3.5 core Cleric : does a 1 level dip of hierophant is worth it ?

[Timy]

Hi !

I am thinking of taking a 1 level dip in hierophant just for divine reach.

(harm/slay living/etc at 30 feet !!!)

What do you think ?

(taking in consideration that otherwise, I would not take 15 level in knowledge religion)

[Troacctid]

I'd say no. Losing a level of casting is a major cost. The benefit you're getting isn't remotely worth it IMO.

If you're looking to prestige as a core-only Cleric, you would be better off with Thaumaturgist. That contingent summoning ability is the nuts.

[Andezzar]

Giving up caster levels and casting progression is nearly never a good idea. Using a couple of SoD spells at 30 ft range is not worth it IMHO.

If you simply want more range for a couple of spells, look up Reach Spell (CD) and Ocular Spell (LoM). Divine Metamagic (CD) could help with removing the spell slot increase.

[Timy]

Giving up caster levels and casting progression is nearly never a good idea. Using a couple of SoD spells at 30 ft range is not worth it IMHO.

If you simply want more range for a couple of spells, look up Reach Spell (CD) and Ocular Spell (LoM). Divine Metamagic (CD) could help with removing the spell slot increase.

Yes, I know.

That's why I precised core only ^^

[Andezzar]

Sorry, I somehow missed that in the title.

[Jack_Simth]

Hi !

I am thinking of taking a 1 level dip in hierophant just for divine reach.

(harm/slay living/etc at 30 feet !!!)

What do you think ?

(taking in consideration that otherwise, I would not take 15 level in knowledge religion)

After 17th, when you have 9ths already, yes, it's worthwhile. Before then, not so much. Yes, being half a level of spell access behind does make that much difference.

[Flickerdart]

In Core, I'd say it's worth it after grabbing 17 levels of Cleric. A 19th level Cleric has 5 9th level spells; a 20th level Cleric has 6. Given how few there are to choose from, you don't lose out on much versatility, and staying power shouldn't be a problem at this level.

[Mystral]

Purely mechanically, it's a very weak choice, and you would be better off taking a level in cleric or just about any other prestige class.

That said, it is a good choice if your cleric (which is tier 1) is outpacing the rest of the group in power.

Is he?

[Spore]

Doesn't 3.5 have the Reach Spell Metamagic and Metamagic Rod? It's exactly that, for the cost of +1 spell level.

[Timy]

Purely mechanically, it's a very weak choice, and you would be better off taking a level in cleric or just about any other prestige class.

That said, it is a good choice if your cleric (which is tier 1) is outpacing the rest of the group in power.

Is he?

The barbarian and the warrior both complain that I do about more melee damage than themselves.

But for saturday game, I wan to see what happen if I cast more buff on them :D

[Jurai]

Reach Spell is not core, however.

[Mystral]

The barbarian and the warrior both complain that I do about more melee damage than themselves.

But for saturday game, I wan to see what happen if I cast more buff on them :D


Okay, cool, sounds like that prestige class is just what you need, something that clips your power a bit and enables you to better help the mundanes, while not demanding you to hold back.

Are their alignments the same as yours? You might even think of taking faith healing, then.

[Flickerdart]

Are their alignments the same as yours? You might even think of taking faith healing, then.
Cure is pointless at level 14 (the earliest one can enter hierophant in Core). A Cleric 13/Hierophant 1 casts heal for 130HP, or cure critical wounds for 4d8+13 (average 31HP). Spending an extra level to both reach and maximize cure critical wounds means that it now competes against 140HP from heal but only heals 45HP. Losing the extra 6th and 7th level slots from not going Cleric 14 means that the character has two fewer heals available, a total of 280HP healed.

A cleric 13/hierophant 2, assuming a Wisdom of 26, has 5 5th level slots, 7 4th level slots, 7 3rd level slots, 8 2nd level slots, and 8 1st level slots. If he used every single one of those slots to cast cure spells, maximizing them all (and taking off 1 point of CL from cure critical and cure serious for lower CL) would have the following impact:
4th and 5th level slots: +13 HP per cure
3rd level slots: +10 HP per cure
2nd level slots: +7 HP per cure
1st level slots: +4 HP per cure

This gives us a maximum daily healing increase of 156+70+49+32 = 307 points healed. You might notice that this is only 27 points more than the cleric level, while doing the maximum possible amounts of healing.

So no, Faith Healing is garbage.

[Mystral]

Cure is pointless at level 14 (the earliest one can enter hierophant in Core). A Cleric 13/Hierophant 1 casts heal for 130HP, or cure critical wounds for 4d8+13 (average 31HP). Spending an extra level to both reach and maximize cure critical wounds means that it now competes against 140HP from heal but only heals 45HP. Losing the extra 6th and 7th level slots from not going Cleric 14 means that the character has two fewer heals available, a total of 280HP healed.

A cleric 13/hierophant 2, assuming a Wisdom of 26, has 5 5th level slots, 7 4th level slots, 7 3rd level slots, 8 2nd level slots, and 8 1st level slots. If he used every single one of those slots to cast cure spells, maximizing them all (and taking off 1 point of CL from cure critical and cure serious for lower CL) would have the following impact:
4th and 5th level slots: +13 HP per cure
3rd level slots: +10 HP per cure
2nd level slots: +7 HP per cure
1st level slots: +4 HP per cure

This gives us a maximum daily healing increase of 156+70+49+32 = 307 points healed. You might notice that this is only 27 points more than the cleric level, while doing the maximum possible amounts of healing.

So no, Faith Healing is garbage.

Thank you for making my point. Yes, Faith Healing is garbage, so it is perfect when your cleric outstrips the mundane fighters in fighting power and you want to tone down your fighting ability and overall power in favour of helping the mundanes.

[Flickerdart]

Thank you for making my point. Yes, Faith Healing is garbage, so it is perfect when your cleric outstrips the mundane fighters in fighting power and you want to tone down your fighting ability and overall power in favour of helping the mundanes.
That's not what I'm trying to explain.

You are worse at helping the mundanes when you take Faith Healing because another level of cleric makes you better at healing except in edge circumstances (you have all day to cast every single spell slot you have as a cure spell).

Healing the mundanes for less is not helping them.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I still wouldn't take it. It is a level thrown away. Not outshining your teammates does not mean nerfing yourself into the ground. It means occupying a different niche. If I buff the fighter and drop BFC to protect him I am not better at combat than he is simply because I am not in combat. He can be the master of hitting things while I get to enjoy making him better at hitting things (and make things worse at hitting him).

I would recommend taking the Spell-like Ability one. Pick a nice buff you can cast on your allies, or maybe even just a heal spell

Edit: Got ninja'd partially

[Mystral]

That's not what I'm trying to explain.

You are worse at helping the mundanes when you take Faith Healing because another level of cleric makes you better at healing except in edge circumstances (you have all day to cast every single spell slot you have as a cure spell).

Healing the mundanes for less is not helping them.

You are assuming that this heal spell will be 100% effective and do not take overheal into account. If that barbarian is 50 HP down, what is more effective, casting heal or casting 2 CMW?

Also, you are ignoring the mass cure spells.

[Flickerdart]

You are assuming that this heal spell will be 100% effective and do not take overheal into account. If that barbarian is 50 HP down, what is more effective, casting heal or casting 2 CMW?

Waiting a round and then casting heal. If he can wait for a second CMW, he can wait for more damage to accrue.


Also, you are ignoring the mass cure spells.
Because they are irrelevant - you're getting much more useful healing out of a CCW cast from a 5th level slot than you are from a MCLW cast from that slot.

But wait, you may ask, what if your entire party is bunched up and there are at least five of you (making it heal more in total than CCW), and you're all only slightly injured so that there's no overheal?

Well then whoop tee doo, you cranked up the lead over just having two heals to something like 30 points per day in the most situational edge case possible. In all real scenarios for a cleric/hierophant, having more heal spells makes you a better healer.

[Telonius]

One level in Hierophant is best when it's used on your Cohort (for Gift of the Divine) in a non-core environment.

For a core-only game, Divine Reach is kind of nice if you're using Harm, or Inflict spells, or Dispel Good/Evil/etc. often. While you can go CoDzilla even in Core, it takes more time and resources to set up. Being able to damage enemies (or setting off an emergency Heal, for that matter) without getting into a threatened square is a nice tactical thing. Worth an 8th and a 9th level spell per day? ... well, probably not.

[Timy]

Thanks for all the input !

Actually, I was thinking of exploring the summon angle for some time now and maybe my 12th level coming soon is a good time to take spell focus (conjuration) and the first level of Thaumaturgist.

So it would resolve the spell slot problem and i would not have to spend some levels buying knowledge (religion) ranks (I didnt really look at that until now but I have actually only 2 point in knowledge (religion) and 10 INT so I would need to spend 7 level worth of skill points in order to have the 15 prerequisite...)

So...

does the thaumaturgist course seems better to you ?

[Mystral]

Thanks for all the input !

Actually, I was thinking of exploring the summon angle for some time now and maybe my 12th level coming soon is a good time to take spell focus (conjuration) and the first level of Thaumaturgist.

So it would resolve the spell slot problem and i would not have to spend some levels buying knowledge (religion) ranks (I didnt really look at that until now but I have actually only 2 point in knowledge (religion) and 10 INT so I would need to spend 7 level worth of skill points in order to have the 15 prerequisite...)

So...

does the thaumaturgist course seems better to you ?

Again, depends on what you want to do. If you want to go the summoning route, and you are bound to core, then Thaumaturgist is a fine choice.

But I don't think that your mundane buddies would be that happy if you were to not only outshine them in melee, but also to have you summoning dudes that outshine them, too, as well as having even more outshining dudes as cohorts and planar allies. Maybe ask them? Or offer them to control some of your guys?

But: You need to have the feat to enter the class. So if you only take the feat at level 12, level 13 would be the earliest possibility to enter the prestige class requiring it.