Ur-Priests and Versatile Spellcaster

[AvatarVecna]

Let's suppose you got the Versatile Spellcaster feat into an Ur-Priest build. Can you use it with your Ur-Priest casting?

[Troacctid]

Yes, it works for any class that has spell slots. However, note that it only allows you to use two spell slots to cast a spell one level higher--it doesn't override any other rules of spellcasting or spell preparation. So you can still only cast Ur-Priest spells out of Ur-Priest slots, and they must be prepared.

[AvatarVecna]

So just to clarify: a level 5 Ur-Priest could use two level 5 spell slots to prepare a level 6 spell (or a level 5 spell with Heighten Spell)? Or can the sacrifice only be done at the time of the casting, and that doesn't work?

[Troacctid]

It depends on whether you interpret Ur-Priests as "knowing" their entire class spell list, even for spell levels they don't have access to. I can't find any rules support for that interpretation, but I suppose I also can't find any rules support for the notion that they even "know" spells in the first place, so maybe someone else has a citation.

In either case, assuming known spells aren't an issue, you'd make the choice when you prepare the spells; Versatile Spellcaster doesn't include any language that would override that.

[AvatarVecna]

Found something like that...


Spells per Day: An ur-priest gains the ability to cast a number of divine spells. To cast a spell, an ur-priest must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level, so an ur-priest with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Ur-priest bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + Wisdom modifier. When the table indicates that the ur-priest gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, such as 0 2nd-level spells at 2nd level, the ur-priest gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.

The ur-priest spell list is identical to the cleric spell list. An ur-priest has access to any spell on the list and prepares those spells as a cleric, except that he does not pray for spells, he just takes them. An ur-priest casts spells as a cleric does, except that unlike a cleric, he does not have the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells, nor does he have domain spells or associated domain granted powers. He does not have restrictions on spells with alignments. To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)

I think that would do it, right?

[Venger]

Let's suppose you got the Versatile Spellcaster feat into an Ur-Priest build. Can you use it with your Ur-Priest casting?

No. Ur-priest is a prepared caster.


Yes, it works for any class that has spell slots. However, note that it only allows you to use two spell slots to cast a spell one level higher--it doesn't override any other rules of spellcasting or spell preparation. So you can still only cast Ur-Priest spells out of Ur-Priest slots, and they must be prepared.

No it doesn't, it only works for spontaneous casters. Ur-priest can't cast spontaneously, even a little via cure/inflict. Are you counting siphon spell power as spontaneous casting?


It depends on whether you interpret Ur-Priests as "knowing" their entire class spell list, even for spell levels they don't have access to. I can't find any rules support for that interpretation, but I suppose I also can't find any rules support for the notion that they even "know" spells in the first place, so maybe someone else has a citation.

In either case, assuming known spells aren't an issue, you'd make the choice when you prepare the spells; Versatile Spellcaster doesn't include any language that would override that.

They function as clerics, who do not know every spell on their list like the prixe fixe casters.

[Troacctid]

No it doesn't, it only works for spontaneous casters. Ur-priest can't cast spontaneously, even a little via cure/inflict. Are you counting siphon spell power as spontaneous casting?

You'd have to be an Ur-Priest who is also a spontaneous caster, e.g. by multiclassing.

[Venger]

You'd have to be an Ur-Priest who is also a spontaneous caster, e.g. by multiclassing.

oh, I see. yeah, that works. sorry, I misunderstood.

[Crake]

Actually, it doesn't work, sorry to burst your bubble. Ur-Priests, just like clerics and druids, do not have "spells known". They have access to their entire spell list as normal, but they do not count as having "spells known" for any purpose, and thus cannot use versatile spellcaster to cast these spells.

Spells known are defined as


A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.

This was printed in the phb, so ideally casters that follow the conventions of sorcerers/wizards will also have spells known, such as favoured souls and archivists, despite being divine, not arcane. Note however that clerics and druids do not count has "knowning" their entire spell list, it is granted to them, they do not actually "know" any of the spells on the list.

[HaikenEdge]

Yes, it works for any class that has spell slots. However, note that it only allows you to use two spell slots to cast a spell one level higher--it doesn't override any other rules of spellcasting or spell preparation. So you can still only cast Ur-Priest spells out of Ur-Priest slots, and they must be prepared.

Ignoring the fact that Ur-Priests don't have a list of spells known, can you clarify the highlighted section for me? The following is a direct quote of the rules text for Versatile Spellcaster from dndtools:


You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

By a strict interpretation of RAW, wouldn't this allow the sorcerer, if the sorcerer in question also had bard levels, to be able to expend two 2nd-level sorcerer spell slots to cast a 3rd level bard spell, since it's one of any 3rd-level spell he knows?

[Crake]

By a strict interpretation of RAW, wouldn't this allow the sorcerer, if the sorcerer in question also had bard levels, to be able to expend two 2nd-level sorcerer spell slots to cast a 3rd level bard spell, since it's one of any 3rd-level spell he knows?

I think that is actually the generally accepted ruling on the boards. The most often means i see versatile spellcaster being used for in builds is on a Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus where all the spell levels go into wizard, leaving you with a mere 8 levels of beguiler casting at 15, so people get versatile spellcaster to use with their beguiler spellslots, allowing them to spontaneously cast any of their wizard spells in their spellbook up to 5th level.

[Troacctid]

By a strict interpretation of RAW, wouldn't this allow the sorcerer, if the sorcerer in question also had bard levels, to be able to expend two 2nd-level sorcerer spell slots to cast a 3rd level bard spell, since it's one of any 3rd-level spell he knows?

No. The default rule is that you can only use spell slots from a given class to cast spells from that same class. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't override that rule any more than the core Sorcerer rules do. (The Sorcerer class, as well as Favored Soul, Warmage, et al, all use the same "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time" language, without specifying a class. So if you read Versatile Spellcaster as allowing you to cast a spell from a different class, you'd also have to read it as being possible without Versatile Spellcaster.)

Relevant citation (RC p139):

A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.