[3.5] Item Alteration + Tomes = ?

[Uncle Pine]

1) Obtain a +5 Tome (i.e. Tome of Clear Thought +5).
2) Read the tome to gain a +5 inherent bonus to the corresponding ability (i.e. Int).
3) Obtain another identical +5 Tome.
4) Cast Item Alteration on the tome, switching the inherent bonus to another type of bonus.
5) Start reading the altered tome.
6) Keep Item Alteration up for the whole period it takes to read the tome (this may require more than a single Artificier).
7) Repeat 3 to 6 for every bonus from the following list: alchemical, armor, circumstance, competence, deflection, deformity, divine, dodge, exalted, insight, luck, morale, natural armor, perfection, racial, resistance, shield, size (I might have missed a few, enhancement isn't mentioned because a +6 item is cheaper).
8) Profit.
9) Repeat 1 to 8 for every other ability score.

Did I miss something that would make the above illegal? Has this been mentioned and/or busted in the past? Is the assumption that since the altered tome ceases to exist before Item Alteration runs out the ability bonus is unaffected wrong?

[ZamielVanWeber]

You would need to keep the infusion up at all times (which would devour your slots) and would not gain bonus skillpoints because the bonus is not inherent. Otherwise I never saw a problem with this when it came up before.

[Brova]

Isn't it just a better plan to craft headband of intellect equivalents for all those types? Even accounting for the double cost for items that don't take a slot a +6 headband is only a little over half the price of a tome.

[Curmudgeon]

Inherent bonuses have no expiration and cannot be dispelled. The other types of bonuses don't share those properties.

[Telonius]

The big question is whether changing the bonus type in the middle of reading it would spoil the magical effect. It takes 48 hours over a minimum of 6 days to get the regular bonus from a Tome. The item has to revert back to the original +5 Inherent bonus before it becomes a valid target for what you want to do.

So let's say you're trying to get a +5 Alchemical bonus. You persist the infusion, and then wait until it's just about to run out. 1 round before it runs out, you wouldn't want to cast Item Alteration, since it would change the current bonus (Alchemical) to something different. It has to be something other than an Alchemical bonus for Item Alteration to turn it back into an Alchemical bonus. So successive castings of its persisted version aren't going to fix the problem.

So, would that mean that the item wouldn't work? There's no requirement in the use of the item that you have to do nothing but read it for 6 days straight. It only lists the minimum, not the maximum, time it would take to read it. As a DM, if someone hit it with a Dispel Magic at some point during the read, I probably wouldn't require him to start over.

On the other hand, it might be possible to judge this as a case of "Same Effect with Differing Results."

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

That would work if you broadly interpret "Recipient" to be the person getting the inherent bonus. (They receive the ultimate effect of the Infusion, even though they're not specifically the target of the infusion). That would have to be how you handle it for Artificers anyway, otherwise the stacking rules wouldn't make sense. Infusions don't target people (possible exception for Warforged, no time to look it up for certain), only equipment.

[Uncle Pine]

You would need to keep the infusion up at all times (which would devour your slots) and would not gain bonus skillpoints because the bonus is not inherent. Otherwise I never saw a problem with this when it came up before.
Nice!


Isn't it just a better plan to craft headband of intellect equivalents for all those types? Even accounting for the double cost for items that don't take a slot a +6 headband is only a little over half the price of a tome.
Crafting guidelines only cover enhancement ability bonus, so you can't simply craft a +6 headband of alchemical intellect. Using Item Alteration on multiple slotless enhancement items would require an enormous amount of infusions/day, compared to the enormous amount of infusions the trick requires once in a lifetime.


Inherent bonuses have no expiration and cannot be dispelled. The other types of bonuses don't share those properties.
Inherent bonuses are explicitly immune to dispelling, but not inherently (pardon the pun) permanent by their definition in the Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_inherentbonus&alpha=I). The duration of a bonus depends on its source, not on its type. Tomes provide a permanent bonus.


The big question is whether changing the bonus type in the middle of reading it would spoil the magical effect. It takes 48 hours over a minimum of 6 days to get the regular bonus from a Tome. The item has to revert back to the original +5 Inherent bonus before it becomes a valid target for what you want to do.

So let's say you're trying to get a +5 Alchemical bonus. You persist the infusion, and then wait until it's just about to run out. 1 round before it runs out, you wouldn't want to cast Item Alteration, since it would change the current bonus (Alchemical) to something different. It has to be something other than an Alchemical bonus for Item Alteration to turn it back into an Alchemical bonus. So successive castings of its persisted version aren't going to fix the problem.
I didn't think about that, which is unfortunate because not knowing for certain whether or not changing the bonus type mid-reading (or at any point during the six days in which you're not reading the tome) ruins the process throws the whole thing into the "ask your DM territory"... Unless we can make Item Alteration last for 6 days (= 144 hours = 8640 minutes). This requires a CL of 87 or a CL of 44 coupled with Extend Spell. I don't remember if Artificers can pump their CL with things like Consumptive Fields, but if they can a single casting of Consumptive Fields + Greater Consumptive Fields achieves CL 45 at 20th level.


As a DM, if someone hit it with a Dispel Magic at some point during the read, I probably wouldn't require him to start over.
Why would you perform such a trick where someone can hit you with Dispel Magic? Step 0 should be something like "find a secure place where you won't be disturbed".


On the other hand, it might be possible to judge this as a case of "Same Effect with Differing Results."

That would work if you broadly interpret "Recipient" to be the person getting the inherent bonus. (They receive the ultimate effect of the Infusion, even though they're not specifically the target of the infusion). That would have to be how you handle it for Artificers anyway, otherwise the stacking rules wouldn't make sense. Infusions don't target people (possible exception for Warforged, no time to look it up for certain), only equipment.
You're not the target of multiple istances of the same spell. Any of the various tome you use is (unless you have CL 44+).

[Curmudgeon]

Inherent bonuses are explicitly immune to dispelling, but not inherently (pardon the pun) permanent by their definition in the Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_inherentbonus&alpha=I). The duration of a bonus depends on its source, not on its type. Tomes provide a permanent bonus.
I don't see any statements to that effect in the descriptions of Manuals and Tomes.

[Uncle Pine]

I don't see any statements to that effect in the descriptions of Manuals and Tomes.
The bonus doesn't have a listed duration, so it doesn't expire. If it doesn't expire, it's permanent.

[DarkSonic1337]

It could just as easily have an instantaneous duration (which seems to be the intent of the tome as well).

[Uncle Pine]

It could just as easily have an instantaneous duration (which seems to be the intent of the tome as well).

You're right. I was using "permanent" as a normal word, forgetting that it's a coded term with specific rules (for example, permanent spells can be dispelled). The bonuses obtained from manuals and tomes are istantaneous, not permanent (= they are "permanent", but not permanent).

[Shalist]

...Unless we can make Item Alteration last for 6 days (= 144 hours = 8640 minutes)...


If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.

Also worth noting, any demiplane you randomly stumble across has a 1/5 chance of possessing the timeless trait (MoTP pg 155), so it probably shouldn't be -that- difficult to find or create one.

[Uncle Pine]

Also worth noting, any demiplane you randomly stumble across has a 1/5 chance of possessing the timeless trait (MoTP pg 155), so it probably shouldn't be -that- difficult to find or create one.

But are you able to read a manual/tome for 48 hours over a span of 6 days on a timeless plane? :smallconfused: