The Urge to Theurge

[AvatarVecna]

Hi! I'm putting together a theurge build. Basically, the base is Gray Elf Archivist/Wizard; what's the earliest I can get into Mystic Theurge? I'm looking to play this from about level 5 onward, and I'm having trouble cheesing my way in with prepared casters before level 7. Help! :smalleek:

[Extra Anchovies]

Earliest entry is level 5. Wizard 1/Archivist 3, with Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane p. 181).

[meemaas]

You can actually make it in by level 4 using an Illumian with the Improved Sigil Krau feat. Heighten first level spells you know as both classes to second level and you've got it.

[Xervous]

A quick foray into the world of theurges brought to my attention the feat Alternate Spell Source from Dragon 325. With this you can prepare the 2nd level spell from Precocious apprentice as a divine spell. The skill requirement keeps you from entering before level 4 so you just pick up another level of whatever class you want.

This way you can enter with any race you prefer.

There might be an issue with casting that spell with an effective CL of zero but I haven't turned up anything that explicitly says you can't.

--

Additionally, if the trackless step racial ability of Bamboo Spirit Folk (from Oriental Adventures) can be used to qualify for Arcane Hierophant... that's an all expenses paid ride up to level 20. 19/18 casting for two feats+racial restriction isn't half bad. Though this depends entirely on the ruling of Bamboo Spirit Folk

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can enter with Wizard 1/ Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) 1/ Archivist 1 with Sanctum Spell, which is technically ECL 2.

[Troacctid]

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work, since if you read it as giving you the ability to cast 2nd level spells, then you also immediately lose its benefit. ("When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above"...so either you're not able to cast 2nd level spells, or you are able, and then immediately are no longer able.)

It's much better to use a Heighten-based method such as Improved Krau, as the rules are more solid and it works for both sides.


You can enter with Wizard 1/ Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) 1/ Archivist 1 with Sanctum Spell, which is technically ECL 2.

If we're counting Bloodline levels that way, the earliest you could do it would be Sha'ir 1/Bloodline 2 (using an NPC casting of psychic reformation to reallocate skill points). I probably wouldn't recommend that, though. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

Elf is actually part of the concept I want to keep, so Illumian is out, and I don't understand bloodlines enough to build a character with them. I think I've found something that works though...

Race: Gray Elf
Levels: Cleric 1 (Cloistered Cleric)/Wizard 1 (Elven Generalist)/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +3

Travel Domain from Cleric

Feats are Heighten Spell (ECL 1), Versatile Spellcaster (ECL 3), and Endurance (ECL 6). After that, my feats are whatever I want.

Use the Cleric's spontaneous conversion casting to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, and then I can use VS on arcane and divine casting. I'll run this by the DM; if they agree that this works, then that's the build I'll go with. If they don't...TBH I might just end up going straight Wizard rather than trying to cheese my way into theurge anymore than I've already done.

With this build, at level 5/10/15/20, this has me casting as Cleric 1/1/1/1, Wizard 3/7/12/17, and Archivist 3/7/12/17. It's not a perfect build, but it leaves me Int-SAD, which this character kind of needs to be, while also letting me reach dual-9s.

[meemaas]

Elf is actually part of the concept I want to keep, so Illumian is out, and I don't understand bloodlines enough to build a character with them. I think I've found something that works though...

Race: Gray Elf
Levels: Cleric 1 (Cloistered Cleric)/Wizard 1 (Elven Generalist)/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +3

Travel Domain from Cleric

Feats are Heighten Spell (ECL 1), Versatile Spellcaster (ECL 3), and Endurance (ECL 6). After that, my feats are whatever I want.

Use the Cleric's spontaneous conversion casting to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, and then I can use VS on arcane and divine casting. I'll run this by the DM; if they agree that this works, then that's the build I'll go with. If they don't...TBH I might just end up going straight Wizard rather than trying to cheese my way into theurge anymore than I've already done.

With this build, at level 5/10/15/20, this has me casting as Cleric 1/1/1/1, Wizard 3/7/12/17, and Archivist 3/7/12/17. It's not a perfect build, but it leaves me Int-SAD, which this character kind of needs to be, while also letting me reach dual-9s.

There's a problem with that, namely that you cannot progress Mystic Theurge past level 10. Unless you've got another Theurge class to use, you'll be capped at level 13 for dual progression.

[Zaydos]

There's a problem with that, namely that you cannot progress Mystic Theurge past level 10. Unless you've got another Theurge class to use, you'll be capped at level 13 for dual progression.

The quoted build included 10 levels of Arcane Hierophant which would cover the second Theurge class.

[Troacctid]

Having to dip into two classes that don't progress your casting (Cleric and Wildrunner) kind of defeats the purpose of early entry. I'm not a fan.

I don't think it's worth twisting the build into knots like that to stay SAD when you could just stick with a medium Wisdom score, use your divine half for spells that don't require a save, and not even worry about it. (You have ten bazillion spell slots already, so who cares about bonus spells?) Just use Druid instead of Archivist + Cleric and the build should be better overall.

[AvatarVecna]

That's why my build has Mystic Theurg 6 and Arcane Hierophant 10.

[AvatarVecna]

Having to dip into two classes that don't progress your casting (Cleric and Wildrunner) kind of defeats the purpose of early entry. I'm not a fan.

I don't think it's worth twisting the build into knots like that to stay SAD when you could just stick with a medium Wisdom score, use your divine half for spells that don't require a save, and not even worry about it. (You have ten bazillion spell slots already, so who cares about bonus spells?) Just use Druid instead of Archivist + Cleric and the build should be better overall.

Druid doesn't really fit the character concept, though: Arcane Hierophant in only in there because I need another theurge class. In regards to the divine casting, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, or Favored Soul could all work. My normal method of pulling off a double-9 theurge build is to use Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest. TBH, if it weren't for Ur-Priest requiring Evil alignment, the usual Wizard/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge build would be fine. Hell, the character could work as a Neutral, but full on Evil...it could work, but the character's never really been evil in my characterization, despite being a theurge necromancer.

[Troacctid]

You're going to have wild shape and an animal companion anyway--might as well embrace it.

[AvatarVecna]

You're going to have wild shape and an animal companion anyway--might as well embrace it.

No, Arcane Hierophant lets me choose one of my animal companions to keep and advances any wild shape I already have; if I have neither, it doesn't grant me either.

[Extra Anchovies]

No, Arcane Hierophant lets me choose one of my animal companions to keep and advances any wild shape I already have; if I have neither, it doesn't grant me either.

Whether it grants Wild Shape is questionable, but it seems like it does.

Wild Shape (Su): If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape. However, you add your arcane hierophant level to your druid level and gain the wild shape ability of a druid of the resulting level. For example, a character who is a 3rd-level wizard/3rd-level druid/4th-level arcane hierophant has the wild shape ability of a 7th-level druid. If you are not a druid, (for example, if you entered the class as a wizard/ranger), you do not gain the ability to wild shape.
So the ability first says that characters who can't already wild shape don't gain wild shape from class levels. However, it also describes a wizard 3/druid 3 (a character without wild shape) gaining wild shape from Arcane Hierophant levels. So if you have druid levels they stack with AH levels to determine whether you have wild shape and what it can do, but if you don't have druid levels you can't get wild shape from it. The first sentence seems (to me) to mean "If you do not have levels in a class that would eventually grant wild shape, you gain no new ability to wild shape".

You're right about animal companions, though.

[dextercorvia]

How about Metamagic School Focus Heighten?

[Anthrowhale]

Dex's suggestion should work with Wizard 1/Archivist 2. I'd also suggest at least putting off the level of wildrunner. Arcane Heirophant is only very marginally better than Mystic Theurge---never enough to merit loss of a level of spellcasting.

[AvatarVecna]

Dex's suggestion should work with Wizard 1/Archivist 2. I'd also suggest at least putting off the level of wildrunner. Arcane Heirophant is only very marginally better than Mystic Theurge---never enough to merit loss of a level of spellcasting.

That's a good point. So what do I do when I reach 14th lvl and can't take Mystic Theurge anymore?

[dextercorvia]

That's a good point. So what do I do when I reach 14th lvl and can't take Mystic Theurge anymore?

Legacy Champion

Wizard1/Archivist2/Mystic Theurge10/Legacy Champion5/Archivist2 gets you Wizard15/Archivist18 casting.

[Anthrowhale]

That's a good point. So what do I do when I reach 14th lvl and can't take Mystic Theurge anymore?

Then, you take wildrunner maybe. This way you are at -1/-2 caster level rather than -2/-3 over levels 7-13.

[Anthrowhale]

One more optimization, just for fun.

First take Wizard 1/Archivist 2 with Heighten Spell + Metamagic school focus
Then Mystic Theurge 10 for Wizard 11/Archivist 12 casting. Pick up Endurance at level 12 and purchase Survival 8 cross-class (requires character level 13) + misc wildrunner skill tax.

Add Wildrunner 1.

Then go on a rebuild quest and convert a level of Archivist into a level of Arcane Hierophant. It's legal: you still qualify for all prestige classes and now have Wizard 12/Archivist 12 casting. Now, take 6 more levels of Arcane Hierophant.

You end with Wizard 18/Archivist 18 casting, which is only -2/-2 to casting.

That's decent. -1/-3 can be achieved via Druid 3/Wizard 1. -1/-1 is required for dual casting and I don't believe -1/-2 is feasible since trackless step requires at least 3 levels in a spellcasting class (-2 to the other side) or 1 level in a non-casting class (-1/-1 to each side). (Of course, better yet become possible with fast-advancing classes.)

[DarkSonic1337]

When using the PHB2 retraining rules you can only make changes that would be valid at the time that you acquired the original ability/feat/class/whatever

[thethird]

Since you are going elf the bamboo spirit folk is automatically not ok.

I would do the following
(Silvanesti) Elf
Domain Elven Generalist 1 (using the martial wizard acf, to not have two sets of scribe scroll consider martial study (shadow hand) to get hide as a class skill, and the animal companion acf because as a AH you want one and don't want a familiar) / Archivist 2
With spontaneous summoner (complete divine) / versatile spellcaster (races of the dragon). Just use two 1st level spells to cast a 2nd level spell that is inscribed in your spellbook or prayerbook.
From there you can go mystic theurge

If you are good at dodging books Aerenei focus will make survival a class skill for easy entry into wildrunner (otherwise it's kind of hard to get in at a reasonable level) Otherwise I suggest you take apprentice woodsman (but you will need flaws)

[Anthrowhale]

... you can only make changes that would be valid at the time that you acquired the original ability/feat/class/whatever

Actually, it says:


... if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new to your character you must be able to demonstrate that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his remaining class levels.

So in this case, Arcane Hierophant can be qualified for with Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT 10/Wildrunner 1.

The domain, martial, and animal companion wizard variants are all good suggestions. Level rebuilding also applies to up to 3 class levels so you can get:

Wizard 1/Archivist 2/MT 10/Wildrunner 1 -> Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT 8/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 3 to boost the animal companion and if you delay until level 16 or do another rebuild, you can reach AH 10 before level 20.

[paranoidbox]

I'm not really able to add anything useful, but I did want to say that the title of this thread wins the award of best word play of this week. Congrats!

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not really able to add anything useful, but I did want to say that the title of this thread wins the award of best word play of this week. Congrats!

I'd love to be able to claim credit for it, but not only have I seen this phrase used elsewhere, I'm pretty sure this particular pun has existed for as long as the Mystic Theurge has.

[paranoidbox]

I'd love to be able to claim credit for it, but not only have I seen this phrase used elsewhere, I'm pretty sure this particular pun has existed for as long as the Mystic Theurge has.

Hah, I guess that doesn't surprise me. Still, I hadn't seen it yet so thanks for sharing!

[Roga]

Except you can't rebuild to Wizard 1/Archivist 1/MT 10/Wildrunner 1 since Wizard 1/Archivist 1 can't qualify for the skill requirements. A Prestige class can't let you qualify for itself. The very next line from your quote helps show that.

For example, a 7th-level dwarf fighter couldn't trade a fighter level for a dwarven defender level, since his remaining fighter levels wouldn't allow him to meet the +7 base attack bonus requirement for that prestige class.
The BAB gained from levels in dwarven defender cannot be used to qualify for it. This is even despite the fact that the rebuild rules state that if you fail to qualify for a class you still retain base attack bonus.(And HP and Base saves, while losing everything else.)


characters must meet the requirements before they can take their first level of the class.

Thus if you rebuild away a level of Archivist, you can't have the skills to qualify for Mystic Theurge. The skills you gained from Mystic Theurge are lost, and couldn't help you qualify for itself even if they were retained.

[Anthrowhale]

The BAB gained from levels in dwarven defender cannot be used to qualify for it.


The Dwarven Defender example is a simple application of the rule I stated first. If a dwarven fighter 7 tries to rebuild to Fighter 6/Dwarven Defender 1, the "remaining class levels" are Fighter 6, which does not provide BAB+7 as required for Dwarven Defender.


Thus if you rebuild away a level of Archivist, you can't have the skills to qualify for Mystic Theurge.

The rule quoted from DMG does not operate, because no levels of MT are being taken in this rebuild. There is a relevant rule from PHBII.


If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels, he loses the benefit of any class features ... granted by the prestige class.

"Class Skills" are listed separately from "Class Features" in the MT description, and hence no MT skill ranks are lost even if access to MT is lost.

[Roga]

If you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge with Wizard 1/ Archivist 1, than you'll lose access to all Mystic Theurge levels and abilities. It states clearly that the only things you keep are BAB, Base Saves, and Hit Points. It also shows that what you gain from a prestige class cannot be used to qualify for it with a rebuild. The fact that Mystic theurge isn't new doesn't matter. You need to qualify for it solely with the levels taken before any level in the class. Even if you keep the skills, like you do BAB, they cannot be used to meet the entry requirements.

[Segev]

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work, since if you read it as giving you the ability to cast 2nd level spells, then you also immediately lose its benefit. ("When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above"...so either you're not able to cast 2nd level spells, or you are able, and then immediately are no longer able.)

It's worth noting that this is Troacctid's reading of it, but is not even consensus-agreed to be the accurate and valid rading. In fact, reading his interpretation as strictly as possible, you don't lose the ability to cast 2nd level spells. You have the ability, and therefore lose the "benefit described above" (the ability to cast it with a spellcraft check) and simply HAVE the ability (because the feat gives you a bonus 2nd level spell slot once you can otherwise cast 2nd level spells).

Given that you're playing at a table with a DM, strict RAW is only a guideline anyway; you'll want practical optimization. So ask your DM how he wants to handle it. It's pretty clear what RAI is insofar as how the feat works with itself; it remains up to your DM whether he considers it too cheesy for his table to use it for early entry into a PrC.

[Anthrowhale]

If you can't qualify for ...

Can you find rules to backup what you say? Or is this just your preferred house rule? I've cited two rules, while you cited an example which the first rule fully explains and an irrelevant rule from the DMG. If you can't find a rule to cite, then maybe there isn't an argument to be had.

[DarkSonic1337]

Okay, so I was incorrect about the retraining rules only allowing you to change a class to one that you would've qualified for at the time of taking the class. I guess that only applied to feats.

Without that restriction the rebuild thing totally works, because even though you are getting rid of the archivist level you still keep the Mystic Theurge levels, which keeps it's skills despite you not qualifying it with only Wizard 1/Archivist 1 (since skills, bab, and saves are things you explicitly keep under the rule). Mystic Theurge then self qualifies as you have the skill ranks needed and the spellcasting needed, and with those Mystic Theurge levels and the Wildrunner level you qualify for Arcane Hierophant

[Roga]

Can you find rules to backup what you say? Or is this just your preferred house rule? I've cited two rules, while you cited an example which the first rule fully explains and an irrelevant rule from the DMG. If you can't find a rule to cite, then maybe there isn't an argument to be had.

You and I are reading the same rules and reaching different meanings. I'm unable to point to anything but the same text, so you're welcome to count this as a win. If your DM allows it, power to you. I feel even if you feel RAW is on your side, I feel that RAI certainly is not. That's my 2cp, so I'm going to bow out.

[Aasimar]

You and I are reading the same rules and reaching different meanings. I'm unable to point to anything but the same text, so you're welcome to count this as a win. If your DM allows it, power to you. I feel even if you feel RAW is on your side, I feel that RAI certainly is not. That's my 2cp, so I'm going to bow out.

You don't honestly think anyone in this thread besides you (and now me) cares about rules as intended, do you?

If you ask me, you can take Mystic Theurge when you have an arcane class that can cast second level spells as part of their natural progression, Wizard 3, Sorcerer 4, Bard 4, etc. and also a class that can cast divine second level spells as part of their natural progression, Cleric 3, Druid 3, Oracle 4, etc. So if you are a Sorcerer4/Cleric3, your 8th level can be a mystic theurge. In this understanding, the optimal route is probably Cleric3/Wizard3.

No single spell replacements, no races with spell like abilities, no metamagic or ability replacements, no trading upwards for a higher level slot.

No GM I'd want to play with would allow any of these 'tricks', level 7 is the earliest level I'd allow anyone to take Mythic Theurge.

Of course, no optimizer in the history of optimizing would play mystic theurge, ever, under those conditions.

So, these guys aren't looking to play that sort of game, they're seeing who's best at beating the system.

[AvatarVecna]

You don't honestly think anyone in this thread besides you (and now me) cares about rules as intended, do you?

If you ask me, you can take Mystic Theurge when you have an arcane class that can cast second level spells as part of their natural progression, Wizard 3, Sorcerer 4, Bard 4, etc. and also a class that can cast divine second level spells as part of their natural progression, Cleric 3, Druid 3, Oracle 4, etc. So if you are a Sorcerer4/Cleric3, your 8th level can be a mystic theurge. In this understanding, the optimal route is probably Cleric3/Wizard3.

No single spell replacements, no races with spell like abilities, no metamagic or ability replacements, no trading upwards for a higher level slot.

No GM I'd want to play with would allow any of these 'tricks', level 7 is the earliest level I'd allow anyone to take Mythic Theurge.

Of course, no optimizer in the history of optimizing would play mystic theurge, ever, under those conditions.

So, these guys aren't looking to play that sort of game, they're seeing who's best at beating the system.

I just want to clarify: if we were starting at a higher level, I wouldn't mind playing a standard Mystic Theurge; I don't mind exchanging quality for quantity when my quality is already that ridiculously high. My problem is that, if I were to play this straight, I would be starting at level 5 in a theurge build, and I'm going to have a terrible time until about level 9-10 or so. Early entry lets me not suck so hard early on; even if I don't go full theurge, the end of my career will be comparable in both early entry and non, but the start of my career will be significantly less painful. There's a lot of things going on in this thread that I personally would never allow as a DM, or use as a player. I am currently waiting on the DM to get back to me on a couple things; if he ends up ruling in favor of no early entry, I'll probably end up going Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge X, which uses no early entry tricks and is fairly decent both at the start of the game and later on through the low middle levels.

[Aasimar]

Fair enough.

I totally understand that mystic theurge is built on a fundamental misunderstanding of how powerful it would be and the things a caster would value.

Lots of things in the d20 system are like that. Like long feat chains. "Ok, you're telling me I can have this pretty cool ability for a feat, but only if I first take 3 relatively worthless feats? You realize this will mean I can only get the feat I want at level 9 or so, and only then if I resign myself to getting no other feat that I want until then?"

But I digress.

Hope you have fun with your Theurge.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh yeah feat chains are terrible. I'm not even talking for casters, but for martials. Casters get enough goodies that I don't usually care about the feat taxes, but martials tend to need all the help they can get.

EDIT: And yeah, I hope I do as well.

[dextercorvia]

Of course, no optimizer in the history of optimizing would play mystic theurge, ever, under those conditions.

Not true. Of course, none would call it optimal to do so. However, I really enjoy casters (in any game or edition), and in order to do so in some games, I intentionally make a sub optimal main choice (such as X3/Y3/MT...) as a core tenet of the build then optimize from there. Other times I do it just for the challenge.

[Twurps]

Can you find rules to backup what you say? Or is this just your preferred house rule? I've cited two rules, while you cited an example which the first rule fully explains and an irrelevant rule from the DMG. If you can't find a rule to cite, then maybe there isn't an argument to be had.

Once you've cited the relevant part of the rules, there's no use in citing any more.

The added example is actually a pretty good one (And yes: this is an exption to most expamples) as it explicitly adresses what you are trying, and saying it can't be done. And all of that in the relevant part of the relevant book.

If you don't read that in the rules, that's fine, but it's still RAW as I read it.

[Anthrowhale]

Once you've cited the relevant part of the rules, there's no use in citing any more.

I cited the rules, explained how my suggestion works, and explained how the rules example works, yet you assert that my suggestion does not work. Something more is definitely needed for the discussion to progress. If there isn't a missing rule, can you find some flaw in my application of them?

Or maybe I can guess at the confusion? Perhaps you are misreading the rules to impose an order constraint where none actually exists? To illustrate, consider two examples:

Dwarven Fighter 7/Paladin 1 rebuilds a fighter level into a Dwarven Defender level.
Dwarven Paladin 1/Fighter 7 rebuilds a fighter level into a Dwarven Defender level.

The rules allow both, because the test for qualification is based on "remaining class levels" with both Fighter 6/Paladin 1 and Paladin 1/Fighter 6 qualifying for Dwarven Defender. RAW seems undisputable in this case.

But, if you imagine an order constraint, you'll disagree with the first one. Is that the issue?

[Twurps]

To illustrate, consider two examples:

Dwarven Fighter 7/Paladin 1 rebuilds a fighter level into a Dwarven Defender level.
Dwarven Paladin 1/Fighter 7 rebuilds a fighter level into a Dwarven Defender level.

The rules allow both, because the test for qualification is based on "remaining class levels" with both Fighter 6/Paladin 1 and Paladin 1/Fighter 6 qualifying for Dwarven Defender. RAW seems undisputable in this case.

But, if you imagine an order constraint, you'll disagree with the first one. Is that the issue?

I would indeed object to the first one. (Or at least pose that it is a 2 level rebuild. Step 1: 7th level fighter to paladin. Step 2: 8th level: paladin to Dwarven Defender, not important in this example, but very relevant if you replace the Paladin in the example with something not attainable at lvl6)

I'd appeal to logic as to why this must be so, but I realize D&D logic and RAW are not on the same plane of existence. I'd cite the rules, but all relevant rules have already been cited so that leaves me with this: If your reading is correct (Or at least my new found interpretation of it). This trick should be standard issue in most TO builds, as it would allow sublime chord from level 2 onwards just to name one. (you just have some serious rebuilding to do once you hit lvl 11 or so)

[Anthrowhale]

I would indeed object to the first one.

Again, I don't understand any plausible intrepretation of the rules which makes the first one illegal, and I'm skeptical that the designers wanted the first to be illegal. They explicitly state,
...some might even think of it as a form of cheating ... After your character goes through the ... rebuilding process, you might notice that he doesn't quite match the specs of a similar character built up to the same level by the normal method...

W.r.t. use in builds, rebuild is not very attractive in most instances for several reasons:

The rules in PHBII came out somewhat late in the release cycle, so they just aren't referred to as often.
There are often more direct approaches. A single level of bloodline from UA is a simpler approach achieving the same result.
Using the rules to get more power is more challenging than you might realize. Because of the second rule I cited, you must continue qualifying for all prestige classes taken, while in many TO contexts this is regarded as optional for most prestige classes. I usually ignore that personally and require qualification, but it's my choice rather than the rules as here.
Is a DM really going to take a break from a campaign for a rebuild quest? How often? It's not reliable.
Self-qualification is more delicate than you might realize. Sublime Chord does not provide access to 3rd level arcane spells. Sublime Chord + Sanctum Spell does. But what if you lose access to 3rd level spells for some reason? Suddenly you lose access to Sublime Chord class features which you can't then use to self-qualify. If someone wants to play games with Sublime Chord, there is a real chance they'll get burned.
At 20th level, which many builds target, you end up with the potential for 19 prestige class levels rather than a more normal 15(ish). In many cases the extra feat tax for the prestige class levels just isn't worth it.

[Segev]

I realize D&D logic and RAW are not on the same plane of existence.

Not an accurate statement.

"Logic" does not mean "sensible." It means that, starting from a set of accepted rules (called "premises"), you can construct via the rules of logic a conclusion.

What I believe you mean to say is that the D&D RAW are often not on the same plane of existence as common sense/verisimilitude. I would also dispute this claim, but it is a more subjective one and not inherently false on the face of it, so I won't bother arguing right now.

D&D RAW and the TO tricks that stem from them are quite logical. They work perfectly logically from the premises of the RAW. They're just silly when you expect them to emulate something resembling reality (even a reality with magic).

[The Vagabond]

To be frank, the only FOOLPROOF RAW method I know of is Heighten Spell Versatile Spellcaster. Use Versatile Spellcaster to gain a second level spell slot, Heighten it to be able to cast second level spells. Meaning you can either go (Sorcerer/Bard/Spontaneous spellcasting class) 1/Wizard 1/Archavist 1. That's how it looks.

[Twurps]

Again, I don't understand any plausible intrepretation of the rules which makes the first one illegal, and I'm skeptical that the designers wanted the first to be illegal. .....
(emphasis mine)

And there's where we go from RAW to RAI. Having read the relevant sections multiple times over today however, I must admit my own reading of it isn't without a good deal of RAI as well. (influenced by general 'leveling up' rules and 'feat retraining' rules, both of which I know are not relevant..)
So you've at least convinced me it's ambiguous. Thanks for that.


Not an accurate statement.

"Logic" does not mean "sensible." It means that, starting from a set of accepted rules (called "premises"), you can construct via the rules of logic a conclusion.

What I believe you mean to say is that the D&D RAW are often not on the same plane of existence as common sense/verisimilitude. I would also dispute this claim, but it is a more subjective one and not inherently false on the face of it, so I won't bother arguing right now.

D&D RAW and the TO tricks that stem from them are quite logical. They work perfectly logically from the premises of the RAW. They're just silly when you expect them to emulate something resembling reality (even a reality with magic).

Very True, thats what I meant. It's an important distintion too, as applying logic to the RAW is actually what makes building Characters (both TO and PO) so much fun.

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks for that.

You're welcome. It is an occasionally fun rule to play with.

[AvatarVecna]

Welp, the DM has (fairly reasonably) said "nope nope nope that never ends well", and nixed the early entry tricks, so it's looking like Wizard/Ur-Priest is the way I'm going here. Thanks for your help everyone; I actually was directed to a few new early entry tricks I haven't seen before, so thanks!

[dextercorvia]

A straight classed Archivist can mimic a Theurge fairly well.