Villainous Competition V: A Contest You Can’t Refuse

[Telonius]

So listen up. We’re pleadin’ the fifth – fifth evil villain competition, that is. Get ready to Optimize My BBEG!

First One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395046-Villainous-Competition-Or-Optimize-my-BBEG!)
Second One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400517-Villainous-Competition-Round-2-Or-Give-me-something-evil!&p=18868986#post18868986)
Third One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406015-Villainous-Competition-3-Or-No-Holds-Barred!)
Fourth One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413480-Villainous-Competition-IV-or-The-Truth-is-in-the-(Blood)-Pudding)

We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Secret Laboratory: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. We don’t want to make this too easy, do we?

Plotting Time: Contestants will have until 17:59 CST (23:59 GMT) Friday July 10th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor (yours truly, Telonius). Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until Friday July 24th to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.

Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
Originality - Is it unexpected?
Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG the players talk about for years to come?

Build Elegance: Fully monstrous builds are allowed, but may be penalized at the judges’ discretion. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels. Amount of sources can be penalized, but obscurity of sources should not be penalized. Count the three Core books as one source. Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 0 if it makes the field unfair.)
Special note on Unearthed Arcana: You can refer to the Code of Omerta (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/honor.htm#omerta) listed in the SRD when describing the character, but be aware that there will be no mechanical benefits for using the Honor system described there.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.


Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


You can use the below table for Spells.

Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code Immediately Below,
Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-





Speculation: Start planning out your heist, but remember, nobody likes a stool pigeon. Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines. We’ve got a nice set of concrete overshoes for anyone who thinks they’re a wiseguy.

We’re looking for a few honest judges who’ll stay bought by the Chancellor, and a bunch of good foot soldiers to submit builds. So line up the usual suspects, because the concept for this 5th Contest is:

The Crime Lord
Godfather. Kingpin. Capo di tutti capi. Whatever words you use, this character is the head of a criminal organization. Whether they were born into the family business, or clawed their way to the top of the local Thieves’ Guild, they’re the undisputed master of at least one part of the city’s criminal underworld.

Limitations:

The character must be a member of an intelligent race that might reasonably be found in a large Metropolis. They must be involved in some activity that is actually illegal.
The character cannot be Good. “Criminal” Good organizations within an Evil society, or well-intentioned scions trying to get the organization to go legit, are not what we’re going for here.
The character cannot be Chaotic. Even if this villain regularly breaks the city’s law, they are the head of a criminal organization. They must pay at least passing interest in their position within the crime world – even if it’s only to make sure they stay on top.



Concept Clarification: Your Villain can be the head of any sort of criminal empire; it does not have to be the mafia. Leadership is still banned, but you can assume that the criminal organization follows the Crime Lord more-or-less faithfully, whether through fear, family ties, or any other reason. You can also assume that the character has enough money to obtain any magical item or spellcasting necessary to conceal their personal criminal activities. The town guard is either unaware of the Crime Lord, sufficiently bought off that they don't bother them, or otherwise unable to get enough evidence to charge them with a crime. If your villain maintains a façade of being a “Respectable Business(wo)man,” you do not need to invest class features into hiding your criminal background - though you’re certainly free to do that if it fits your concept.

We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.



Use Elite Array instead of Normal Array, no Penalty on using Elite Array on a creature without any class levels.

So, that’s a nice build you got there. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it. Be sure to make it look nice for the judges. Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:


- Use capitalization and punctuation, correctly.
- Make good use of Spoilers, for cleanliness.
- Don't forget your sources. If it's something that can be found in the contents section, then book title seems to be fine. Obscure stuff, may want to include page number too.
- DeviantArt has about 9 billion pictures that you can reference, I can almost guarantee you can find one there to fit your character.
- Make good use of tables. In addition to the Build table and the Spells table, I like doing on e for my Ability Scores, just to keep it neat.
- Do a build stub at the top of your Build Table, something like Wizard 2/Fighter 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10

So, start your evil plotting!

To standardize Entries, please use this format when emailing it in:

PM: Telonius
Subject: Villainous Competition 5, Name of your Entry

For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.

More questions? You’re a nosy fella, kitty cat … but send them anyway, with Villainous Competition 5 Questions in the header.


EDIT: Submission deadline is extended!

[atemu1234]

I'm willing to judge by the new rules. If no one has any objections, of course.

[sakuuya]

I'm willing to judge by the new rules. If no one has any objections, of course.

Go for it! It's great to have someone who judges all the time. I should judge too, but, augh, I want to build for this theme. :smallsigh: We'll see.

[atemu1234]

Go for it! It's great to have someone who judges all the time. I should judge too, but, augh, I want to build for this theme. :smallsigh: We'll see.

Have fun. I had an idea, but can't format a table to save my life.

[sakuuya]

Have fun. I had an idea, but can't format a table to save my life.

Have you tried the WYSIWYG view? I find it annoying for normal text, but it significantly cuts back the amount of table messes I get myself into.

EDIT: Not that I should be trying to convince you not to judge. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Have you tried the WYSIWYG view? I find it annoying for normal text, but it significantly cuts back the amount of table messes I get myself into.

EDIT: Not that I should be trying to convince you not to judge. :smalltongue:

I'm committed to judging. Maybe I'll submit a stub when this is all over, k?

[AvatarVecna]

So...many...ideas...

[khadgar567]

can unwilling nun trafficking count as evil for competition? if yes then I have a wicked idea.

[Telonius]

can unwilling nun trafficking count as evil for competition? if yes then I have a wicked idea.

Sure! I'm pretty sure unwilling nun trafficking is specifically illegal in most kingdoms, too, so you're okay to go on that.

[WeaselGuy]

This one definitely looks interesting. I'll have to scour some sourcebooks to get a good idea, but count me in!

[Sian]

think i have an idea, but i'll first cook my IC entry so i'll might not get around doing it

[Amphetryon]

Cannot be Chaotic, because The Joker was too disorganized to become the head of a major crime faction.

Regardless, I have an idea that I may get around to, Iron Chef and Demon Real Life permitting.

[Telonius]

I'd actually thought pretty hard about the Joker issue before writing the restriction. The Joker is an awesome character, but he fills a different sort of concept. This would be for a place where a DM needs something that's less Rogues' Gallery, more Carmine Falcone.

[Gwachitallemall]

Huh. That's definitely interesting. Telonius, send me a PM if you want my drafted ideas for the rest of the year, if not, no biggie.

[Dread_Head]

I have a potential idea to enter if I can finish it in time.

[Jormengand]

Can we have a clarification on what the categories actually mean? Because last time, I went deliberately for a high originality and got the lowest possible. Are they all just looking at the class levels and seeing how original, competent, and so forth they are? Because that would imply just doing the most left-field class combination possible while trying to stick as close to the script as you can, which isn't something I really want to try to do.

[sakuuya]

Can we have a clarification on what the categories actually mean? Because last time, I went deliberately for a high originality and got the lowest possible. Are they all just looking at the class levels and seeing how original, competent, and so forth they are? Because that would imply just doing the most left-field class combination possible while trying to stick as close to the script as you can, which isn't something I really want to try to do.

For me personally, Originality comes down to two things:

1. How dissimilar is the build from the other submitted builds? and
2. Does the build avoid the stock optimization tricks for builds of its type?

To give an example of the second one, DMM:Persist Clerics usually get an Originality ding from me, unless one is doing something particularly novel with it. Which is to say that my originality score is about mechanics in this competition, but it's not specifically about class levels. Fluff will be part of (most of?) Memorable Villainy. Heck, I'll try to put up a full set of criteria tonight or tomorrow. It'll be looser than what I use for other competitions, but I hope it'll help you and your fellow competitiors understand how I plan to judge your builds.

[Telonius]

I think Originality comes down to two things: use of non-obvious materials, and similarity to other builds submitted.

For the last competition, it was particularly hard to get an original build out of it. The concept was pretty narrow; there really aren't all that many ways of controlling undead. If you're building a Necromancer, Cleric20 or Dread Necromancer20 is not going to be a terrifically original build, even if it gets the job done. So I'm hoping that by asking for a broader concept this time it'll be a bit easier to come up with something people might not be expecting, while not having to do a weird pretzel of a build. There are many ways of being a Crime Lord.

[sakuuya]

As promised, here's a full list of the critera I'll use for judging this round, spoilered in case you want to be surprised for some crazy reason.

Originality:

How mechanically dissimilar is the villain from the other villains in the competition?
Does the villain avoid the stock optimization tricks for builds of their type?

Elegance:

Does the villain qualify for everything they takes and avoid reliance on questionable rules interpretations?
Does the villain’s build feel cohesive, and does its progression make sense?
(A villain that violates the contest rules by using an alternate rules system such as gestalt will receive a 0 in Elegance regardless of other considerations)

Power & Competence:

How mechanically powerful is the villain, in general as well as compared to other members of its class?
Is the villain’s fluff well-supported by its crunch?

Style:

To what extent does the villain embody the contest’s theme?
Is the villain particularly interesting/memorable?
(A villain that violates the contest rules by ignoring this round’s limitations will receive a 1 in Style regardless of other considerations.)
Also note that, though I mentioned ignoring the round limitations as a bad thing (which is not a spoiler), I'll be pretty liberal about what qualifies as a race that "might reasonably be found in a large Metropolis." So if you have an idea that skirts that limitation, it'll probably be fine with me as long as you justify it.

[Sian]

exactly how liberal is that? ... would you accept a copy of Nexil'Vendyliq, Aboleth Crime Lord from Waterdeep (page 52&57 in City of Spendors) for being an acceptable race?

[sakuuya]

exactly how liberal is that? ... would you accept a copy of Nexil'Vendyliq, Aboleth Crime Lord from Waterdeep (page 52&57 in City of Spendors) for being an acceptable race?

If his fluff was good, sure. Basically, the less obvious it is that a given race fits that limitation, the better I want the explanation of how the villain achieved their status/manages to live in a city where they stick out so much. Honestly, the only way I see someone flat-out FtQ'ing from that limitation is if they did something like an aboleth but included literally nothing justifying it. A bad or lackluster explanation will probably get penalized but not FtQ.

I hope that helps. Basically, I don't want to discourage people from trying wacky ideas.

[Telonius]

Nine days to go! How are the builds coming along?

[AvatarVecna]

Nine days to go! How are the builds coming along?

I've been pretty distracted by pbp games I'm interested in, but my build is still chugging along. I have some issues with it, but it should make for an interesting read...assuming I finish it.

[atemu1234]

I've got my judging magic eight ball all ready!

[Telonius]

Four days to go in the competition, and my inbox is very quiet...

[Amphetryon]

Four days to go in the competition, and my inbox is very quiet...Per our earlier conversation, I'm waiting on a. . . clarification.

[Telonius]

The clock's ticking, and so far no submissions ... I know that Amphetyron is waiting for one particular item, but are the other competitors still in?

[khadgar567]

The clock's ticking, and so far no submissions ... I know that Amphetyron is waiting for one particular item, but are the other competitors still in?
are we submit character or organization and can homebrew prc usable?

[Jormengand]

are we submit character or organization and can homebrew prc usable?

You submit one character, you can only use official content, and either way you have to do it in the next half a day anyway.

[khadgar567]

You submit one character, you can only use official content, and either way you have to do it in the next half a day anyway.
then I need 5 lvl prc for the doña so I here by resin from the competition

[Telonius]

The official deadline has passed, and so far I've received one submission. I know that Amphetyron is waiting on mod approval for something, so the deadline will be extended at least until we get official word on that. Last minute entries are welcome!

[Amphetryon]

The official deadline has passed, and so far I've received one submission. I know that Amphetyron is waiting on mod approval for something, so the deadline will be extended at least until we get official word on that. Last minute entries are welcome!

Since my computer blue-screened with my entry still on a spreadsheet, I appreciate the extension.

[Telonius]

I'm officially extending the submission deadline to July 10. So, if you have an idea that still needs a bit of shaking out, you have a bit more time.

[Telonius]

We're closing in on the new deadline (July 10), and only one submission is in my inbox. Still plenty of time, but the new deadline will be final.

[Telonius]

The deadline approaches, and so far I only have one competitor. Still plenty of time to get yours in!

[Amphetryon]

One last hoop and I'll have mine in.

[atemu1234]

Ready when you folks are.

[AvatarVecna]

Ugh, my idea spiraled out of control for this, but I've put too much work into it to just quit now. I'm gonna round it off and submit it after I finish my ZS entry...

[Amphetryon]

After much wailing and gnashing of teeth on my part, it's away!

[Telonius]

As usual, time seems to be the worst villain of them all. Two submissions so far, keep 'em coming!

[AvatarVecna]

As usual, time seems to be the worst villain of them all.

You really shouldn't tell us what the next competition ingredient is before it starts; it gives us more time to make builds. :smallwink:

[sakuuya]

You really shouldn't tell us what the next competition ingredient is before it starts; it gives us more time to make builds. :smallwink:

For the next round, make a villain that represents real life getting in the way of build competitions.

[illyahr]

I'm interested on seeing how this goes. Crime Boss is general enough that almost anything could make it in with some justification.

[Telonius]

Last call for competitors! The deadline is in a few hours, and so far I have two builds.

[Telonius]

And, that's time! We have two competitors; I'll be posting shortly.

[Telonius]

First up, a Paladin of Tyranny determined to turn the whole city into a nest of Evil. Who's badder than him? No one, that's who. Arbiter Noone!

Arbiter Noone
http://pre04.deviantart.net/bfa7/th/pre/f/2014/146/f/6/artoriaaas_and_sif4_by_arthurroberto-d7jwiy8.jpg
"There is the law, and then there is our law."


Arbiter Noone dislikes good creatures and would like to run a city without them. Good creatures would in Noone's ideal world be forced to submit to mind control - and so that is what it does, seeking out these creatures and forcing them into new alignments, or conning them to change. It is trying to build up a coup under the guise of the Church of the Chosen One. While a church to a Lawful Evil god may seem suspect, there are churches to almost any god you can imagine here.

Paladin of Tyranny 20. That was easy. You miss out on your neat illumian ability to multilclass out, true, but there's nothing you really want to go into - your Battle Blessing doesn't actually work on blackguard spells, so that's kinda a bust.

This villain is an Illumian (RoD) with the Aesh and Krau sigils. This means that wisdom no longer ever needs to be greater than 14 (to cast 14th-level spells) because we don't care about the save DCs on our spells and we use our strength for determining our extra spells. So:

STR 15 (+5) DEX 12 CON 11 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 13


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills

Feats
Class Features


1st
Paladin of Tyranny 1 (UA)
+1
+2
+0
+0
Concentration 4 Ride 5

Mounted Combat

Aura of evil, detect good, smite good 1/day


2nd
Paladin of Tyranny 2
+2
+3
+0
+0
Concentration 5 Ride 6

-

Divine grace, deadly touch


3rd
Paladin of Tyranny 3
+3
+3
+1
+1
Concentration 6 Ride 7

Ride-by attack

Debilitating aura, divine health


4th
Paladin of Tyranny 4
+4
+4
+1
+1
Concentration 7 Ride 8

-

Rebuke undead


5th
Paladin of Tyranny 5
+5
+4
+1
+1
Concentration 8 Ride 9

-

Smite good 2/day, Special mount


6th
Paladin of Tyranny 6
+6
+5
+2
+2
Concentration 9 Ride 10

Battle Blessing (CC)
Cause disease 1/week


7th
Paladin of Tyranny 7
+7
+5
+2
+2
Concentration 10 Ride 11

-

-



8th
Paladin of Tyranny 8
+8
+6
+2
+2
Concentration 11 Ride 12

-

-



9th
Paladin of Tyranny 9
+9
+6
+3
+3
Concentration 12 Ride 13

Spirited Charge

Cause disease 2/week


10th
Paladin of Tyranny 10
+10
+7
+3
+3
Concentration 13 Ride 14

-

Smite good 3/day


11th
Paladin of Tyranny 11
+11
+7
+3
+3

Concentration 14 Ride 15

-

-



12th
Paladin of Tyranny 12
+12
+8
+4
+4
Concentration 15 Ride 16

Practiced Spellcaster (CA/CD)

Cause disease 3/week


13th
Paladin of Tyranny 13
+13
+8
+4
+4
Concentration 16 Ride 17

-

-



14th
Paladin of Tyranny 14
+14
+9
+4
+4
Concentration 17 Ride 18

-

-



15th
Paladin of Tyranny 15
+15
+9
+5
+5
Concentration 18 Ride 19

Power Attack

Cause disease 4/week, smite good 4/day


16th
Paladin of Tyranny 16
+16
+10
+5
+5
Concentration 19 Ride 20

-

-



17th
Paladin of Tyranny 17
+17
+10
+5
+5
Concentration 20 Ride 21

-

-



18th
Paladin of Tyranny 18
+18
+11
+6
+6
Concentration 21 Ride 22

Cleave

Cause disease 5/week


19th
Paladin of Tyranny 19
+19
+11
+6
+6
Concentration 22 Ride 23

-

-



20th
Paladin of Tyranny 20
+20
+12
+6
+6
Concentration 23 Ride 24

-

Smite good 5/day


Aaaaand a wolf. Fortunately the 2 bonus HD instantly advance it to large size, so it can actually carry Noone. If you're having trouble convincing yourself that works, he can have a dire wolf instead, but that would be really powerful. Not that Hinjo cared.


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


5th-7th
Animal 4
+3
+6
+5
+4
Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +5, Spot +3, Survival +1
Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Iron Will
Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws


8th-10th
Animal 6
+4
+7
+6
+5
Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +7, Spot +3, Survival +1
Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Iron Will, Improved Natural Attack (bite)
Improved speed


11th-14th
Animal 8
+6
+8
+7
+5
Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +9, Spot +3, Survival +1
Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Iron Will, Improved Natural Attack (bite)
Command creatures of its kind


15th-20th
Animal 10
+7
+9
+8
+6
Hide +2, Listen +3, Move Silently +11, Spot +3, Survival +1
Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Iron Will, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Natural Attack (Claw)
Spell resistance
At first level, Noone is a member of the Church of the Chosen One, which is dedicated to hunting out and murdering good-aligned individuals. However, the Church of the Chosen One doesn't at this point seem more than a slightly bleak, worn-down temple. On arrival in the city, Noone sets out to rebuild the CotCO, and asks the PCs for their aid. If they agree to help or refuse it politely (either by saying that they are on an important mission, say, or that they don't have the skills to help - though it will make a second attempt to convince them either way) then Noone will accept their response happily (Path A). If they are rude to it or ignore it entirely, then it will instead curse them (Path B) and go to rebuild the Church either way.

If attacked, Noone will shout for aid and leave the combat (Path B). Noone isn't that powerful in combat yet, though it will happily use its Deadly Touch to knock someone dead, or Smite them with a longsword.Noone will invite the PCs to the Church, and tell them all about its god. Its wolf bounces around happily - she seems to like the PCs - and Noone will pet her gently. If the players are interested in following this religion, they become members of the church (Path C). Otherwise, Noone bids them farewell understandingly. (Path D)

If Noone is attacked, it will respond with deadly force, as will its wolf and the other members of the church. By casting defensively, it can Inflict Wounds as a swift action using its battle blessing, or it can Divine Favour itself. If given a chance to mount its wolf, it will charge using its lance, otherwise it will fight with its longsword. (Path F)Noone attacks the PCs in the dead of night, and so will some of its helpers. It sends someone to burn the building they are in, and charges them down with its lance when they retreat, riding on its wolf and using Battle Blessing to buff itself. It will retreat if necessary, though its wolf is happy to stay fighting to defend her owner.

Because the PCs haven't seen Noone with a wolf or a lance before, and they can't see their aggressor's face, they might not know it's Noone (Path E), though they might blow Noone's cover (Path F).At this point, Noone detects whether any of the PCs are good. If they are, Noone gives them Helms of Opposite Alignment along with their church regalia (If they insist that their protective gear is needed, Noone insists that they at least wear the helms, and notes that they can wear their cloaks over the rest of their armour anyway). If needed, Noone will leave someone else to lie about the Helms' functions. If Noone's plan is successful, it will initiate the PCs immediately (Path G), but even if at least one good creature refuses a helm or passes their save, Noone will continue the ceremony anyway (Also Path G).

If the PCs refuse to undergo the ceremony then Noone will let them go (Path D) or attack them depending on how aggressive they were. Noone will also attack them if it is attacked; either way will rapidly launch swift-action Bestow Curse spells at its foes while charging them down. The PCs are also attacked by many of the Church's members and will likely have to flee (Path K)At this point, the PCs don't hear from Noone again (Path I) until they deliberately seek it out. If they do, it will ask them what they wish of it - if they ask to join the church, or if they attack it, resolve as for Path C.Noone refuses to let the PCs enter the Church of the Chosen One. They are repelled if they enter (Path K) otherwise they are simply asked to leave (Path J). Noone doesn't use its wolf or lance unless it thinks its opponents have identified it as their previous aggressor.Noone attempts to kill the PCs at all costs, sending someone to kill them for it if it can't kill them itself. If it can't find them, it gives up (Path J), and if it is repelled or its agents are slain, it grows gradually more angry with the PCs, and vows to slay them all (Path K)Noone attempts to convince the PCs to aid it in staging a coup of the city; it uses one of its minions who can cast sending, or a scroll if desperate. If they help it, they end up taking over the city and ruling by its side, or else being crushed by the defenders of the city. Otherwise, Noone's response will either be that it tries to take the city anyway (They say nothing or say that they will support him from the sidelines, or say that they will help but don't) (Path I), it takes the city and attacks them (Path J), or it tries to kill them at all costs before taking the city (Path K).Noone tries to take the city. The PCs can try to help it (Path H, though no sending is used; the PCs simply join the fight), hinder it (Path J), or simply sit out, in which they are inevitably forced into the same location as Noone and forced at lance-point to choose a side (Leading to path H or J again). If they somehow evade Noone, the city is taken by the Church. They may choose to attempt to topple it, or to join it.Noone attacks the PCs at the same time as its allies attempt to take the city. It charges in with an Unholy Sword (lance), Bull's Strength and Divine Favour, and uses its other spells in battle as swift actions. Its wolf is also the recipient of magic which aids its own abilities. If the PCs defeat Noone and defend the city, it is saved and its people are grateful. Even if they don't save the city, slaying Noone will create a power void that they might be able to fill.Noone focuses all of its wrath and might, and that of the Church of the Chosen One, on slaying the PCs. It fights just as in path J, though it and its wolf are loaded with spells from the clerics of the Church. The PCs will at least be in familiar surroundings, and they can give the city time to react. If they defeat Noone here, the Church of the Chosen One will be destroyed and the city saved.There are a few things that bear mentioning. First, the wolf. Paladins are not specified to be able to ride wolves, but it seems likely that they should be allowed to - it notes that "Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well." Given that a large shark is far bigger, tougher and meaner than a wolf, and even a heavy warhorse has a higher CR than the wolf, the wolf seems like a reasonable mount.

Then, there's the HD increase. The paladin is fuzzy on how this works, but notes that they are "Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal." Given the second comma, one can only assume that the "As normal" refers to the hit dice and not the gaining of the constitution modifier, which would imply that the wolf increased in size. If it doesn't, back to the warhorse.

[Telonius]

And, our second competitor: She's a Drow Cleric who's seized control of the Red Light District, with enough dirt on the city elite to make them all dance to her tune. You know you want it: Tana'kacha Hlat'tar!


Tana’kacha Hlat’tar, NE Female Dark (ToM 158-161) Drow Cleric (Domination & Lust Domains) 7/Insidious Corruptor 10 (DotU 83)
Starting stats: STR 10 DEX 11 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 17 CHA 12
Racially-adjusted starting stats: STR 10 DEX 13 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 17 CHA 14
WIS boosted at 4/8/12/16/20

“So you say you’re new in town, friend? Looking for a little excitement, a little distraction, a little. . . deviant diversion? I know just the place for those, such as yourself, who admire the drow form, and all the predilections the drow are known for. Go to Manroot Manor, off the third alleyway to your left in the District of Love. Bring at least ten platinum. Talk to Priscilla, the bartender there, and do try not to stare at her Adam’s Apple. Tell her you’d like to entertain Tana for the evening, and ask Priscilla for either a red or a white rose. If you ask for the red rose, and wear it in your buttonhole, you’re telling Tana you’re in charge for the evening. She’ll let you play, secure in the knowledge that you are unlikely to be able to actually hurt her, and that there are several bodyguards within earshot should that prove untrue. Wear the white rose, and you’re surrendering to Tana’s whims for the evening - and, boy, let me tell you, her whims could make Malcanthet herself (rumored to be her patron, but never you mind that) blush, and have been known to make longshoremen cry for their mamas. Try to see her without a rose, and those bodyguards will make the rest of your days very interesting indeed. . . .”





Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Bluff 4, Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Sense Motive 2.0
Apprentice: Criminal (DMG2 176-7); (Bonus) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Rebuke undead x5, cleric level to CHA 1 round/day, spells, spontaneous inflict spells, bonus feat


2nd
Cleric 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Bluff 5, Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Sense Motive 2.5
-
-


3rd
Cleric 3
+2
+3
+1
+3
Bluff 6, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 6, Sense Motive 3.0
Persuasive
-


4th
Cleric 4l
+3
+4
+1
+4
Bluff 7, Concentration 7, Knowledge (Local) 1.0
-
-


5th
Cleric 5
+3
+4
+1
+4
Bluff 8, Concentration 8, Sense Motive 4.0
-
-


6th
Cleric 6
+4
+5
+2
+5
Bluff 9, Concentration 9, Knowledge (Local) 2.0
Unsettling Enchantment (CM 48)
-


7th
Cleric 7
+5
+5
+2
+5
Bluff 10, Concentration 10, Sense Motive 5.0
-
-


8th
Drow LA
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
SLAs, SR


9th
Drow LA
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
Light Sensitivity, Poison Use


10th
Dark Template
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
Improved Darkvision,+10’ movement, Hide in Plain Sight


11th
Insidious Corruptor 1
+5
+5
+2
+7
Bluff 11, Concentration 11, Knowledge (Local) 4, Sense Motive 7
-
Claws of Influence (1 target), Manipulate Senses


12th
Insidious Corruptor 2
+6
+5
+2
+8
Bluff 12, Concentration 12, Knowledge (Local) 6, Sense Motive 9
Coercive Spell (DotU 47)
Probe Thoughts, +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class


13th
Insidious Corruptor 3
+6
+6
+3
+8
Bluff 13, Concentration 13, Knowledge (Local) 8, Sense Motive 11
-
Manipulation, Claws of Influence (2 targets)


14th
Insidious Corruptor 4
+7
+6
+3
+9
Bluff 14, Concentration 14, Knowledge (Local) 10, Sense Motive 13
-
Minion, +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class


15th
Insidious Corruptor 5
+7
+6
+3
+9
Bluff 15, Concentration 15, Knowledge (Local) 12, Sense Motive 15
Umbral Spell (DotU 52-3)
Swift Enchantment


16th
Insidious Corruptor 6
+8
+7
+4
+10
Bluff 16, Concentration 16, Knowledge (Local) 15, Sense Motive 16
-
Irresistible Charm, Claws of Influence (3 targets), + 1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class


17th
Insidious Corruptor 7
+8
+7
+4
+10
Bluff 18, Concentration 18, Knowledge (Local), 16, Sense Motive 17
-
Greater Manipulation


18th
Insidious Corruptor 8
+9
+7
+4
+11
Bluff 20, Concentration 20, Knowledge (Local) 17, Sense Motive 18
Touch of Distraction (CM 48)
Greater Minion, +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class


19th
Insidious Corruptor 9
+9
+8
+5
+11
Bluff 22, Concentration 22, Knowledge (Local) 18, Sense Motive 19
-
Irresistible Compulsion, Claws of Influence (4 targets)


20th
Insidious Corruptor 10
+10
+8
+5
+12
Bluff 23, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 8, Knowledge (Local) 19, Sense Motive 20
-
Master Manipulator, +1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class





Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
3
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
4
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
4
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
5
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
5
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
5
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
6
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
6
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-
-


12th
6
6+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-


13th
6
6+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-
-


14th
6
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-


15th
6
6+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
2+1
-
-
-
-


16th
6
6+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-


17th
6
6+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
3+1
-
-
-
-


18th
6
7+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
1+1
-
-
-


19th
6
7+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
3+1
1+1
-
-
-


20th
6
7+1
5+1
5+1
4+1
4+1
2+1
-
-
-



Tana’kacha Hlat’tar was sold out of the Underdark, and into a life of prostitution, by her own parents. They were interested in warding off a soothsayer’s prediction that their young Tana would bring a city to its knees, and in making a fast profit in the bargain. Forced into such a world, she turned to prayer for entirely selfish reasons. She didn’t exactly venerate Malcanthet, or believe that the Queen of the Succubi was the one who powered Tana’s spells, but she found it useful to spread that particular gossip. Artfully combining her own vices and her race’s own reputation for cruelty and deviance, Tana attracted specialized clientele, themselves interested in Domination and Lust in one form or another. Her spells, her innate drow abilities, and the bouncers at Manroot Manor kept her safe. At first, her spells were geared toward healing any cuts, scrapes, or bruises she might acquire, or dish out, and toward the Lust domain. Her light sensitivity and low social station meant she rarely ventured out of Manroot Manor, but she rarely had need, and her clients came mostly by night. If pressed, her fighting skills were geared more toward ranged combat than melee, given somewhat above average DEX, average STR, and less-than-stellar CON. Her abilities with a Hand Crossbow served well enough, here.

Tana continued the only life above the surface that she’d ever known. As her reputation grew, her fees increased. As her fees increased, her access to the city improved. As her access to the city improved, her desire to someday rule the city - the same city which considered her a commodity - swelled. She could cast powerful magic, now. In theory, she was powerful enough to leave the harlot’s life. Instead, she used her powers of enchantment, her natural wiles, and the growing influence she had with her repeat clientele to increase her power base within Manroot Manor itself, rising to be their most prized, valuable, and powerful employee. With most of her abilities as a Cleric geared toward enchantment, her spell selection began to more strongly lean toward that niche. She began to find that even those, like herself, with some innate abilities to resist magical influence on their minds were agreeable to lowering those defenses while in her company, in order to really remind themselves that she was in charge for the evening; Persuasive was a useful tool toward this end

Without a real church for its hierarchy or the real freedom to walk about the city undisturbed, Tana continued on as a cleric, working in Manroot Manor as she saw the need for money and information. At this point, both were plentifully supplied to her by her clients, giving her a taste of what the rest of the city might be like, how it ran, and just where the wrong person might apply pressure to send the machinery of the government flying apart. Tana found this a reasonable goal, and started casting about to find ways to make it more achievable. With the Domination Domain’s 4th level spell available to her, she found the method that appealed to her: Insidious Corruptor. Unsettling Enchantment worked in conjunction with her primary spell focus to enable her bodyguards to more easily dispatch troublemakers.

Five levels of Insidious Corruptor really propelled Tana toward her goals. She had her minion in place within the city government, allowing her to practically rule from the shadows in which she’s comfortable, as the minion and her other claws of influence manipulated policy. Claws of Influence benefitted from the Lust Domain’s granted ability, making her influence harder to resist by a fair margin. Coercive Spell gave Tana another form of the control and domination over others that she so clearly craved, while Umbral Spell improved her advantage in other ways, thanks to her innate darkness-oriented abilities and weaknesses to light. With Probe Thoughts, she could learn as much as she needed about the goings-on of the city, from the comfort of Manroot Manor, which she now owned. Manipulation allowed her to control the scene in and around her stronghold, the long-term effects of which sent ripples throughout the city. As ever, her spells tended toward those that manipulated others, augmented by her metamagic, an Inflict or two, and the occasional Summon spell, when the otherwise compliant weren’t around. If the direct influence of her class abilities was insufficient, the looming threat of exposure and blackmail - or of being cut off from her services - often was. Swift Enchantment allowed her to better use her actions within a crisis situation or a fight.

At last, all Tana’s scheming and work has paid off. She has the influence to run the city - indeed, the entire coast - with a network of minions, spies, informants, and sympathizers, none of whom will willingly divulge their allegiance with a house of ill-repute. Her Irresistible Charm and Irresistible Compulsion abilities pair quite well with the Lust Domain’s granted ability, allowing her to really spike the saving throw on the effects. Touch of Distraction improves her control over others in two ways at once, by reducing their defenses and improving her efficacy with her favorite spells. She may not be a particularly capable combatant on her own, but she has no need to be, as others are always available and willing to fight and die for her. Master Manipulator, in conjunction with her skill set, her profession’s situational advantage and - once again - the Lust Domain, makes her Claws of Influence almost irresistible.

Tana would dearly love to pay off that LA, and with it, get levels in Contemplative for the Darkness Domain. Barring that, she’d be improved by the Flaws Noncombatant and Vulnerable, for access to Greater Spell Focus and Reactive Resistance.

SRD
Dungeon Master’s Guide 2
Complete Mage
Drow of the Underdark
Tome of Magic

[Telonius]

And that's it for our competitors this time. Judges, to your battle stations!

[AvatarVecna]

May as well share what my build would've been: I was basically going to create an all-powerful Drow Vermin Lord/Ur-Priest who keeps the drow of the Underdark in line by using her infinite Vermin Lord casting/skills/feats to pretend to be Lolth. The church hates her, but can't personally oppose her, and while she hates Lolth for driving her followers to betray one another for power, Lolth loves her because she's the drow ideal.

This Ur-Priest/Vermin Lord would go against the church and the houses, running the Underdark from the shadows; not only did she steal Lolth's divine power, she stole Lolth's reputation. It would've been awesome, if I'd finished it.

[Red Fel]

Mind if I try my hand at judging again?

[AvatarVecna]

Mind if I try my hand at judging again?

Agreed. I wanna judge too!

[Telonius]

Glad to have both of you!

[Red Fel]

*puts on Marlon Brando mask*

So, what is this? You come into this, my forum, and place such insolence before me? I am grievously wounded. You broke my heart. You broke my heart.

*removes Marlon Brando mask*

Enough theatrics, let's get this thing going. But first, an explanation of how I do business in this part of town.

I remind you, these were the criteria listed in the original post. Next to each, I've shared how I grade them. Each is scored on a scale of 1-5, for a total of 20 possible points overall. Originality: How novel is the idea? I've seen a lot of villains come and go; you'd better show me something good. Build Elegance: How few classes? How few templates? How do they all mesh together? Competence and Power: Simple enough. How bad is this dude (or dudette)? This isn't just combat ability, for me - it's also effective skill use. Memorable Villainy: This is my fluff metric. How fascinating is this BBEG? How clearly explained is it? How can I fit it into a campaign? Will the encounter(s) become forum-worthy stories?
Got that, punk? Okay. Then it's time to lay some scores on you.

Preliminary thoughts: Honestly, my first thought was "This is like an Evil Judge Dredd, isn't it?" I mean, "Arbiter Noone?" You see where I'm coming from, right?

Okay, okay, so scores.

Originality: 5. I have to say, I'm really impressed. This is a character who, over the course of the story, is really building his empire from the ground up. You do an excellent job of illustrating the fact that, when the PCs first arrive, the CotCO (I keep thinking it says CostCo, which is oddly fitting) is a busted-down church of a minor religion. He ropes the PCs into being part of his coup. Heck, he's even friendly towards them. It's a really nice touch. Elegance: 4. It's extremely elegant, being a single race, no templates, and a single class taken to 20. I dinged you one point, however, based on your DM-dependent wolf mount. While I applaud your willingness to take chances, if you were worried it wouldn't work, you should either have gone with the warhorse (which you suggest as a backup) or taken a feat or something to get a more fearsome mount. Competence and Power: 3. In terms of power, he's got Battle Blessing, various charge-based maneuvers, and a lance. He can cause some damage, that's for sure. He's not the most powerful force, and the combined PC party should be able to take him down with moderate challenge, but he's respectable. In terms of competence, I notice that the only skills you've invested in are Concentrate and Ride. Fine combat skills, but he's supposed to be able to persuade the PCs. He needs to tell them about his wonderful organization, persuade them to join, persuade them to put on the fun hat. And he has no listed social skills. Now, I know you can't diplomance the PCs, and I know Noone probably won't outright lie, but he should be balancing his Bluff against their Sense Motive, at the very least. What I see is a very capable knight, a strong, upstanding figure, but not the social butterfly the role needs. He's good, but not amazing. Memorable Villainy: 5. He has a puppy. He has a puppy. He gets a pet the dog moment and everything. You'd be amazed how the little details can make a villain unforgettable. (Or maybe you wouldn't.) More importantly, all the pieces you've put together on this guy create a complex, layered series of encounters. Is he friend? Is he enemy? Will he be sad if they reject his offer? Will they feel guilty if they make him sad? Lots of players have had their PCs encounter evil cultists and priests, but this one seems genuinely almost-nice, and that means a lot. Total: 17/20
Closing thoughts: I really, really love how you laid out the whole choose-your-own-adventure encounter map. It makes using this guy in a campaign absurdly easy. The character really shows in how he's written - you can see him being used in an almost sympathetic capacity, being welcoming and genial, turning cold and harsh, perhaps expressing a feeling of personal betrayal towards the PCs. It's worth noting that, unlike other members of CostCo, he is willing to recruit/convert the non-Evil PCs, as opposed to killing them outright. That's almost charitable of him.

Well done.
Preliminary thoughts: That name. Oy. I almost want to call her Tananananananana Batman. I feel like I have to make a coughing sound to pronounce it right. I strongly dislike using difficult-to-pronounce names unless dealing with things which should not be named, like Far Realm denizens and stuff. Also, no picture, tsk tsk. I won't dock you anything, of course; I'm sure any picture resembling Tanamana doo-doo duh-doo-doo would violate forum rules.

Scores!

Originality: 4. I want to give you a better score, but let's face it, "uses sex to gain information and influence" is one of the oldest games in the book. I will give you credit, however, for using it in a tabletop setting. The fact is, the PCs are unlikely to ever make the deductive leap unless enough NPCs repeat the words "Manroot Manor" over and over again. (Heh. Manroot Manor.) Elegance: 4. One base class, one PrC, I give you full marks for those. But throwing on the Drow savage progression and the Dark template, I have to dock you one for complicating things. As an aside, I'm confused by your description of class features and feats for your template levels. Competence and Power: 3. In terms of competence, she's pretty solid. I note that her key class abilities don't work at long range; most of her power would come from seducing people, then using her powers to get them to fess up to major blackmail-worthy secrets. Manageable, and not uncommon for stories like hers, but not great for exercising long-term long-range control, let alone for having "minions." In terms of actual power, she's really only good at one-on-one encounters; against a party, she'd fold like a card table. Memorable Villainy: 3. She has the potential to be memorable. Potential, mind you. If one of the PCs is dumb enough to snark off about going to the brothel, I could totally see a fade-to-black with that PC, followed by several minutes out of character discussing with the player the interrogation of his character that's going on. I could also see the PCs searching all over for some big imposing criminal kingpin, never expecting it to be the harlot from the bordello. But I could just as easily see them completely missing the plot thread, and that's the problem; Tanana Split has no reason to engage with the PCs. She's building an empire and control; if the PCs never move in powerful circles, they have no reason to even be aware that she's taking over. A missable villain is not as memorable as I would want. Total: 14/20
Closing thoughts: Not bad. She's smart. Inconspicuous. I like the fact that she doesn't even take over as matron of Manroot Manor, (heh, Manroot Manor) still posing as a courtesan there. It makes her almost invisible. But the problem with a blackmail network like hers is that she has absolutely no way to back it up. She has bodyguards, sure, but she's blackmailing a lot of rich and powerful people. It only takes one to hire a batch of assassins to kill her bodyguards and her; her powers of control generally don't extend far beyond the Manor.

But she's definitely something different, I'll give you that.
*puts on Marlon Brando mask*

Take the award. Leave the cannoli.

[atemu1234]

Should I still judge?

[Telonius]

Should I still judge?

Sure, if you'd like to. More scoring is better.

[Telonius]

Dispute from Tana’kacha Hlat’tar:


1. I didn't use the Drow savage progression, or, at least, I didn't do so intentionally. Drow are LA +2. . . for some reason. So, my chart had to account for 2 levels of otherwise useful progression eaten by a grue, er, being a Drow. Being a Drow gives a few benefits. All I did was list those benefits among the levels eaten by being Drow, because failure to do so pretty much ALWAYS gets a deduction in these contests.

2. As for the Dark template? I had 1 level left over after entering Insidious Corruptor ASAP. Delaying entry into a PrC and sticking too long with the base Classes one is using to get into them pretty much ALWAYS gets a deduction in these contests, as would tacking on another level of Cleric anywhere. Ditto a 1-level dip. So, the alternatives were to grab a reasonably thematic and useful template, or to assume that there were simply no options where a deduction wasn't forthcoming.

[Red Fel]

Dispute resolution time!


1. I didn't use the Drow savage progression, or, at least, I didn't do so intentionally. Drow are LA +2. . . for some reason. So, my chart had to account for 2 levels of otherwise useful progression eaten by a grue, er, being a Drow. Being a Drow gives a few benefits. All I did was list those benefits among the levels eaten by being Drow, because failure to do so pretty much ALWAYS gets a deduction in these contests.

That's fair. Problem is, if you didn't use any special progression for her, you really should have left those levels upfront, rather than snuck into the middle of your build; it's confusing, and makes it appear that you're using an alternate progression.


2. As for the Dark template? I had 1 level left over after entering Insidious Corruptor ASAP. Delaying entry into a PrC and sticking too long with the base Classes one is using to get into them pretty much ALWAYS gets a deduction in these contests, as would tacking on another level of Cleric anywhere. Ditto a 1-level dip. So, the alternatives were to grab a reasonably thematic and useful template, or to assume that there were simply no options where a deduction wasn't forthcoming.

Honestly, I wouldn't have given a deduction for taking an additional level of Cleric, but that's me. And I agree, the template was thematic and useful, but that's a different category; elegance measures simplicity.

Ultimately, it's a one-point ding because it's more than you need, and because the justification is weak. If the template had been crucial to the character, it might have been different, but you admit it's mostly there because it's thematic and fills the space. Heck, you could have tried for a Lesser Drow from Player's Guide to Faerun, which carries no LA. I get that Drow is a prereq of Insidious Corruptor, but you chose to take a class, a PrC, an LA, and a template, and by my metric that dings you one point.

Score stands.

[Telonius]

Dispute from Arbiter Noone:


Thanks for the critique - the only objection I would have is that one loses a point of elegance for a "DM-dependent" mount when, in the first instance, one is the DM, and second, you could just go buy a dire wolf if you're really desperate. Or instead of having a puppy, have a pony, and instead of having a pet-the-dog moment, have a pet-the-horse moment. I see the wolf as part of Noone's image, but that doesn't mean it's completely irrevocable, irreplaceable and set-in-stone.

Your commentary on its social skills is fair, though Dominate Person does appear on its spell list.

[Red Fel]

Dispute Resolution 2: Electric Boogaloo!


Thanks for the critique - the only objection I would have is that one loses a point of elegance for a "DM-dependent" mount when, in the first instance, one is the DM, and second, you could just go buy a dire wolf if you're really desperate. Or instead of having a puppy, have a pony, and instead of having a pet-the-dog moment, have a pet-the-horse moment. I see the wolf as part of Noone's image, but that doesn't mean it's completely irrevocable, irreplaceable and set-in-stone.

Here's the thing. Yeah, he's an NPC, not a PC, so as DM, you can do stuff for him. The problem is one of the cardinal rules for DMing - never make something available to an NPC if you're not prepared for the players to ask for it. If a player rolls a Paladin, sees the wolf mount, and then decides he wants a wolf too, what can I say? Let's face it, wolves are substantially more awesome than most horses - the look, the violence, the overall aesthetic. And when it's time to camp for the night, you just tie off your warhorse to a tree, but a wolf totally becomes an improvised combination pillow and blanket, which is totally adorable. And yes, you can have a pet-the-pony moment, but there's something about dogs - even large, mildly feral murderdogs - that's just a little heartwarming.

My point is that the wolf is a departure from the standard by way of rules-stretching or fiat. I liked it, but it made the elegance and rules-compliance of the build just slightly less-than-perfect. Still extremely solid overall, just slightly less-than-perfect.


Your commentary on its social skills is fair, though Dominate Person does appear on its spell list.

That's a fair point about Dominate Person, but for two things. First, I don't imagine this guy drops spells into casual conversation, even when trying to recruit converts. That's what social skills are for. Second, Dominate Person is a single-target spell, and using it on a single person in a group of multiple people is a great way to turn a social encounter into a combat encounter. It's just bad planning.

But yes, I recognize the presence of the spell on the list, and the utility of said spell in pursuing Judge Arbiter Noone's aims.

Score stands.

[Telonius]

Four days left in the judging! Any others willing to step up?

[Telonius]

Last call for judging! If no other judges submit, Red Fel's scores will stand as final.

[Telonius]

And that's time! The final scores stand:

Arbiter Noone (presented by Jormengand) in first place with 17 points!
Tana'kacha Hlat'tar (presented by Amphetryon) in second place with 14 points!

Let's have a hand for Red Fel, our judge, and the two competitors!

[Telonius]

Before we start on the next competition, I'd like to check in on the general level of interest. Participation dropped off significantly for this round. Is there anything that scared people off this time, lack of interest generally, or just summer schedules?

[Red Fel]

Before we start on the next competition, I'd like to check in on the general level of interest. Participation dropped off significantly for this round. Is there anything that scared people off this time, lack of interest generally, or just summer schedules?

I think part of it is how esoteric these concepts are. It's one thing if you said "Okay, make a villain that uses Warlock levels," or "make a demonic-themed villain, and use a demonic-themed race specifically." Those are concrete concepts that automatically exclude certain things, and narrow the field.

These latest few threads have been clever, but also intimidatingly open-ended. I mean, build a crime boss? That can be anything. And it's hard to invest in a submission idea, knowing that if it doesn't meet the fluff of what a judge expects, your score is likely to suffer. It's also hard for a judge to know whether he or she is grading correctly, given how open-ended the concept is.

Look at the different Iron Chef and Zinc Saucier type competitions. They explicitly state the core of the build. "Use this class!" "Use this thing!" "Don't use that thing!" It tells the competitors what they should be building.

Contrast that with the concept in this thread. The only limitations were that (1) it must be a "crime boss," whatever that means; (2) it must be non-Good; (3) it must be non-Chaotic; and (4) it must be of a race easily found in a metropolis. The possibilities are so open-ended it's terrifying. Heck, you could make a Warforged Urban Druid within those requirements. That's a bit daunting.

If I said, "Write a paper about why Dragonborn Warforged are more optimal than Forestlord Elves," you could do it. It wouldn't be hard. It's a specific prompt. If, on the other hand, I said, "Write a paper about things generally related to Dragons," that's pretty much everything. I mean, you've got Dragonborn, Spellscales, Half-Dragons, Draconic Creatures, Dragonblood races, Dragonwrought Kobolds, True Dragons, bunch of other Dragons, races that worship Dragons... Then you've got all the Dragon-related classes, like Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Sorcerers with Draconic feats, Vassal of Bahamut, the far-superior Tiamat equivalent, Dragon Rider, Dragon Slayer... And that's before you even get into the more esoteric concepts. It's so open-ended as to be almost impossible to start.

I really think that future threads should be much more specific in their focus.

[Jormengand]

It's one thing if you said "Okay, make a villain that uses Warlock levels," or "make a demonic-themed villain, and use a demonic-themed race specifically."

The former I wouldn't have participated in, the latter I'd probably have ended up with a tiefling questioning her life choices in taking levels in fiendbinder. Open-ended means that you can do something without having to own a specific book to do it. There's a reason that I don't participate in IC, and the one ZC I participated in, what was the theme? Cleric. The very idea of "Religious dude that heals people" is open-ended.

[AvatarVecna]

So far, we've got "Leader of Armies", "Nature's Revenger", "Double Agent", "Necromancer", and "Crime Lord". The build I was putting together for this particular challenge (a Drow Ur-Priest/Vermin Lord using swarm-based hiveminds) could have been submitted to virtually any of these with little to no mechanical changes, just because of how powerful and versatile the build was...and how open-ended the challenges were. Iron Chef calls on us to use a Secret Ingredient (let's say guacamole); Zinc Saucier calls on us to not use a particular ingredient while making a dish that normally depends entirely on having that ingredient (let's say a salad with no lettuce); this competition said "make me a chocolate dessert". Its scope is limited in a sense, but not the same extent the other competitions are.

And without at least a little more focus than that, it becomes hard to judge what does and doesn't fit, because at that point it's more based on the judge's opinion of what that concept should be like than anything mechanical; sure, that's still kind of true for Iron Chef and Zinc Saucier, but if I'd submitted a Wizard 20 for the ZC Battle Dancer round and just said "I use infinite Wishes to simulate everything ever, so being a better Battle Dancer than the Battle Dancer is probably in there somewhere", I would have scored rock bottom on Originality and SI Emulation, and probably would've lost to the Nymph Monk/Sacred Fist.

As a possible suggestion for future competitions, maybe we should get away from BBEG character builds and go to BBEG Monster builds. Let's get a hoarding dragon who's kidnapped a princess, or a hulking behemoth that's virtually unkillable (like the tarrasque was supposed to be), or a sea-beast from the deepest pits of the ocean that's the boogeyman of sailors everywhere. Let us build Smaug (LotR), Doomsday (Superman), Behemoth (Worm), Leviathan (Worm), a Nundu (Harry Potter), Grendel (Beowulf), the Grim Reaper (I don't even know where from), and the ever-hungering swarm.

Let us build the monsters that legends are written about.

[Troacctid]

To me the most interesting parts of this competition are using CR instead of LA, which opens up new avenues of optimization that aren't available to PCs; and the perspective flip of creating a character from the DM seat instead of as a player, which has interesting implications. (For example, last round, I got to make a character who was the proprietor of a magic item shop and just say, "He has access to whatever magic item would be the most useful in a given scenario, regardless of its expense, because you're the DM and that's allowed for you.")

Also, I've enjoyed reading Red Fel's judging. :smallgrin:

[falloutimperial]

I don't have a lot to say. I'm just registering my interest in this competition.

If I could make a suggestion, I think that perhaps power should be calculated based on what type of character it is. A powerful initiator should score as well as a powerful full caster, even if one is much better.

As for the theme, it may be easier if the topic were a genre, such as "Lovecraftian." I think there's a sweet spot between a theme that directly suggests one or two classes and one that doesn't have an obvious direction to build towards. "Double Agent" is a good example of something that falls into this sweet spot.

[Troacctid]

I think "Optimization" or "Efficiency" would be a better category than "Power" for this competition.

[Telonius]

Okay, consensus is: tighten up the concept.

At the end of last competition, we went back and forth over the Power versus Efficiency thing as well. The "Competence and Power" score component (how powerful are you at what you're supposed to be good at doing / how powerful are you in general) in this competition was kind of a compromise solution. Do you think we should drop the "how powerful are you in general" part of it altogether?

[Amphetryon]

I don't have a lot to say. I'm just registering my interest in this competition.

If I could make a suggestion, I think that perhaps power should be calculated based on what type of character it is. A powerful initiator should score as well as a powerful full caster, even if one is much better.

As for the theme, it may be easier if the topic were a genre, such as "Lovecraftian." I think there's a sweet spot between a theme that directly suggests one or two classes and one that doesn't have an obvious direction to build towards. "Double Agent" is a good example of something that falls into this sweet spot.

Could you explain how any particular Class, or Monster, would be excluded from "Double Agent?" I ask because I don't see that particular example as having any direction whatsoever.

[Troacctid]

At the end of last competition, we went back and forth over the Power versus Efficiency thing as well. The "Competence and Power" score component (how powerful are you at what you're supposed to be good at doing / how powerful are you in general) in this competition was kind of a compromise solution. Do you think we should drop the "how powerful are you in general" part of it altogether?

Well that just doesn't make any sense. If you're powerful in general, then you're going to be powerful at what you're doing, and if you're doing something that's inherently not powerful, then it's impossible to be powerful at it. There's no way to divorce them from one another.

[Jormengand]

Could you explain how any particular Class, or Monster, would be excluded from "Double Agent?"

Paladin of Slaughter because it can't associate with you long enough to betray you; Paladin of Tyranny because it's too honourable to be a double agent; monk because it's probably too honourable to be a double agent. As for monsters, inevitables, devils, and so forth.

Also, being a - let's just look through core - barbarian, cleric, druid, definitely paladin but who's counting, or ranger would be slightly odd as a double agent. Certainly, with anything beyond bard or rogue, you'd have to build for it so you were vaguely convincing.


Well that just doesn't make any sense. If you're powerful in general, then you're going to be powerful at what you're doing, and if you're doing something that's inherently not powerful, then it's impossible to be powerful at it. There's no way to divorce them from one another.

It's possible to be a powerful commoner even though commoners aren't powerful, and doing so should be worth more than "Hurr durr I'm tier 1".

[Amphetryon]

Paladin of Slaughter's code, as written, is incompatible with working with ANY group, so whether it can be a double agent is rather tangential to the huge problems with that particular CoC. There's nothing in a Lawful Character's default code that prevents it from obeying orders to infiltrate another organization, or from recognizing which is the bigger menace and working with/against that particular force. "Lawful" does not mean "robotically incapable of changing one's mind given new data." I can think of no reason beyond DM fiat why a Barbarian can't pretend to fight for one side while working against that particular side's larger objectives, or a Ranger can't scout for one side while giving info to the other, or a Druid, or a Wizard, or a Cleric of many different faiths.

[Jormengand]

I can think of no reason beyond DM fiat why a Barbarian can't pretend to fight for one side while working against that particular side's larger objectives, or a Ranger can't scout for one side while giving info to the other, or a Druid, or a Wizard, or a Cleric of many different faiths.

Nor can I think of a particular reason why any of those classes can't do most things. A challenge should be possible with nearly anything: it just might be harder with some than with others. For example, rogue and bard lend themselves more easily than the other classes, and are an obvious starting point for someone who thinks that it's too open-ended. Those who don't think it's too open-ended are right here with our lawful criminals and prostitute clerics.

[Troacctid]

It's possible to be a powerful commoner even though commoners aren't powerful, and doing so should be worth more than "Hurr durr I'm tier 1".

Sure, with TO tricks based on flaws from an April Fool's issue of Dragon Magazine, but there's a lot of reasons why that shouldn't count.

[Jormengand]

Sure, with TO tricks based on flaws from an April Fool's issue of Dragon Magazine, but there's a lot of reasons why that shouldn't count.

Replace Commoner with, oh, I don't know, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder, Erudite (No Spell to Power), Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, or Truenamer. My point stands.

[Troacctid]

Look, maybe that's your opinion, but if my Druid got a 3 in Power because it was weak for a Druid while your Aristocrat got a 5 in power because it was strong for an Aristocrat, you bet your butt I would have a bone to pick with that judge, because that is clearly unfair. If every contestant is being rated on the same 5-point scale, they need to be judged by the same standards. If you're leaving a lot of power on the table and gaining zero in return, you deserve a low score in Power. You want to be an Aristocrat, fine, it'll probably get you a 5 in Originality, but you can't throw away all your class features for no reason and expect to be called powerful. That's silly.

[Jormengand]

Look, maybe that's your opinion, but if my Druid got a 3 in Power because it was weak for a Druid while your Aristocrat got a 5 in power because it was strong for an Aristocrat, you bet your butt I would have a bone to pick with that judge, because that is clearly unfair. If every contestant is being rated on the same 5-point scale, they need to be judged by the same standards. If you're leaving a lot of power on the table and gaining zero in return, you deserve a low score in Power. You want to be an Aristocrat, fine, it'll probably get you a 5 in Originality, but you can't throw away all your class features for no reason and expect to be called powerful. That's silly.

I don't want to play a contest where the art of war reads "Full casters or GTFO".

[AvatarVecna]

I don't want to play a contest where the art of war reads "Full casters or GTFO".

That's why there's multiple categories. I believe I've already mentioned that a Wizard 20 chain-gating efreeti to get infinite free wishes and do everything forever would obviously earn a 5 in power, no matter the competition, but would be a completely unoriginal way of accomplishing whatever my goal was, and it would be a very hackneyed way of emulating/using the SI. With multiple categories, power isn't the only thing being taken into account.

[Jormengand]

That's why there's multiple categories. I believe I've already mentioned that a Wizard 20 chain-gating efreeti to get infinite free wishes and do everything forever would obviously earn a 5 in power, no matter the competition, but would be a completely unoriginal way of accomplishing whatever my goal was, and it would be a very hackneyed way of emulating/using the SI. With multiple categories, power isn't the only thing being taken into account.

Yes, but a character earning a 1 in power because hey, maybe he wanted to play a fighter for a change, could not have beaten Arbiter Noone, ever. I regard that as a design flaw in the category system if the random crap I kick out could arbitrarily beat every T5 ever just because it's more powerful (not that Noone sails high above T5, which is why I'm glad Fel didn't take the "T1 or bust" route this round). The worst score I can find is Anaitis' 8, which a chain-gating wizard would emulate just by existing. The fact that someone who is actually trying couldn't break above that suggests a flaw in the system.

Too many times I've seen high powers (on Adamantine Telepath, Annabelle, Atalia, Triana, Brandeis) given on the basis of "You're a (Psion/Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid), have some points." That's bad, IMO.

[AvatarVecna]

Yes, but a character earning a 1 in power because hey, maybe he wanted to play a fighter for a change, could not have beaten Arbiter Noone, ever. I regard that as a design flaw in the category system if the random crap I kick out could arbitrarily beat every T5 ever just because it's more powerful (not that Noone sails high above T5, which is why I'm glad Fel didn't take the "T1 or bust" route this round). The worst score I can find is Anaitis' 8, which a chain-gating wizard would emulate just by existing. The fact that someone who is actually trying couldn't break above that suggests a flaw in the system.

Too many times I've seen high powers (on Adamantine Telepath, Annabelle, Atalia, Triana, Brandeis) given on the basis of "You're a (Psion/Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid), have some points." That's bad, IMO.

Fighters don't automatically earn a 1 in power any more than a spellcaster automatically earns a 5. In the previous round of Zinc Saucier, I submitted a build that got 8th lvl spells and 8th lvl maneuvers, near-full BAB, decently high HP, a focus on unarmed combat, and Vow of Poverty. I got a rank of 4 in power, mostly because Vow of Poverty isn't just inherently worse than magic items, but because it's laughably worse than magic items to an absurd degree. But I still did decently.

And it's not just because of VoP; in the Iron Chef: Dwarven Defender round, I put together a VoP Monk, which was competing power-wise with a bunch of similar characters and one sorcerer who rightfully blew away the competition by doing what none of us could (bring the enemy to them, so no running away from the DD). In that competition, my power scores from the judges were 3, 3, and 3.75; my VoP Bard/Swordsage/Sublime Chord/Jade Pheonix Mage had an average power of 4; my VoP Monk/Dwarven Defender had an average of 3.25; that seems pretty close, considering how many more spells and maneuvers have.

I guess my point is that power is relative, and since it's not the only thing that matters in any particular competition, a build's OP-ness is less "auto-winning" than I feel you're making it out to be.

EDIT: I will consider that I might be giving you less credit on this point than you deserve, though. Perhaps you have a specific example in mind of a time when a TO high tier build only won because it was TO and high tier, rather than through a combination of its other merits?

[Amphetryon]

EDIT: I will consider that I might be giving you less credit on this point than you deserve, though. Perhaps you have a specific example in mind of a time when a TO high tier build only won because it was TO and high tier, rather than through a combination of its other merits?
Remember the Iron Chef where Santa was an entry? That was, to my mind, the most powerful TO concept we've seen, or tied with it, at any rate. . . and Santa won Honorable Mention, not the round.

[Troacctid]

If we're talking about removing Power as a category altogether, that's certainly a conversation we can have. If we're talking about modifying the criteria for Power based on the character's class, that's a terrible, ridiculous idea that defeats the point of having the category in the first place, and it shouldn't even be on the table.

Also, I don't think TO has ever been a viable strategy. It's not like being better than a Druid will somehow get you better than a 5.

[Jormengand]

the point of having the category in the first place

Remind me, what is the point of having a category which measures the villain's ability to win, when nine times out of ten the villain's purpose is to lose?

Honestly, I think that a viable truenamer is better villain design than a really powerful mage.

[falloutimperial]

Originality is a measure of how original the contestant is.
Elegance is a measure of the contestant's ability to use a few things well.
Memorability is a measure of how memorable the contestant can make it.
Competence and power is a measure of two things: the ability of the contestant to optimize a build and the ability of a contestant to google "tiers."

I'm great at one of those things. All of you are great at one of those things. That part isn't a competition; it doesn't reflect well on the contestant, but it does affect their score. I don't think that we need to measure power by class per se, but we should keep in mind that the skill on display in making a great swordsman is equal to the skill on display in making a great wizard.

Isn't that a point even worth discussing? Maybe I'm wrong, but if you think it's

a terrible, ridiculous idea that defeats the point of having the category in the first place, and it shouldn't even be on the table.
then I think there's been some kind of miscommunication on my part.

[Jormengand]

we should keep in mind that the skill on display in making a great swordsman is equal to the skill on display in making a great wizard.

Yeah, this. When I'm making a truenamer/ranger, a Paladin or even a sorcerer, I want to be judged on my ability to create a truenamer/ranger, a Paladin or even a sorcerer, not a goddamn wizard.

Again, I don't want to hear:


I know how strong Warblades are...I know how strong Warblades are...Warblade power ...Warblades are potent
You took a Tier 3 class (Ranger), cut it off at the knees, and tacked on a Tier Nope class (Truenamer)...Wizard casting and Cleric casting....You’re no spellcaster...She’s a Cleric with access to 9th-level spells....Druid...Druid
warlocks, they're still going to be behind in power... Bardic Sages are pretty good, I would suppose, though he won't hold a candle to an optimized wizard... This is a Psion, after all....Properly Optimized Wizard.
It's a wizard, which I absolutely cannot fault you for... A sorcerer can have much the same power as a wizard

I don't want to hear about how powerful warblades are. I want to hear about how powerful this fighter is, or this barbarian is.

[Red Fel]

I don't want to hear about how powerful warblades are. I want to hear about how powerful this fighter is, or this barbarian is.

Okay, hold on. You're taking at least some of those quotes out of context.

That first quote refers to several scores in a single thread. And since you're calling me out by quoting me, I will respond by saying, first and foremost, that it was my first time judging anything of this kind. My scores were brief because I thought that was expected, and I think you'll find my scores to be more detailed now. But even with the lack of detail, I was taking a broad statement (such as "I know how strong Warblades are") and modifying it with a specific context (e.g. that in this case, combining it with a Bard made for an excellent combination).

The second quote refers again to a batch of scores. The first one in there I actually do go into detail on "this" build, not just the tiers in general. ("The DC to use Temporal Twist on yourself, for instance, is 15 + 2x HD -4. That means that, when you first get it, it’s a DC of 11 + 18, or 29. Your skill ranks are 12, +3 from Skill Focus – you still need to roll a 14 or better on a d20 to use it, and each time you succeed, the DC increases by 2. That said, you do pull off some good numbers with it, and your Utterances give you some nice battlefield control.") And in referring to casting, that's shorthand; it basically says, "This build is powerful, because it has and uses its casting potential." In most of those scores, I go on to discuss why that's powerful (e.g. minionmancy).

It also doesn't help that you say that the judges should score based upon the specific abilities of this build, when those abilities aren't always listed. Not everyone posts a spell or maneuver or invocation list. When they do, great, we can review those and consider their contribution to the build. But when they don't, what exactly do you expect the judges to do? The spell list is the definition of a spellcaster's power - the spells he has available determine how capable he is. You want us to discuss how powerful this character is, when we aren't given sufficient information? We have to make educated guesses based on a description of the build. Don't you fault us for that.

As for the power of "this fighter" or "this barbarian," these things can be reviewed in a vacuum, and I try to do that. But even in a vacuum, they have to be considered in light of the fact that they will be opposing a party of 4-6 PCs. I'm not going to score a Barbarian relative to a Warblade, but I am going to score him based on his ability to fight off an entire party as described (unless he is also described as having minions). And the fact of the matter is that, generally, a spellcaster is going to have more power in those scenarios.

Yes. Full casters will have a power advantage. I've said it. But if you look at my scores, you'll find that I didn't take the Sun Tzu method here. I didn't say "this build would have been better as a DMM Cleric," because that's not what the contest is about. I might have said "This build will have a hard time if there's a Cleric in the PC party," because that's a realistic consideration. But I don't rate builds based solely on the fact that they are or aren't Tier 1.

And the next time you decide to quote me, please consider the fact that what you're omitting may run contra to the point you're making.

[AvatarVecna]

At the same time, I fel both that the perceived problem is being exaggerated at best, I also find one point ringing true to me: that building a competent martial should be as impressive as building a competent caster, and shouldn't be inherently penalized for not being a caster. That said, it also can't be ignored that, in this competition at least, the build has to be capable of giving the PC party a good run for their money while still losing; a well-optimized fighter is still going to get curpstomped (not good), a well-optimized wizard is going to curbstomp (also not good), and a Bardblade is going to give them a decent challenge. Pure power isn't the only thing that matters, but if there's a ridiculously large difference between two build's relative power levels, the best we can do sometimes is to try our best to both judge the build on its own merits while also seeing how it stacks up against the competition.

[Telonius]

Very sorry everyone, real life emergency has cropped up - apparently a gas leak in my house set off the carbon monoxide detector. Fortunately everyone is okay, but until I get this sorted (which may take some time) I won't be able to post regularly. If someone wants to take over for this next competition, please feel welcome to.

[AvatarVecna]

I volunteer as tribute!

EDIT: I'll probably have it all fleshed out in a few hours at most.

[Jormengand]

Y'know, for our next competition, it would be cool if we could, in true "Fix my BBEG" style, have some kind of "Take something bad and make it good" contest for the next theme. Given that we apparently have no ideas for theme yet.

[Telonius]

Gwach did send me a list of drafted ideas, but some of them are kind of in the vague range that we're trying to avoid. I'll send on to AvatarVecna shortly.

[Jormengand]

I usually prefer it when the contestants provide ideas on Themes We'd Like to See rather than there just being a list, of things we'd not necessarily want to do.

[Troacctid]

Evil Artificer, Evil Biologist, and Pyromaniac are probably at the top of my list.

[atemu1234]

Evil Artificer, Evil Biologist, and Pyromaniac are probably at the top of my list.

Biologist. Please. Please. Pretty please.

[Troacctid]

Over in Junkyard Wars we were talking about having judges and winners vote on what to do for the next round, as an incentive to participate. Maybe we could do that here too.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, I do like elections...and I'm definitely having trouble deciding between my three finalist choices. Voting sound good to everyone?

[atemu1234]

Well, I do like elections...and I'm definitely having trouble deciding between my three finalist choices. Voting sound good to everyone?

Fine by me.

[Telonius]

Sounds fine to me! I'll abstain since I probably won't have time to actually put a build together this go-around.
(For those of you keeping track, somebody came by to clean out the flue; apparently some kind of a blockage or misalignment. No word on whether he spoke with a cockney accent).

[sakuuya]

+1 for Evil Artificer, unless we're supposed to vote in secret, in which case everybody forget you saw that. :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

Votes would be in-thread, although I'm sad to say that Evil Artificer wasn't something I was considering for this upcoming round; the next round, almost assuredly, but I've got a handful of ideas that I've been considering (including that one), and I've narrowed it down to three:

1) Here Be Dragons

It's not right how easily dragons can be defeated by squishy mortals with pointy hats and star-spangled robes. Let's show those adventurers why dragons are to be feared.

Contest goal: Design an optimized and flavorful dragon in its lair; highlighting various age categories throughout the build is appreciated. CR and wealth will be increased for this SI.
Limitations: True dragons only...and no kobolds! Dragon must have a well-defended lair somehow, whether through relative unreachability, traps, minions, or what have you.

2) Hyde from the Doctor

There's a monster on the loose; he's been altering his own body through means too vile to mention, and now he's on the prowl.

Contest goal: Design an optimized and flavorful person with self-altered biology. Currently, the only vaguely non-monstrous option.
Limitations: No offensive AoE effects (spells, powers, etc.).Must be a result of "altered biology", whether through grafts, demonic pacts, self-buffing, or what have you.

3) Ultimate Predator

You've been travelling through this natural environment for quite some time, and while you can't be sure, you think you're being, watched...followed...hunted.

Contest Goals: Design an optimized and flavorful hunter who has long since mastered hunting for prey in their environment. Preferred environment will be assumed during judging.
Limitations: No Constructs, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders, or Undead. Must specialize somehow at hunting while remaining undetected.

And, go!

[Amphetryon]

Of those three, I think Hyde is the most interesting from a contest perspective.

[sakuuya]

#3 for me!

[Red Fel]

I'm rather fond of #1. There's great potential for flavor there, excellent opportunities for creativity not only in terms of the Dragon itself, but its lair as well. Best of all, Dragons are a staple enemy; everyone knows them, everyone appreciates a good Dragon fight. Virtually any campaign can find a place to fit in a well-designed Dragon encounter.

I vote Dragons.

[AvatarVecna]

Three votes are in, with one for each idea. Isn't democracy wonderful?

[Red Fel]

Three votes are in, with one for each idea. Isn't democracy wonderful?

I'll be honest, I much prefer an old-fashioned dictatorship.

I do love to give dictation.

[illyahr]

I'm for #3. There's something scary about knowing there really is something in the dark that you can't see.

[atemu1234]

Three votes are in, with one for each idea. Isn't democracy wonderful?

Hyde for me.

[Troacctid]

Three votes are in, with one for each idea. Isn't democracy wonderful?

Yes, but the winners and judges are the ones whose votes count. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

I'm counting everyone's votes right now, because this is the first time we're doing this; at the end of the next round, participation will be a pre-req for voting.

[Jormengand]

Ugh, 2, because I want to create a character, not a monster. In fact, I have no idea how to create 2 either, but I still prefer it to either of the others on principle.

[AvatarVecna]

Ugh, 2, because I want to create a character, not a monster. In fact, I have no idea how to create 2 either, but I still prefer it to either of the others on principle.

It's kinda funny, because you said earlier that you wanted to improve something that's supposed to be awesome and really isn't, and the first thing that popped into my head is the Tarrasque. Well, I find it kinda funny, anyway...

[Jormengand]

It's kinda funny, because you said earlier that you wanted to improve something that's supposed to be awesome and really isn't, and the first thing that popped into my head is the Tarrasque. Well, I find it kinda funny, anyway...

You haven't read the Amkii thread, have you? :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

You haven't read the Amkii thread, have you? :smalltongue:

Are you referring to the IKEA Tarrasque? Because I've heard of that. If it wasn't that, then I can't say I know what you're referring to.

[falloutimperial]

I vote for the good evil doctor.

[Troacctid]

I'm counting everyone's votes right now, because this is the first time we're doing this; at the end of the next round, participation will be a pre-req for voting.

In that case, I'll vote for #1, since dragons are cool.

[Livius]

I like all of them, but I'll vote for #3.

[Vaz]

If the Dragon Magazine Dragons are allowed. Then im in for #1. Otherwise, #3.

[3SecondCultist]

I don't know if a newcomer can vote on anything, but if I could... #3 would be my choice. I absolutely intend to submit an entry next time! :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

Home maintenance update: the chimney sweep did not in fact have a cockney accent, which was slightly disappointing. Venting problem seems to be solved, and we've had one night's sleep without the CO alarm going off. So apparently existing in my house is no longer potentially fatal. (Yay!)

Side note, I'd like to make a suggestion for a future theme: BBEG who uses a poison gas attack.

Anyway, unless something else horrible happens, I'll be able to participate next time as a contestant.

[WeaselGuy]

I actually did a dragon a few contests back, and let me tell you, it was complicated! As much fun as it was, I vote for number 3.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, it's looking like option 3 is the winner this time, so I'm off to make the new thread.

[AvatarVecna]

Time for another round of "Optimize My BBEG!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430650-Villainous-Competition-VI-Clever-Girl&p=19595793)