Question about Unarmed Strikes for Warblade/Monk

[Enyo]

Is it worth the smaller die for someone to go straight warblade and take Superior Unarmed Strike or should I dip 2 levels in monk for the improved unarmed strike and stunning fist? I know that the feats are the number one reason for taking any tome of battle class, but I just wanna make sure I'm not missing out on the extra points on doing normal melee attack whenever I refresh them.

[Hellborn_Blight]

Unless you want lots of monk, then skip it all together. The main reason is that splashing Monk ruins Superior Unarmed Strike. If you say, take 4 levels of monk and 16 Warblade, include Superior Unarmed strike, then you are only doing 1d10 at level 20. You could start doing that damage at lets say level 6, but because of how SUS is worded it would screw you to splash.

Special: If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed
damage as a monk four levels higher.

Granted, you could then take improved natural attack and bump it to 2d8, but if you don't want the feat investment then 1d10 us all you get

[Darrin]

Is it worth the smaller die for someone to go straight warblade and take Superior Unarmed Strike or should I dip 2 levels in monk for the improved unarmed strike and stunning fist? I know that the feats are the number one reason for taking any tome of battle class, but I just wanna make sure I'm not missing out on the extra points on doing normal melee attack whenever I refresh them.

The damage from Superior Unarmed Strike will improve over time. The monk dip will not. If you need to stun something, there are much more reliable ways to do that. White Raven Hammer, for example.

[Enyo]

Unless you want lots of monk, then skip it all together. The main reason is that splashing Monk ruins Superior Unarmed Strike. If you say, take 4 levels of monk and 16 Warblade, include Superior Unarmed strike, then you are only doing 1d10 at level 20. You could start doing that damage at lets say level 6, but because of how SUS is worded it would screw you to splash.

Special: If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed
damage as a monk four levels higher.

Granted, you could then take improved natural attack and bump it to 2d8, but if you don't want the feat investment then 1d10 us all you get

Wait, does improved natural attack count towards humans?

[Darrin]

Wait, does improved natural attack count towards humans?

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean, can a human take this feat to improve the damage of their unarmed strike, then yes. There's been some argument over whether non-monk unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, but this argument can be settled by referring to the text for magic weapon on page 251 of the PHB.

[Enyo]

So the best plan is to not do the monk dip altogether? I'm confused, since the first guy who replied to me said something about doing more damage as if you're four levels higher than your current level of monk as well as the improved natural attack feat. Unless he means that if I wanna take multiple levels in monk, those are my benefits in exchange for my effectiveness as a warblade?

[Darrin]

So the best plan is to not do the monk dip altogether?


That's usually the general consensus. I think that Hellborn Blight's point was that, in the long run, a Warblade 20 with Superior Unarmed Strike is going to have better damage (2d6) than a Monk 4/Warblade 16 with Superior Unarmed Strike (1d10).

However, the difference between a die type or damage step is really kind of trivial, and not something you should devote one of your precious feat slots to. Most of your damage is going to come from other sources, such as Str, enhancement bonus, weapon properties, etc. Trying to improve unarmed damage up to the point where it actually makes a difference can be done, but it requires an immensely disproportionate amount of resources for a mostly mediocre benefit.

It might be more helpful if we clarify what you're trying to accomplish with your Warblade. Do you want him to be an unarmed brawler, and focus on making his unarmed attacks do as much damage as possible? Are you looking to add unarmed strike to your TWF attacks? Or would you rather focus on standard action strikes?

[KingSmitty]

Dipping 2 levels of monk gives u unarmed damage of a level 2 monk.

Superior Unarmed Strike with ZERO monk levels gives you unarmed damage of a level 12 monk after 16 levels.

doing both gives u UAS for a level 6 monk.

at low levels it doesn't seem to be worth it unless you really work towards it. Improved Natural Attack brings it up one more die size, and then it starts to show.

2 levels of Unarmed Swordsage is the same as 2 levels of monk, just without the stunning (not worth it I'd have traded it away for an ACF anyway) or the bonus feats.

Depending on your level of optimization, you can get away with 2-4 levels of Monk, 2 levels of Unarmed Swordsage


Currently I'm playing a Monk4/swordsage2/shadowsunninja1/warblade1/MasterofNine1 and I'm having a blast. I've got tons of maneuvers, hit really hard, my AC is through the roof (have to get your DM to let Wis to AC for swordsage to apply when unarmored not just light armored). Its usually hard to get through our encounters without being touched, but my char is able to do so no sweat. Good thing too because he's a front liner with absolutely no HP

My party isn't very optimized, so check to see how hard the other PCs are going and don't listen to most of the hype around here about not taking much of Monk. IMO the great saves and good unarmed damage are worth it. Go with monk and don't look back.

[Enyo]

It might be more helpful if we clarify what you're trying to accomplish with your Warblade. Do you want him to be an unarmed brawler, and focus on making his unarmed attacks do as much damage as possible? Are you looking to add unarmed strike to your TWF attacks? Or would you rather focus on standard action strikes?

The first one.

[KingSmitty]

Aren't the first and last questions about what I'm trying to do with my character the same?

I need to make the most of my unarmed strikes whenever I refresh a maneuver during combat.

ill just drop this here.

Decisive Strike (PHB 2, p 51): Lose flurry of blows, gain ability to make one attack that deals double damage.

[Darrin]

I need to make the most of my unarmed strikes whenever I refresh a maneuver during combat.

I'm still not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Are unarmed strikes your primary attack to begin with? From a pure numbers standpoint, you're much better off full attacking with a greatsword on the rounds you need to refresh maneuvers.

Maybe another comparison might help:

Warblade 6
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Superior Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Combat Reflexes (5th)
Snap Kick (6th)
Full attack: unarmed1 +4/snap kick +4/unarmed2 -1
Average damage per hit: 3.5
Max damage: 10.5

Monk 2/Warblade 4
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Stunning Fist (1st)
Combat Reflexes (2nd)
Weapon Focus: unarmed strike (3rd)
Superior Unarmed Strike (6th)
Full attack (Flurry of Blows): unarmed1 +4/unarmed2 +4
Average damage per hit: 4.5 (slightly better, but won't improve much beyond this)
Max damage: 9.0

Kinda a wash... but at ECL 12, the Straight Warblade starts to pull ahead (and is hitting more often):

Warblade 12
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Superior Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Combat Reflexes (5th)
Snap Kick (6th)
Improved Natural Attack (9th)
Weapon Focus: unarmed strike (12th)
Full attack: unarmed1 +11/snap kick +11/unarmed2 +6/unarmed3 +1
Average damage per hit: 9.0
Max damage: 36.0

Monk 2/Warblade 10
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Stunning Fist (1st)
Combat Reflexes (2nd)
Weapon Focus: unarmed strike (3rd)
Superior Unarmed Strike (6th)
Improved Natural Attack (9th)
Snap Kick (12th)
Full attack (Flurry of Blows): unarmed1 +8/snap kick +8/unarmed2 +8/unarmed3 +3/unarmed4 -2
Average damage per hit: 7.0
Max damage: 35.0

At ECL 20, the Warblade 20 is doing 3d6 unarmed damage (avg 10.5) with SUS+INA, while the Monk 2/Warblade 18 is doing 2d6 unarmed damage (avg 7.0) with SUS+INA.

[Curmudgeon]

Superior Unarmed Strike with ZERO monk levels gives you unarmed damage of a level 12 monk after 16 levels.
That's only correct if the character is size Medium. If the character is size Small then Superior Unarmed Strike gives the same damage as a Monk of that level through level 19. If the character is size Large then SUS after 16 levels only gives the damage of a level 4 Monk. The feat's benefit is independent of size.

[Enyo]

I'm still not sure what you're trying to accomplish. Are unarmed strikes your primary attack to begin with? From a pure numbers standpoint, you're much better off full attacking with a greatsword on the rounds you need to refresh maneuvers.

Maybe another comparison might help:

Warblade 6
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Superior Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Combat Reflexes (5th)
Snap Kick (6th)
Full attack: unarmed1 +4/snap kick +4/unarmed2 -1
Average damage per hit: 3.5
Max damage: 10.5

Monk 2/Warblade 4
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Stunning Fist (1st)
Combat Reflexes (2nd)
Weapon Focus: unarmed strike (3rd)
Superior Unarmed Strike (6th)
Full attack (Flurry of Blows): unarmed1 +4/unarmed2 +4
Average damage per hit: 4.5 (slightly better, but won't improve much beyond this)
Max damage: 9.0

Kinda a wash... but at ECL 12, the Straight Warblade starts to pull ahead (and is hitting more often):

Warblade 12
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Superior Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Combat Reflexes (5th)
Snap Kick (6th)
Improved Natural Attack (9th)
Weapon Focus: unarmed strike (12th)
Full attack: unarmed1 +11/snap kick +11/unarmed2 +6/unarmed3 +1
Average damage per hit: 9.0
Max damage: 36.0

Monk 2/Warblade 10
Improved Unarmed Strike (1st)
Stunning Fist (1st)
Combat Reflexes (2nd)
Weapon Focus: unarmed strike (3rd)
Superior Unarmed Strike (6th)
Improved Natural Attack (9th)
Snap Kick (12th)
Full attack (Flurry of Blows): unarmed1 +8/snap kick +8/unarmed2 +8/unarmed3 +3/unarmed4 -2
Average damage per hit: 7.0
Max damage: 35.0

At ECL 20, the Warblade 20 is doing 3d6 unarmed damage (avg 10.5) with SUS+INA, while the Monk 2/Warblade 18 is doing 2d6 unarmed damage (avg 7.0) with SUS+INA.

I'm mainly focusing on using tiger claw and diamond mind maneuvers than any of the other disciplines. I heard the former does best either unarmed or two-weapon fighting.

[lord_khaine]

At the same time though, 2 levels of Monk does give both Evasion, a couple of nice bonus feats and a general boost to all saves.
it could often be worth the tradeoff even before looking at alternative class features.

[Enyo]

At ECL 20, the Warblade 20 is doing 3d6 unarmed damage (avg 10.5) with SUS+INA, while the Monk 2/Warblade 18 is doing 2d6 unarmed damage (avg 7.0) with SUS+INA.


Finally decided to just go straight unarmed warblade with spiked gauntlets, but the last question is does the effect of INA work with fists work with an non-monk unarmed fighter?

[Darrin]

Finally decided to just go straight unarmed warblade with spiked gauntlets, but the last question is does the effect of INA work with fists work with an non-monk unarmed fighter?

Yes, but if the non-monk unarmed fighter doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, then all INA does is improve his nonlethal damage from 1d3 to 1d4. If the non-monk unarmed fighter has Improved Unarmed Strike, then he can choose to do either lethal or non-lethal damage, but his default unarmed damage is the same: 1d3 without INA, 1d4 with.