Iron Heroes Base Defense Bonus

[CowardlyPaladin]

I've heard that Monte Cook's Iron Heroes has instead of AC the Base Defense Bonus, with Armor instead providing Damage Reduction, i'm curious, what do people think of this system? Does it make melee combat more interesting, does it make armor more or less useful. I am thinking of running a non magical champaign and I might use the idea but I want to know your thoughts before I buy the book.

[Zaq]

It sort of works in a game specifically set in the Iron Heroes universe (where the monsters are calibrated against that sort of thing), but if you want to just port it over to a generic 3.5 game, you're going to have to be very careful with it. Monster damage isn't expected to be mostly soaked rather than avoided, so once you get past the early levels, monsters are going to be doing more damage than your armor is expected to be able to take.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think you'll need to be very careful with it. Don't just throw book-standard monsters at the party without carefully considering how this change is going to affect their expected damage output, and that includes humanoids with class levels.

[CowardlyPaladin]

It sort of works in a game specifically set in the Iron Heroes universe (where the monsters are calibrated against that sort of thing), but if you want to just port it over to a generic 3.5 game, you're going to have to be very careful with it. Monster damage isn't expected to be mostly soaked rather than avoided, so once you get past the early levels, monsters are going to be doing more damage than your armor is expected to be able to take.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think you'll need to be very careful with it. Don't just throw book-standard monsters at the party without carefully considering how this change is going to affect their expected damage output, and that includes humanoids with class levels.

So basically the DR just isn't high enough to be worth the fact that you are going to get hurt more?

Could you do a thing where AC exists but is smaller, and then you can add your BAB to that as well as having DR?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

No, it's more that armor doesn't scale like damage. The jump in armor bonus for a fighter going from the hide armor he bought at level 1 because it's cheap to full plate is equal to the jump between full plate and +5 full plate. AC through armor is very static. Most characters will pick something at level 1 and then use something more or less similar throughout their careers, adding enhancement bonuses as needed. The biggest jumps for characters are going to be going from something like scale mail to full plate somewhere around level 3, or getting mithril'd into heavier armor than they could ordinarily use. Most bonuses to AC are going to come from other sources - natural armor, Dex bonus increases, dodge, deflection, even luck. Damage, meanwhile, scales more or less predictably. As you get higher in level, monsters do more of it - how much more is dependent on what other things the monster can do. And that's fine in 3.5 because hit points, the D and D ablative defense, also scale more or less predictably.

I think you could have a really cool game this way, but as Zaq said you'll have to think really carefully, and fiddle not just with monster damage output but also with attack bonuses. If you're running a no-caster campaign you'll want to use generally non-magical adversaries. Using a variant like this is going to split the group into "people who try not to get hit" and "people who try to soak". At higher levels, as-written NPCs will hit too often for the dodgers and hit too hard for the soakers.

Edit: pursuant to your edit, have you looked through Unearthed Arcana and the Variant Adventuring Rules section of the SRD?

[CowardlyPaladin]

ok, so is there any D20 system you know of that can

A) Make dodging and soaking both reasonable options

B) Make armor useful and powerful (I like stories where armor is more useful than weapons)

C) actually be fun?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

There are probably d20 games that do that; I don't know of any but my knowledge of the greater tabletop world is pretty limited. Dungeons and Dragons: 3.5 Edition is not really suited to be that game without a not-insignificant amount of work.

Or. You can try to run a regular 3.5 game and try to incorporate things through description and some futzing around with what hit points mean.

[Blackhawk748]

Could you do a thing where AC exists but is smaller, and then you can add your BAB to that as well as having DR?

This is a thing, Unearthed Arcana has a variant that does this. It roughly cuts the AC bonus in half and gives DR equal to that. Roughly.

Ive found it to be ok, but i feel it would work best in E6 or at least up till 10. Mainly because past that DR 5/- wont do a whole lot.

[CowardlyPaladin]

This is a thing, Unearthed Arcana has a variant that does this. It roughly cuts the AC bonus in half and gives DR equal to that. Roughly.

Ive found it to be ok, but i feel it would work best in E6 or at least up till 10. Mainly because past that DR 5/- wont do a whole lot.

I don't have a good eye for mechanics, is it better or worse than Iron heroes?

[Blackhawk748]

I don't have a good eye for mechanics, is it better or worse than Iron heroes?

I dont know Iron Heroes, so i cant directly compare

[CowardlyPaladin]

Thats fine, does anybody else know any good system?