Modern Worlds and Warfare, with monster races.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, not necessarily monsters, but classic fantasy creatures, or at least the intelligent ones. What does modern military activity and modern society in general look like with them around?

Inspired by the thread about Centaurs being obsolete in modern military's.

Assume for this thread that they've kinda always been around, or at least been around as long as humans have.

[Tvtyrant]

Way too complicated if we don't specify a type of monster. The effects of Mind Flayers would be much different than pixies.

[Maglubiyet]

I see lawsuits as the TSA bans races with SLA and natural weapons from flying.

[Metahuman1]

Elves, Halflings, Pixies, Dragons and Giants, just for some iconic one's for starters.

[goto124]

Taking ideas from the centaur thread: designing toilets.

[Vitruviansquid]

The way I picture it, assuming the evolution of military technology takes the same course in our fantasy world as it did in the real world, there would be militarized races and non-militarized races.

Militarized races would tend to be those that are roughly human-shaped, like elves, dwarves, orcs, and such, or those that are abundant in the nation in question. The Militarized races are the ones who do the majority of the fighting because their bodies are compatible with the majority of the equipment that can be produced, which will be standardized to some degree because it's easier and more efficient that way. In some cases, races with less common shapes will also be militarized as specialized troop types (merfolk might be specialized to some task in naval or coast guard forces). Those races that just don't fit the military for some reason, like monstrous ogres that are too dumb to be effective military personnel or a centaur minority in a nation that just doesn't fit any of the gear, will be non-militarized races. They might take up a greater economic burden during wartime, or be relegated to a social underclass because of their inability to perform military service. In some nations, even races that fit the gear might be relegated as a non-militarized race if there are enough other, more apt to fighting races. In a nation with an orcish majority, humans might not be seen as fit to fight because they lack orcish aggression and hardiness.

[genmoose]

In my opinion, a world that really has other races besides man is going to be heavily militarized. Despite all our history of war and conflict the other side has always been human. Sure he may speak a different language, look a little different or pray a different way but in the end we're all human and there is hope of reconciliation and cooperation. So there's always that feeling that maybe we don't need those extra tanks or more powerful weapons; maybe we should just all get along since we're really not that different.

However when governments convince their people that the enemy is less than human, that's when you get wholesale slaughter. When there's the treat of being totally wiped out, people are a lot more willing to dump piles of resources into defense.

In WW2 the US put about 11% of it's population (16.1M out of 139M) in uniform to fight. To put that in perspective we now have about 1.3M active duty in uniform out of a population of about 320M so about 0.4%. So that's about the size that most of us feel is appropriate to defend against current threats (China, Russia, ISIS, etc). If we replaced Canada with lets say hordes of forest/mountain orcs, I'd bet we'd be up to or beyond 1945 levels an increase of almost 30 fold. We'd have about 40 million people in uniform, 300 divisions, 300 carrier battle groups, etc.

I'd also expect to see a lot less international trade between nations. Right now we take advantage of the fact that everyone can eat the same food, use the same medicine, etc. This may not be the same if it's ogres and dwarves across the sea.

[Metahuman1]

Then again, that mind set sounds like it would lead to a much earlier evolution of the idea of mutually assured destruction. Or like it might alternatively foster an environment of either a LOT of serious backstabbing and/or a lot of just before WWI style alliances trying to make sure of Mutually assured destruction perhaps?

And here's a though for the more small scale side of things, let's look at how some of these races would fit into a military outfit. Let's start with a cool one, dragons.

[goto124]

Why would dragons need armor? Oh right, the belly.

[Mr. Mask]

It'd be hard to use a dragon in modern warfare. A whole lot of weapons can penetrate plenty of armour, and lots of aircraft fly higher and faster than a dragon plausibly could. You could make use of smaller dragons that are basically biological flamethrowers that can climb well (AKA: fly). If they're used as ground troops and they're strong, you might be able to armour them pretty well so they work kind of like a small tank.

Of course, it depends on the dragons, and how much magic they can leverage.

[genmoose]

In this context I think dragons would do very well for close air support. I'd imagine them to be at least as tough as most helicopters and the capability of fire would work out just as well as rocket or cannon fire. Auto cannon fire would probably be my method of engagement (something like a ZSU-23) for a dragon combining rate of fire, penetration, range and economy.

I agree that most dragons would be shredded by modern AP warheads but so would almost anything else.

What could really be a pain in the ass for armored divisions would be a horde of rust monsters. Just air drop those suckers or sneak some in at night and by morning your tanks, trucks, artillery, APC's, IFV's, etc are just a pile of red dust.

Other difficult monsters to counter would be those that are immune or resistant to piercing weapons since most modern weapons are almost entirely based on piercing. Even something as easy to conjure up as skeletons would be trouble for someone with a machine gun. You'd have to fall back to something with significant blast (bombs, artillery) to do much.

[Mr. Mask]

Depends on the helicopter. Armoured short range attack helicopters are well armoured, able to resist some forms of anti-air fire. You need a hefty missile to stop those. You'd need a pretty fantastical dragon to get something as good as that. And with helicopters, one of their best advantages are mobility, so if the dragon doesn't have advanced flying capabilities they aren't likely to keep up.

That's not to say I dislike the idea of dragons in a modern setting, but you need to super them up to match.


Not sure why rust monsters would matter, unless they burrow. Blast them from a distance with shells, and it doesn't matter if the shells rust on impact. If you can sneak people in around the tanks, just plant c4 charges, or steal the armour.

[Stellar_Magic]

Why would dragons need armor? Oh right, the belly.

Even a Dragon can't survive a battleship shell. Hell, I bet a depleted uranium sabot from an Abrams would go right through their scales like it was butter, and lets not even think about nuclear artillery shells... Plus in terms of numbers, the total number of dragons would be in the mere hundreds, at most.

Now, Dragons wouldn't be completely vulnerable, but most of their advantages would be ripped away from them. It flies, but not as fast as a jet, it breathes fire and has spells, but man has ever larger guns with more and more armor penetration and explosives. Still, Dragons are so long lived, wealthy, and intelligent that if they were sensible... they'd have an army of their own to counter the threat of human dragon hunters. They might even run nations in some areas.

Now... onto the other races...

Elves... well, they're like humans but very long lived. I'd guess any nation they'd be leading would be slower to embrace new technologies. Still, having a human lifetime to hone their skills means a lot. I'd expect Elves to mix magic with technology... so we'd see some strange stuff come from them. In an integrated society, they probably come out atop the social ladder... simply cause they have the time to climb it.

Faeries/Pixies? Well, I don't see them getting involved with human society, and probably wouldn't be drawn into military conflict. Plus, they can always retreat to their traditional 'faerie realm' or whatever you want to call it and seal themselves off.

Halflings... totally integrated, and oddly I bet they'd be involved in industry. During the 1800s I'd have said, oh... adult powder boys for the Royal Navy, and small people to fix machinery and work in the coal mines.

Giants? Hunted to extinction... Unless they're more intelligent sorts.

[Strigon]

Am I the only one who thinks dragons would be running the show?
This is the Information Age, and assuming dragons are an intelligent race, they're normally far more intelligent than mere humans. They also don't have qualms about much of anything, like elves normally do.
Dragon technology would be the order of the day, and dragon strategists would completely outdo anything else - probably including computers, just by having centuries of experience. Why waste that on a glorified helicopter?

[Mr. Mask]

Depends on the dragons. Most depictions don't seem to have a lot to do with society or technology. Intelligent dragons are often powerful spirits, things far beyond the ken of mortal men. Some Chinese dragons are known to cause hurricanes, and other events well beyond human powers. Civilized dragons would likely have a lot of sway.

[Metahuman1]

Regards to Dragons: Let's assume for sake of something more interesting then "there lack luster air support." that at some point they got on board with the idea they needed to be part of the civilization of the world, because otherwise it really was getting to where humans that could take them didn't require all the kings horses, men, wizards, and a bit of help form god to fix there little red wagon once and for all. It just took an increasingly small number of humans with money and increasingly small amounts of skill and the desire to do so, and a few of there increasingly new and effective toys. And yes, naturally, that there smart and long lived.




Giants: Let's make assumption that at least SOME species are as intelligent as if not more intelligent then average for humans, and that they tend to be significantly longer lived.

[Stellar_Magic]

Dragons on Wall Street... who needs to go raiding a kingdom's store of gold to get a horde when they can just sit back and make more wealth for themselves through investment?

I actually had a dragon that ran a trading company once, let's just say the pirates in the world quickly realized that attacking one of her ships was a horrendous mistake.

[Mr. Mask]

There was some game that used that premise of a technological dragon, I did not like it. They gave you a jetpack, which was neat, a jet engine on a dragon might actually work (if they can get around a bunch of issues). Stuff like jet engines also increase your flying capacity, so you can add on some armour. And you could add on missiles. Though, as that keeps going, you'll start to wonder where the dragon's advantage comes from, as their flame breath gets to seem increasingly short-ranged compared to modern weapons. They might have some advantage over aircraft after adding tech to them, but I'm not sure how you'd work that out (a specific dragon would help).

If dragons decide to have armies, being a dragon will give them coolness points in recruiting ads. Other than that, hard to say.


As for giants, as long as they're intelligent and mostly human in physiology, they ought to do fine, depending on their culture and industry. Bigger people can move more stuff which is handy for construction, loading heavier shells faster, and carrying heavier guns and armour. It does make it harder to make use of cover, and you may end up with some very large tanks (or, if they're too big, you don't need tanks).

[Freelance GM]

I see Halfling special forces being a thing. Smaller targets, naturally good at sneaking, and according to D&D, strong enough to use smaller human weapons with little or no trouble. Great, now all I can imagine is a team of Hobbit special forces.

Hobgoblins would get exponentially scarier in this hypothetical future. They're known for being disciplined, warlike, and mimicking other species' militaries. They're also known for having a natural aptitude for tactics and strategy. Hobgoblins have the potential to become a major power in this setting. All it would take is a single legion getting guns, so that they could learn to build their own guns, so they could conquer other legions, so they could form a warband large enough to contend with the other races. According to the 5E MM, Hobgoblins are actually pretty good at crafting weapons, armor, and war machines, so it's a pretty real possibility.

Oh, and it's probably game over if Hobgoblins get to nuclear weapons.

[Mr. Mask]

Depends how good hobgoblins are at science. While there's definite crossover, weapon development is a little different from developing atomic bombs. So, it'd be more that hobgoblins think of good ways to adapt technologies to warfare and improving weapon systems, rather than developing gunpowder and atomic weapons themselves, probably.


Halflings may well be special forces for certain missions like scouting. Of course, they need to be able to carry the radio equipment, and their weapons have to be powerful enough for the task.

[Metahuman1]

There are a number of technologies now that make the radio equipment smaller and smaller. And a number more that make the recoil on a firearm less and less with out having to compromise stopping power or accuracy or rate of fire or the like. So, Halfling spec ops with the right gear isn't actually that far fetched too me.

And one wonders, Hobgolins with Nukes. Would they have enough sense to keep there fingers off the button just so they could be around to do more fighting later as a species? (They'd HAVE to understand the concept of the other guy being willing and able to take them out with them.)

[Mr. Mask]

Yes and no. Radio tech has gotten a lot smaller, but long range military radios are still pretty hefty. A halfling radio operator or two might do fine, or you could try something like use a shorter range radio if it comes to it. There is a chance it could get smaller still, but that would be more a matter of future warfare discussion.

It's similar with firearms. A couple of recoilless firearms have been developed, but they have delicate parts and a habit of not functioning in cold weather. Muzzle brakes will reduce muzzle climb, but it creates more backward recoil, as well as putting more flash, smoke and sound in the shooter's direction, potentially causing hearing and blinding issues. And the bigger the calibre, the heavier the ammo and barrel at the very least.

Halfling spec ops can probably get by with smaller calibres, and just carrying the radio with two halflings or a weaker radio or whichever.

[Metahuman1]

Perhaps, but that's not the only recoild reduction tech out there. They make stocks for rifles and shot guns that can take out 85% of the recoil right there. And suppressed weapons, even with standard ammo are quiter and have less flash, but can also experience a 50% reduction in the recoil the weapon gives off.

I don't know about either being standard military equipment, but for the kinds of missions you'd be sending Halflings on, they'd make sense, and they'd let you send full caliber, sturdy fire arms. If your smart about how the magazines fit in, they'd also let you not skimp on capacity.

[Mr. Mask]

Where are you getting these numbers? I'm interested to read more about these gun stocks. What are they called?

[Metahuman1]

I'll look it back up for you later. *Work and college semester are killing me till this coming Monday afternoon at the earliest.*

Though I grant the stocks might be for shotguns only now that I think about it. Been a few years. (I remember seeing one when they first went on sale to the civilian market and thinking that it was neat and if I ever got around to owning a shot gun I'd make it a point to get one of those stocks for it since I'm extremely recoil sensitive myself.)

[GungHo]

Halflings... totally integrated, and oddly I bet they'd be involved in industry. During the 1800s I'd have said, oh... adult powder boys for the Royal Navy, and small people to fix machinery and work in the coal mines.
Ignoring the growth in drone space, they'd be great for pilots. Imagine all the space you'd save in the cockpit.


Am I the only one who thinks dragons would be running the show?
I'd bet on the F-16 every time.

[Eldan]

Halflings would have btons of advantage, as soon as warfare isn't done primarily in melee and I'd say it just grows the higher technology gets. They are smaller, so you can save space on vehicles. They don't need as much food, either. They are only slightly weaker, and can still carry firearms that are very deadly. Plus, at least by D&D rules, they are plain better at shooting, so they'd make impressive snipers, too. Their main disadvantage, I'd guess, would be their speed.

[Beleriphon]

Ignoring the growth in drone space, they'd be great for pilots. Imagine all the space you'd save in the cockpit.


I'd bet on the F-16 every time.

Yeah, but dragons can land pretty easily, they are probably more stealthy than most fighter jets in general. Most games have them presented as being flying M1 Abrams in terms of armouring. An F-16 is a poor choice to attack tanks, given that was designed to counter ground based AA missile batteries in wild weasel missions. If I were to going to If you went with full blown D&D ancient dragons, then most fighter planes are probably screwed. Shadowrun did that in Germany and it basically took the entire German airforce, and a nuke, to finally "kill" one.

So it depends on how you view dragons. If they're just large fire breathing lizards, that happen to be able to fly, then yeah any fighter jet or dedicated anti-air weapons should be able to bring one down. If dragons are instead incredibly ancient, intelligent and inherently magical creatures then maybe AA guns and depleted-uranium AP rounds wont do much. If you take D&D 5E route, ancient enough dragons can't be hurt by non-magical weapons so unless you have +1 Stinger missile system you're pretty much up the creek.


Halflings would have btons of advantage, as soon as warfare isn't done primarily in melee and I'd say it just grows the higher technology gets. They are smaller, so you can save space on vehicles. They don't need as much food, either. They are only slightly weaker, and can still carry firearms that are very deadly. Plus, at least by D&D rules, they are plain better at shooting, so they'd make impressive snipers, too. Their main disadvantage, I'd guess, would be their speed.

Speed is only an issue when on foot, and attempting to move quickly. In general being a bit slow isn't that big of a deal when the actual other benefits outweighing them in general.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, but dragons can land pretty easily, they are probably more stealthy than most fighter jets in general. Most games have them presented as being flying M1 Abrams in terms of armouring. An F-16 is a poor choice to attack tanks, given that was designed to counter ground based AA missile batteries in wild weasel missions. If I were to going to If you went with full blown D&D ancient dragons, then most fighter planes are probably screwed. Shadowrun did that in Germany and it basically took the entire German airforce, and a nuke, to finally "kill" one.

So it depends on how you view dragons. If they're just large fire breathing lizards, that happen to be able to fly, then yeah any fighter jet or dedicated anti-air weapons should be able to bring one down. If dragons are instead incredibly ancient, intelligent and inherently magical creatures then maybe AA guns and depleted-uranium AP rounds wont do much. If you take D&D 5E route, ancient enough dragons can't be hurt by non-magical weapons so unless you have +1 Stinger missile system you're pretty much up the creek.In that case, use an A-10 Warthog. 30 mm rounds @ 990 m/second and 3900 rounds/minute should be able to take down anything. And in AD&D (and BECMI), laser weapons were considered magical for the purposes of hitting monsters immune to non-magical weapons. I'd certainly allow missiles to count as magical, and probably DU rounds as well (Depleted Uranium is inherently radioactive, after all).

Jet Fighters are substantially faster than dragons, and have much longer-ranged weapons (and longer "eyes" as well). In Shadowrun, a vigilant rotary autocannon loaded with AP rounds would have no trouble taking down a dragon. At least in 3E. (Also, in SR, dragons, even Great Dragons, don't have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power)

[Beleriphon]

In that case, use an A-10 Warthog. 30 mm rounds @ 990 m/second and 3900 rounds/minute should be able to take down anything. And in AD&D (and BECMI), laser weapons were considered magical for the purposes of hitting monsters immune to non-magical weapons. I'd certainly allow missiles to count as magical, and probably DU rounds as well (Depleted Uranium is inherently radioactive, after all).

Jet Fighters are substantially faster than dragons, and have much longer-ranged weapons (and longer "eyes" as well). In Shadowrun, a vigilant rotary autocannon loaded with AP rounds would have no trouble taking down a dragon. At least in 3E. (Also, in SR, dragons, even Great Dragons, don't have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power)

Yeah, even great dragons in Shadowrun aren't immune, but I think there's a reason Lolwfyr runs a megacorp rather than physically stomping things. Not that he can't but rather that he can't be bothered. Fighter jets are faster than dragons, but if we're doing traditional D&Desque dragons it wouldn't be that hard to make themselves immune to most conventional weapons. Never mind the fact that some of them can shape change.

Leaving dragons alone for a second, what about stuff like beholder. Oh gods, could you imagine a beholder attack squad just disintegrating the enemy? I mean what kind of conventional weapons deal with disintegration rays? Sure beholds are susceptible to bullets but disintegration is definitely the best option for anti-material.

[NRSASD]

Here's another question for everyone: Assuming you could mount a torpedo/missile launch system on a sea serpent of some flavor, would it be an effective submarine replacement? I can see it being a lot harder to detect (no engine sounds) and remain submerged forever, but it would have to forage constantly which would reduce its operational time. Also, can't really function as a transport for spies.

[Mr. Mask]

Recoil: I figured it'd be something on the civilian market. If someone tells you it reduces recoil by 80+%, they're selling something. A stock can be padded so that it hurts less when you absorb the recoil, but this doesn't actually reduce recoil. I'm not sure where the 50% figure comes up for silencers, but I did find one source that said up to 50% of recoil can be caused by propellant gasses, and silencers can slow those gasses to an extent--but they'd have to stop them entirely to reduce recoil by 50%. Adding weight to the end of the gun barrel will help to dampen recoil a little, so it hurts less.


With halflings, they'll potentially have advantages in certain roles, though they may have drawbacks as well. They'll be slower to reload heavy shells, may have issues repairing heavy machinery, having less capacity for injury, etc.. This wouldn't prevent a halfling military, and they may still be optimal for certain tasks and even passable in tasks they're worse at. Not aruging against halflings, but that physical strength may have more usefulness in modern military than it is given credit for.


Magic Dragons: Any suitably advanced technology will seem like magic. If dragons have enough magic, they could fly faster than a jet, with more armour than some bunkers, and summon hurricanes and tsunamis to devastate any land that incurs their wrath. The question is simply how deific the dragons are.


Sea Serpents: That's a really interesting idea. I guess we can check how visible whales are to radar. It also depends on how sea serpents see underwater. If they use active sonar to look around, then subs can spot them.


Since we're discussing modern war potential of fantasy creatures, how about the half humanoid naga? Does having a snake tail or reptile qualities pose any particular advantages or drawbacks? IF they're cold blooded, it makes some environments very hard to fight in?

[Beleriphon]

Sea Serpents: That's a really interesting idea. I guess we can check how visible whales are to radar. It also depends on how sea serpents see underwater. If they use active sonar to look around, then subs can spot them.

Whales aren't particular detectable by active sonar, but because they use what amounts to active sonar to navigate they're very easy to find from incredibly long distances. While silly the movie Down Periscope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_Periscope) features a bit where the crew uses recorded whale song to trick a surface ship to ignore them. So finding whales uses a sub's passive sonar for the most part, largely because they are so damned loud.

That said, dragon turtles. Could you imagine one of those attacking a harbour. They are effecitvely silent, navigate by sight by all accounts, and don't need to surface for air for extremely long periods of time.


Since we're discussing modern war potential of fantasy creatures, how about the half humanoid naga? Does having a snake tail or reptile qualities pose any particular advantages or drawbacks? IF they're cold blooded, it makes some environments very hard to fight in?

Anything cold blooded and remotely snake like should probably only be functional a few hours a day during peak sunlight hours in tropical, or subtropical environments. Most snakes don't move far, or fast unless pressed. As such I'd assume that something like the naga or yuan-ti aren't entirely cold blooded. They're probably work well in jungle as well as swampy or marshy terrain, but would be ill-suited to nearly anything else.

[Lord Torath]

Since we're discussing modern war potential of fantasy creatures, how about the half humanoid naga? Does having a snake tail or reptile qualities pose any particular advantages or drawbacks? IF they're cold blooded, it makes some environments very hard to fight in?Tails instead of legs are slooooowww. The fastest snakes top out at about 10 mph. The fastest human can do just under 3 times that. Granted, most of us can't go anywhere near that fast, but then, most snakes top out at about 3 mph. There's a reason cheetahs have legs and not snake-bodies. On the other hand, snake-like tails let you do this (http://www.goblinscomic.org/09132011/).

[Rainbownaga]

No mention of trolls yet? Big targets, but unless you're carrying incendiary weapons the'll just keep coming.

I'm liking the thought of dragons with jetpacks. Imagining it meleeing aircraft like Starscream in the Transformer movie.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'd be most afraid of anything that's intelligent and small, reproduces quickly and flies. Whether they're some sort of pixies, winged goblins or intelligent crows.

Sure, a taking a single individual in a fistfight is easy. But we have to consider the bigger picture. Small flying creatures can adapt way more easily to city life than we large immobile types can. Imagine the cities they'd build, the air buzzing with creatures going about their daily business. Individual mobility is a big problem in modern cities, but not if everyone can just take a straight path to their goal at 50 km = 30 miles an hour. In any age or stage of technology they'd have an easier time gathering larger groups, even if only because they need less food per head than we do. Being naturally easier to gather around an organize might give them a technological head start pretty soon, and they wouldn't need to worry about overpopulation as soon as humans. In terms of modern warfare any small creature is a good pilot, tank driver, astronaut, submariner etc. They provide one intelligent brain while taking up a fraction of the space of such a brain packed inside a human. A tank could be a lot lighter if the interior didn't need to be as large. Having to make it fly by wire and using an autoloader are a small price to pay for that advantage. Not to mention that as a flying race they might have more of a natural aptitude for understanding flight, giving them the biggest technological lead of all in aviation, which happens to have been a pretty big factor in warfare during the last century or so.

Superior numbers, an advantage in innovation? We're screwed.

The only real hope we have is that industrial task stay dependent on brute force for long enough, and they can't find a way to use machines, animals or say ogres or giants for that.

[Mr. Mask]

Rainbow: I think tracer rounds burn pretty good. That being said, I don't know how much the wound cavity gets burnt up, so trolls might still be able to recover from some of the damage. It depends on how regenerative the trolls are. If you have werewolves that can survive being blown in two pieces, silver shrapnel and bullets is going to be a lot more important than if blowing their head off with regular buckshot is effective.


Expert: It's a mixed bag. They do make smaller pilots, but how good is their vision and field of vision? How fast are their brains compared to humans? And how long does it take how many of them to load an HE round of suitable size to damage human armour (you can use autoloaders, but they are prone to jamming and other issues)? There's also the problem that if their tanks get busted, they'll need a lot of heavy machinery on scene in order to make repairs (it'll turn standard repairs into a heck of an architectural project), which also prevents repairs near battle zones. Also with aviation, how good is their resistance to cold? Smaller creatures tend to have more trouble dealing with cold, which is an issue with early planes at high altitudes.

This isn't intended as criticism, you can still get around some of these deficits through ingenuity and planning, and your points do apply. Just that they have their own challenges to deal with and quirks which can be exploited (like if they can only work in hot climates, that gives them much less land and time to work with).


Beleriphon, Torath : Snakeness is an issue in that case. With modern tech, they could try developing electric blankets and working in shifts to overcome these issues, but it doesn't sound easily overcome. It's questionable if you can even get a cold blooded brain of sufficient intellect. On the bright side, antiquated population numbers might be higher in suitable areas, and they could survive in environments others couldn't(?).