging and just pick up training in thieve's tools through downtime.

If you're more concerned about disabling traps and opening locks than pushing people around (and down), you could pick up the magic initiate feat for the Guidance cantrip.

Come to think of it, Spare the Dying and Healing Word might keep someone alive in a combat, since you don't have a healer, so magic initiate might even be worth putting off shield master.

[djreynolds]

Awesome feedback. So it may not be worth even multi-classing period. I'll check out the cantrip selections. Hopefully, the other guys in my group will pick up a skill or two during downtime.

[Once a Fool]

Of course, taking a level of life cleric wouldn't be a bad way to do it, either.

The ranger can pick up the healing slack, a little, too.

Plus, someone could train into proficiency with herbalism kits while you're training in thieve's tools.

(Or just get one of the dex-based characters to pick up the thieve's tool proficiency.)

[Easy_Lee]

I actually wrote a build for this, the Iron Scoundrel. It works quite well, but requires more investment in rogue than fighter.

How many levels do you want to take? Do you want to be your party's rogue and fighter at the same time? What are your current stats?

[CNagy]

In play, there is a lot less actual conflict between the Rogue's Cunning Action and the Shield Master's shove. It's usually very clear which is preferable at any given moment. Having Fighter levels and shield proficiency means that you've already reduced some of the need to use Cunning Action--which is to say because you can stick around in melee range, you can also give up Cunning Action for the odd shield bash. If you are in melee and don't need to move, Cunning Action isn't giving you anything you can use. That's precisely where Shield Master gives you something you can use.

[Ashrym]

Atheletics and expertise works fairly well with the feat. A person doesn't need to MC high.

I wouldn't worry about not having taken battlemaster. Battlemaster is fun and useful, but not so mechanically superior as some think. Champion's a bit slower to come online and you usually feel it more at 7th level if the DM calls for a lot of ability checks or at least with initiative. You can see your choice of subclass better as you roll and make conscious choices that might use the bonuses. That's less of a "hidden" benefit than the critical range bonus.

The second fighting style can make a big difference because the champion can be built for melee and range toggling effectiveness, offensive and defensive melee toggling effectiveness, or add protection. Each of those gives active decision choices and the first two options gives some benefit over battlemaster regularly. A common alternative is defensive for higher AC, which is a good choice but also more "hidden" in the benefit if that's what concerns you.

Healing should not be too challenging if the ranger has cure wounds and lesser restoration. You already have second wind and the monks gain several status immunities. They might go open hand for a daily self heal. Just have someone with the healer feat should work.

No spellcaster has the spell slots to toss a lot of healing spells and cast anything else. MC to a cleric won't do that more effectively.

2cp

[Person_Man]

Options:

Out of combat, remember that allies can use the Help Action to grant Advantage on a Skill check. This is really important for finding and disarming traps.
If you want an "out of the box" suggestion, consider taking levels of Cleric or Druid. Both have access to Guidance, Enhance Ability, and plenty of healing and minions (which can often cover various Skill tasks). Cleric domains offer several sneaky/skill options. Druid can Wildshape into inconspicuous animals with high Dex and Stealth modifiers, and also has access to the uber Pass Without Trace. Also note that Wildshape forms would benefit from Action Surge (Multiattack twice per round) and Improved Critical, so your your Fighter levels wouldn't be "wasted." In both cases, you'd just want to avoid Wisdom dependent spells, which aren't strictly required for either class to function well.
As noted above, Easy_Lee's Iron Scoundrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405449-Shield-Master-Rogue-The-Iron-Scoundrel) build works well.
Thief Rogue with the Healer Feat works well, and is actually one of the best Bonus Action healers in the game. Though as noted above, Rogue already has a ton of uses for its Bonus Action.

[ruy343]

In your case, I think that your character should consider becoming the healer of the group rather than the thief. You have the wisdom score for it, after all (there's no reason why you should need a +3 in that stat if it's a secondary class). Alternatively, you could level up again in fighter and pick up the healer feat, which could help fill the niche and get people back on their feet mid-combat.

However, multiclassing to Knowledge (or Trickery, I think; I'm AFB) domain cleric would allow for you to pick up the tool/skill proficiencies of the rogue while grabbing the healing options that your party needs as well.

It's your choice, after all, but methinks that your character shouldn't be the one to be the rogue. You've invested too much in your wisdom stat to make that worthwhile!

[Once a Fool]

What are your current stats?

According to the OP, they are:
18 str
12 dex
16 con
10 int
14 wis
8 cha

This appears problematic for a heavy rogue multiclass, but I think it could work, since (as near as I can tell) a rogue can still sneak attack with a finesse weapon, even when using strength with it. Which is actually pretty awesome.

Of course, since you have to bump dex up to 13 in order to multiclass into rogue anyway, you might as well either bump it to 14 and (maybe) use medium armor, or take the resilience (dex) feat (which will be great with both evasion and shield master) and stick with heavy armor.

[Easy_Lee]

According to the OP, they are:
18 str
12 dex
16 con
10 int
14 wis
8 cha

This appears problematic for a heavy rogue multiclass, but I think it could work, since (as near as I can tell) a rogue can still sneak attack with a finesse weapon, even when using strength with it. Which is actually pretty awesome.

Of course, since you have to bump dex up to 13 in order to multiclass into rogue anyway, you might as well either bump it to 14 and (maybe) use medium armor, or take the resilience (dex) feat (which will be great with both evasion and shield master) and stick with heavy armor.

Ah, was posting from my phone and missed that. Yeah, you'd need one in DEX to multiclass rogue, so it may not be worth it by this point unless you were going to pick up athlete or resilient DEX or something. If you really want expertise in athletics, that'd be the only reasonable way to get it at this point.

[djreynolds]

The best feedback ever. In our party, we have three dexterity based guys, and bard correcting test papers in real life. I think hitting cleric up for healing maybe best and a quick dip in rouge for expertise in athletics and cunning action. I like shield master and your right there is no need for me to go all out rouge. I'll probably pick up cleric at 4th level. I know about the ASI, but we need some healing. Light cleric sounds good as does life. Knowledge.

We are in combat a lot. My daughter played for me yesterday and the party swelled up. I protect her sorcerer character and the squishies for that fight. Normally I'm in the fight. Sneak attacking, like iron scoundrel, is awesome. So I'll look at some quick dips. We have now 2 monks, ranger, sorcerer, eldricth knight, but no tank. Any suggestions are awesome.

I guess we didn't plan out our team well, but its cool to watch us all scramble and fumble around.

[ruy343]

You know, DJ, with War Cleric, you could use the bonus attacks shtick to use your shield and bash people as a bonus attack. That way you wouldn't need to pick up the shield mastery feat for a little while yet.

It also makes up for the penalty you'll incur for multiclassing because you won't get your extra attack until level 6 at earliest.

Just a thought.

(Also, if you make it to Cleric (War) 8, Fighter (Champion?) 5, you'll get 2 attacks per round for Weapon + 1d8 + ability modifier damage each, which can be action surged and battle inspiration'd as you see fit. You'd still get a lot of the DPR that you would get at level 20, plus additional cleric spells and plenty of tankiness. That would be a fun build...)

[djreynolds]

That is great advice. War cleric seems like a good choice. It allows me to heal and shield bash. A nice balance of offense and defense

[CNagy]

You know, DJ, with War Cleric, you could use the bonus attacks shtick to use your shield and bash people as a bonus attack. That way you wouldn't need to pick up the shield mastery feat for a little while yet.

It also makes up for the penalty you'll incur for multiclassing because you won't get your extra attack until level 6 at earliest.

Just a thought.

(Also, if you make it to Cleric (War) 8, Fighter (Champion?) 5, you'll get 2 attacks per round for Weapon + 1d8 + ability modifier damage each, which can be action surged and battle inspiration'd as you see fit. You'd still get a lot of the DPR that you would get at level 20, plus additional cleric spells and plenty of tankiness. That would be a fun build...)

Divine strike is once/turn, but it is still nice to have a second attack (or even an additional feat if you go one more level of Fighter.)

[ChubbyRain]

My friend and I have a rogue we use every so often called the "Cunning Knight".

V. Human (Moderately Armored)
Any background
Strength based.
14 Dex maximum
Con/Wis

Uses a rapier and rotella shield.

18 AC
Very mobile
Level 4 has the build with shield master.

It is an absolute beast in combat. You " power attack" instead of "sneak attack" and really you play like an upgraded fighter.

You can keep your 16 Str for a long time, expertise in athletics makes up for it and more, and your damage comes from having advantage (sneak attack) without help.

[djreynolds]

I like it. So good you should copyright it. By the way can sword n board use great weapon master feat, or part of it. And can rouge/other?

[ruy343]

I'm AFB, but pay attention to the parts where it says that two hands are needed for a given bonus. If you're using a shield, you cannot use your hand, according to the rules (ignore realism on this one). Therefore, sword and board cannot get any of the great weapon master feats that require two hands unless they dropped their shield and used a versatile/two-handed weapon with both hands.

[djreynolds]

Yes, but the cleave portion just says melee attack. I think. But I do understand the idea with a two handed chop powers your way through the attack into the next. I guess it's fair. Thanks

[ruy343]

Yes, but the cleave portion just says melee attack. I think. But I do understand the idea with a two handed chop powers your way through the attack into the next. I guess it's fair. Thanks

You're right: the first part does not require a two-handed weapon, according to the rules as written. It could be a war pick (a non-versatile, one-handed weapon) too.