Gishy Goodness

[Haluesen]

Hi board people! So, I'm working on a pretty typical gish character for a game that should go pretty long as a recurring NPC (sometimes helpful, sometimes against them), and I've looked at multiple sources. But I do still have a few things I'd like help with. For reference, the ideas for the build so far are Martial Class 3 or 4/Sorcerer 1 or 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 5 or 6. That's just long term, we're starting with level 8 here.

1. Which sounds better to go with, Crusader from ToB or a evil Paladin from UA? On one hand the Crusader gets maneuvers, survivability, and can fit a couple different alignments (though this character cannot be Good, story reasons). Meanwhile, the Paladin has Cha to saves, an aura of some sort, a wounding touch kinda thing, and detect good. Either can work well here and helps lead in to the other things.

2. Do I need additional levels of Sorcerer at all? I know that the other classes can cover for CL easily enough, and there shouldn't be anything the sorcerer itself has that I need to improve. Also debating an ACF, either Battle Sorcerer or Spell Shield (Dungeonscape).

3. Is Abjurant Champion really worth it when I can't use Luminous Armor with him? And are there other cool spells that a non-good AbCh could use?

4. And what can I use for those last levels? More of the martial class, another prestige class, some other needed base class? I like being able to plan ahead.

I don't want this guy to use heavy cheese, but he needs to be able to survive against/be helpful around the PC's, which aren't cheesy but are still pretty strong. Think high Tier 3/low Tier 2 for all of them. And if there are any other questions I should have asked there, let me know. :smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

First, an aside: where does the word "gish" come from?

1. Evil Paladin. If you want an initating gish you'll want to go into James Paul McCartney Jade Phoenix Mage. Cha to saves is awesome, probably better than a few non-scaling maneuvers.

2. You never should never have more levels of Sorcerer than are absolutely necessary. I'd start the build off with Sorcerer 2/Paladin 3 (or Sorcerer 2/Paladin 2/Other Full BAB Class 1) and then go into Spellsword, using Precocious Apprentice to qualify. Battle Sorcerer is worthless to you, since Sorcerer 2 has the same BAB and Battle Sorcerer 2, and the former has much better spellcasting. Spell Shield auto-scales with your casting and the familiar doesn't, so Spell Shield is an upgrade.

3. Are you the DM? It sounds like you're the DM. Congratulations, Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are now abjurations.

Seriously, make them abjurations. The class is so obviously designed with Mage Armor in mind (Abjurant Armor literally names Mage Armor as one of the spells it's supposed to be used with) that it's stupid not to. Also, it doesn't make sense for them to be in Conjuration in the first place.

Even without that, AbjChamp is probably worth it for the BAB, casting, and HD.

4. Sorcerer 2/Paladin 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 6/Abjurant Champion +1/Swiftblade +3. Taking the extra CL hit from three more Swiftblade levels doesn't cost you a spell level (you end up with 7ths), and you get 3.0 haste as a capstone.

[paranoidbox]

First, an aside: where does the word "gish" come from?

Gish is the debut album by American alternative rock band The Smashing Pumpkins, released in May 1991 through Caroline Records.

No wait, sorry, that's not where it came from.

It was originally the name of the Githyanki fighter/wizard. It means "skilled."

Edit: Apparently, it's also a digging stick. Who knew?

[Metahuman1]

Honestly, I'd drop spell sword, use Wizard as my base casting class for the flexibility, and take levels in Warblade to get the most out of int. Then take Swift Blade up to level 9, sacrificing Abjurant champion levels to make room for it if needed.


Remember to use the retraining rules in PHB 2 every few levels to get your maneuvers to upgrade as far as they'll go.

[Haluesen]

First, an aside: where does the word "gish" come from?

1. Evil Paladin. If you want an initating gish you'll want to go into James Paul McCartney Jade Phoenix Mage. Cha to saves is awesome, probably better than a few non-scaling maneuvers.

2. You never should never have more levels of Sorcerer than are absolutely necessary. I'd start the build off with Sorcerer 2/Paladin 3 (or Sorcerer 2/Paladin 2/Other Full BAB Class 1) and then go into Spellsword, using Precocious Apprentice to qualify. Battle Sorcerer is worthless to you, since Sorcerer 2 has the same BAB and Battle Sorcerer 2, and the former has much better spellcasting. Spell Shield auto-scales with your casting and the familiar doesn't, so Spell Shield is an upgrade.

3. Are you the DM? It sounds like you're the DM. Congratulations, Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are now abjurations.

Seriously, make them abjurations. The class is so obviously designed with Mage Armor in mind (Abjurant Armor literally names Mage Armor as one of the spells it's supposed to be used with) that it's stupid not to. Also, it doesn't make sense for them to be in Conjuration in the first place.

Even without that, AbjChamp is probably worth it for the BAB, casting, and HD.

4. Sorcerer 2/Paladin 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 6/Abjurant Champion +1/Swiftblade +3. Taking the extra CL hit from three more Swiftblade levels doesn't cost you a spell level (you end up with 7ths), and you get 3.0 haste as a capstone.

There's a lot of good advice in here, thank you! ^_^ Could you tell me where I could find Precocious Apprentice, so I can check that out in detail? And yeah I am the DM here, have some story ideas for this little semi-important NPC but don't want him to be inconsequential/killed too quickly in a fight. Sure there are resurrections but I'd rather not rely on them. So that's why the build help is needed. Though you are right I could alter the Mage Armor spells, and have considered it for awhile. Is Spellsword even needed then though? I mostly considered it and Battle Sorcerer so the character could have a little bit of armor since Mage Armor doesn't stack and didn't otherwise benefit from Abjurant Champ.


Gish is the debut album by American alternative rock band The Smashing Pumpkins, released in May 1991 through Caroline Records.

No wait, sorry, that's not where it came from.

It was originally the name of the Githyanki fighter/wizard. It means "skilled."

Edit: Apparently, it's also a digging stick. Who knew?

This is some cool extra knowledge. :smallbiggrin:


Honestly, I'd drop spell sword, use Wizard as my base casting class for the flexibility, and take levels in Warblade to get the most out of int. Then take Swift Blade up to level 9, sacrificing Abjurant champion levels to make room for it if needed.


Remember to use the retraining rules in PHB 2 every few levels to get your maneuvers to upgrade as far as they'll go.

Hmm it is a possibility...I generally tend to prefer using spontaneous casters though, since I am crap with prepared casters. They are supposed to be the elite of the elite, not in my hands though. :smallsigh: Were it a basic character/foe than I could work with it, but I really need this guy to be able to be close to the PC's in power. But Wizard and Warblade is rather tempting also...I'll consider it at least for some ideas. But I'd really prefer to keep Sorcerer if possible, or some other fitting spontaneous spellcaster. I do better with limited known spells that can be cast a bit more often, and then wands and scrolls for whatever else is needed.

Though I did absolutely not know about the retraining thing with maneuvers. That's a good bit of information there. :smallsmile: I know I will definitely find a big use for that at some point.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's a lot of good advice in here, thank you! ^_^ Could you tell me where I could find Precocious Apprentice, so I can check that out in detail? And yeah I am the DM here, have some story ideas for this little semi-important NPC but don't want him to be inconsequential/killed too quickly in a fight. Sure there are resurrections but I'd rather not rely on them. So that's why the build help is needed. Though you are right I could alter the Mage Armor spells, and have considered it for awhile. Is Spellsword even needed then though? I mostly considered it and Battle Sorcerer so the character could have a little bit of armor since Mage Armor doesn't stack and didn't otherwise benefit from Abjurant Champ.

Precocious Apprentice is from Complete Arcane, p. 181.

Spellsword is full BAB and grants casting at level 1, so it's a pretty solid dip. Also, when you first qualify for Spellsword, you're one BAB away from qualifying for Abjurant Champion, so you might as well take the Spellsword level rather than A) losing some casting by taking another Paladin level or B) losing some BAB by taking two more Sorcerer levels.


Though I did absolutely not know about the retraining thing with maneuvers. That's a good bit of information there. :smallsmile: I know I will definitely find a big use for that at some point.

Except that doesn't work. PHB2 retraining rules wouldn't allow the same sort of up-training that you can get from taking levels in a ToB class:

Change one class feature option to another legal one. The new option must represent a choice that you could have made at the same level as you made the original choice.