In defense of {the now deceased} Roy

[Lord]

Well they did it for Miko so I'm going to do it for Roy. This thread will sort out some of the more unreasonable attacks on Roy. Post more replys or rebuttels if you want.

1.
Xykon was being a perfectly reasonable nagotiator and roy attacked him.
Reply: Before insulting Roy for this think about it if a evil lich told you that he would let you go train and have a better chance at defeating him, all while he takes over the world and rules it with an iron fist. What would you say.

2.
Roy makes snide comments to Elan therefore he is a cold hearted jerk.
Reply: Firstly Elan never really shows any sign of being hurt by the snide comments, as for being a coldhearted jerk Roy has definatly shown sign's of thinking of Elan as something like a little brother even if he says otherwise. {I.e taking three arrows for him.}

3.
Roy treats NPC's like inferior being's.
Reply: This is a bit unfair, as others have said before, this is a running gag on the nature of PC's, so it's not to be taken seriously.

4.
Roy should never have attacked Miko he should have played phychiatrist.
Reply: This and variations of it mostly came from threads around the most recent Roy VS Miko fight. Apparently Miko is allowed to jump to conclusions on very shaky grounds and then play judge jury and exacutioner. But Roy is not allowed to subdue a potentially dangerous murderer quickly without finding out the meaning of life beforehand. Yeah I know its a little old but whatever.

Thats all for now due to many critiscisms having not been heard for a while but I'll try to post more if I can think of them.

P.S I have nothing against Miko lovers I just disagree with them.

[Da Luniz]

Vengeance shall be brought upon the guilty! There shall be no excuses! A cleansing fire will burn them!

[Icewalker]

Thank you for posting this. I whole-heartedly agree with all of em. Well said.

[Demented]

...think about it if a evil lich told you that he would let you go train and have a better chance at defeating him, all while he takes over the world and rules it with an iron fist. What would you say.

"Sure thing, boss!"

Though, I do so enjoy Xykon's philosophy on life.

[Shadic]

Vengeance shall be brought upon the guilty! There shall be no excuses! A cleansing fire will burn them!

And yet, none of the Miko-Fans said that when she lost her Paladin abilities.

[Setra]

And yet, none of the Miko-Fans said that when she lost her Paladin abilities.
I'm a Miko fan.

But I am also evil.

So yeah, that's my excuse.

Edit: Seriously though, Roy is/was cool.

[Demented]

All we need now are theories that Roy wouldn't have fallen if Miko had just given him the time of day, and the cycle would be complete. =P

[Lowlysoldier]

I agree as well. I actually thought Roy was one of the better characters, not only because he was cool but because he was one of the more "serious" characters in the Order. Don't get me wrong, I adore this comic's humor, and I think that Belkar is the best character hands down. However, without Roy, I have a strong feeling that this comic would lose some of its "story" feel. I'm not saying that all the other characters do nothing but crack jokes, but their general character tends to favor a more joking theme. E.g. Elan's innocent and, well... stupid nature, Belkar's violent (and only) tendancies, or V's over-thought theory on the "mind" of Belkar.

Basically, there is no doubt in my mind that Roy is the most 3-Dimensional character in oots, although the others certainly aren't by any means "flat."

[the_tick_rules]

if you had to deal with the OOTS wouldn't you be a little rough from time to time?

[happyturtle]

5. Roy was stupid to take on Xykon alone.

Reply: Roy defeated Xykon easily in their first confrontation. He doesn't get to read all the Xykon centered strips that we do, so he has no way of knowing how powerful Xykon is. Durkon and Haley let him jump, so they must have also thought he had a chance.

6. Why didn't he come up with some sort of strategy for dealing with Xykon? He's acting without a plan!

Reply: Yesterday, Roy's plan was to get Wizard Guy resurrected and travel with his team to check on Girard's gate, where they could set a trap for Xykon. Along the way, there was a little matter of a regicidal paladin and the sudden revelation that they were about to be drowning in hobgoblins. There hasn't been much time for reflection.

[Cade Shadow]

I agree with everything so far. Well done, you 2.

[RMS Oceanic]

7. He threw all those fluffy animals to their deaths!

a. They are not really alive. If "killed", they just disappear.
b. He can dismiss them as he sees fit, which he may have done. We'll never know.
c. Even if they were alive, I doubt Roy's pockets would have provided enough cushioning for the impact of a fall of that hight. Inside the bag or out, they would have been squished..

[Da Pianoman]

Well, Obviously, Roy isn't dead. He just pulled a Spongebob trick and made a robo copy of himself, just like when spongebob had to go to that prom and he made a robot to do it for him. In a deleted scene. Obviously. Yeah.

Oh, and the animals deserved it for not being a giant eagle.

[TempusCCK]

Oh, and the animals deserved it for not being a giant eagle.

That's the smartest thing I've heard all day.

[jindra34]

That's the smartest thing I've heard all day.
Well high emotional shock drops Int. by 5 for a week unless you make a DC 75 will save

[whitedog20]

Oh, and the animals deserved it for not being a giant eagle.

Yeah I agree witchoo man, that IS the smartest thing eva'

but the whole spongbob analogy I thought was sorta dumb.

[GoC]

1. Xykon was being a perfectly reasonable nagotiator and roy attacked him.
Reply: Before insulting Roy for this think about it if a evil lich told you that he would let you go train and have a better chance at defeating him, all while he takes over the world and rules it with an iron fist. What would you say.

4.
Roy should never have attacked Miko he should have played phychiatrist.
Reply: This and variations of it mostly came from threads around the most recent Roy VS Miko fight. Apparently Miko is allowed to jump to conclusions on very shaky grounds and then play judge jury and exacutioner. But Roy is not allowed to subdue a potentially dangerous murderer quickly without finding out the meaning of life beforehand. Yeah I know its a little old but whatever.

1. I'd say: "Heck, yes!", gather the highest level fighters/casters/PCs I could and THEN attack him.

4. This is very misleading. The correct version is:
Roy shouldn't have attacked Miko immediately he should have played phychiatrist first.
The reply to the reply: Miko is not allowed to "jump to conclusions on very shaky grounds and then play judge jury and exacutioner" but she's not guilty for reason of insanity.:smallyuk: However as a sane lawful good character who sees someone who's finaly having doubts about their evil actions, he should have stood by ready to attack if she made any sudden moves and let Hinjo do the talking. Once she refuses he is then free to beat the crap out of her.:smallamused:

-A fan of Blackguard Miko

GoC

[Gaelbert]

Preach it brother(s) and/or sister(s)! Roy is/was/will continue to be awesome!

[Lord]

1. I'd say: "Heck, yes!", gather the highest level fighters/casters/PCs I could and THEN attack him.

4. This is very misleading. The correct version is:
Roy shouldn't have attacked Miko immediately he should have played phychiatrist first.
The reply to the reply: Miko is not allowed to "jump to conclusions on very shaky grounds and then play judge jury and exacutioner" but she's not guilty for reason of insanity.:smallyuk: However as a sane lawful good character who sees someone who's finaly having doubts about their evil actions, he should have stood by ready to attack if she made any sudden moves and let Hinjo do the talking. Once she refuses he is then free to beat the crap out of her.:smallamused:

-A fan of Blackguard Miko

GoC

3. Firstly the fact is that Roy did not have time for that, to get the highest level fighter would take months if not years and Xykon would have already unleashed the Snarl and won by then.

4. So according to your logic a madman who is insane and murder people on a daily basis is not guilty. AKA Belker. Besides Miko has shown herself to be a highly dangerous adversary and Roy did not know how easy or difficult it would be to defeat her. So he took the chance to get the jump on her. Besides she was a possible threat. When the Army are clearing a room and a terrorist hesitates they don't play pull up a chair and find out his what in his past made him start being a terrorist, they shoot him dead.

[Athelian]

1. I'd say: "Heck, yes!", gather the highest level fighters/casters/PCs I could and THEN attack him.

-A fan of Blackguard Miko

GoC

So, you would be willing to back down to the murderous undead being, full well knowing that afore mentioned undead being would conquer the known world, slay millions of people, raise them into disgusting mockeries of life, and get farther in his maniacal plans to unleash a god killing aberration of nature on the off chance you could raise enough levels and gather enough followers to somehow end up in this one on one (Bypassing the evil acolytes and undead/hobgoblin horde which would have swelled to the millions by then,) Situation and hope he hasn't hit epic levels, before accomplishing aforementioned goals.

Mmhmm.

Sooo... Definitely a fan of Miko?

Look, Roy has shown the highest moral fiber by simply saying, "No, I'm not going to back down. I'm not going to allow you to kill so many innocents. I'm not going to allow to end this world without a fight. I am standing up to you." Roy has shown bravery, honor, and dedication to his goal. He would rather die than allow more innocents to be killed. He would rather die than allow this world to be dominated by a hell spawned lich. He would rather die, than allow Xykon to win.

[PaladinBoy]

4. So according to your logic a madman who is insane and murder people on a daily basis is not guilty. AKA Belker. Besides Miko has shown herself to be a highly dangerous adversary and Roy did not know how easy or difficult it would be to defeat her. So he took the chance to get the jump on her. Besides she was a possible threat. When the Army are clearing a room and a terrorist hesitates they don't play pull up a chair and find out his what in his past made him start being a terrorist, they shoot him dead.

I think that Roy's actions were not entirely motivated towards stopping Miko. Do you seriously insult someone's personal life when all you're worried about is stopping them? All those nasty insults only drove Miko farther away from Good; Roy should at the very least have simply stopped Miko rather than insulting her. I also think that Roy should have tried to capitalize on Miko's confusion to attempt to turn her away from Evil, though that is more of an exalted option.

Roy's actions were not evil, but they were not good either. What he did makes sense considering his character, but it was not Good. Which is not to imply that Roy is not good as a whole; it's not like that one event would constitute alignment change.

Comparing this to soldiers clearing out a room is a little erroneous. The terrorist can kill quickly and with almost no warning. Miko can attack with her sword; I'm sure Roy can survive one hit. Also, the Army would be very happy if a terrorist hesitated and they didn't have to shoot him, as he would then become a potential information source languishing in a prison.

Oh, and a madman who is insane would be not guilty by insanity. He wouldn't be set free, but he wouldn't be considered truly Evil, just like animals with no mental capacity for good and evil are TN in D&D.

EDIT: I agree that Roy died bravely and heroically. He sacrificed his life rather than back down from defense of a Good cause.

As for what happens to Roy now:
Oh, and why is everyone using "was" for Roy? He's gonna come back. Durkon can cast raise dead. (Ooh! Sidequest for necessary diamonds!) If Azure City survives, they'll probably raise Roy out of gratitude. (As well as erect a statue in honor of his sacrifice. :smallbiggrin: )

[Demented]

Oh, and a madman who is insane would be not guilty by insanity. He wouldn't be set free, but he wouldn't be considered truly Evil, just like animals with no mental capacity for good and evil are TN in D&D.

Like thog? :thog:

[ZeroNumerous]

Before insulting Roy for this think about it if a evil lich told you that he would let you go train and have a better chance at defeating him, all while he takes over the world and rules it with an iron fist. What would you say.

"Are you accepting recruits and/or looking to expand your living command staff? If so, I have a very extensive resume I would like you to look at.."

EDIT:

As for the insanity defense: Thats fairly irrelevant. It's Rich's world, so Good and Evil function as he sees fit. One could argue that Miko had been driven to insanity by her constant paranoia, but she still lost her powers by doing an Evil act. Ergo, Evil actions are inherently evil regardless of the circumstances.

[Silverlocke980]

The biggest problem most people have with Roy is "he's not funny, whar funny?"

Roy is hilarious. But his brand of humor is the "straight man" brand; dry and sometimes cutting, but mostly just removed and resigned to all the insanity going on around him.

Roy isn't mean. He's a man who lives with what he regards as a bunch of lunatics, with the only exceptions being two spellcasters. Meaning he has to let them sleep while he guards camp.

Meaning he doesn't get much sleep. Ever.

Roy is a wonderful character. He's meant as a counterpoint, as a contrast; that is why he is so different.

Now everyone who says he's mean, shut up. Or I'll come after you with Weapon Specialization and great Cleavage.

....I think I just single-handedly ruined this thread...

[JonathanC]

In defense of Roy...I never realized how important he was until he died. My interest in the comic has suffered tremendously. It's not bad, and I still have some interest (Start of Darkness!), but honestly....this strip just seemed kind of "blah" to me, and I don't think I like the prospects of reading a comic where the closest thing to a protagonist is Elan.

[bluish_wolf]

In defense of Roy...I never realized how important he was until he died. My interest in the comic has suffered tremendously. It's not bad, and I still have some interest (Start of Darkness!), but honestly....this strip just seemed kind of "blah" to me, and I don't think I like the prospects of reading a comic where the closest thing to a protagonist is Elan.

It's more likely Haley will be the new protagonist since she's the second in command.

[JonathanC]

It's more likely Haley will be the new protagonist since she's the second in command.

The problem remains: None of them are all that funny without a straight man to bounce the jokes off of, for the most part. I enjoyed the Elan/Thog teamup, but I don't think I could take an extended series of strips that are basically just wacky hijinks and character flaws with nobody to contrast them against.

This wouldn't be the first time that a character death killed a comic for me.

[Milandros]

[QUOTE=PaladinBoy;2477437]I think that Roy's actions were not entirely motivated towards stopping Miko. Do you seriously insult someone's personal life when all you're worried about is stopping them?
QUOTE]

In a fight? People use gratuitous insults all the time. It's both a tactic to keep them angry and not thinking straight and to keep yourself worked up so you're on an andrenaline rush.

How many fight scenes have you seen in the movies where someone goes "I'm going to <bleep>ing kill you, you <bleep>ing <bleep> <bleep><bleep>-er!"

Roy isn naturally sarcastic by nature. Somehow I think though that if he'd made penis size jokes against Nale there would be a lot less worry than perosnal remarks against the lovely, desireable, sexy kung-fu chick.

[Milandros]

Look, Roy has shown the highest moral fiber by simply saying, "No, I'm not going to back down. I'm not going to allow you to kill so many innocents. I'm not going to allow to end this world without a fight. I am standing up to you." Roy has shown bravery, honor, and dedication to his goal. He would rather die than allow more innocents to be killed. He would rather die than allow this world to be dominated by a hell spawned lich. He would rather die, than allow Xykon to win.

Absolutely. Roy is a hero. He doesn't do "the smart thing" like running away, turning to the bad guys' side or keeping himself safe and not caring about the rest. He does the right thing instead.

The only half-way close argument I've heard about his actions recently was maybe he should have kept Xykon talking for a little longer in the hope that either (a) something, somehow would appear by magic and prevent hgim from having to take Xykon on in melee and (b) that the additional delay would keep Xykon out of the battle for longer.
As far as (a) goes, I think it's a fairly forlorn hope, and I wouldn't trade getting two good blows in for that hope plus Xykon getting the first attack.
For (b), It's a battle, and even a whole thirty seconds - heck, maybe a whole minute of delay to Xykon is not going to make a lot of difference. He doesn't turn into a pumpkin at midnight, and that minute is excessively unlikely to suddenly produce a sudden win for the good guys over the evil army.


If you really want to see Roy here, look at the first panel from #430.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html
That's Roy.

[idioscosmos]

Somehow I think though that if he'd made penis size jokes against Nale there would be a lot less worry than perosnal remarks against the kung-fu stick figure.

Fixed that for you.

Seriously folks - it's odd enough to think any make-believe person is "hawt" - but when you start siding with a stick figure because she's "hawt"....how do I say this? It's time to turn off the computer and go out side.


/Not tryin' to offend anyone
//Hawt chicks look WAY different IRL
///Mebby try talking to one?
////:smalltongue:

[Sammi_Somara]

In defense of Roy...I never realized how important he was until he died. My interest in the comic has suffered tremendously. It's not bad, and I still have some interest (Start of Darkness!), but honestly....this strip just seemed kind of "blah" to me, and I don't think I like the prospects of reading a comic where the closest thing to a protagonist is Elan.


Yeah I agree...I never really liked Roy, but when he died, suddenly I got the feeling that the rest of the story will be...empty. ...Heck, I'm not even sure if I'll come back on Friday to see the new strip...

[GoC]

So, you would be willing to back down to the murderous undead being, full well knowing that afore mentioned undead being would conquer the known world, slay millions of people, raise them into disgusting mockeries of life, and get farther in his maniacal plans to unleash a god killing aberration of nature on the off chance you could raise enough levels and gather enough followers to somehow end up in this one on one (Bypassing the evil acolytes and undead/hobgoblin horde which would have swelled to the millions by then,) Situation and hope he hasn't hit epic levels, before accomplishing aforementioned goals.

Mmhmm.

Sooo... Definitely a fan of Miko?

Look, Roy has shown the highest moral fiber by simply saying, "No, I'm not going to back down. I'm not going to allow you to kill so many innocents. I'm not going to allow to end this world without a fight. I am standing up to you." Roy has shown bravery, honor, and dedication to his goal. He would rather die than allow more innocents to be killed. He would rather die than allow this world to be dominated by a hell spawned lich. He would rather die, than allow Xykon to win.

I'm a fan of Miko joining the coolest team in the comic and turning it into The_Fantasticaly_Evil_Four!

If you put those statements in a nice logic diagram you'll see they don't work.
Examples:
He would rather die than allow more innocents to be killed.
He would rather die than allow this world to be dominated by a hell spawned lich.
He would rather die, than allow Xykon to win.

All of these use "than". If his death would indeed prevent the deaths of those innocents ect. then they would be true. As they are now they're false.

Ignoring that for now, I say the following:
I wouldn't attack a powerful sorcerer lich in the one-in-a-million chance that I will roll all 20s and he will roll all 1s. Gathering other people to help you deal with something you can't handle instead of letting your ego get in the way is a good idea. He should have had Xykon drop him off just outside the city walls (he has succeeded in his intended purpose of slowing Xykon down anyway), gathered his team and joined the high level NPCs in the castle to lie in ambush. As it is he caused the loss of a high level fighter who could have been better used in the final battle against Xykon.
Someone posted the "bob vs. bill" analogy in one of these threads about whether or not he should have attacked xykon but I can't find it. The summary was that if he had accepted Xykons offer he would have saved more innocents than he did be attacking Xykon.

btw: Quite a touching speach. :smallbiggrin:

Milandros: This is D&D and Roy doesn't have any levels in dashing swordsman so
In a fight? People use gratuitous insults all the time. It's both a tactic to keep them angry and not thinking straight and to keep yourself worked up so you're on an andrenaline rush.
How many fight scenes have you seen in the movies where someone goes "I'm going to <bleep>ing kill you, you <bleep>ing <bleep> <bleep><bleep>-er!
isn't relevant.

Whether it was the "right" thing to do depends on whether you care more about saving lives or dieing a heroic death. He would have saved more lives if he'd just kept Xykon talking and continued feeding his ego in the hope that he would get overconfident or help would come.

[Albonor]

Milandros: This is D&D and Roy doesn't have any levels in dashing swordsman so
In a fight? People use gratuitous insults all the time. It's both a tactic to keep them angry and not thinking straight and to keep yourself worked up so you're on an andrenaline rush.
How many fight scenes have you seen in the movies where someone goes "I'm going to <bleep>ing kill you, you <bleep>ing <bleep> <bleep><bleep>-er!
isn't relevant.

Yes, it is. because OOTS is a comic ABOUT a DnD game, not an explanation of the mechanics. It belongs in your comic books collection, not your gaming books. These insults are a way to flesh out the characters. Roy is a strategists, he found a way to use more than his arms in battle. That is what makes him a character and not a face and a name on a character SHEET.

DnD doesn't allow any bonuses for insulting your opponent. But storytelling does.

[Tobrian]

Originally Posted by Milandros
Somehow I think though that if he'd made penis size jokes against Nale there would be a lot less worry than perosnal remarks against the kung-fu stick figure.

Fixed that for you.

Seriously folks - it's odd enough to think any make-believe person is "hawt" - but when you start siding with a stick figure because she's "hawt"....how do I say this? It's time to turn off the computer and go out side.

/Not tryin' to offend anyone
//Hawt chicks look WAY different IRL
///Mebby try talking to one?
////:smalltongue:

Maybe it's time for you to turn off the computer and think before you post, instead of insulting Milandros. :smallyuk:


Roy isn naturally sarcastic by nature. Somehow I think though that if he'd made penis size jokes against Nale there would be a lot less worry than perosnal remarks against the lovely, desireable, sexy kung-fu chick.

Let's examine this paragraph again: Milandros never said he thinks that he finds Miko the STICK-FIGURE "hawt". Milandros sarcastically commented on how Miko-fans complain and whine and side with Miko because THEY define her as a "lovely, desireable, sexy kung-fu chick" and by modern conventions any man who insults a sexy woman is considered a mean jerk who deserves to die (just look at the movie paradigm, any male character who hurts or directly kills a woman, even if she's a female villain, will DIE, that why female villains usually get offed by female heroes, or just fall off a cliff while they're trying to kill the male hero), while if Roy had insulted Nale, the Miko-fans wouldn't have bothered to come screaming out of the woodwork about how Roy's alignment should suffer for making tasteless bad puns. Sheesh.

[Gri]

srsly is it because he is black?

[Gri]

Maybe it's time for you to turn off the computer and think before you post, instead of insulting Milandros. :smallyuk:



Let's examine this paragraph again: Milandros never said he thinks that he finds Miko the STICK-FIGURE "hawt". Milandros sarcastically commented on how Miko-fans complain and whine and side with Miko because THEY define her as a "lovely, desireable, sexy kung-fu chick" and by modern conventions any man who insults a sexy woman is considered a mean jerk who deserves to die (just look at the movie paradigm, any male character who hurts or directly kills a woman, even if she's a female villain, will DIE, that why female villains usually get offed by female heroes, or just fall off a cliff while they're trying to kill the male hero), while if Roy had insulted Nale, the Miko-fans wouldn't have bothered to come screaming out of the woodwork about how Roy's alignment should suffer for making tasteless bad puns. Sheesh.

In Twin Peaks the main protagonist punches a woman in the stomach. Nothing bad happens to him. Check mate.

[Da Luniz]

..but that show was someones acid trip

[cucchulainnn]

A lot of people think it is never acceptable to be mean to women. They might not acknowledge it but deep down inside they feel this way. That is probably the most likely reason people got upset at Roy for attacking Miko.

[bluish_wolf]

Fixed that for you.

Seriously folks - it's odd enough to think any make-believe person is "hawt" - but when you start siding with a stick figure because she's "hawt"....how do I say this? It's time to turn off the computer and go out side.


/Not tryin' to offend anyone
//Hawt chicks look WAY different IRL
///Mebby try talking to one?
////:smalltongue:

Nonsense. 2D girls are way better than real life ones.

[Lord]

I'm a fan of Miko joining the coolest team in the comic and turning it into The_Fantasticaly_Evil_Four!

If you put those statements in a nice logic diagram you'll see they don't work.
Examples:
He would rather die than allow more innocents to be killed.
He would rather die than allow this world to be dominated by a hell spawned lich.
He would rather die, than allow Xykon to win.

All of these use "than". If his death would indeed prevent the deaths of those innocents ect. then they would be true. As they are now they're false.

Ignoring that for now, I say the following:
I wouldn't attack a powerful sorcerer lich in the one-in-a-million chance that I will roll all 20s and he will roll all 1s. Gathering other people to help you deal with something you can't handle instead of letting your ego get in the way is a good idea. He should have had Xykon drop him off just outside the city walls (he has succeeded in his intended purpose of slowing Xykon down anyway), gathered his team and joined the high level NPCs in the castle to lie in ambush. As it is he caused the loss of a high level fighter who could have been better used in the final battle against Xykon.
Someone posted the "bob vs. bill" analogy in one of these threads about whether or not he should have attacked xykon but I can't find it. The summary was that if he had accepted Xykons offer he would have saved more innocents than he did be attacking Xykon.

btw: Quite a touching speach. :smallbiggrin:

Milandros: This is D&D and Roy doesn't have any levels in dashing swordsman so
In a fight? People use gratuitous insults all the time. It's both a tactic to keep them angry and not thinking straight and to keep yourself worked up so you're on an andrenaline rush.
How many fight scenes have you seen in the movies where someone goes "I'm going to <bleep>ing kill you, you <bleep>ing <bleep> <bleep><bleep>-er!
isn't relevant.

Whether it was the "right" thing to do depends on whether you care more about saving lives or dieing a heroic death. He would have saved more lives if he'd just kept Xykon talking and continued feeding his ego in the hope that he would get overconfident or help would come.

Thats correct assuming against all evidence that Roy KNEW that his actions would end in him dieing and saving no innocents. Its also assuming that he knew just how powerful Xykon was which he didn't. Oh and last time I checked Xykon would have had the Snarl under his control, which incidently is AN ABOMINATION THAT COMPLETELY DESTROYED AN ENTIRE PANTHEON OF GODS!!! If every person in the world were to be mustered you still couldn't beat the Snarl. It wouldn't matter how many high level warriors he gathered together, he would still lose. The fact is that six of the most powerful people in the world beat the Snarls Arm with a lot of trouble and one of them died.

[GoC]

Thats correct assuming against all evidence that Roy KNEW that his actions would end in him dieing and saving no innocents. Its also assuming that he knew just how powerful Xykon was which he didn't. Oh and last time I checked Xykon would have had the Snarl under his control, which incidently is AN ABOMINATION THAT COMPLETELY DESTROYED AN ENTIRE PANTHEON OF GODS!!! If every person in the world were to be mustered you still couldn't beat the Snarl. It wouldn't matter how many high level warriors he gathered together, he would still lose. The fact is that six of the most powerful people in the world beat the Snarls Arm with a lot of trouble and one of them died.

It will take Xykon an hour or so to get to the thrown room. It would take Roy less time to gather the rest of the OotS and join the highest level paladins and spellcasters.
Roy knew he was at least a 14th level lich (finger of death).
And when he realised that his attacks weren't going to kill Xykon in time he should have stopped and negotiated.

[EvilElitest]

It will take Xykon an hour or so to get to the thrown room. It would take Roy less time to gather the rest of the OotS and join the highest level paladins and spellcasters.
Roy knew he was at least a 14th level lich (finger of death).
And when he realised that his attacks weren't going to kill Xykon in time he should have stopped and negotiated.

Dude, he would ahve been droped behind the enemy lines, hence keeping Roy from dong any thing, allowing Xykon to fly and metor swarm the wall itself, killing maybe 50 guys, possible including three members of OOTS. Then flying off and cast even more nasty magic. Currently it is the same, except Xykon's Metor swarm is being used on one fighters (and his own dragon) and Xykon is an easier target. Also, four members of OOTS are still alive

Sure roy knows that Xykon was level 14, but how many spells could he have? Roy doesn't know, and considering he has a +5 two handed sword wtih special damage against undead, quite frankly he could make a difference, though possible at the cost of his own life

Also, roy doesn't know that Xykon had already cast overland flight, hence it would be quite possible that Xykon would use area spells, for fear of falling from his dragon and taking damage and/or not being able to get to the battle in time. I mean, roy hit him about 7 times, and he used up four spells already, two of them fingers of death and on metor swarm, plus he is using that overland flight and is minis a dragon zombie

This is very misleading. The correct version is:
Roy shouldn't have attacked Miko immediately he should have played phychiatrist first.

The reply to the reply: Miko is not allowed to "jump to conclusions on very shaky grounds and then play judge jury and exacutioner" but she's not guilty for reason of insanity. However as a sane lawful good character who sees someone who's finaly having doubts about their evil actions, he should have stood by ready to attack if she made any sudden moves and let Hinjo do the talking. Once she refuses he is then free to beat the crap out of her.

Doesn't matter if your insane or not, in D&D viture of insanity does nothing, your actions are still the same

Also, screw it if she is having doubts about her evil actions, she is still a very dangours threat and lost the chance of redeemption

"This isn't the peak of a humanitarion summit. This is war"
From General Grande, FMA
Anyways, she is very dangerous, highly unstable, armed, and also guilty of muder. It is Roy's duty to subdue her. Not doing so would be an endangerment to everyone around her, as HInjo proved. She had the chance to surrender, giving her more would be going above and beyond LG

If Miko can get away with killing those bandits, Roy gets away with attackin her, more so because she is a paladin
from,
EE

[Jade_Tarem]

And when he realised that his attacks weren't going to kill Xykon in time he should have stopped and negotiated.

I seriously doubt that Roy's mindset was: "I'm going to die for no reason, since I have no chance of killing Xykon."

In DnD, (not reality, never reality :smalltongue:), you don't know whether or not you can beat a spellcaster until the caster shows the true extent of their powers. For all Roy knew, Xykon was bluffing about being 7 levels higher (it is 7, by the way, and not 8 because 8 would put Xykon at level 21, at which point the Order should just go home because Xykon would have access to epic magic, meaning he automatically wins everything). At that point he was probably just focused on killing Xykon, not crunching numbers.

[MReav]

A lot of people think it is never acceptable to be mean to women.

Just a pipe in, I proudly wear my egalitarian notions on violence. Someone wants to start something with me and they're of legal age and sound mind (or the same age if we were both minors back when I was a minor), I'd be more than willing to hit that, no matter who you are.

Back on topic.

I think Roy's attack on Roy was what makes people think "Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb*" It's all good and noble and heroic, but the odds really were against him (especially since he concentrated on beating up the dragon for a bit too long).

*I've never agreed with that statement because Evil is often just as dumb, they just express it in different ways

[Zynex]

wow... i never thought that Roy failing to take down Xykon could raise so many issues about his wrongs.

Anyway, mistakes were made, actions done, opportunities come and gone, but now is not really the time whether to question his decisions in situations where level-headedness are hard to come by.

since this is a thread about "defending" Roy's actions, some opinions.

First of, when Roy attacked Miko, he was thoroughly enraged, well as enraged and level headed as he could be at the same time, and frustrated that Miko eliminated then the only other individual that actually moved hands into stopping the whole end-of-the-world thing. Hence, due to his frustrations, he takes it out on Miko by insulting her while beating the crap outta her fallen arse. I liked Miko's character the first time she appeared, and I still put her in good regard although her actions drawn by confusion just didn't sit well with me and having been knocked down a few pegs may have been the wake up call she needs to clear her head, whether she inclines to or not. For a character that's supposed to have high Wisdom stat., she wasn't wise enough to not jump to conclusions and concentrate on the matter at hand, meaning the hobgoblin invasion.

Second, the Roy not accepting Xykon's offer thing. Everybody seems to think that Roy should've used the better part of valor or that he was just vain to take on a sorcerer who clearly is leagues above him in terms of destructive capabilities but has anyone considered that maybe, just a small maybe actually, that Roy was just trying to do the right thing. Sure, he admitted himself that he got into the whole quest for all the wrong reasons (meaning it was a reason of vanity before) but just admitting that gives a hint that he was just doing the best a lawful and good character could do given the dire circumstances. He was the only one who could harm Xykon and his dragon effectively, he was the only one who has had a history of taking on the lich and come out alive (be it luck or brute force), and he was definitely the only one then that could reach the mighty sorcerer (thanks to a Belkar nudge) and actually do some damage. Moreover, Xykon was going for checkmate. The moment he reaches the throne room, there would not be apt time to rally the whole gang of the OOTS or any one member of them to actually try to stop Xykon from his goal then, and it's highly unlikely there would've been anyone inside the throne room to actually even scratch his scrawny hide. So, even if the queen needs to take a fall for the king to survive, what needs to be done needs to be done.

Still Moreover, if Roy would've accepted the offer to fight another day, what would've stopped Xykon from randomly killing Celia if ever they cross paths during the whole time period Xykon said, or kill Julia for that matter. If your saying he's just vain by using the whole he had to try to stop Xykon just because he's evil, then what about the threat that faces those near to him.

Third, just because we see that Xykon is "that" powerful, doesn't mean that Roy does. Oh, and he doesn't go into battle, any battle for that matter, not even realizing in the slightest that he could very well die then, it would be abnormal to think yourself unfaze-able just because your high level. Heck, I thought he'd critical miss the initial jump towards the flying dragon and land safely on it move. To do what is necessary, despite the greatest risks, would be both brave and in the right circumstances good. Roy is smart no doubt about it, but smart people take risks too in times of dire consequences.

All in all, only the next strips would definitively decide whether my opinions here or Roy's actions would be proven right or wrong. It would be rude to tell people "You should've done this!!!" when you really can't fully understand or imagine the situation they were in when they did their actions. It kinda contradicts what I said about the Miko thing, but I'll stick to every word on this post. Well, until someone proves me otherwise.

[GoC]

Dude, he would ahve been droped behind the enemy lines, hence keeping Roy from dong any thing
Not a Booty Talismam.


Sure roy knows that Xykon was level 14, but how many spells could he have? Roy doesn't know, and considering he has a +5 two handed sword wtih special damage against undead, quite frankly he could make a difference, though possible at the cost of his own life
Even a moderately optimised 14 level lich can beat a 13 level fighter without breaking sweat.


Also, roy doesn't know that Xykon had already cast overland flight, hence it would be quite possible that Xykon would use area spells, for fear of falling from his dragon and taking damage and/or not being able to get to the battle in time. I mean, roy hit him about 7 times, and he used up four spells already, two of them fingers of death and on metor swarm, plus he is using that overland flight and is minis a dragon zombie
There are many spells that could be used to get away and Xykon is bound to have at least one of them. Also he doesn't have to use area spells, if Roy hadn't gotten lucky on his saves...


Also, screw it if she is having doubts about her evil actions, she is still a very dangours threat and lost the chance of redeemption
And your evidence is...?


Anyways, she is very dangerous, highly unstable, armed, and also guilty of muder. It is Roy's duty to subdue her. Not doing so would be an endangerment to everyone around her, as HInjo proved.
Remind you of anyone who Roy's been traveling with for quite a while?


She had the chance to surrender, giving her more would be going above and beyond LG
Read the comic again and you'll realise Roy gave her no such chance.


If Miko can get away with killing those bandits, Roy gets away with attackin her, more so because she is a paladin
from,
EE

IIRC the bandits attacked first and definitely didn't look like they where having doubts.
Also, saying that what Roy did wasn't bad because Miko also did it strikes me as rather strange.

Zynex: Could you compress that post? It's a bit long.

[Kreistor]

Read the comic again and you'll realise Roy gave her no such chance.

Hinjo gave her that chance, proving that ROy's conclusion that Miko was off-her-rocker was correct in the first place. Roy has tried negotiating with Miko in the past, only for her to rebuff his efforts. If someone has already proven unwilling to talk, then there is no reason whatsoever to give her that chance again.

(Reference: Miko's attempt to Smite Evil against a prone and unarmed Roy, where Roy is attempting to reason with her. And Miko's demand that the OotS is acting on the behalf of evil moments before she murders Shojo.)

Roy knows reason fails with Miko, so no, he is not obligated to try it on her.

[Kreistor]

Third, just because we see that Xykon is "that" powerful, doesn't mean that Roy does.

In fact, Roy has killed Xykon before! Roy has every reason to think that he can kill Xykon a second time.

[Moral Wiz]

Hinjo's failure to talk Miko down is irrelivant, as by that point, roy had alredy got her mad. Adreniline and all that. And Miko had never before sunk to the floor in obvious confusion. She was always the strongarm type. I see that as a prety obvious indecation she could be talked down, as she was obviously confused and didn't even have her sword drawn.

[Demented]

She did have her sword drawn. <_<


Remind you of anyone who Roy's been traveling with for quite a while?

Roy, in fact the entire OOTS, subdues him on a regular basis. :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

Not a Booty Talismam.


If he didn't think about it when he was falling to his death, i don't think he would when in the middle of combat.


Even a moderately optimised 14 level lich can beat a 13 level fighter without breaking sweat.
Funny you say that, it didn't work last time


There are many spells that could be used to get away and Xykon is bound to have at least one of them. Also he doesn't have to use area spells, if Roy hadn't gotten lucky on his saves...
But ROy didn't know that. hell, why didn't Xykon just do it in the first place. Roy figures if Xykon is willing to use diplomicy, then he must be up to something.
Also, Xykon is flying on the Dragon. Hints that he does'nt have a second flying spell. Turns out that wasn't true, but hey, how could Roy know that.


And your evidence is...?
You don't pick up fast do you?
1. She is very powerful, having defeated OOTS twice (granted not in the most fair situation, but still)
2. She is extremlly unstable, i don't think i need to back that up
3. She murdered an innocent, unarmed old guy, respond with punishment. She was punished for her actions, with Roy handing it out, and also putting her down. She is far to dangerous to be allowed any lee way


Remind you of anyone who Roy's been traveling with for quite a while?
Except Roy can control Belkar, and can't control Belkar.


Read the comic again and you'll realise Roy gave her no such chance.
Read the comic two before, she was give quite a few chances to stop, from Roy, Hinjo, Shojo, and even a snide remark from Belkar



IIRC the bandits attacked first and definitely didn't look like they where having doubts.
Also, saying that what Roy did wasn't bad because Miko also did it strikes me as rather strange.
you missed the point
Miko is justfied in killing the Bandits. Not the nicest thing to do, nor the most LG approach, but still good.
They attacked her, and so she killed them.
In the same turn, MIko attacked Shojo, Roy took her out
from,
EE

[jindra34]

Except Roy can control Belkar, and can't control Miko.


you may have made a mistake... the second one probably was intended this way not the original way...

[Demented]

Quite likely. Not to say that his original statement wasn't true. =P

[jindra34]

Quite likely. Not to say that his original statement wasn't true. =P

His original statemnt was false by contradictory statements... he can and cannot control belkar is always false...

[Jade_Tarem]

Ok... the constant assertion "14th level lich" is starting to bug me.

Xykon casted Meteor Swarm, folks, and he didn't use a scroll.

Since Xykon is a sorcerer, that's level 18, at least.

By Xykon's own statement, he is 7 levels higher than Roy, and Roy is level 13.

That puts him at level 20.

Add in the Lich modifier, and we get ECL 24. Not 14. Twenty. Four.

[jindra34]

Ok... the constant assertion "14th level lich" is starting to bug me.

Xykon casted Meteor Swarm, folks, and he didn't use a scroll.

That's level 18, at least.

By Xykon's own statement, he is 7 levels higher than Roy, and Roy is level 13.

That puts him at level 20.

Add in the Lich modifier, and we get ECL 24. Not 14. Twenty. Four.WOw is it that irratating to you to have people use it like what 4 times...

[PaladinFreak]

Oh, by the way, by that standard, Xykon is Equivilent Character Level 24. This is not the same as his challenge rating. It only effects the amount of XP required to gain a level. That means, to gain a level, he needs the amount of XP required for level 25, or 300,000.

He is still only Challenge Rating 22.

[jindra34]

Oh, by the way, by that standard, Xykon is Equivilent Character Level 24. This is not the same as his challenge rating. It only effects the amount of XP required to gain a level. That means, to gain a level, he needs the amount of XP required for level 25, or 300,000.

He is still only Challenge Rating 22.

WHich is still well out of Roy's League...

[EvilElitest]

WHich is still well out of Roy's League...

But roy didn't know that, Xykon's word is not to be taken at face value

For all we know, he could only be five levels higher, nasty, but not impossible (though it proved so in this case)

We can only judge Xykon on waht we know, because teh guy is so untrustworthy
from,
EE

[Merlin the Tuna]

2.
Roy makes snide comments to Elan therefore he is a cold hearted jerk.
Reply: Firstly Elan never really shows any sign of being hurt by the snide comments..."Did you shoot at this man?"
"Yes, your Honor, but to be fair, I missed with most of them."
"Ah yes, quite right. You're free to go."

Yeah, that's shaky ground right there. And by "shaky ground," I mean you just walked off the cliff Wile E. Coyote-style and will fall as soon as you start looking around.

[CardinalFang]

I feel the need to weigh in on a specific morality/alignment issue which seems to pop up a lot in this thread. Some people seem to feel that being of a Good alignment automatically means you have to be nice. Personally, I think that's a very illogical assumption. Examine, for instance, Roy's actions in the throne room with Miko. Miko completely ignored any rational conversation. Ignored Hinjo's attempts to be reasonable. Ignored Shojo, her sworn liege. Ignored the obvious displeasure of her own deities. She had just killed the ruler of a city in imminent danger of attack. Roy was certainly not being Neutral or Evil in attacking her (especially after Hinjo's attempt at reason), and nor was he ininsulting her (which is not only a very human thing to do...Good doesn't mean you don't have feelings and frustrations, but was also probably at least in part a deliberate tactic to anger her and keep her off balance). It was, however, not nice. But nice does not mean Good, and Good does not mean nice.

Again, with Miko and the bandits: they were threatening her. She offered to talk to them peacefully. She cut their bonds. She behaved in a very textbook Good fashion. But she wasn't nice (well, she was never nice, but that's not the issue). A nice person would have tried reason and kindness even more than Miko's minor attempts at rational discussion and peaceful negotiation. But Miko wasn't un-Good...just not a nice person.

Look at someone like a judge, in real life: every day they make tough decisions base on (mostly) good laws. These decisions aren't always nice, though. I used to proofread court cases for a living, and some of these cases would tear at your heartstrings: a man was denied federal loan repayment relief because, while he made almost no money, he actually had two degrees, and could have gotten a better job. When reading it, you WANTED to give him, his wife, and their children (I think they had 6 or 7, all young-ish) all the money the government could spare...but you can't do that. You'd be taking it away from other people who need it, and other parts of the government which require financing. It's definitely Lawful, and I would say even Good (not the individual good, but certainly the greater good)...but it's not nice. The nice thing to do would be to give out free money to everyone who needed it. But who would pay for that?

So I think people who say that a character isn't Good are sometimes blinded by the fact that the person isn't nice...but Good doesn't mean being a saint, or even just a really friendly person. Just that you do Good things. In fact (and this is going to stir up some people for sure), it could even be argued that in a way, Belkar is shifting towards Good, albeit unknowingly, simply because he is helping to save innocent lives. He's doing it for the wrong reasons, and he doesn't really realize that's what he's spending his time doing, but he IS doing it.

[Lord]

"Did you shoot at this man?"
"Yes, your Honor, but to be fair, I missed with most of them."
"Ah yes, quite right. You're free to go."

Yeah, that's shaky ground right there. And by "shaky ground," I mean you just walked off the cliff Wile E. Coyote-style and will fall as soon as you start looking around.

I see you didn't mention the rest of my post.

[melekashiro]

It works!
http://www.deathnoteonline.com/page3348

[EvilElitest]

It works!
http://www.deathnoteonline.com/page3348

Everybody loves death note


"Did you shoot at this man?"
"Yes, your Honor, but to be fair, I missed with most of them."
"Ah yes, quite right. You're free to go."
Last time i checked, snide remarks were not fatal. Let me know though
Belkar your argument makes sense
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

It will take Xykon an hour or so to get to the thrown room. It would take Roy less time to gather the rest of the OotS and join the highest level paladins and spellcasters.

Where are you getting that 1-hour figure?


Roy knew he was at least a 14th level lich (finger of death).
And when he realised that his attacks weren't going to kill Xykon in time he should have stopped and negotiated.

Roy knew he had defeated Xykon once before without even using his weapon. And how do you think it would have gone over had Roy negotiated? Remember Roy's lecture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) to Daimyo Kubota? Roy doesn't negotiate with liches, nor should he.

1. Xykon's terms were unacceptable. Essentially, they amount to: "I'm way more powerful than you. Come back later and I'll let you live for now." That's just not in the cards. Roy is a hero. As such, he doesn't do what best serves his own personal safety. He does what's right.

2. Roy had no reason to trust Xykon to uphold his end of any bargain they made. Xykon would betray Roy without thinking twice, and Roy knew this. Better to take his chances with his uber-enchanted sword than take his chances trusting Xykon.

[GoC]

*groan*


If he didn't think about it when he was falling to his death, i don't think he would when in the middle of combat.[quote]
I was talking about when he would be dropped off by Xykon just outside the castle walls and you know it.

[quote]Funny you say that, it didn't work last time
There's no magical item of that power anywhere near here.


But ROy didn't know that. hell, why didn't Xykon just do it in the first place. Roy figures if Xykon is willing to use diplomicy, then he must be up to something.
Also, Xykon is flying on the Dragon. Hints that he does'nt have a second flying spell. Turns out that wasn't true, but hey, how could Roy know that.
I'd think it would be obvious.


]You don't pick up fast do you?
1. She is very powerful, having defeated OOTS twice (granted not in the most fair situation, but still)
2. She is extremlly unstable, i don't think i need to back that up
3. She murdered an innocent, unarmed old guy, respond with punishment. She was punished for her actions, with Roy handing it out, and also putting her down. She is far to dangerous to be allowed any lee way
You are well aware I was refering to this:

lost the chance of redeemption


Read the comic two before, she was give quite a few chances to stop, from Roy, Hinjo, Shojo, and even a snide remark from Belkar
Those were before she started having doubts.


you missed the point
Miko is justfied in killing the Bandits. Not the nicest thing to do, nor the most LG approach, but still good.
They attacked her, and so she killed them.
In the same turn, MIko attacked Shojo, Roy took her out
from,
EE

Would you like to address my point instead of wasting bandwidth?

Gitman:
A. You're right, he didn't use his weapon. He used an INCREDIBLY powerful death_no_save gate.
B. Staying when the odds are overwhelming isn't "right" it's stupid.
C. There is no "deal". Xykon is essentialy saying "I'll let you go because I want some more xp later".

Please get up to date on the current state of the discussion before posting.

CardinalFang: Smaller. Paragraphs. PLEASE.

[EvilElitest]

There's no magical item of that power anywhere near here.
1. You quoted made a mistake in quoting
2. Xykon didn't cast metor swarm that time ether
3. Roy's sword, pretty close


I'd think it would be obvious.
Not really. I ask you, why fly a dragon when you can fly. Hell, the dragon gave Xykon away earlier. Considering Xykon didn't leave his dragon earlier, it stands to reason he would presume that he can't fly.


You are well aware I was refering to this:



Those were before she started having doubts.
Saying "I don't understand" does not clear you, my point of her danger and her unstable abilty still stands.



Would you like to address my point instead of wasting bandwidth?
I just did, stop evading mine


Gitman:
A. You're right, he didn't use his weapon. He used an INCREDIBLY powerful death_no_save gate.
He was also lower level, not using any weapon at all (compared to a plus 5 greatsword that does extra damage to undead), their were lots of other enemies, and Xykon was not stuck on a dragon.


B. Staying when the odds are overwhelming isn't "right" it's stupid.
Ah, so leaving your friends to die is "Right". Ah, cowardness before valor, ok i'll keep that mind in case i join the miltary.


C. There is no "deal". Xykon is essentialy saying "I'll let you go because I want some more xp later".
And the answer is "Screw you, i'm not allowing to destroy AC, and i'm risking my life to keep you out of the battle"
Xykon says his three points, and Roy was only aware of number two.

Please get up to date on the current state of the discussion before posting.
Funny, you mention these strange updates, mind you know, explaining WTF your talking about?
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

Ah, so leaving your friends to die is "Right". Ah, cowardness before valor, ok i'll keep that mind in case i join the miltary.

QFT. As a member of the U.S. Armed Forces myself, let me quote the Code of Conduct, Article II:

"I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist."

Not that Roy is bound by the U.S. Military's Code of Conduct, but it still applies. Xykon's terms amount to a surrender. As I've said, it just isn't an option for a Good character, and certainly not a Lawful Good one. By GoC's definition, it was stupid for Leonidas to stay at Thermopylae.


Funny, you mention these strange updates, mind you know, explaining WTF your talking about?
from,
EE

Thanks, EE. Couldn't have said it better myself. :smallcool:

[CardinalFang]

GoC, none of those paragraphs is that large. They don't get any easier to read just because I stick pointless spaces in them, and break up individual ideas. But thank you for disagreeing with my formatting instead of responding to any of the points I made. I'll put in a summary for those people who don't feel like reading too much:

"Good does not mean nice. Nice does not mean good. Please do not confuse the two when deciding if people are being Good or not. Xykon was technically nice to allow Roy a chance to escape, but he wasn't Good. Roy was not nice to insult Miko...that doesn't mean he wasn't Good, though."

[EvilElitest]

QFT. As a member of the U.S. Armed Forces myself, let me quote the Code of Conduct, Article II:

"I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist."

Not that Roy is bound by the U.S. Military's Code of Conduct, but it still applies. Xykon's terms amount to a surrender. As I've said, it just isn't an option for a Good character, and certainly not a Lawful Good one. By GoC's definition, it was stupid for Leonidas to stay at Thermopylae.



Thanks, EE. Couldn't have said it better myself. :smallcool:

Thank you very much
The smart thing to do would be not fight to begine with, but that is cowardly and selfish
Just a minor nitpick, Leonidas only acted as rear guard and didn't hold the pass entirlly by himself, but still an act of bravery none the less
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

Just a minor nitpick, Leonidas only acted as rear guard and didn't hold the pass entirlly by himself, but still an act of bravery none the less
from,
EE

Oh, I know, I just used him as an example because he was the commander of the Spartans, and he was the one who made that decision. Made more sense to compare Roy to one guy than to 300.

EDIT: I think we both agree on this, though: The initial decision is a moral one: "What is my objective?" Roy would answer it, "To protect the innocent and end evil". Whether an action is smart or stupid can only be judged by how well it accomplishes this goal. Bargaining with Xykon on his terms, allowing him to gain control of the gate and bring untold suffering to the world while Roy gains levels, would be stupid, because it would actually be counterproductive to that goal. What Roy did was the smart thing as well as the brave thing.

[cucchulainnn]

Since when is cowardice a trait of the good? I was raised to believe that cowardice is a hall mark of evil.

[jindra34]

Since when is cowardice a trait of the good? I was raised to believe that cowardice is a hall mark of evil.

NO, No, no, cowardice is a trait of neither... caution is a good trait in both...

[EvilElitest]

Oh, I know, I just used him as an example because he was the commander of the Spartans, and he was the one who made that decision. Made more sense to compare Roy to one guy than to 300.

EDIT: I think we both agree on this, though: The initial decision is a moral one: "What is my objective?" Roy would answer it, "To protect the innocent and end evil". Whether an action is smart or stupid can only be judged by how well it accomplishes this goal. Bargaining with Xykon on his terms, allowing him to gain control of the gate and bring untold suffering to the world while Roy gains levels, would be stupid, because it would actually be counterproductive to that goal. What Roy did was the smart thing as well as the brave thing.

1. Yeah, thats a pretty good comparasion
2. I agree, because Xykon would first wipe out AC then take control of the Gate, thus murdering countless innocents and good people, not good. Well said


NO, No, no, cowardice is a trait of neither... caution is a good trait in both...
Difference between cowardice and caution. Caution is trying to acomplish your goals in a effetive manner, hence Roy having V cast sphere of invisbilty to avoid the goblins is using caution, while Jake Spoon (lonesome dove) not defending the innocent farmers being killed by the bandits, dispite the fact it would most likely lead to his death is cowardice. Being cowardly is not standing up for your beliefs or others when you can
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

NO, No, no, cowardice is a trait of neither... caution is a good trait in both...

I dunno, I tend to agree with cucchulainnn on this one. Mind you, fear and cowardice are not the same thing.

EDIT: For example, bullies are generally cowards, because they only pick fights they know they'll win.

[EvilElitest]

I dunno, I tend to agree with cucchulainnn on this one. Mind you, fear and cowardice are not the same thing.

EDIT: For example, bullies are generally cowards, because they only pick fights they know they'll win.

Nice example

If see a dude with a machine gun, i have a small rock, do i attack? No, caution. The dude starts shooting at babies for not reason. I throw my rock and charge. I might kill him in both situations, but unlikly. But i'm willing to take the risk in the second situation than the first
from,
EE

[cucchulainnn]

I just watched “high noon” and the “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valanc” over the weekend. Both of these movies are allegories of courage. In both movies the main charters where afraid of over whelming odds and they stayed to do the right thing. In high noon the marshal who locked up a man killer. when the man he locked up came for revenge the town left him out to die. In the end he won and turned in disgust and left the town. In the other the main charter was not even in the same leage as the protagonist and still stayed to fight even thoe it spelled his death, because it was the right thing to do.

I suggest you watch each to learn about courage.

I my self an afraid of heights and am on the list for new york city fire fighters. My father flew a B-17 during world war two during the early part of the war when 3 out of 4 bombers got shot down. There are two types of men in the world those who face their fears and those who hide from them. I’ve always felt that you should never feel shame about being afraid of something but you should I you’re not willing to face it.

[EvilElitest]

I just watched “high noon” and the “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valanc” over the weekend. Both of these movies are allegories of courage. In both movies the main charters where afraid of over whelming odds and they stayed to do the right thing. In high noon the marshal who locked up a man killer. when the man he locked up came for revenge the town left him out to die. In the end he won and turned in disgust and left the town. In the other the main charter was not even in the same leage as the protagonist and still stayed to fight even thoe it spelled his death, because it was the right thing to do.

I suggest you watch each to learn about courage.

I my self an afraid of heights and am on the list for new york city fire fighters. My father flew a B-17 during world war two during the early part of the war when 3 out of 4 bombers got shot down. There are two types of men in the world those who face their fears and those who hide from them. I’ve always felt that you should never feel shame about being afraid of something but you should I you’re not willing to face it.


Just to expand on that, i to am afraid of heights and so I avoid going onto hieghts when i can. That is not cowardly, but if innocent lives rely on it? If I try to face my fears an fail, then i am excused of just no being good enough, but if i don't even try i am being cowardly
from,
EE

[Faramir]

Add one more item in Roy's defense:

He didn't know how much extra damage the green energy effect would do. Xykon is the first undead he's used it on. For all he knew, there was a chance that a few blows would be enough to take Xykon out. Maybe unlikely, but it was a chance he was willing to take since it had the possibility of saving many lives that would otherwise be lost.

[EvilElitest]

Add one more item in Roy's defense:

He didn't know how much extra damage the green energy effect would do. Xykon is the first undead he's used it on. For all he knew, there was a chance that a few blows would be enough to take Xykon out. Maybe unlikely, but it was a chance he was willing to take since it had the possibility of saving many lives that would otherwise be lost.

Now that you mention it, you ahve a good point, he took of the dragon's head
from,
EE

[cucchulainnn]

Just to expand on that, i to am afraid of heights and so I avoid going onto hieghts when i can. That is not cowardly, but if innocent lives rely on it? If I try to face my fears an fail, then i am excused of just no being good enough, but if i don't even try i am being cowardly
from,
EE

believe me, i get nervous looking down off the sidewalk curb. to know if i could face it a few years ago i took a job window washing in Manhattan. of course i lied claiming not to be afraid of heights. the first week i did it i peed my pants almost ever time i went out on the ledge. the only saving grace was that the window washing i was always wet so no one what was going on. now i know that no matter how much something frightens me it will not cripple me.

because that was such an important life lesson i would suggest every one face their fear. by the way that was the hardest thing i've ever done. by the way success is facing it nothing else.

courage dose not happen in a vacuum. if your not afraid of it then your not displaying bravery by facing it. every one is afraid of some thing. hell, genghis khan was afraid of dogs.

any one who claims to never be afraid of anything is either a fool or a lier.

[GoC]

I spent one hour typing an immense post only to have a power failure.:smallmad:
I hearby yield. Evilelitest is correct.

[Merlin the Tuna]

I see you didn't mention the rest of my post.Correctly implying that I either agree with or have no discernible feelings towards the rest of your post.
Last time i checked, snide remarks were not fatal. Let me know though You've missed the point by about as much as you possible could, EE. The original statement boils down to "Because Elan doesn't complain, Roy isn't a mean person for doing mean things." The analogy was used because it shows the same point in a more extreme situation, demonstrating the failings of the original concept. If you used the exact same scenario, it wouldn't be an analogy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Roy is a "coldhearted jerk." But the fact that Elan doesn't complain has no bearing on that judgement. When Roy does mean things, Roy is being mean, regardless of how anyone else reacts. Or, again drawing a parallel with a more extreme scenario... If a husband beats his wife, domestic abuse does not become wrong when she calls the police; it was wrong to begin with, and her reaction just now correctly reflects that.

[EvilElitest]

I spent one hour typing an immense post only to have a power failure.:smallmad:
I hearby yield. Evilelitest is correct.

Don't mess with my god powers, thank you very much. I control your power. Though it doesn't explain why my power failed as well


You've missed the point by about as much as you possible could, EE. The original statement boils down to "Because Elan doesn't complain, Roy isn't a mean person for doing mean things." The analogy was used because it shows the same point in a more extreme situation, demonstrating the failings of the original concept. If you used the exact same scenario, it wouldn't be an analogy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Roy is a "coldhearted jerk." But the fact that Elan doesn't complain has no bearing on that judgement. When Roy does mean things, Roy is being mean, regardless of how anyone else reacts. Or, again drawing a parallel with a more extreme scenario... If a husband beats his wife, domestic abuse does not become wrong when she calls the police; it was wrong to begin with, and her reaction just now correctly reflects that.
1. Didn't miss the point, you used a bad metaphor thats all. It is not the same anology, because insults rely on comfort levels, not on fatilities.
2. Quite franky, considering how unspeakable stuipid Elan is, i really think Roy is doing what is best. He yells at Elan when Elan does stupid stuff, and he does that allllllllllll the time. Hell, Roy is almost keeping him under control
3. Comfort level, insults, unlike bullet wounds, vary in effect. Depending on somebodies comfort level, depends on how they are effected. elan has never complained, and so it is safe to presume he is fine with Roy's insults.
4. What are these cruel actions you speak off? Apart from leaving him to the bandits, and he took that back, Roy has commited no cruel actions to Elan, unlike V. Elan on the other hand did paint all over Roy
5. Use examples with bearing please, how does roy even compare to domestic abuse.
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

3. Comfort level, insults, unlike bullet wounds, vary in effect. Depending on somebodies comfort level, depends on how they are effected. elan has never complained, and so it is safe to presume he is fine with Roy's insults.

To be fair, Merlin did admit it was an extreme example. He was using hyperbole (a technique of deliberate exaggeration) to illustrate his point that it's the intent, more than the consequences, that determines whether an action is good or evil, cruel or kind. Using an in-universe example to illustrate the same point: Roy and Belkar ultimately agree on what to do with Samantha and her father, but for completely different reasons.

To look at it another way, if I accidentally step on someone's foot in the subway and injure them, I didn't do anything wrong. It was an accident. But if I intentionally try to stomp on their foot, even if I miss, what I did was wrong. The intent was innocent in the first scenario, even though the consequences were worse. So, if Roy insults Elan, and Elan is too stupid to be offended, it doesn't take away from the fact that Roy insulted Elan.

[EvilElitest]

To be fair, Merlin did admit it was an extreme example. He was using hyperbole (a technique of deliberate exaggeration) to illustrate his point that it's the intent, more than the consequences, that determines whether an action is good or evil, cruel or kind. Using an in-universe example to illustrate the same point: Roy and Belkar ultimately agree on what to do with Samantha and her father, but for completely different reasons.

To look at it another way, if I accidentally step on someone's foot in the subway and injure them, I didn't do anything wrong. It was an accident. But if I intentionally try to stomp on their foot, even if I miss, what I did was wrong. The intent was innocent in the first scenario, even though the consequences were worse. So, if Roy insults Elan, and Elan is too stupid to be offended, it doesn't take away from the fact that Roy insulted Elan.

what if you step on the guys foot, and that keeps him from jumping off a bridge? Really, most of Roy's insults are for Elan's benafit, i have yet to see a really nasty Elan insult on Roy's part.
from,
EE

[CardinalFang]

I'm kind of on both sides of the fence about this whole insulting issue, but the way I see it is this: Elan and Roy are both grown men, to a greater or lesser extent. A lot of grown men are uncomfortable with hugging each other and going "I love you, man" (at least before a few beers), so they show their friendship by trading insults. Elan seems to view the insults as Roy's way of showing he cares without actually having to say so in as many words, and from Roy's performance with the arrows, it's pretty clear that he feels the same way.

[EvilElitest]

I'm kind of on both sides of the fence about this whole insulting issue, but the way I see it is this: Elan and Roy are both grown men, to a greater or lesser extent. A lot of grown men are uncomfortable with hugging each other and going "I love you, man" (at least before a few beers), so they show their friendship by trading insults. Elan seems to view the insults as Roy's way of showing he cares without actually having to say so in as many words, and from Roy's performance with the arrows, it's pretty clear that he feels the same way.

I wouldn't count Elan as a grown man, he seems to be more like a child to me
Anyways, Roy seems to insult Elan, not out of affection, more out of a sense of
"WTF" and annoyence. Not that he isn't right
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

what if you step on the guys foot, and that keeps him from jumping off a bridge? Really, most of Roy's insults are for Elan's benafit, i have yet to see a really nasty Elan insult on Roy's part.
from,
EE

True, but that's a separate issue. Roy really is like a big brother to Elan. Having two little sisters myself, I can empathize greatly with him. Though (and maybe because) my sisters are far more intelligent than Elan, they can be just as obnoxious (and they're around Elan's age). However, much like Roy with Elan, I'd defend them to the death if it came down to it. I think a lot of Roy's frustration stems from the fact that even though Elan annoys him, Roy really cares for him. Hence his circumstance bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) to fighting Nale.

EDIT:

I'm kind of on both sides of the fence about this whole insulting issue, but the way I see it is this: Elan and Roy are both grown men, to a greater or lesser extent. A lot of grown men are uncomfortable with hugging each other and going "I love you, man" (at least before a few beers), so they show their friendship by trading insults. Elan seems to view the insults as Roy's way of showing he cares without actually having to say so in as many words, and from Roy's performance with the arrows, it's pretty clear that he feels the same way.

That's actually a pretty good interpretation. Heck, when I was in high school, sometimes guys would show affection by punching each other.

[Zynex]

That's exactly what I wanted to post about, thank you for elaborating that point quite effectively Gitman00.

Yep, mostly all kins find their other kinfolk rather annoying. Like the saying goes, familiarity breeds contempt. However, once the need arises, instinct almost always points to defend such kin in times of jeopardy.

[EvilElitest]

True, but that's a separate issue. Roy really is like a big brother to Elan. Having two little sisters myself, I can empathize greatly with him. Though (and maybe because) my sisters are far more intelligent than Elan, they can be just as obnoxious (and they're around Elan's age). However, much like Roy with Elan, I'd defend them to the death if it came down to it. I think a lot of Roy's frustration stems from the fact that even though Elan annoys him, Roy really cares for him. Hence his circumstance bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) to fighting Nale.

I don't think that proves anything, except Roy wanted to beat the crap out of Elan. Most of roy's insults are justified.

EDIT:



That's actually a pretty good interpretation. Heck, when I was in high school, sometimes guys would show affection by punching each other.
Your argument works with Elan insulting/playing pranks on Roy, but not so much visa versa
from,
EE

[Gitman00]

I don't think that proves anything, except Roy wanted to beat the crap out of Elan. Most of roy's insults are justified.

Well, it proves that even though Roy wanted to beat the crap out of Elan, he didn't. I see it as a pretty solid piece of evidence that Roy has a soft spot in his heart for Elan, under his gruff exterior. And for the record, I agree that Roy's unkind comments are usually justified; Elan's antics cause Roy (and the rest of the party) all kinds of trouble, well-meaning or not.

[Twilight Jack]

Not to get psychoanalytic here, but it might also be noted that Roy's relationship with his own father is largely one of frustration and faded insults. It's pretty obvious that Roy is uncomfortable with anything resembling honest emotional vulnerability. He's standoffish, defensive, or prickly under the best of circumstances. Looking at his relationship with both his father and his sister, I think it can be stated with some certainty that honest affection is not something of which Roy enjoyed an abundance in childhood.

Is it any wonder that he responds to it with discomfort, sarcasm, and anger now, especially from Elan? Roy is competent, intelligent, and driven; he's also stressed out, burdened by his "duties", and generally unhappy most of the time. Let us contrast this with Elan, who possesses a blistering level of stupidity and incompetence; he is, on the other hand, uncomplicated and happy. Unlike Roy, he has no problems expressing his heart, no problem making himself vulnerable to others. Worst of all for Roy, Elan seems to coast through his own life effortlessly. Not only does Elan seem to believe that the world owes him a living, but the world consistently delivers.

Now, on top of all of that, Elan demonstrates a level of (platonic) affection for Roy that Roy has no means to process. Having been deprived of this affection by his own family, Roy doesn't deal well with having his need for it met by someone from whom he didn't have to "earn it." Unlike Roy's father, Elan gives affection freely, which then calls into question all the things Roy has done to earn dad's approval. Sure, Roy rebelled by becoming a fighter, but he still has labored all his life to have that choice respected by his father. Love has always been a conditional thing in Roy's life, and the source of Roy's greatest stress and burden. He's been taught that he has to be good enough to deserve being loved. Elan's unconditional display of it might mean that everything Roy has ever put himself through was unnecessary. On top of all of that, the love Elan gives out is returned to him by almost everyone (even Belkar, in his way; though not Nale. Nale not love not nale). Elan hasn't earned the approval he gets; he's just accepted for who he is. Worse yet, even Roy can't help feeling that tug, which calls his own quest for approval further into question.

Roy cares deeply for Elan, in spite of himself (his reprehensible behavior during the bandit episode notwithstanding). He just doesn't know how to reconcile that caring with his own need to earn a love that isn't freely given. Hell, he doesn't know what to do with it when he finally has it, which is why he clams up and lashes out.

Edit: He also stutters and hedges.

[Zynex]

A much more complex and detailed analysis, well said Twilight. Although, you missed out stutters and hedges on Roy's arsenal of defense mechanisms, but that's just nitpicking now.

[EvilElitest]

Well, it proves that even though Roy wanted to beat the crap out of Elan, he didn't. I see it as a pretty solid piece of evidence that Roy has a soft spot in his heart for Elan, under his gruff exterior. And for the record, I agree that Roy's unkind comments are usually justified; Elan's antics cause Roy (and the rest of the party) all kinds of trouble, well-meaning or not.

Or because Roy is good

Everybody speaks of this brotherly effection of Roy, and while i think roy is a good person, i don't think he returns Elan affection. I think he doesn't like Elan, as a person, as he is a complete fool. He rather likes him as a guy, and he will protect him, but i think that is more out of a sense of duty

Roy's home life was also very much on the point of you have to earn your due, those who can't live up to standards are insulted

Elan doesn't live up to standards, but he barely has any to begine with
Roy does have standards, those as a leader, a thinker, and as a LG person, and that includes protecting Elan
from,
EE

[TheNifty]

I think a lot of the hate directed towards Roy is due to his sarcastic tone to Elan, probably the forum's favorite character.

Think about it though; Elan's antics are amusing to read about, but if you had to deal with that kinda crap on a day-to-day basis, you'd probably wish a painful death upon him at least twice an hour.

I know if he and I were in an adventuring party together, the first time he tried the whole "bluff-bluff-the-ogre" routine, resulting in an unnecessary fight and possible death, I'd probably stab him in the kidney. :belkar:

[Demented]

Roy's home life was also very much on the point of you have to earn your due, those who can't live up to standards are insulted

It only ever applied to Roy. Look at Julia.

[CardinalFang]

It only ever applied to Roy. Look at Julia.
Yes, but SHE went to Wizard school.

[Demented]

Went? She's still there! Stinkin' underachiever.

[jindra34]

Went? She's still there! Stinkin' underachiever.

She's 16 Roy was not in school yet at that point (i think) thus she is doing Better than Roy.
*runs away quickly*

[Demented]

Don't be so certain. It's possible that Roy not only was in Fighter school by then, but it's also likely he had to pay for it himself.

On the other hand, fighter school is probably cheaper.
After all, it's not like you learn anything useful there.... (Thwack, thwack!)

[jindra34]

Don't be so certain. It's possible that Roy not only was in Fighter school by then, but it's also likely he had to pay for it himself.

On the other hand, fighter school is probably cheaper.
After all, it's not like you learn anything useful there.... (Thwack, thwack!)

Hey they teach tactics and leadership and some degree of common cutrasy and maybe a bit of the arts, such as dancing and courtship and what not... it is not all useless...

[Geilan]

Yeah, he got an MBA..

[Demented]

Hey they teach tactics and leadership and some degree of common cutrasy and maybe a bit of the arts, such as dancing and courtship and what not... it is not all useless...

Well, given that it's a Fighter school that offers goat herding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), I suppose that's not out of the question.

[Shurz]

A lovely thread :smallsmile: So who is Roy and could he have avoided his fate? Let me regurgitate :smalltongue:
A warrior who is driven to avenge his father and always doing his his duty. A group leader caring for a group of very excentric individuals and ready to shield them from harm no matter the cost. This inspite of them doing their best to drive him insane :smallwink: and getting into trouble like clockwork.
Roy treats them like family, no matter what they do he will still be there for them. In all families there are minor conflicts now and then, including teasing of siblings, and this excentric family of different races and classes is no different - (reminds me of the Brewster family in the movie Arsenic and Old Lace).

Now, Roy's path was predetermined once the pre-battle discussion set a task for OOTS to deal with Zykon. Sure, there was anger and revenge directing Roy's actions, but also the knowledge of having the best weapon to attack Zykon with.
The fake Zykons served their purpose by splitting the OOTS into smaller groups in the battle and sealed his fate. Unless one of his group members nearby would have been in dire danger by something else, there wouldn't have been a herd of wild horses that could have prevented Roy from going after Zykon. Belkar knew Roy's character flaws and with that knowledge won a bet :smallbiggrin:

[Ariko]

erm..Roy is not avenging his father, his father died of old age. Eugene swore a blood oath to avenge his mentor, which compelled Roy to continue his father's quest upon Eugene's death.

[JazzManJim]

Meh.

Roy was still a jerk.

[Idless]

Though, I do so enjoy Xykon's philosophy on life

you mean to say... unlife?

me too :D

I generally like OotS

Idless

[Mordokai]

It only ever applied to Roy. Look at Julia.

Guess I failed to notice that. Would you mind pointing it out for me?

[EvilElitest]

Meh.

Roy was still a jerk.

Depends on your defination. I think he is not a jerk, because he is not that selfish and works to protect his men. he is a bit of a smart ass, no argument there
from,
EE

[Demented]

Guess I failed to notice that. Would you mind pointing it out for me?

Just look at her character. She's the "good child".