Does Alter Self get rid of incorporeality?

[Jack_Simth]

Hey all,

Pathfinder-specific: Suppose a Ghost (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ghost) Sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer) casts Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self) to turn into a Dwarf. Is the now dwarf incorporeal, or not?

[Necroticplague]

It doesn't say you lose any of your own abilities, so you would keep the incorporeability.

[Jack_Simth]

Cool. So a ghost with Alter Self and an Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) set to ghost touch... nifty!

[Yanisa]

It doesn't say you lose any of your own abilities, so you would keep the incorporeability.

Alter Self is a polymorph spell and all polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation) spells have the following rule:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You could argue, but I do see ghost as (part of) the original form and incorporeability as a ability that depends on that form. Templates are less clear cut on the whole issue, because PC don't have templates normally so the rules aren't dealing with that, so I just refer to the second-last line, check with your DM.

[Milo v3]

Alter Self is a polymorph spell and all polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation) spells have the following rule:


You could argue, but I do see ghost as (part of) the original form and incorporeability as a ability that depends on that form. Templates are less clear cut on the whole issue, because PC don't have templates normally so the rules aren't dealing with that, so I just refer to the second-last line, check with your DM.

But incorporeality isn't an ability, it's a subtype.

[The Vagabond]

But incorporeality isn't an ability, it's a subtype.
Well, it's TECHNICALLY a supernatural ability granted by a subtype. I honestly have no idea which it is to be considered for Polymorph spells- I'd weigh in that they still remain corporeal, because it doesn't actually change your subtype.

[Ettina]

Your creature type and subtype are not affected by Alter Self. You still have the 'incorporeal' subtype, which grants incorporeality.

[Yanisa]

Your creature type and subtype are not affected by Alter Self. You still have the 'incorporeal' subtype, which grants incorporeality.

Incorporeal is depended on your body (or lack of body), which is your form, which you lose during alter self.

Another reading is that you cannot polymorph into a templated version of a creature. If you use alter self to turn into a gnome, you cannot turn into a ghost gnome. So you must drop the template for the duration of the spell.

But yeah, the rules won't give us an answer. They assume the only things on the world that use polymorph are small or medium sized humanoids (without a template).

[Necroticplague]

Incorporeal is depended on your body (or lack of body), which is your form, which you lose during alter self. Incorporeal is dependent on your incorporeal subtype, which you keep while using Alter Self (as the spell does not say you lose it).


Another reading is that you cannot polymorph into a templated version of a creature. If you use alter self to turn into a gnome, you cannot turn into a ghost gnome. So you must drop the template for the duration of the spell. You aren't Alter Selfing into a Ghost Gnome, you're polymorphing into a gnome and keeping your incorporeal subtype, which happens to include being incorporeal as a benefit.


But yeah, the rules won't give us an answer. They assume the only things on the world that use polymorph are small or medium sized humanoids (without a template).
The rules do give us an answer.It's just kinda weird, depending on your point of view.

[Yanisa]

Incorporeal is dependent on your incorporeal subtype, which you keep while using Alter Self (as the spell does not say you lose it).

You aren't Alter Selfing into a Ghost Gnome, you're polymorphing into a gnome and keeping your incorporeal subtype, which happens to include being incorporeal as a benefit.


The rules do give us an answer.It's just kinda weird, depending on your point of view.
Abilities granted by subtype are still depended on form. The dwarf subtype gives dark vision, an ability that is specifically mentioned to be traded out when polymorphed.

[Milo v3]

Abilities granted by subtype are still depended on form. The dwarf subtype gives dark vision, an ability that is specifically mentioned to be traded out when polymorphed.

What? Where does it say that?

[Jack_Simth]

What? Where does it say that?Hmm... it specifies Darkvision, but doesn't explictly say anything about the dwarf subtype as part of the Transmutation itself. Part of the Polymorph Subschool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph):
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.(emphasis added)

And yes, the Dwarf Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-dwarf) explicitly grants Darkvision-60 (and that's all the subtype grants, other than interactions with things that specify 'dwarf').

The Polymorph Subschool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph) doesn't seem to mention anything about types or subtypes changing at all, nor does Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self). Hmm.

[Yanisa]

Hmm... it specifies Darkvision, but doesn't explictly say anything about the dwarf subtype as part of the Transmutation itself. Part of the Polymorph Subschool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph):(emphasis added)

And yes, the Dwarf Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-dwarf) explicitly grants Darkvision-60 (and that's all the subtype grants, other than interactions with things that specify 'dwarf').

The Polymorph Subschool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph) doesn't seem to mention anything about types or subtypes changing at all, nor does Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self). Hmm.

Yeah, when dealing with polymorph you keep your original type and subtype. A human druid wildshaping into a bear cannot benefit from Animal Growth, but can get Enlarge Person.

But I disagree that abilities that are granted by type and subtype are kept when polymorphed. A lot of these abilities do depends form, that was my point with the dwarf example.
Incorpereal is a odder case, because it isn't really depending on your form, but still I see it as part of your form. But again, even the rules throw their hands up and say that the DM makes the final judgment call.

To point out an argument against my own case. Say you are a vampire, and you want to disguise yourself as a common zombie. Taking this type and subtype too far means the vampire will loose undead traits when polymorphed into an undead. After all undead traits are based on your form. And an vampire changing into another creature type makes just as many problems. When he casts Alter Self to change into a human, does he get a con score?

[Crake]

Yeah, when dealing with polymorph you keep your original type and subtype. A human druid wildshaping into a bear cannot benefit from Animal Growth, but can get Enlarge Person.

But I disagree that abilities that are granted by type and subtype are kept when polymorphed. A lot of these abilities do depends form, that was my point with the dwarf example.
Incorpereal is a odder case, because it isn't really depending on your form, but still I see it as part of your form. But again, even the rules throw their hands up and say that the DM makes the final judgment call.

To point out an argument against my own case. Say you are a vampire, and you want to disguise yourself as a common zombie. Taking this type and subtype too far means the vampire will loose undead traits when polymorphed into an undead. After all undead traits are based on your form. And an vampire changing into another creature type makes just as many problems. When he casts Alter Self to change into a human, does he get a con score?

I think you're mixing up spells and abilities. The polymorph spell very much does give the type and subtype of the creature you're turning into. Alter self on the other hand limits your forms to creatures of the same type, so a vampire could not actually alter self into a human, because humanoid and undead are different types. You may be confusing alter self, the spell, and the alternate form special ability, which is what druid's wild shape is based on.

Officially, with alter self, you would remain incorporeal, however, a ghost is an undead, and as such, it could not actually alter self into a gnome, because gnomes are humanoids, so that part of the argument is moot. Finally, people need to remember that ghosts are not infact incorporeal, they are very much corporeal... on the ethereal plane. They can use their manifest ability to appear incorporeally on the material plane, but the second they alter self, they would lose their ability to manifest and merely be a corporeal creature on the ethereal plane.

A better example would be say, a joystealer that used alter self to turn into a pixie or the like. Since alter self does not change type or subtype, they would remain as an incorporeal pixie, in addition to the changes made by alter self.

[Yanisa]

I think you're mixing up spells and abilities. The polymorph spell very much does give the type and subtype of the creature you're turning into. Alter self on the other hand limits your forms to creatures of the same type, so a vampire could not actually alter self into a human, because humanoid and undead are different types. You may be confusing alter self, the spell, and the alternate form special ability, which is what druid's wild shape is based on.

Officially, with alter self, you would remain incorporeal, however, a ghost is an undead, and as such, it could not actually alter self into a gnome, because gnomes are humanoids, so that part of the argument is moot. Finally, people need to remember that ghosts are not infact incorporeal, they are very much corporeal... on the ethereal plane. They can use their manifest ability to appear incorporeally on the material plane, but the second they alter self, they would lose their ability to manifest and merely be a corporeal creature on the ethereal plane.

A better example would be say, a joystealer that used alter self to turn into a pixie or the like. Since alter self does not change type or subtype, they would remain as an incorporeal pixie, in addition to the changes made by alter self.

You might be mixing up 3.5 and pathfinder.

Alter Self in pathfinder:

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type.

Yes vampires can alter self into gnomes, so can ghosts, dragons and oozes.

[Segev]

As has been stated, "incorporeal" is a subtype. If you cast a spell that does not change your subtype, you remain incorporeal. If you cast a spell that does, you become corporeal.

An interesting point regarding ghosts, corporeality, and the ethereal plane has been raised, however: it would seem that, yes, casting alter self or polymorph would render you corporeal and on the ethereal plane, unable to manifest at all until the spell wore off.

Of course, nothing stops ghosts from using plane shift or other means to come to the material plane...one wonders what becomes of their "manifest" ability when they do so.

(Heck, what happens to ghosts on the astral, elemental, or outer planes?)

[Jack_Simth]

An interesting point regarding ghosts, corporeality, and the ethereal plane has been raised, however: it would seem that, yes, casting alter self or polymorph would render you corporeal and on the ethereal plane, unable to manifest at all until the spell wore off.Pathfinder Ghosts do not have that dual nature, and are merely incorporeal.

[Yanisa]

As has been stated, "incorporeal" is a subtype. If you cast a spell that does not change your subtype, you remain incorporeal. If you cast a spell that does, you become corporeal.

As has been stated, subtypes can give abilities that are depended on form, which are lost during any polymorph spell. Whether incorporeal is one of them is not addresses in the rules.