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CoolMatthew
2007-04-25, 02:23 AM
So I'm coming up with a gestalt build for very tough compaign I'll be playing soon and here's my thought process:

1) first class must be full caster
2) second class should be mostly passive to accommodate casting
3) casting ability should synergize heavily with the second class

So with that in mind I made this:

Int: Wizard, or Archivist // Duskblade, Swashbuckler, or Warblade

Wis: Cleric, or Druid // Monk, Ninja, or Swordsage

Cha: Sorcerer // Paladin, or Spellthief

Well I don't much like the Spellthief, my party has a Healer // Favored Soul (so no Cleric), Swashbuckler and casting is a weak combo, maneuvers might as well be spells as far as actions are concerned, Monk is more passive and defensive then Ninja (which is good), and the Archivist has more touch spells then the Wizard. So I'm left with Archivist // Duskblade, Druid // Monk, or Sorcerer // Paladin. Thoughts, comments, advice, or did i miss something? Thanks in advance!

-Matt

Darkxarth
2007-04-25, 02:28 AM
Personally, I like the Sorcerer // Paladin option the best, though I'll admit to not having the books that the Archivist and Duskblade are in, so I can't testify to that particular combo.

The Druid // Monk seems a bit redundant to me. The Druid can already Wild Shape to gain melee combat abilities, get increased speed, or any number of things at which the Monk excels.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-25, 02:40 AM
warlock/marshel

Zagreen
2007-04-25, 02:52 AM
The only redundant part of Druid // Monk is the unarmed combat progression. And just because it's the monk's signature ability doesn't mean it's the monk's best ability. Who wants to be just a bear when you can be a bear with 100 ft. move speed, a +10 dodge bonus, and spell resistance?

I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the possibilities of Warblade or Swordsage. Some of the stances give nice passive boosts, and you can stock up on swift and immediate action maneuvers. The counters in particular have a lot of defensive power, although you're probably not going to get to refresh them mid-combat very often.

Sorcerer // Paladin can be lots of fun for SAD builds, since you only really need 4 levels of Paladin to get all the CHA stuff from it and then you can go looking for other CHA-based abilities from other classes. If you want to do lots of multiclassing this would probably be the way to go.

Starsinger
2007-04-25, 02:53 AM
Cleric\\Fighter, take Zen Archery and spend your fighter feats on archery stuff or ways to keep yourself alive, freeing up your regular feats for casting stuff. Then all you need is to buff up Wisdom for casting and attacking, and Constitution for hit points.

JaronK
2007-04-25, 04:45 AM
Druid//Monk is of course insanely strong, as your Unarmed Strike damage is higher in larger forms... among other bonuses. Archivist//Duskblade is of course very nasty too. But some other fun possibilities:

Binder//Dread Necromancer. Very flavorfull, and the Binder's day long vestige binding is a nice strong passive bonus.

Beguiler 11/Sea Witch 3/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5//Rogue 13/Swashbuckler 3/Scarlet Corsair 3/Assassin 1. It's complicated as a build, but there's incredible arcane power in there combined with nice int synergy and strong melee abilities.

Druid//Swordsage is similar to Druid//Monk. Hard to say which is better honestly, but of course you'll want the unarmed strike Swordsage varient. Manuevers really help, but you can't cast if you're using manuevers, and flurry for a Druid can be incredibly useful, as can the free Improved Trip.

JaronK

Dhavaer
2007-04-25, 05:33 AM
Wizard//Monk, with the Kung Fu Genius feat. It's in the Dragon Compendium, and bases your monk abilities off of Intelligence.

Rahdjan
2007-04-25, 05:35 AM
It's been ruled that you can't cast wizard spells in armor without ASP like a duskblade. That class feature only benifits spells you cast as a Duskblade.

illathid
2007-04-25, 05:42 AM
Which is why you should go archivist. Divine magic has no spell failure.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-25, 05:50 AM
Personally, I'd go Archivist//Warblade because it is very strong melee and has the best spellcasting and no spell failure. Plus you have massive intelligence. Of course an Archivist//Factotum would be amazing int senergy.

The White Knight
2007-04-25, 08:49 AM
I'm a pretty big fan of the Sorc/Pal gestalt. It becomes even sweeter when you throw a level of Monk in there with the Ascetic Mage feat to get Cha to AC instead of Wis. Then perhaps take Dragon Disciple on the Pal/Monk side to additionally gain fun things like natural armor, hefty stat bonuses, extra daily casting for your Sorc, flight, etc. That's lots of "passive" glory right there.

Tengu
2007-04-25, 08:53 AM
Cleric//Monk/Soulknife/Soulbow. You get wisdom-based casting, and wisdom to AC, attack, and damage. Soulknife is in the SRD, and you can find the soulbow here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2

Gitman00
2007-04-25, 09:03 AM
How about Wizard/Rogue for the Int combo? I usually make Int my key ability when I play a rogue anyway, so this is probably what I would do. Massive skill points and spells to back it up makes for a pretty good combo. Plus, I'm pretty sure you can add sneak attack damage to your rays.

EDIT: If your DM allows prestige classes and you're going for extreme cheese, you could even go for Arcane Trickster/Rogue. Your spell progression remains intact, and you get sneak attack progression from both classes, which STACKS. Add this to the impromptu sneak attack ability Arcane Tricksters get, and... well, you get the idea.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-25, 09:40 AM
Wizard//Monk, with the Kung Fu Genius feat. It's in the Dragon Compendium, and bases your monk abilities off of Intelligence.This is what I was going to suggest, as well. You can also do it with archivist if you want, to fill in some of the healing gaps.

The White Knight's suggestion (sorceror/paladin with a monk dip/Ascetic Mage) is also quite awesome. You can also get good results swapping Sorceror for Bard or another Cha-based caster. I like Bard in particular because you can get Snowflake Wardance. At that point you have CHA to saves, AC, and attack rolls. Which, with the Pally levels, will be nice in the first place. Going bard rather than sorceror means you're not hanging back being a primary caster and can get into the fight more.

Also think about dipping Hexblade, and you can get Cha to saves, and Cha to saves TWICE when you're saving vs. a spell. Add the monk's good saves to that, and you're very survivable.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-25, 09:59 AM
Wow, but this build has been coming up frequently:

Monk 1/Sorcerer 9/Enlightened Fist 10 is a solid build. It looses 3 CL, unfortunately, but it solid otherwise. Taking Ascetic Mage makes it nearly entirely SAD for Charisma, with Cha to AC instead of WIS. With a little Splatting you can add in 4 levels of Abjurant Champion—5 if you want an extra BAB, in place of 4 levels of Sorcerer, making it Monk 1/Sorcerer 5/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 4. Alternatively, you could take 5 levels of Abjurant Champion in place of 5 levels of Enlightened Fist, and increase your maximum CL to 18 at 20th, but that's a little suboptimal for the build. Cast Luminary Armor from BoED for +13 AC, or fast-talk your DM into making the mage armor spells into Conjuration effects, as they probably should be.

If you want to focus on AC over combat, for some reason, then 2 levels of Force Adept can get you a boost to your force descriptor AC spells. For extreme SAD, take a pair of Paladin levels for Charisma to saves. The possibly ideal build looks something like this:

Monk 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Enlightened Fist 6/Force Adept 3. Total CL of 15, but +15 to AC from Luminary Armor, Charisma to AC, +2 dodge to AC from Monk levels, add in Shield (which gives you... +10?) and you've got 50-ish AC without breaking a sweat. Then you can start chugging away with full-round attacks that deliver potent touch spells or ray spells AND deal energy damage. And you have Charisma to all your saves. And a +14/+9/+4 BAB.

SAD enough?

EDIT: For a totally different flavor, Hexblade works instead of Paladin. Hell, Hexblade actually works instead of Sorcerer, as well, but you have to take it a little farther... about 8th level, I'd say, but you give up nearly all spellcasting ability to become a bigger melee threat. Bard works, too. Variant builds include:

Hexblade 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Monk 1/Enlightened Fist 6
Bard 5/Hexblade 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 6
Monk 5/Sorcerer 4/Hexblade 2/Enlightened Fist 6/Abjurant Champion 3
Warmage 14/Monk 1/Abjurant Champion 5

...and so on.

Indon
2007-04-25, 10:04 AM
I'd like to agree with Druid//Monk if you decide to focus on Wisdom. Wild Shaping removes relying on Str/Dex/Con for a monk, essentially removing their own MAD. Furthermore, Monk passive abilities stack with or synergize with the benefits of Wild Shape (Your Unarmed Strike damage, for example, increases with the size of the animal you are Wild Shaping into).

The only thing you don't get that you would probably want, is full BAB progression.

Douglas
2007-04-25, 10:04 AM
Druid//Swordsage. Yes, strikes are active and might as well be spells as far as actions in combat are concerned, but they get Wisdom to AC just like Monks except that you can actually wear light armor without losing the bonus, they still get evasion and improved evasion, just not quite as early, they get a free initiative bonus, and stances, boosts, and counters all use swift or immediate actions, hardly cutting into your spellcasting at all.

Telonius
2007-04-25, 10:06 AM
I've been thinking about the possibilities for a Cloistered ClericX/Monk2, with Intuitive Attack. So, you get your Wisdom bonus to both attack and AC, shoring up one of the main weaknesses of the Cloistered Cleric (low AC). Extra Domain (Knowledge) from Cloistered Cleric. d6 for unarmed attacks, Monk weapon proficiency, Evasion, a couple of bonus feats, and all good saves from Monk. Downsides to that would be a still-low BAB, inability to gain the Wis bonus to AC if wearing any armor at all, and lack of full casting (which is bad).

Talya
2007-04-25, 10:08 AM
Hmm. Wonder if it's possible to get attack, damage, saves, armor class, and spellcasting all tied into intelligence...heck, you can even get your hit points partly tied into intelligence, at least at first level.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-25, 10:13 AM
Druid//Swordsage. Yes, strikes are active and might as well be spells as far as actions in combat are concerned, but they get Wisdom to AC just like Monks except that you can actually wear light armor without losing the bonus, they still get evasion and improved evasion, just not quite as early, they get a free initiative bonus, and stances, boosts, and counters all use swift or immediate actions, hardly cutting into your spellcasting at all.

The problem with doing a Martial Adept/Spellcaster combo is that in any round you're using maneuvers you're not using spells. Its the same as Mystic Theurge. For clerics and druids it's a bit differant though if you plan on just hitting people.

There's also Intuitive Attack in Book of Exalted Deeds for using wisdom to attack with simple weapons.

Douglas
2007-04-25, 10:32 AM
The problem with doing a Martial Adept/Spellcaster combo is that in any round you're using maneuvers you're not using spells. Its the same as Mystic Theurge. For clerics and druids it's a bit differant though if you plan on just hitting people.
And? I explicitly pointed out a bundle of passive bonuses that are equal to or better than most of the Monk package that people usually care about, boosts and counters can be used with no interference with spellcasting at all unless you happen to be casting Quickened spells or the handful of spells that are normally that fast, and stances are passive bonuses that consume an action only when you switch between them and even then it's only a swift action. The bottom line is that you can very easily build a Swordsage to have maneuvers that don't prevent you from using spells at the same time, and you get an impressive array of passive bonuses even without using maneuvers.

Draz74
2007-04-25, 11:06 AM
Monk is more passive and defensive then Ninja (which is good),

Don't dismiss the Ninja so fast! Yes, it requires a lot of actions -- but they're swift or free actions.

Druid // Ninja is a great Gestalt combo. Odd flavor, though. :smallamused:

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-25, 11:35 AM
Oh I don't think Druid/Ninja flavor would be all that weird. All of the ethereal Ghost Step stuff would give you a kind of Animal Spirit feel, and the ability to shapechange into smaller/stealthier animals would help out with the sneakiness. You'd be a sort of nature-based trickster.

Tengu
2007-04-25, 12:33 PM
The Inuzuka clan springs to mind... ugh, no! Not Naruto, must find something else!
What about... when Mononoke appears for the first time in Princess Mononoke and attacks the camp/city at night?

Anime is such a broad category that you can find examples to anything in it.

Telonius
2007-04-25, 12:38 PM
Oh I don't think Druid/Ninja flavor would be all that weird. All of the ethereal Ghost Step stuff would give you a kind of Animal Spirit feel, and the ability to shapechange into smaller/stealthier animals would help out with the sneakiness. You'd be a sort of nature-based trickster.
You could go with some themed animals that are supposed to be sneaky, deadly killers. Snakes come to mind, as do spiders.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-25, 12:42 PM
Wizard//Monk, with the Kung Fu Genius feat. It's in the Dragon Compendium, and bases your monk abilities off of Intelligence.

Lucky I checked, 'cos this is what I was going to post. Damn you Dhavaer! (for beating me to the punch by, like, 7 hours :smalltongue:)

ravenkith
2007-04-25, 02:41 PM
Not necessarily SAD, but still good combinations, with the right prcs/feats:

Cleric//Martial Rogue
Cleric//Monk
Monk//Psychic Warrior
Wizard//Martial Rogue

Human Paragon 3
2007-04-25, 02:53 PM
Tengu, what is the benefit of combing Cleric with Soul Knife? Soul Knife is not a Wis based class.


For what it's worth, Paladin/Sorcerer would be a very strong combination. The Zen Archery thing sounded extremely worthwhile too!

selfcritical
2007-04-25, 04:27 PM
Psywar/Druid. Psywar is mostly buffs instead of active abilities, and they'll all syngergize well with turning into a big furry thing

Incarnate/anything. No matter what you do, if you add 20 levels of incarnate, you'll get pretty good at it.

Tengu
2007-04-25, 04:33 PM
Tengu, what is the benefit of combing Cleric with Soul Knife? Soul Knife is not a Wis based class.

It's there only to quality for Soulbow.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-25, 05:10 PM
I'll back Druid/Swordsage.

The niftiest bit here is that, yes, you can't use strikes and spells, or boosts and quickened spells, at the same time, but, when you go Zilla and start to melee (this is a Gestalt game, and you're just as much of a melee fighter as a caster), your ability to affect the battlefield doesn't drop quite as much, since you can switch to strikes instead of spells and hardly lose anything.

Wizard/Warblade is also nice, in theory; d12 hit die to cover your weakness, and full BAB. Just get a whole bunch of counters (and the occasional helpful boost), and you're set. Of course, Warblades are expected to wade into melee occasionally, and that takes actions better spent on spells; also, they get medium armor. Actually, though, Setting Sun is the best caster discipline, since its throws (even though they cost an action) remove an enemy from your face, which can sometimes be a better use of an action than casting (when you have something really dangerous in your face). Downside is, of course, that Setting Sun is Swordsage-only, Swordsages use Wisdom, and Wis-based casters, except Cloistered Cleric and Archivist, don't need to remove enemies from their faces nearly as much as Wizards do.

Hmm. . . Crusader/Psion, maybe? Crusaders run on Charisma, which means that they might go better with Wilders, but they don't run on Charisma that much; they mostly use their physical abilities.

A Crusader/Dread Necromancer can keep going forever, assuming that you use your spells sparingly.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-25, 09:05 PM
Monk 1/Paladin/Sorcerer with the ascetic mage and force of personality: Cha to all saves (twice to will), and to AC (ascetic mage replaces Wis with Cha, and you get a higher AC bonus because monk and sorcerer stack for that). You wont be the best caster, but you will only need one ability score, especially if you take Divine Might to find a use for those turning attempts (which would be rather ineffective because of your low paladin level).

You have to appreciate the irony of CHA being your most amazing ability....for combat.

Turcano
2007-04-25, 09:37 PM
EDIT: If your DM allows prestige classes and you're going for extreme cheese, you could even go for Arcane Trickster/Rogue. Your spell progression remains intact, and you get sneak attack progression from both classes, which STACKS. Add this to the impromptu sneak attack ability Arcane Tricksters get, and... well, you get the idea.

Sneak attack progression doesn't stack, for the same reason CL progression wouldn't stack if it were on the other side. They're the same feature.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-25, 10:00 PM
It stacks if you stagger it so that you get Rogue on level X+2n, and Trickster on X+2n+1, since you're never getting it at the same time.

(Edit): That said, you should not be allowed Arcane Trickster in Gestalt.

Turcano
2007-04-25, 10:03 PM
It doesn't matter if you stagger it; you get it at the fastest progression, which is the same for both classes in this case.

CoolMatthew
2007-04-26, 01:33 AM
Ok wow, thanks for all the help! I probably should have mentioned I'm starting at level 1, and considering the campaign I'll probably not make it to a prestige class. I've looked over what you all have said so far and think Swordsage would be better for Druid then Ninja or Monk. So what we have left is this:

Archivist X // Duskblade X
Pros: Channels scary divine touch spells, Good in melee, Good fortitude and will saves, Dark Knowledge, Medium armor
Cons: Some wasted spells, d8 Hit Die, Bad reflex save, needs good melee stats

Sorcerer X // Paladin 3 / Monk 2 / Dragon Disciple X-5
Pros: Good Hit Die (d8-d12), Good fortitude and will saves, Evasion, Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC, Force of Personality for Cha to Will Vs. mind-affecting, good passive prestige stuff
Cons: No Armor

Druid X // Swordsage X
Pros: Wis to AC, All good Saves, Good Swordsage only counters, Animal Companion, Wild Shape, Stances
Cons: Leather Armor, d8 Hit Die, Medium BAB, Would need to read the Polymorph errata :smalltongue:.

Hmm maybe I should get you guys to fill out the Pros and Cons and make this a poll...

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-26, 07:31 AM
Coming a bit late to the thread, but Cloistered Cleric//Swordsage is an excellent option, and far better than a normal Cleric//Swordsage. You get a much-increased spell selection, while keeping the d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. The loss of heavy armor doesn't matter anyway with the Swordsage's Wis to AC in light armor. Once you hit level 2, you're set (and until then, you need to be careful).

Sorry if it's been mentioned already: Warblade//Psion makes excellent use of Int, and has a slew of bonuses for the Psion side: d12 HD, Medium Armor (that as a psion you can use, unlike a wizard), Full BAB, Int to reflex, strong fort and will saves, Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge, Int to numerous attack rolls, stances, and caster-friendly maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge (anti-magic/power field? Removed!) and White Raven Tactics (Take that! And now I hit you again!), and Warblade bonus feats (which include Improved Initiative for the Psion side).

[Edit:]Heck, while you're at it, take a look at Paladin//Favored Soul for major Cha use and a very durable character. The saves on one of them are ridiculous (all good saves+Cha bonus); then there's heavy armor, full BAB, full casting, d10HD...

ravenkith
2007-04-27, 09:15 AM
Wouldn't sudden strike + sneak attack stack?

A rogue/assassin//monk/ninja could be quite frightening, at least in theory...

Especially if you max out UMD and give him wands of those spells that let you sneak undead & plants...

Indon
2007-04-27, 10:03 AM
Wouldn't sudden strike + sneak attack stack?

A rogue/assassin//monk/ninja could be quite frightening, at least in theory...


Yeah. It was discussed some time back, and a Monk/Ninja//Scout/Rogue with specific feats could get almost full progression on Sudden Strike, Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Monk Unarmed Damage.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-27, 10:06 AM
Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 7//Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Wizard 9 is a solid choice. I turn AoEs of 5th or less into rays, and I turn rays into held spells. I also can sacrifice my 1d6 SA to thieve someone else's spells while inflicting my channeled spells upon them. Just make sure you take Master Spellthief.

Draz74
2007-04-27, 02:03 PM
[Edit:]Heck, while you're at it, take a look at Paladin//Favored Soul for major Cha use and a very durable character. The saves on one of them are ridiculous (all good saves+Cha bonus); then there's heavy armor, full BAB, full casting, d10HD...

... and then, after your 2-level dip in Paladin for Divine Grace, switch to Knight//Favored Soul. :smallbiggrin:

goat
2007-04-27, 07:46 PM
I'd have thought Wizard/Rogue would be quite effective. As long as you've got meat shields in the rest of the party, you can become ultimate Bat-man.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-28, 12:28 AM
I'd have thought Wizard/Rogue would be quite effective. As long as you've got meat shields in the rest of the party, you can become ultimate Bat-man.

Wizard//Feat Rogue really takes the cake there.


... and then, after your 2-level dip in Paladin for Divine Grace, switch to Knight//Favored Soul. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, the paladin/knight: even more of a stick in the mud than the normal paladin :smallamused:. If you're taking the character a ways, though, getting the pally mount and then getting 2 levels in knight lets you go into Cavalier with a special mount and a free required feat. And Cavalier is full of charging goodness.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-28, 11:27 AM
Wizard//Feat Rogue really takes the cake there.



Ah, the paladin/knight: even more of a stick in the mud than the normal paladin :smallamused:. If you're taking the character a ways, though, getting the pally mount and then getting 2 levels in knight lets you go into Cavalier with a special mount and a free required feat. And Cavalier is full of charging goodness.

Merhk. The thread is straying. A truly solid Cavalier has all the standard meleeist MAD, plus needing Dexterity for Mounted Combat negations, Charisma to fuel his Paladinhood, Wisdom for Holy Sword and Heal Mount. Pretty much everything except Intelligence. Granted, it's not INTENSE MAD—the kind that needs medication—but it is irritating and far from the thread's goal of single-ability dependence.

A solid SAD horseman would be halfling, in all probability, looking something like:

Swordsage 9/Halfling Paragon 3/Halfling Outrider 8//Fighter 2/Stoneblessed (Gnome) 3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue 5

Thanks to the awesome of ToB, I see no reason why you can't adopt Giant-Killing Stance on horseback, and Blade Bravo doesn't specify that any of its bonuses need to be on the ground. Throw in enough Shadow Hand and Setting Sun spice, and you'll be entirely Dex dependent. Combine Spirited Charge with a Shortsword and Shadow Blade to add your Dex to damage and double it on charges. Ride-by-Attack, Mounted Full Attack, monstrous bonuses against larger foes... it's just fun.

Of course... a stoneblessed halfling paragon makes absolutely no sense, and we're looking for Charisma SAD here, not Dex. But it's still a cool idea, no?

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-28, 11:34 AM
A solid SAD horseman would be halfling, in all probability, looking something like:

Swordsage 9/Halfling Paragon 3/Halfling Outrider 8//Fighter 2/Stoneblessed (Gnome) 3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue 5

Thanks to the awesome of ToB, I see no reason why you can't adopt Giant-Killing Stance on horseback, and Blade Bravo doesn't specify that any of its bonuses need to be on the ground. Throw in enough Shadow Hand and Setting Sun spice, and you'll be entirely Dex dependent. Combine Spirited Charge with a Shortsword and Shadow Blade to add your Dex to damage and double it on charges. Ride-by-Attack, Mounted Full Attack, monstrous bonuses against larger foes... it's just fun.

Of course... a stoneblessed halfling paragon makes absolutely no sense, and we're looking for Charisma SAD here, not Dex. But it's still a cool idea, no?

Very. I should try something like that...

Annarrkkii
2007-04-28, 11:40 AM
Mhm. Suboptimal, since you're not using a lance, but still very effective. It nullifies the usefulness of many of the movement boosts/stances, but if you focus almost exclusively on boosts from Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun, you should be set. You cannot use any Stone Dragon maneuvers on horseback, though.

Also. Check this out. A joust, a traditional knight battle. The two of you square off, and thunder towards eachother. Lance brought to bear, the enemy's armor shines brightly. Your mithral breastplate flashes a response, but you don't draw your sword or even ready your shield. The enemy bears down, roaring warcries... and you activate Counter Charge and send him toppling of his horse. Or you wait until his horse attacks you, and Counter Charge HIS HORSE, sending it flying away from you...

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-28, 11:51 AM
I was thinking more of the coolness factor than the optimization factor when I responded. And I like that situation.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-04-28, 12:03 PM
For great passive bonuses I'd recommend either the Binder or the Incarnate or Totemist (from Magic of Incarnum). Admittedly, the 'casting stat' for Incarnum characters is Con, but it's not nearly as important as most classes casting stat. It might limit your number of soulmelds at higher levels.

TheThan
2007-04-28, 12:21 PM
It's been ruled that you can't cast wizard spells in armor without ASP like a duskblade. That class feature only benifits spells you cast as a Duskblade.


where did you find this information? I would certainly like to know.

Edit: never mind, i found it. *begins grumbleing*

Ramza00
2007-04-28, 12:39 PM
While I haven't played this build yet, it should be a great Wizard/Archivist. Click link for info. I will play it sometime (thus me making it :smallwink:)


Human with 2 flaws
Cleric 1/Archivist 19
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 8/Innate of Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 2 (Not in that order, see table)

The build is a master counterspeller as well as a competent mage

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1014/masterdispellerlw2.jpg
For Counterspelling
Inquisition Domain gives me a +4 untyped bonus to dispel checks (Greyhawk Dieties that have the Inquisition Domain which debut in Complete Divine is Heironeous, Pholtus, St. Cuthbert, Moradin)
Master Specialist 8 gives .5*Class level competence bonus to dispel checks
Elven Spell Lore gives a +2 Untyped Caster Level Bonus to Dispel Checks (since it is a caster level bonus it caps at 10 for Dispel and 20 for Greater Dispel)
Arcane Mastery Allows me to take 10 on Dispel and Caster Level Checks.
Master Counterspelling at lvl 18 will allow me to spellturn any counterspells I do at the original caster.
Battlemagic Perception Cleric 3 Wiz/Sorc 3 spell in Heroes of Battle. Lasts 10 mins per level. Will have extend spell on it so I can have it on pretty much all day, will also have a contigency Battlemagic Perception up as soon as I reach 11th lvl. Battlemagic Perception gives a bonus to spellcraft for identifying spells to be counterspelled, additionally it allows me to counterspell as a free action. Once I successfully counterspell a spell Battlemagic Perception instanly ends (that is the reason for the Contigency, if there are still enemies and I don't have that spell on me it instantly activates giving me anotehr free action).
Divine Defiance feat in Heroes of Battle requires turn/rebuke undead and a divine caster level of 3. I can spend a turn/rebuke attempt to try to counter a spell as an intermediate action. Thus starting lvl 11 I can counter 2 spells as a free action, and afterwards I can start countering spells as intermediate actions, making me the counterspell king while not using any of my own actions.
If I still need any more boost for counterspelling the Spellcaster's Bane spell in Complete Mage. Sorc/Wizard 3 allows me to add +2 insight bonus to my dispel spells for rounds/level. Cast as a swift action.
For the Magey Stuff
Improved Initative
Arcane Reach makes my touch spells ranged touch including my archivist ones
Chain Spell, Followed by Easy Metamagic Chain allows me to buff my party extremly well (out of combat or in combat, yes my party would like an arcane reach chain polymorph into trolls followed by me casting favor of the martyr on them making the immune to all damage except the one the troll is immune to, oh yeah I cast energy immunity on them before the battle since that buff lasts 24 hours), or I can cast a Greater Dispel Chain getting rid of all the enemies buffs (20 buffs and or magic items suddenly are dispelled), finally chain spell allows me to do some offensive capabilities, slay living+arcane reach+chain or combust+arcane reach+chain.
Extend Spell for Duration of Spells since I have a lot of spell slots might as well have those buffs on all day
Quicken Spell for it is obvious benefits
Elven Spell Lore will allow me to make Orb of Fire, or Flamestrike be sonic damage instead of fire, as well as this feat helping my dispel checks.
Craft Contingent Spell will allow me to keep emergency protections such as Dimension Door available (the oh **** spells) while not wasting my "contingency" spell which i can then use for having the buffs I need on me for every battle. Additionally there are some divine spells in the Spell Compendium and Heroes of Horror that can do contingent heals and contingent true resurrections (Renewal Pact, Fortunate Fate, Pact of Return)
Spell Focus besides being prerequisites (for IotSV, Archmage, and Master Specialist) also boost my DCs. I may change the Spell Focus Transmutation to another school, depending on how I write the flavor of the character
Finally I am an Initate of the Sevenfold Veil I will have my veils to defend me, and since I can use them as intermediate actions starting with IotSV lvl 4's Reactive Warding at lvl 14 at this level I effectively become unkilliable. Counterspelling allows me to stop casters, Veils allow me to stop melee, archers, and casters, Craft Contigent Spell will other type of Contigencies have backup spells just in case the previous two things don't work. If I am in an Oh **** situation I will just teleport out
Flavorwise I am thinking either a lawful ******* who hunts people down for a purpose (because his church tells him too, or his "cabal"/organization tells him too.

Or a person who pretends to be such a lawful ******* for a church/organization but instead just uses that as an excuse to see the world, explore, and search after magical rumors of powerful spells. (After all an inquisition is the act of inquiring into a matter; an investigation. It can be nefarious or it can be curious).

Also this link may be helpful http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39659
As in these two links
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=499242
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=647448

Ramza00
2007-04-28, 12:54 PM
Druid//Monk is of course insanely strong, as your Unarmed Strike damage is higher in larger forms... among other bonuses. Archivist//Duskblade is of course very nasty too. But some other fun possibilities:

Druid//Swordsage is similar to Druid//Monk. Hard to say which is better honestly, but of course you'll want the unarmed strike Swordsage varient. Manuevers really help, but you can't cast if you're using manuevers, and flurry for a Druid can be incredibly useful, as can the free Improved Trip.

JaronK

Druid 20//
Swordsage 1/Monk 2/Swordsage 2/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5
Initator Level of 19
Monk Damage of 15 before Items or Superior Unarmed Strike (MoN doesn't progress unarmed damage)
Flurry lvl 12, thus 2 free attacks and no penalties
Two Monk Bonus Feats
MoN gives 2/1/2/1/2 instead of Swordsage 1/1/1/1/1 maneuver learning

what you give up compared to full Swordsage 20
Quick to Act Progression
Discipline Focus
Dual Boost 3/day (not a big deal for most builds don't get up to lvl 20)