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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Yet Another Monk Fix (High T3?) [PEACH]



Heliomance
2015-06-12, 05:53 PM
So, the Monk sucks. We know this. But it has so much flavour, we wish it could be more. This is my attempt at bringing the Monk up to T3, giving it some unique and fun abilities, and maybe making it useful for caster killing, like it looks like it should be.

Monk

Alignment: Any lawful

Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills
The Monk's class skills are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + int



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Unarmed Damage
Speed Bonus


1st

+1

+2

+2

+2
Unarmed Strike, Path of Enlightenment, Flurry of Blows, Lightfoot Style
1d6
+0ft



2nd

+2

+3

+3

+3
Evasion, Bonus Feat
1d6
+0ft



3rd

+3

+3

+3

+3
Purity of Mind, Bonus Feat
1d6
+10ft



4th

+4

+4

+4

+4
Ki Strike (Magic)
1d8
+10ft



5th

+5

+4

+4

+4
Purity of Body
1d8
+10ft



6th

+6

+5

+5

+5
Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Bonus Feat
1d8
+20ft



7th

+7

+5

+5

+5
Mettle
1d8
+20ft



8th

+8

+6

+6

+6
Abundant Step
1d10
+20ft



9th

+9

+6

+6

+6
Improved Evasion
1d10
+30ft



10th

+10

+7

+7

+7
Ki Strike (Lawful), Diamond Soul
1d10
+30ft


11th

+11

+7

+7

+7
Greater Flurry, Enlightened Strike, Diamond Body
1d10
+30ft


12th

+12

+8

+8

+8
Enlightened Perception
2d6
+40ft



13th

+13

+8

+8

+8
Empty Body
2d6
+40ft


14th

+14

+9

+9

+9
Bonus Feat
2d6
+40ft


15th

+15

+9

+9

+9
Ascetic Mastery
2d6
+50ft


16th

+16

+10

+10

+10
Ki Strike (Adamantine)
2d8
+50ft


17th

+17

+10

+10

+10
Timeless Body
2d8
+50ft


18th

+18

+11

+11

+11
One with Emptiness
2d8
+60ft


19th

+19

+11

+11

+11
Foresight
2d8
+60ft


20th

+20

+12

+12

+12
Perfect Self, Transcendence of All Things
2d10
+60ft



Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling, and with their unarmed strike.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Unarmed Strike (Ex)
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on the table. The unarmed damage on the table is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see PHB.

Monks may use enchanted handwraps to improve their unarmed strike. These magic items are enchanted like weapons, occupy the hands slot, and apply their enhancements to the unarmed strike of the monk wearing them. They may not, however, be made of special materials.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Once per round, whenever an unarmored monk attacks with one or special monk weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even an attack of opportunity) she may choose to make a flurry of blows. If she does, all of her attack rolls that round receive a -2 penalty to hit (including AoOs made later in the same round). In exchange, she makes one additional attack with any of her special monk weapons at her highest base attack bonus. A monk always applies her strength bonus (instead of 1.5x or 1/2 her strength bonus) to all of her attacks when making a flurry of blows.

At level 5 the penalty to attack rolls is reduced to -1 and at level 9 no penalty is received.

The following count as special monk weapons: Unarmed strike, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham. Other weapons may count as special monk weapons with DM permission.

Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.
When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Path of Enlightenment (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) plus half her Monk level as an insight bonus to her AC. She may also add one point of Wisdom bonus (if any) per Monk level to attack and damage with all special Monk weapons (including her unarmed strike). She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Lightfoot Style (Su)
As part of their search for enlightenment, monks gradually become less attached to the world. Lightfoot Style allows a monk to break free of the call of gravity. She may treat all falls as if they were half the height they actually are for the purposes of calculating damage sustained.

The monk may make a DC 15 Balance check to balance upon any solid surface, no matter whether it could support her weight or not. A monk using this ability can run on a strand of spiderweb, or up a ribbon tied to an arrow, for example.

She continually benefits from the effects of the spider climb spell, except that she must move at least 20 feet every round or she falls from any surface that would not normally be possible to stand on. A monk with at least 5 ranks in Balance may even run on water or other liquids, providing she moves at least 10 feet every turn. If in any turn she does not move this distance and is standing on the surface of a liquid, she immediately falls in.

The above uses of this ability become Extraordinary starting at level 10.

A monk may also run through the air, the firmament itself supporting her footsteps. She gains a fly speed equal to her land speed, with clumsy maneuverability. While she is within reach of a solid surface, she instead has perfect maneuverability. At level 1, she may only fly 10ft, and must begin and end her movement on a solid surface. The distance she may fly increases by 10ft per monk level until level 5, at which point it becomes limited only by her movement speed. From level five onwards, the monk may make a DC 20 Balance check each round to remain in the sky, so long as she moves at least 30 feet each round. If in any round she is flying she does not move 30 feet or she fails the Balance check, she immediately falls. She does not have a stall speed despite the clumsy maneuverability - the 30 feet per round restriction applies instead.
As part of their search for enlightenment, monks gradually become less attached to the world. Lightfoot Style allows a monk to break free of the call of gravity. She may treat all falls as if they were half the height they actually are for the purposes of calculating damage sustained.

The monk may make a DC 15 Balance check to balance upon any solid surface, no matter whether it could support her weight or not. A monk using this ability can run on a strand of spiderweb, or up a ribbon tied to an arrow, for example. She continually benefits from the effects of the spider climb spell, except that she must move at least 30 feet every round or she falls from any surface that would not normally be possible to stand on. A monk with at least 5 ranks in Balance may even run on water or other liquids, providing she moves at least 15 feet every turn. If in any turn she does not move this distance and is standing on the surface of a liquid, she immediately falls in. These uses of the skill become Extraordinary starting at level 10.

A monk may also run through the air, the firmament itself supporting her footsteps. She gains a fly speed equal to her land speed, with clumsy maneuverability. If she is within reach of a solid surface, she instead has perfect maneuverability. At level 1, she may only fly 10ft, and must begin and end her movement on a solid surface. The distance she may fly increases by 10ft per monk level until level 5, at which point it becomes limited only by her movement speed. From level five onwards, the monk may make a DC 20 Balance check each round to remain in the sky, so long as she moves at least 30 feet each round. If in any round she is flying she does not move 30 feet or she fails the Balance check, she immediately falls. She does not have a stall speed despite the clumsy maneuverability - the 30 feet per round restriction applies instead.

Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Bonus Feat
At 2nd level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she receives whichever feat she did not select. At 3rd level, a monk may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. If she selects Combat Reflexes, at level 14 she receives Improved Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If she selects Deflect Arrows, at level 14 she receives Exceptional Deflection as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select or use them.

Purity of Mind (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting spells and effects. Against Enchantment (charm) and Enchantment (compulsion) effects, the bonus is instead half her class level. This ability counts as Still Mind for the purposes of meeting prerequisites.

Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains a bonus to her speed, as shown on the table. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her mastery of this force allows her unarmed strikes to ignore up to one point of damage reduction per every two monk levels she possesses. Furthermore, her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.

Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness, and her unarmed strikes deal double damage to objects.

Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases. She gains a bonus equal to one third of her monk level on saving throws against supernatural and magical diseases.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 6th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

Mettle (Ex)
At 7th level and higher, a monk can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If she makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), she instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping monk does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Abundant Step (Su)
At 8th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down). If she is within 10ft of a creature who teleports to somewhere within the range of her Abundant Step, she may use this ability as an immediate action to maintain her position relative to them.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Diamond Soul
At 10th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to 10 + her Monk level + her Wisdom modifier. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.
This spell resistance can be raised and/or lowered as a free action. When a monk would be rendered incapacitated or unconscious, they can as a free action denote any number of individuals who may ignore their spell resistance when casting spells with the (harmless) descriptor. When the monk is no longer incapacitated or unconscious, the denoted individuals must resume either attempting to overcome the prestige monk's spell resistance or convincing the prestige monk to lower their spell resistance in order to receive a spell.

Enlightened Strike (Su)
As the monk becomes less attached to the world, so she becomes less able to be affected by magic. All concealment, etherealness, incorperealness, invisibility, and any magical effects that provide an AC bonus or miss chance are half as effective against her attacks - she ignores 2 points of the AC bonus from Mage Armor, for example, and only has a 25% chance to miss an incorporeal opponent. Once per day, she may ignore all such magical protections entirely for a single attack - no protective magic, no matter how potent, can interfere with it, to the point where it will not even set off a Contingency intended to trigger on being attacked.

Diamond Body (Ex)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

Enlightened Perception (Ex)
At 12th level, a monk learns how to see truly by denying herself sight. Any time the monk is completely unable to see, whether from being blindfolded, blinded, being in complete darkness, or simply closing her eyes, she gains 30 foot radius blindsight. Focusing her senses to gain this enhanced perception takes a moment of concentration, and so requires a move action to activate. Once activated, it lasts for as long as the monk cannot see. If she is denied vision through having her eyes closed, she may open them again as a free action that may be taken at any time.

Empty Body (Su)
The monk continues to grow apart from the world, existing within it, but not touching it. A number of times per day equal to her wisdom modifier, she may become completely intangible while moving. She activates this ability as part of a movement action, and so long as she does nothing but move, she is not subject to the laws of the world. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity, may pass through solid objects (including force effects) as if they were insubstantial mist, and is not subject to any form of environmental hazard. As soon as she stops moving, or takes any non-movement action, she immediately becomes tangible again. If she becomes tangible while in a solid object - including another creature - she is shunted to the closest open space, taking 1d6 points of damage for every 5 feet she is moved, and lands prone.

Ascetic Mastery (Ex)
The desires of the body are as nothing to one truly enlightened. At 15th level, a monk no longer needs to sleep, simply requiring a single hour of meditation each night. She may survive on a single drop of water each day, and a small bowl of rice (or equivalent meal) every week. She may hold her breath for a number of minutes equal to twice her Wisdom score, after which point she may make Concentration instead of Constitution checks to continue holding her breath. Further, she only needs to make these checks once per minute, instead of once per round.

Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up. As she ages, she slowly gains an understanding of the approximate time she will die of old age, which becomes more accurate the close she comes to her death. By the time she has a week left to live, she receives perfect knowledge of the time and date of her death (assuming she is not killed earlier).

One with Emptiness (Su)
Her quest for enlightenment almost complete, the monk fades even from the sight of fate itself. She becomes impossible to detect with Divination spells - any attempt to scry on her fails, questions asked of higher powers reveal nothing, and even if the area around the monk is scryed, she simply does not appear.

Foresight (Ex)
At 19th level, the monk permanently gains the benefits of the Foresight spell.

Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. Whenever it would be beneficial, she is treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 15/magic and adamantine, which allows her to ignore the first 15 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical or non-adamantine weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Transcendence of All Things (Su)
The monk has finally attained true enlightenment, and understands how all things are connected. If one is but a small part of the whole, then to affect the one, you must be able to affect all. Once per day, for a single round, the monk may render herself immune to all harm. She does not take damage, automatically passes all saving throws, is under a freedom of movement effect, and is immune to ability damage, ability drain, blinding, confusion, daze, dazzle, deafening, death effects, exhaustion, fascination, fatigue, fear, mind-affecting spells and effects, nausea, paralysis, petrification, polymorph, sickening and stunning, and other negative conditions at the DM's discretion. Activating this ability is a purely mental action, and may be done even while suffering from any of the listed conditions. Activating this ability is a free action that may be performed either on the monk's turn or at the start of combat, regardless of her Initiative score.

While this ability is active, the monk's eyes shine with radiant white light and she is surrounded by a visible brilliant corona of ki. She sheds bright light out to a radius of 100ft, and shadowy illumination for twice that. This light counts as direct sunlight for the purposes of creatures sensitive to sunlight. This light may not be hidden in any way, as it shines through any covering the monk wears. It renders stealth impossible, and on a flat plain at night she is visible for miles.

Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes non-lawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

With thanks to Extra Anchovies and Magikeeper for the wording of some abilities.

Mith
2015-06-12, 06:56 PM
Would the Lightfoot Style keep the Monk from taking Acid damage if they run across the surface of the pool?

I like the fix, although I do not know how balanced the Lightfoot Style is, but it seems sound.

Heliomance
2015-06-12, 07:17 PM
Would the Lightfoot Style keep the Monk from taking Acid damage if they run across the surface of the pool?

I like the fix, although I do not know how balanced the Lightfoot Style is, but it seems sound.

No, but I couldn't remember the standard wording for that, nor where to find it.

Zireael
2015-06-13, 11:54 AM
I like the fix, especially the handwraps. Are they your original idea or did you take it from somewhere?

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-13, 02:22 PM
No, but I couldn't remember the standard wording for that, nor where to find it.

They'd still take 1d6 per round for contact, but not the full 10d6 for immersion.

I don't like that handwraps occupy the Hands item slot, because that blocks out Gloves of Dexterity. It would be better for them to just occupy the weapon slot, similarly to the hand wraps I implemented in my monk rework (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371744-The-Prestige-Monk-PEACH).

Path of Enlightenment is odd. I don't understand the decision behind doubling the AC bonus scaling; AC isn't really an issue that the monk has when they're specced properly. Wis to attack and damage is nice, because it lets non-grappler monks pick up Weapon Finesse, pump Wis and Dex, and leave Str at 10.

Lightfoot Style is nice. The Spider Climb and flight effects probably shouldn't come online until 2 or 3 to make it less dip-friendly.

The bonus feats are kind of nerfed, which is odd. I'd recommend something similar to the PF monk, where they get bonus feats from a slowly expanding list at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18.

Diamond Soul is... strange. The issue with the monk's SR wasn't so much the numbers, it's that it blocks allied spells. Double class level is a bit too much; I recommend instead 10+class level+Wisdom modifier. I added this lengthy but effective workaround to the allied-spells issue in my prestige monk, and you can use it if you want (just mention my name somewhere if you do):

This spell resistance can be raised and/or lowered as a free action. When a monk would be rendered incapacitated or unconscious, they can as a free action denote any number of individuals who may ignore their spell resistance when casting spells with the (harmless) descriptor. When the prestige monk is no longer incapacitated or unconscious, the denoted individuals must resume either attempting to overcome the prestige monk's spell resistance or convincing the prestige monk to lower their spell resistance in order to receive a spell.

Enlightened Strike: I like this. It's Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment, but with half the benefit and no downside. If Power Attack were efficient with unarmed strikes it would be awesome, but sadly PA isn't too great with UAS. The 1/day ability should probably apply for one round so that it stays relevant.

Empty Body: I feel like you should just say "incorporeal" for this. Simpler, and better-balanced.

Perfect Self: Let them be treated as outsiders when it would be beneficial.

Transcendence of All Things: It looks cool, but it's basically just an "I win this one fight" button.

So now that I've looked over the class: how is this high tier 3? They're kind of good at fighting (high accuracy, nothing they get solves their damage issues), and have strong defenses. Flight, spider climb, and passing through walls help their utility. But they're still stuck with a very short list of abilities.

That doesn't make this a bad fix, and it's still in tier 3 somewhere (probably in the mid-low range) but it's not the high T3 of, say, the Beguiler.

Demidos
2015-06-13, 02:55 PM
Still dies horribly to forcecage + quickened cloudkill. Dimension door and incorporeality dont help against solid force effects.
Plus still has nothing to do except full attack each turn, and doesnt have pounce (that I saw, anyway).

Maybe add a touch attack that can absorb magic and turn it into Ki, which can then be used for stunning fist charges, bonuses to skill checks due to their amazing concentration, bonuses to AC, and other monk-y type things.

Mith
2015-06-13, 03:17 PM
What about a feat for Spell Breaker that allows a Monk to attack a solid force spell effect like Force wall and potentially break the spell, thus solving the Force Cage and Quickend Cloudkill strategy? Combine that with a convert spell-to-Ki ability, and I think that would solve that problem. Or is that what is intended with the convert-spell-to-Ki? Draining the Force Cage power to Ki, breaking the spell?

Heliomance
2015-06-13, 07:53 PM
They'd still take 1d6 per round for contact, but not the full 10d6 for immersion.

I don't like that handwraps occupy the Hands item slot, because that blocks out Gloves of Dexterity. It would be better for them to just occupy the weapon slot, similarly to the hand wraps I implemented in my monk rework (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371744-The-Prestige-Monk-PEACH).

Path of Enlightenment is odd. I don't understand the decision behind doubling the AC bonus scaling; AC isn't really an issue that the monk has when they're specced properly. Wis to attack and damage is nice, because it lets non-grappler monks pick up Weapon Finesse, pump Wis and Dex, and leave Str at 10.

Lightfoot Style is nice. The Spider Climb and flight effects probably shouldn't come online until 2 or 3 to make it less dip-friendly.

The bonus feats are kind of nerfed, which is odd. I'd recommend something similar to the PF monk, where they get bonus feats from a slowly expanding list at levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18.

Diamond Soul is... strange. The issue with the monk's SR wasn't so much the numbers, it's that it blocks allied spells. Double class level is a bit too much; I recommend instead 10+class level+Wisdom modifier. I added this lengthy but effective workaround to the allied-spells issue in my prestige monk, and you can use it if you want (just mention my name somewhere if you do):


Enlightened Strike: I like this. It's Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment, but with half the benefit and no downside. If Power Attack were efficient with unarmed strikes it would be awesome, but sadly PA isn't too great with UAS. The 1/day ability should probably apply for one round so that it stays relevant.

Empty Body: I feel like you should just say "incorporeal" for this. Simpler, and better-balanced.

Perfect Self: Let them be treated as outsiders when it would be beneficial.

Transcendence of All Things: It looks cool, but it's basically just an "I win this one fight" button.

So now that I've looked over the class: how is this high tier 3? They're kind of good at fighting (high accuracy, nothing they get solves their damage issues), and have strong defenses. Flight, spider climb, and passing through walls help their utility. But they're still stuck with a very short list of abilities.

That doesn't make this a bad fix, and it's still in tier 3 somewhere (probably in the mid-low range) but it's not the high T3 of, say, the Beguiler.
MIC item combining guidelines let you stick Dexterity on the handwraps just fine, I don't see that's a problem.

The AC increase is because I was under the impression that even with the AC bonus ability, monks still struggled with the lack of armour making them vulnerable.If I was wrong on that count, I can knock it back down.

I did wonder about moving some of the Lightfoot Style abilities a little later. Might shift the spider climb and water walking bits. The flight is probably fine though - at level 1 you can only go 10ft and have to start and end on solid ground - that's basically a glorified jump.

I wouldn't say the bonus feats are nerfed. I took out Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, sure, and I moved the level 1 and 2 sets one level later, but I gave them both Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist instead of making them choose, and those ones you get at level 14? Those are normally Epic feats. I intended that as prety much a strict upgrade.

That's a good point about the SR. I might just use your wording, thanks.

Enlightened Strike I was worried might be too powerful if I made the active last the whole round,what with the ability to bypass Contingencies and whatnot. I was figuring that the way to make it stay relevant into later levels would be to load it up with Stunning Fist and other status effect inducing feats - or even martial strikes - to disable whatever hapless caster you launch it against. If you don't think a full round would be too strong, I'll change it though.

Incorporeality doesn't let you walk through force effects or magical fields of fire. It would be a significant nerf.

Good point about Empty Body, I'lldefinitely make that change.

Transcendence of All Things is a capstone. My feeling on capstones is that they should be powerful, because how often do you actually stick with a class for 20 levels? You don't get it until level 20, and if enemies at that level can't focus fire on the rest of your team or stall for a few rounds until it wears off (it's not like it lasts for long, and it does take a standard action to activate) they deserve everything they get. It's a purely defensive ability- it's not like it lets you kill any faster.

I was just aiming for T3 in general. My estimate of high T3 was based on looking at what I'd given it and going "wow, there's some seriously powerful stuff in there". I don't think they're high T3 because they have a lot of options, I think they have enough options to be T3, and the options that they have are very strong. The damage issue is helped both by Wis to damage and by the fact that they can now Flurry as a standard action. Oh, and the full BAB too.


Still dies horribly to forcecage + quickened cloudkill. Dimension door and incorporeality dont help against solid force effects.
Plus still has nothing to do except full attack each turn, and doesnt have pounce (that I saw, anyway).

Maybe add a touch attack that can absorb magic and turn it into Ki, which can then be used for stunning fist charges, bonuses to skill checks due to their amazing concentration, bonuses to AC, and other monk-y type things.

Dimension Door gets you past a Forcecage just fine, as does this version of Empty Body. I specifically didn't call it incorporeality, it lets you walk through a Forcecage as if it wasn't there. And force effects have never blocked teleportation.

It doesn't have pounce, no, but I did take off the full attack only restriction on Flurry of Blows, so they can get three attacks on a standard action.

Extra Anchovies
2015-06-14, 01:07 AM
The AC increase is because I was under the impression that even with the AC bonus ability, monks still struggled with the lack of armour making them vulnerable.If I was wrong on that count, I can knock it back down.

They can still wear Bracers of Armor. I'd push it back down to 1/4 class level.


Enlightened Strike I was worried might be too powerful if I made the active last the whole round,what with the ability to bypass Contingencies and whatnot. I was figuring that the way to make it stay relevant into later levels would be to load it up with Stunning Fist and other status effect inducing feats - or even martial strikes - to disable whatever hapless caster you launch it against. If you don't think a full round would be too strong, I'll change it though.

It's 1/day and grants the benefits of two feats which you already have half the benefit of anyways. Make it last a full round.

Also, it's worth noting that there's no way to make it Contingency-proof. If, for example, a wizard has a contingent teleport with the trigger condition being "when I am reduced to less than one-quarter of my normal maximum hit points", and an attack made during the Enlightened Strike active reduces them to below that threshold, the contingency would still go off, because the trigger condition isn't based on being attacked, it's based on having your HP reduced. You'd have to add a lot of words to the ability to make it contingency-proof, and then someone would still find a way to slip past it.

Besides, although it's an interesting concept, it's not good for the game. Wizards are OP, yes, but that doesn't mean we should design every other class such that they can take away all of the wizard's toys. We should bring the wizard's power down directly, not by instituting hard counters to their more useful spells. Better to fix the source of the balance problem than to keep patching it.


Incorporeality doesn't let you walk through force effects or magical fields of fire. It would be a significant nerf.

Maybe Etherealness, then, with a specific ability to ignore abjurations and force effects? It's generally better to use an already-written condition than to make one of your own. "Not subject to the laws of the world" is, despite the few example cases given, very vague. Does that mean they ignore gravity? Do they stay in place while the planet rotates and moves away from them? I don't actually believe that the answer to either of those questions is "yes", but they're still up in the air by the ability's current writing.

Oh, and it automatically ends when they cease moving for the round. Might want to fix that by setting the end condition to be only "as soon as she takes any non-movement action."


Transcendence of All Things is a capstone. My feeling on capstones is that they should be powerful, because how often do you actually stick with a class for 20 levels? You don't get it until level 20, and if enemies at that level can't focus fire on the rest of your team or stall for a few rounds until it wears off (it's not like it lasts for long, and it does take a standard action to activate) they deserve everything they get. It's a purely defensive ability- it's not like it lets you kill any faster.

A 20th level monk with any self-respect will probably have, what, 22 Wisdom? That's 3 rounds in which your enemies can't touch you and you can just wale on them without fear of counterattack. If that isn't an "I win this fight" button, I don't know what is.

But that's not the point I was making about it. My point was that it's boring. Compare to, say, the Warblade's Stance Mastery, or the Dread Necromancer's Lich Transformation. I'd rather have one of those, which are both flavorful and powerful abilities, instead of an "I win this fight" button.


I was just aiming for T3 in general. My estimate of high T3 was based on looking at what I'd given it and going "wow, there's some seriously powerful stuff in there". I don't think they're high T3 because they have a lot of options, I think they have enough options to be T3, and the options that they have are very strong.

I disagree with your assessment of the class. They've got some nice mobility options, and they can fight sort of well, but that's it. One particularly big concern is their still MAD (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Without strength they can't power attack and their damage suffers (and their damage still suffers even if they do take Power Attack, since they're stuck with the 1-for-1 exchange rate and can't make good use of the various PA multipliers), without dexterity they have poor AC, without constitution they have poor HP, and without wisdom half their class features don't work.

Magikeeper
2015-06-15, 03:48 PM
Well, it's certainly some kind of T3

Stuff:

Lightfoot Style: A fair number of races have a base movement speed of 20'. I think using that as the minimum movement speed would be more appropriate.

AC: Everyone struggles with lack of armor at higher levels unless they optimize the crap out of it or.. anyway, I think 1/2 monk level is fine. 1/3 if you're really worried about it. I notice Extra Anchovies talks about the class being MAD in the same post he suggests reducing the AC bonus (that could cover for a monk with low dex). :P

Empty Body: "Sounds just like incorporeality but technically isn't! Also, no mention of how this interacts with force effects." is a quick way to incite rules arguments in a play group. If this is supposed to bypass force effects, fit that into the description somewhere. Something like "Unlike a merely incorporeal creature, this movement can be used to bypass force effects and the like."

Diamond Soul: 2x class level is rather weak at level 10, and in some groups very strong at level 20. I support the 10+Monk Level+Wisdom modifier suggestion. Alternately, 15 + Monk Level.

Purity of Mind: Note at the end that this counts as Still Mind for meeting prerequisites. A lot of prestige classes and such call it out specifically.

Abundant Step: Dimension Door doesn't let you take any actions until your next turn. I guess that works with the immediate action ability. Although maybe change the ability to play nice with everything else the monk wants to be doing?
Abundant Step (Su)
At 8th level a monk learns how to magically slip between spaces. The monk may, a number of times per day equal to 3 + her wisdom modifier, teleport a number of feet equal to twice her fastest movement speed as a swift and/or move action. If she is within 10ft of a creature who teleports to somewhere within the range of her Abundant Step, she may use this ability as an immediate action to maintain her position relative to them.

Timeless Body: Can you add that a monk can roughly sense when their time is going to be up? Perhaps the sense grows more precise as they near the end. That fits a lot of stories and such, and avoids the situation where Bob the monk is in the middle of eating cereal when BAM! Face hits the bowl, Bob's dead.

Transcendence of All Things: What kind of action is this? Sounds like it wants to be an immediate action that can be done while flat-footed. Being invincible for that many rounds.. could work in some systems but in D&D - especially high-level D&D - is a lot. So, suggested changes:
> Specify Immediate Action, specify that it can be done while flat-footed.
> Make it once per encounter with a duration of 1 round.

Although, regarding the flat-footed thing, you could just give the monk the equivalent of Foresight 24/7 at level 19... that'd be fitting with the rest of the class, IMO.

Ki Strike: It currently misses most of the common DRs (Silver, Cold Iron, and Good/Evil). Perhaps have it go: Magic and Silver -> Lawful and Cold Iron -> Adamentine and 2x Object? It still doesn't help with Good/Evil, but there are a number of ways to bypass those I suppose. DR/Cold Iron is almost always on chaotic creatures, and alchemical silver is tied to magic.

Heliomance
2015-06-16, 10:36 AM
Well, it's certainly some kind of T3

Stuff:

Lightfoot Style: A fair number of races have a base movement speed of 20'. I think using that as the minimum movement speed would be more appropriate.

By level 5, they have the +10ft movespeed needed to make 30ft in a move action. And by the time they can reliably make a DC20 Balance check, even even races with a 10ft movespeed will be able to make it. Is it really a problem?


AC: Everyone struggles with lack of armor at higher levels unless they optimize the crap out of it or.. anyway, I think 1/2 monk level is fine. 1/3 if you're really worried about it. I notice Extra Anchovies talks about the class being MAD in the same post he suggests reducing the AC bonus (that could cover for a monk with low dex). :P
Yeah, I noticed that as well. Part of my philosophy for this rewrite was to make the Monk less MAD by putting a heavy focus on Wis.


Empty Body: "Sounds just like incorporeality but technically isn't! Also, no mention of how this interacts with force effects." is a quick way to incite rules arguments in a play group. If this is supposed to bypass force effects, fit that into the description somewhere. Something like "Unlike a merely incorporeal creature, this movement can be used to bypass force effects and the like."

Sounds good, I'll add that in. Doesn't incorporeality have something about not being able to go more than 5' into a solid object? I don't want to inherit that, either.


Diamond Soul: 2x class level is rather weak at level 10, and in some groups very strong at level 20. I support the 10+Monk Level+Wisdom modifier suggestion. Alternately, 15 + Monk Level.
Okay, 10+level+Wis mod sounds good then.


Purity of Mind: Note at the end that this counts as Still Mind for meeting prerequisites. A lot of prestige classes and such call it out specifically.
Good catch!


Abundant Step: Dimension Door doesn't let you take any actions until your next turn. I guess that works with the immediate action ability. Although maybe change the ability to play nice with everything else the monk wants to be doing?
Abundant Step (Su)
At 8th level a monk learns how to magically slip between spaces. The monk may, a number of times per day equal to 3 + her wisdom modifier, teleport a number of feet equal to twice her fastest movement speed as a swift and/or move action. If she is within 10ft of a creature who teleports to somewhere within the range of her Abundant Step, she may use this ability as an immediate action to maintain her position relative to them.
I think I probably want to keep the standard DDoor restriction, for consistency's sake. If you really want to be able to act after 'porting, go Shadowpouncer. Empty Body also gives high mobility without the turn ending.


Timeless Body: Can you add that a monk can roughly sense when their time is going to be up? Perhaps the sense grows more precise as they near the end. That fits a lot of stories and such, and avoids the situation where Bob the monk is in the middle of eating cereal when BAM! Face hits the bowl, Bob's dead.
Nice idea, yeah, I like that.


Transcendence of All Things: What kind of action is this? Sounds like it wants to be an immediate action that can be done while flat-footed. Being invincible for that many rounds.. could work in some systems but in D&D - especially high-level D&D - is a lot. So, suggested changes:
> Specify Immediate Action, specify that it can be done while flat-footed.
> Make it once per encounter with a duration of 1 round.
No action listed -> defaults to standard. I think an immediate action that can be done while flat-footed is a bit much, really. This way, it takes a little preparation, so the enemies can respond and choose to not attack you, rather than you just no-selling an ambush or something.


Although, regarding the flat-footed thing, you could just give the monk the equivalent of Foresight 24/7 at level 19... that'd be fitting with the rest of the class, IMO.
I did want something to go at level 19. I'll think about it.


Ki Strike: It currently misses most of the common DRs (Silver, Cold Iron, and Good/Evil). Perhaps have it go: Magic and Silver -> Lawful and Cold Iron -> Adamentine and 2x Object? It still doesn't help with Good/Evil, but there are a number of ways to bypass those I suppose. DR/Cold Iron is almost always on chaotic creatures, and alchemical silver is tied to magic.

Game balance wise you're right, but it doesn't make an awful lot of narrative sense. Possibly give an ability to ignore DR a certain number of times per day?

Magikeeper
2015-06-18, 08:16 PM
@Flurry of Blows: I know your intent is for it to be applicable to any attack, but the wording is rather unclear. People familiar with old monk might assume it is a part of a full attack.. as written I'm not sure what action type it is. Defaulting to standard would mean taking the extra attack is a standard action, since it doesn't include full attacking.

I would suggest using Snap Kick's wording from ToB, actually, since that is basically what your flurry is (aside from using 1x strength instead of 1/2 strength).

Once per round, whenever an unarmored monk attacks with one or special monk weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even an attack of opportunity) she may choose to make a flurry of blows. If she does, all of her attack rolls that round receive a -2 penalty to hit (including AoOs made later in the same round). In exchange, she makes one additional attack with any of her special monk weapons at her highest base attack bonus. A monk always applies her strength bonus (instead of 1.5x or 1/2 her strength bonus) to all of her attacks when making a flurry of blows.

At level 5 the penalty to attack rolls is reduced to -1 and at level 9 no penalty is received.

The following count as special monk weapons: Unarmed strike, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham. Other weapons may count as special monk weapons with DM permission.

----------------------------------

There. That also solves the quarterstaff issue without needing its own section and clears up the debate regarding flurry and natural weapons. The bit about making unarmed strikes with your hands full should be under unarmed strike, really.



By level 5, they have the +10ft movespeed needed to make 30ft in a move action. And by the time they can reliably make a DC20 Balance check, even even races with a 10ft movespeed will be able to make it. Is it really a problem?

1. Is there any reason to not make it 20?
2. 4 ranks + 4 dex + 2 tool = +10 at level 1. DC for the spider climb effect is 15. That's 75% chance each round at level one without trying very hard, and 100% chance of passing the check out of combat by taking 10. In fact, 4 ranks + 1 dex mod would be enough for out of combat spider climb.


Sounds good, I'll add that in. Doesn't incorporeality have something about not being able to go more than 5' into a solid object? I don't want to inherit that, either.

It does. Not sure if specifying that is really needed if the ability already notes it isn't <merely> becoming incorporeal.


No action listed -> defaults to standard. I think an immediate action that can be done while flat-footed is a bit much, really.

Compared to being able to set up ambushes where you are invincible the entire encounter*? I think turning an ambush into a real fight (1-round reactive invincibility) / surviving a crazy ability for a round does more for interesting/fun gameplay than that.

*I haven't played/ran many games at those levels, and they tended to be higher powered games, but I'd still be surprised if 1/2 wis mod isn't enough for most fights even in more middling games.


Game balance wise you're right, but it doesn't make an awful lot of narrative sense. Possibly give an ability to ignore DR a certain number of times per day?

I think whatever anti-DR ability they get needs to be at-will. This version of monk is still reliant on large numbers of middling attacks. Perhaps..

(Suggestion just adds the second line, otherwise the same)
Ki Strike: At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her mastery of this force allows her unarmed strikes to ignore up to one point of damage reduction per every two monk levels she possesses. Furthermore, her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.

Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness, and her unarmed strikes deal double damage to objects.

That's not enough to make seeking other DR-busting methods worthless but it should be enough to not be crippled without them, IMO.

Heliomance
2015-06-19, 06:47 PM
Hrm, just had a look over Lightfoot Style, and I need to reword that a bit. I intended for the "run along a ribbon" bit and the spider climb bit to be separate. The balance check doesn't apply to spider climbing, and the movement bit doesn't apply to balancing on something impossible. I'll try and remember to make the actual changes this weekend. I think I'll probably make your changes to Ki Strike and Flurry, and cut down the duration of Transcendence of All Things. Still not sure if I'm comfortable making that an immediate action, though.

Heliomance
2015-07-07, 04:02 AM
Made the suggested changes at last. Updates to Flurry of Blows, Lightfoot Style (mostly just clarification), Purity of Mind, Ki Strike, Diamond Soul, Enlightened Strike, Empty Body (mentioned you can go through Force effects), Timeless Body (knowledge of death), Perfect Self ("whenever it would be beneficial"), and Transcendence of All Things. Also added Foresight at level 19.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-07, 08:48 PM
This reminds me a lot of my first monk fix- homebrewing to fix the monk is like a rite of passage around here. :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, it's still not Tier 3. The tiers aren't just about power, but also versatility. The definition of tier 3 is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

To me this monk fix looks like its good at fighting, and that's about it. Solid Tier 4 in other words. The 6 skill points per level don't mean much since you're going to need to stack Con and Wisdom if you want to participate in combat at all, and the skill list is missing a couple of the heavy hitters like Disable Device and Use Magic Item.
Without armor of any kind, even the vanilla Monk's AC bonus, you'll still be squishy no matter how big you make the Hit Dice.

There's still types of fighting where the monk is weak such as in situations requiring AOE, and even the things you do to make him good against casters seem like they are tailored to fight blasters (aka the un-optimized casters). One of the reasons that magic is so powerful is that there are really no defenses against it except to hit back first; that's why high-level optimized games are basically rocket tag. This isn't necessarily a thing that needs to be fixed with the monk since it's a system-wide issue, but no competent wizard will tremble in fear at the thought of Monk-assassins.


I hope this criticism doesn't make you feel bad- there's nothing inherently wrong with a Tier 4 class in a world where most other classes are Teir 3 or lower, especially since many campaigns spend the majority of their play-time fighting. But you should realize that the "more bigger numbers in combat" school of design is a trap when it comes to brewing classes that are truly diverse.
As an example, take a quick look at my second monk fix: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266147-Monk-Fix-2-0
Specifically the Path-abilities on the second post. Some of them are a little outdated, and the class has a few wonky spots I'm looking to smooth out, but overall it gives a fair example of the kind of things that you might want to consider incorporating.

Heliomance
2015-07-08, 01:22 AM
This reminds me a lot of my first monk fix- homebrewing to fix the monk is like a rite of passage around here. :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, it's still not Tier 3. The tiers aren't just about power, but also versatility. The definition of tier 3 is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

To me this monk fix looks like its good at fighting, and that's about it. Solid Tier 4 in other words. The 6 skill points per level don't mean much since you're going to need to stack Con and Wisdom if you want to participate in combat at all, and the skill list is missing a couple of the heavy hitters like Disable Device and Use Magic Item.
Without armor of any kind, even the vanilla Monk's AC bonus, you'll still be squishy no matter how big you make the Hit Dice.

Then how do the ToB classes qualify? This is just as good out of combat as they are, I think. The abilities - Lightfoot Style especially - give utility, and Tongue of the Sun and Moon is a unique utility ability that's been moved down to a point where it's actually useful.

Also, the AC bonus is still there, and is significantly stronger than the vanilla monk. It's just been renamed Path of Enlightenment.


There's still types of fighting where the monk is weak such as in situations requiring AOE, and even the things you do to make him good against casters seem like they are tailored to fight blasters (aka the un-optimized casters). One of the reasons that magic is so powerful is that there are really no defenses against it except to hit back first; that's why high-level optimized games are basically rocket tag. This isn't necessarily a thing that needs to be fixed with the monk since it's a system-wide issue, but no competent wizard will tremble in fear at the thought of Monk-assassins.

Improved Evasion is mostly useful against blasters. Mettle, a useful implementation of SR, ability to ignore BFC while moving, ability to ignore magical defenses, and ability to follow tactical teleportation is generically useful. What am I missing counters to, let me know and I can think of things to add.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-08, 09:45 AM
Then how do the ToB classes qualify? This is just as good out of combat as they are, I think. The abilities - Lightfoot Style especially - give utility, and Tongue of the Sun and Moon is a unique utility ability that's been moved down to a point where it's actually useful.
The ToB classes are the sources of MANY arguments regarding where they should fit in the Tier system. My personal belief is that most of the classes are tier-4-ish, and most people mistakenly think they are tier 3 only because they are so much more powerful in combat and so much easier to play well at high levels without cheesy amounts of optimization than the standard melee classes.

Like I said- in a campaign with a lot of fighting (which is most of them) then tier 4 classes can feel plenty useful. But I'm not really seeing much role for this monk outside of combat, and even though Maneuvers and Stances are less powerful and diverse than spells, they still offer more options than your Monk does. Most of the special monk weapons kind of suck (unless you're using splatbooks, maybe), so you're going to be limited to a high-AC/mobility TWF style striker.

The class I'd actually compare your fix to is the Warlock- decent power, marginal versatility in his chosen role, pretty SAD, and with good sustainability.


Also, the AC bonus is still there, and is significantly stronger than the vanilla monk. It's just been renamed Path of Enlightenment.
You're right- sorry I missed that.


Improved Evasion is mostly useful against blasters. Mettle, a useful implementation of SR, ability to ignore BFC while moving, ability to ignore magical defenses, and ability to follow tactical teleportation is generically useful. What am I missing counters to, let me know and I can think of things to add.
The problem is that spells that even allow for SR tend to be on the weaker side of things. The Wizard isn't powerful because he can fly around and snipe at Dragon with magic acid, the Wizard is powerful because he can divine the location of the dragon's lair and can kill the dragon in a dozen different ways without ever leaving the safety of his inter-dimensional fortress, then send his magically conjured servants to retrieve it's treasure.

For example, Time Stop affects the Wizard, not everything around him, so it allows neither a Save nor SR. Shapechance can negate your melee-combat advantages if the Wizard absolutely needs to go toe-to-toe with you. This isn't really something that can be fixed from a class-perspective unless you want to include an ability that can stop casters from casting entirely, and you still need to make sure you're in range to use it.

Heliomance
2015-07-08, 10:47 AM
The ToB classes are the sources of MANY arguments regarding where they should fit in the Tier system. My personal belief is that most of the classes are tier-4-ish, and most people mistakenly think they are tier 3 only because they are so much more powerful in combat and so much easier to play well at high levels without cheesy amounts of optimization than the standard melee classes.

Like I said- in a campaign with a lot of fighting (which is most of them) then tier 4 classes can feel plenty useful. But I'm not really seeing much role for this monk outside of combat, and even though Maneuvers and Stances are less powerful and diverse than spells, they still offer more options than your Monk does. Most of the special monk weapons kind of suck (unless you're using splatbooks, maybe), so you're going to be limited to a high-AC/mobility TWF style striker.

The class I'd actually compare your fix to is the Warlock- decent power, marginal versatility in his chosen role, pretty SAD, and with good sustainability.


You're right- sorry I missed that.


The problem is that spells that even allow for SR tend to be on the weaker side of things. The Wizard isn't powerful because he can fly around and snipe at Dragon with magic acid, the Wizard is powerful because he can divine the location of the dragon's lair and can kill the dragon in a dozen different ways without ever leaving the safety of his inter-dimensional fortress, then send his magically conjured servants to retrieve it's treasure.

For example, Time Stop affects the Wizard, not everything around him, so it allows neither a Save nor SR. Shapechance can negate your melee-combat advantages if the Wizard absolutely needs to go toe-to-toe with you. This isn't really something that can be fixed from a class-perspective unless you want to include an ability that can stop casters from casting entirely, and you still need to make sure you're in range to use it.

Not really seeing the problem with Shapechange - if they turn into something big and gribbly, you just step up and go toe-to-toe with them like you would a monster. As for Time Stop and the like - a high level ability that lets you take Con damage to be able to move fast enough to keep up with Time Stop, Temporal Acceleration, and any similar effect sounds like it might actually work quite well.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-08, 10:58 AM
Not really seeing the problem with Shapechange - if they turn into something big and gribbly, you just step up and go toe-to-toe with them like you would a monster. As for Time Stop and the like - a high level ability that lets you take Con damage to be able to move fast enough to keep up with Time Stop, Temporal Acceleration, and any similar effect sounds like it might actually work quite well.
It's not a problem for the monk, per-se (though some of the monster choices can be kinda OP) but it demonstrates the Wizard's level of versatility.

If you manage to track down the wizard, navigate through any traps he's set, have stopped him from teleporting away, and he's realized you can dodge all the damage he's slinging, then with a single spell (of which the Wizard can know and infinite amount and easily memorize 20-30 per day) he can essentially match your entire class at the thing it's supposed to be best at. By contrast, there's no way a Monk can summon minions, mind-control his enemies, scry at things hundreds of miles away, drain a target's lifeforce, etc.

ComaVision
2015-07-08, 11:28 AM
I think comparing a potential T3 to a T1 is entirely fruitless.

That being said, I think the ToB classes are T3 because a lot of maneuvers have out of combat utility.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-08, 11:32 AM
I think comparing a potential T3 to a T1 is entirely fruitless.
It's relevant because OP said that one of his goals was to make Monk's have an anti-caster aspect.


That being said, I think the ToB classes are T3 because a lot of maneuvers have out of combat utility.
Fair enough- what kind of things where you thinking of?

ComaVision
2015-07-08, 12:35 PM
It's relevant because OP said that one of his goals was to make Monk's have an anti-caster aspect.
So compare its defenses to the Dread Necromancer, and Beguiler abilities.

Fair enough- what kind of things where you thinking of?
Mountain Hammer, Iron Heart Surge, maneuvers that let you summon creatures or teleport through shadows. I'm sure someone with more familiarity with ToB could list a lot more.

Deepbluediver
2015-07-08, 12:42 PM
So compare its defenses to the Dread Necromancer, and Beguiler abilities.
I'm not sure what you mean by that- I mentioned before that the most powerful types of spells are the ones that there is not specific defense against.


Mountain Hammer, Iron Heart Surge, maneuvers that let you summon creatures or teleport through shadows. I'm sure someone with more familiarity with ToB could list a lot more.
Most of it still seems related to dungeon-delving, but I'll accept that they can take the place of some skill-checks, assuming you can find a way to have it help out your teammates as well. I don't know of any ToB maneuvers that summon minions, but I'm not an expert with ToB either.

ComaVision
2015-07-08, 01:03 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by that- I mentioned before that the most powerful types of spells are the ones that there is not specific defense against.
Yeah but examples of those spells from the Wizard spell list is irrelevant. But maybe there's potential for a X uses/day ability to attempt mentally interrupting a spell, similar to counterspelling.


Most of it still seems related to dungeon-delving, but I'll accept that they can take the place of some skill-checks, assuming you can find a way to have it help out your teammates as well. I don't know of any ToB maneuvers that summon minions, but I'm not an expert with ToB either.
Distracting Ember is a first level Desert Wind maneuver. I'm not sure if there's more or not.