[3.5E] Is extraordinary paralysis a poison effect?

[Callum]

The thing that's led me to wonder if extraordinary paralysis is a poison effect is the opening paragraph of the paralysis special ability description in the SRD:


Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below.)

The first sentence explicitly doesn't include extraordinary paralysis, and then the second refers you to the poison section. Granted, it doesn't say "for extraordinary paralysis, see poison" - it sends you there for "paralysis from toxins". But the only poison that produces paralysis is carrion crawler brain juice (not available in the SRD, for IP reasons), which has the same DC and duration as the carrion crawler's extraordinary paralysis ability.

What do you think?

[Psyren]

You mean like a Ghoul? It doesn't say it's caused by a poison of some kind, therefore it isn't. It would be interesting to know whether that would work on, say, a warforged though.

[Telonius]

Huh, now that's weird. Elves are singled out as immune to the Ghoul's [Ex] paralysis ability (but not the Ghast's [Ex] paralysis ability) for some reason.

Anyway, if it's listed as an [Ex] ability, it's not a Supernatural or Spell-Like ability. I think I'd assume that paralysis from [Ex] abilities would be poison. Chuul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chuul.htm) and Tendriculous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm) have [Ex] abilities that paralyze, while Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) and Rast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rast.htm) have paralysis as a [Su] ability.

[HurinTheCursed]

I'd tend to consider the paralysis as poison effect only

if it is listed as initial or secondary poison damage
if it is an additional effect of the poison, like venomfire which doesn't damage creatures immuned to poison

[Psyren]

My personal opinion is that it should be a poison/disease effect unless it is Su - in which case you can shrug and say "it's magic, you can't move, don't try and explain it you just can't." A ghoul paralyzing a warforged just feels silly. Oh good, the designers actually agreed with me that it was silly, because warforged are in fact immune.

[Brova]

Huh, now that's weird. Elves are singled out as immune to the Ghoul's [Ex] paralysis ability (but not the Ghast's [Ex] paralysis ability) for some reason.

Okay, this is a total derail, but why is that? Like, where does that come from? Is there some 1e adventure about the deep enmity between elves and ghouls? It seems like a really weird thing to just throw into the elf write up.

[Psyren]

Okay, this is a total derail, but why is that? Like, where does that come from? Is there some 1e adventure about the deep enmity between elves and ghouls? It seems like a really weird thing to just throw into the elf write up.

Didn't Tolkien have some folks paralyzed by ghoulish creatures? And then in Tolkien, elves aren't worried about undead. Or am I misremembering?

[Telonius]

It's not even in the Elf writeup, it's in the Ghoul/Ghast writeup.

Ah, and an answer (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?215360-When-did-ghouls-become-undead/page2&p=3967138#post3967138) - from Gary Gygax himself!


When I devised the ghoul for the D&D game it was most assuredly with non-living energization, that is undead status, that enabled these creatures to exist and hunger for the flesh of dead humans and their ilk.

The principal motivation for classifying them as undead was to have a progressive level of such monsters--skeletons, zombies, ghouls, etc.

IMO, merely eating human flesh is quite insufficient to alter one to become a ghoul. Otherwise, many a remote tribe of savage aboriginies would be ghouls, not humans.

The negative energy of the ghoul is the rason for its paralyzing ability. Elves, having great positive energy, are thus immune to the effect.


Further discussion along those lines here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?109293-Basic-D-amp-D-Elves-and-immunity-to-ghoul-paralysis).

[Zombimode]

Didn't Tolkien have some folks paralyzed by ghoulish creatures? And then in Tolkien, elves aren't worried about undead. Or am I misremembering?

Nah. The specific immunity of elves vs. the ghouls paralysis is a old as the game itself. It is a tactical parameter: "Use elves to counter ghouls!"
The reason for that is nebulous but is probably no direct Tolien reference besides the vague notions that elves are "pure".

Edit: academic ninja'd by Telonius

[Psyren]

Nah. The specific immunity of elves vs. the ghouls paralysis is a old as the game itself. It is a tactical parameter: "Use elves to counter ghouls!"
The reason for that is nebulous but is probably no direct Tolien reference besides the vague notions that elves are "pure".

Edit: academic ninja'd by Telonius

Elves having "great positive energy" probably does have a few roots in Tolkien though.

[Brookshw]

It's not even in the Elf writeup, it's in the Ghoul/Ghast writeup.

Ah, and an answer (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?215360-When-did-ghouls-become-undead/page2&p=3967138#post3967138) - from Gary Gygax himself!



Further discussion along those lines here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?109293-Basic-D-amp-D-Elves-and-immunity-to-ghoul-paralysis).

Well holy.....
Thanks for the info and links!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

What do you think?

Paralysis is only a poison effect if it comes directly from a stated poison ability. Otherwise it's just an extraordinary ability to causes paralysis.

Take a look through your Monster Manuals: every poison effect is either listed as Poison (with effects listed in the stat block), or specifies "This is a poison effect" or something to that effect.

[Psyren]

Indeed, by RAW it is not poison.

But I am still confused as to how Ex Paralysis would work otherwise. To me that either implies a pathogen, toxin, or physical injury of some kind.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

To me that either implies a pathogen, toxin, or physical injury of some kind.

Agreed, yes.

It's possible that D&D doesn't consider neurotoxins a standard "poison." It's also highly likely that this is simply a case of mechanics being intentionally divorced from realism to allow two separate mechanics to exist: poison and paralysis, each with separate resistances and immunities.

[Stegyre]

Indeed, by RAW it is not poison.

But I am still confused as to how Ex Paralysis would work otherwise. To me that either implies a pathogen, toxin, or physical injury of some kind.
Psychosomatic: something about how the creature moves, looks, or strikes, tricks the brain of its victims to think they cannot move.

Nerve pinch or similarly exotic form of attack that temporarily blocks the nerve impulses.

[Psyren]

Psychosomatic: something about how the creature moves, looks, or strikes, tricks the brain of its victims to think they cannot move.

Nerve pinch or similarly exotic form of attack that temporarily blocks the nerve impulses.

It's not mind-affecting so the first one is out. But you actually might be onto something with the second. Rereading Warforged they are actually immune to this, and so are all other constructs, plants, oozes, elementals and undead. So it must indeed be some kind of nervous system shock. (Dragons overcome it simply by being very well-made.)

I'm a lot more okay with this now that I've noticed that line in those creature types.

[Callum]

Thanks for the responses! You've pretty much come to the same conclusion as I did - that extraordinary paralysis seems like it should be a poison effect (for example, the chuul's tentacles "exude a paralytic secretion"), but the RAW don't explicitly say that it is. Though there still is the oddity that extraordinary paralysis is not covered in the paralysis rules, and you're referred to poison rules that don't exist...